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Zorn List Digest        Sunday, April 12 1998        Volume 02 : Number 324



In this issue:
-
       Re: Mezz, a great jewish musician...
       Re: Concrete jazz (2) (Was: Varese)
       Re: stockhausen
       Re: Blade Runner was (*UN*Bargain Bins)
       Re: Blade Runner was (*UN*Bargain Bins)
       Re: Concrete jazz (2) (Was: Varese)
       Re: Bladerunner
       Re: Bladerunner
       Re: stockhausen
       Re: stockhausen
       Re: CD and artist recommendations
       Re: Stockhausen
       Cliff Cultreri
       Re: Stockhausen
       Re: Stockhausen
       Circle Maker errors
       Re: experimentation
       IMPORTANT zorn-list ANNOUNCEMENT
       Re: Quotes
       Re: CD and artist recommendations

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:08:50 +1000 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Mezz, a great jewish musician...

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, George Grella wrote:

> James Douglas Knox writes:
>
> > Something that interested me was the way Mezzrow identified so strongly
> > with Afro-Americans. Like: angling to be in the *black* cell-block at
> > Riker's Island(?). Which is maybe a little wierd, but definitely
> > interesting in terms of his near-complete alientation from a WASP
> > hegemony.
>
> If you're keeping Mezz in the context of his life, which is jazz, what
> WASP hegemony are you talking about?  I don't know of any such thing in
> jazz, quite the opposite, actually [when was it ever WASP music?],
> especially in the pre-WWII years.

Have you actually read his book? If so, you'd "know" that his initial
attraction to jazz was that it was an expression of Afro-american
culture; and as such, a negation of the Amerikkka's dominant
WASP culture...

Like: is that clear enough for you, dopey? Mezzrow may have devoted much
of his life to music, but this choice and the specific choice of the kind
of music he played was informed by a social context: the experience of a
white, jewish, middle-class male in a society that still had (and has?) a
large measure of tacit (and maybe more?) racism towards such a person...

Do I need to make this any clearer for you?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:07:15 +1000 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Concrete jazz (2) (Was: Varese)

On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Allen Gittelson wrote:

> If you are interested further in written material about him, I suggest
> you visit http://www.mala.bc.ca/~mcneil/varese.htm or your local library
> or book store.  There are quite a few interesting reads to be had.  If
> you read all that is written, you of course are less likely to take the
> "quotes" out of context.

I seem to recall that Henry Miller devoted a chapter of "The
Air-Conditioned Nightmare" to Varese. Was it here (I can't remember) that
I read about Charlie Parker's idolisation of Varese? After Parker died,
his widow sought out Varese, and told him the story: he and Parker both
lived in the East Village, and Varese was prone to taking long strolls
about the streets. And apparently Parker made a habit of following at a
distance, too shy to actually speak to his hero.

BTW: found a copy of Mimoraglu's "Sing Me A Song Of Songmy" in a local
used- record store: put a hold on it until the government (yes: they've
finally agreed to fund another year of my "education") springs with my
Austudy backpay - should be this week. No sign of 'The Tomb of Edgar Allan
Poe', but many reworkings of studio jazz sessions. Will post details after
I pick it up (hopefully this week - fingers crossed!)...



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:07:51
From: Jesse Simon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stockhausen

At 02:50 PM 4/12/98 +1000, Julian wrote:

>Surely there's a lot of second hand lps floating around though...

You'd think.

But unfortunately the monetary value of Stockhausen records is surprizingly
well known. The few that I've seen (mostly on Deutsche Grammophon) have
gone for $30 and up.

Everything about Stockhausen is prohibitively expensive.

jesse


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 08:56:59 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner was (*UN*Bargain Bins)

On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Craig Rath wrote:

>Me personally is the unofficial soundtrack to Blade Runner by Vangelis for
>which I paid $54.00.  I look back and shake my head once in a while, but
>it's still a great disc, and if I was drunk I'd probably do it again.

James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]> replied:

>>You wuz gypped, man - unless I'm very much mistaken, this (perfectly
>>legitimate and official) soundtrack is quite available at a regular price.

Craig Rath <[e-mail]> again:

>>>You might think that, but you'd be wrong.  Shortly after the release I
>>>bought, Vangelis finally released his "official" version of the soundtrack
>>>(I think because he realized the unofficial one was going for unheard of
>>>prices) but his version has less and much shorter versions of the best
>>>songs, most noticeably "Blade Runner Blues", which is probably one of the
>>>best things Vangelis has ever done.  I think the official version is about
>>>7 minutes long, while the unofficial version has the full 10.5 minute
>>>version.  I'm not saying it wasn't still an extravagant purchase, just that
>>>the "official" release doesn't really touch what you get with the
>>>"unofficial" version.

Which release do you have?  There were three "unofficial" releases on CD
[all limited, one is a 2CD (very limited) which is the music for the entire
Director's Cut], none of which were licenced for public sale.  The two
single
discs are a bit different ... each has a track (or two?) that the other
doesn't have, but both have nearly all the "songs" in the film.  Both also
have different artwork and photos.  The first came out on LP in 1982, and on
CD in 1993.  It's on Off World Music and it goes for _a lot_ more than $54!!
I'd say you were lucky.  The second is on Gongo Music and came out in 1995.
It either _is_ a Romanian bootleg (all the text is in Romanian) or someone
_meant_ it look this way.  I paid $30 for my copy on Gongo, and that was
right when it came out.

The official version (1994 WB) does have shorter versions of some of the
pieces, and doesn't have all the music in the film.  As a "bonus" though,
it's got some tracks that weren't in the film at all which Vangelis added
just for this release.

There is also an "archival" (ridiculously) limited CD release entitled
"Memoires 5" (1997) that is a supplement to Vangelis' official release.
The music on it (various "themes" that were cut from the official release)
is not found anywhere else.

Oh yeah ... there is yet another version on CD (forgettable, IMO) which
has (the major) pieces performed by an orchestra (forget which).  How could
someone even think of trying to interpret Vangelis' electronic pieces
with a live orchestra?  Big mistake if you ask me.

Definitely agree about "Blade Runner Blues" being one of
Vangelis' best pieces ...


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:24:29 -0500
From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Blade Runner was (*UN*Bargain Bins)

At 08:56 AM 4/12/98 -0400, Patrick Carey wrote:
>
>Which release do you have?

The "Off World Music" version on CD from '93.


>one is a 2CD (very limited) which is the music for the entire
>Director's Cut], none of which were licenced for public sale.

Never even heard of this one.  Sounds rather interesting.  I assume someone
probably recorded the music tracks from the laserdisc version of the movie
or something?


>The second is on Gongo Music and came out in 1995.
>It either _is_ a Romanian bootleg (all the text is in Romanian) or someone
>_meant_ it look this way.  I paid $30 for my copy on Gongo, and that was
>right when it came out.
>

I'll have to keep my eyes open for it.


>The official version (1994 WB) does have shorter versions of some of the
>pieces, and doesn't have all the music in the film.  As a "bonus" though,
>it's got some tracks that weren't in the film at all which Vangelis added
>just for this release.
>

I almost bought this when it came out as well, and now wish I had since
it's not real easy to find.


>
>Oh yeah ... there is yet another version on CD (forgettable, IMO) which
>has (the major) pieces performed by an orchestra (forget which).

The New American Orchestra.


>How could
>someone even think of trying to interpret Vangelis' electronic pieces
>with a live orchestra?  Big mistake if you ask me.
>

If I remember correctly, what happened here was that Vangelis actually
released a version of the soundtrack on vinyl shortly after the movie came
out, but it was recalled for some legal or artistic reasons (one story is
that he was pissed at Ridley Scott for using other music in the final film,
which supposedly violated the contract).  If you notice on the original
version of the movie it says "Original Soundtrack by Vangelis available"
during the credits.  When the deal fell through, the orchestral version was
released in an attempt to appease the pissed off fans, which probably just
pissed them off even more.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:46:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Concrete jazz (2) (Was: Varese)

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, James Douglas Knox wrote:

>
. Was it here (I can't remember) that
> I read about Charlie Parker's idolisation of Varese? After Parker died,
> his widow sought out Varese, and told him the story: he and Parker both
> lived in the East Village, and Varese was prone to taking long strolls
> about the streets. And apparently Parker made a habit of following at a
> distance, too shy to actually speak to his hero.
>
>
I'm not too sure about that. It seems to me that Bird approached Varese
with the idea of studying with him since he (Parker) had decided that he
had done all he could with blues-based music and wanted to expand his
compositional palate. Unfortunately it never got beyond the discussion stage.


As an aside, maybe that wasn't too much of a bad thing. Gunther
Schuller gave Ornette Coleman some compositional "lessons" in the early
1960s. When, after studying music and finding out that nearly every
concept he had was "wrong" Coleman literally rushed to the bathroom and
threw up. He didn't take any other lessons, not wanting to "ruin" what he
had already figured out by himself.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:02:51 EDT
From: Tag Yr It <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bladerunner

Please......spare me the impending Vangelis thread.....

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:33:53
From: Jesse Simon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bladerunner

Tag Yr It wrote:
>Please......spare me the impending Vangelis thread.....

So long as we don't get a _Jon and Vangelis_ thread everything should be o.k.
(really. what were they thinking?)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:30:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stockhausen

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, stephen drury wrote:

> A lot of the old recordings are now property of Karlheinz himself, and his
> reissues, while gorgeously done, are expensive -- and you have to buy them
> from the man himself, unless you go to a certain clothing/CD store in Koln
> which carries them.

So how would those of us outside of Koln do this?  Can anyone provide a
contact address, pricing info, that sort of thing?

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:09:37 -0700
From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: stockhausen

Christopher Hamilton wrote:

> > A lot of the old recordings are now property of Karlheinz himself, and his
> > reissues, while gorgeously done, are expensive -- and you have to buy them
> > from the man himself, unless you go to a certain clothing/CD store in Koln
> > which carries them.
>
> So how would those of us outside of Koln do this?  Can anyone provide a
> contact address, pricing info, that sort of thing?

Stockhausen-Verlag
Kettenberg 15
51515 Kurten
Germany

the pricing starts at $28 for single CDs, some are more depending on the size of the
booklet, etc. He will send you a free catalog.

also check this website: http://www.jimstonebraker.com/stockhausen.html
it seems to be somewhat official, with the inside scoop on recent stuff.

my recommendations for where to start with Stockhausen are:

- -Gruppen/Carre (large scale orchestral stuff)
- -Kontrapunkte/Zeitmasze/Adieu (chamber works)
- -Gesang der Jungling/Kontakte (electronic music)
- -Aus Den Sieben Tagen (intuitive music)
- --



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:12:30 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CD and artist recommendations

R=E9mi Bissonnette wrote:

> And where to start with Anthony Braxton?  I saw Willisau on quite a few=
 top
> 20 lists and I'll probably look for it real soon, but other than that o=
ne
> what is his best composed material, and conversely his best free improv=
ised
> material?

I just got his first Ghost Trance Music CD, Four Compositions=20
(Quartet) 1995, and rather like it. However, I've only run across one
other person who likes it (it's very... um.... schematic) and it bears
little relation to anything else of his I've ever heard.
- --=20
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D [e-mail] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D H=
uman Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? =3D <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> =3D ecto \|=
|
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Comma: Voices of New=
 Music \|



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:15:11 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen

Paul Chavez wrote:

> I'm curious to know if anyone can recommend a good starting point for
> Stockhausen.  I've seen the recent Ecstatic Peace release, but I'd like
> to know if there is something else I should check out first.

I'm a big fan of his Stimmung and Aus den Sieben Tagen. A lot of his
best stuff, however, is out of print except for the releases on his own
label which, at prices like $40 for a single disc, are pretty much
beyond consideration.
- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:18:24 +0200
From: [e-mail] (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Cliff Cultreri

 Does anybody have ANY info on Cliff Cultreri? What he's doing now, if he
 recorded anything besides the Material stuff ...

 Kind regards,
 - Chris.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:50:15 EDT
From: Tag Yr It <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen

Does anyone know definitely if the DGG titles were ever issued on DGG CD's?

Thanks,

Dale.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:02:05 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stockhausen

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:50:15 EDT  Tag Yr It wrote:
>
> Does anyone know definitely if the DGG titles were ever issued on DGG CD's?

I don't remember seing any...

In fact, the only reissue that I know is EXOTICA by Mauricio Kagel (which
means that there is still some hope...). And it was not a long time ago. From
what I read, Stockhausen put out different versions of most of his
compositions (although I have the feeling that STUDIES I & II and GESANG DER
JUNGLINGE are the same :-).

    Patrice.

PS: Stephen Drury not commenting on the available versions on MANTRA? I
personally miss the original one (with Alfons and Alois Kontarsky).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:13:32 +0000
From: "Charles Gillett" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Circle Maker errors

Someone mentioned noticing something wrong with "The Circle Maker"
a while ago, but I can't remember what s/he said and I can't find
the digest that message is in.

The liner notes for the first disc, "Issachar," list "Bikkurim" as
track 12 and "Idalah-Abal" as track 13.  However, track 12 is actually
"Elilah," and track 13 is actually "Meholalot."  Hopefully further
listening won't reveal more mistakes.

I have no way of confirming the names of the tunes which haven't
been done by the regular Masada quartet, of course, so we'll just
have to take those on faith.

Aha!  The Tzadik web page has the correct titles for the tracks.  I
just checked.  None of the other track names have been changed.  I
suppose I could edit the message, but this way you get to share in
the discovery with me.

Actually, they call track 12 "Elijah," but according to Masada 8/Het
it's "Elilah."


- -- Charles


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:08:49 -0400
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: experimentation

At 04:32 PM 4/11/98 +1000, James Douglas Knox wrote:

>In science, an experiment is designed to test yr hyposthesis: but the
>point is - if your hypothesis is disproven, that's not neccesarily a bad
>thing. It's (maybe) a Cagean thing, like the Buddhist axiom says:
>     "Honour your mistake - it is a hidden intention".
>Y'know, like Fleming (and who was his collaborator?) discovers antibiotics
>or something...No, not really.
>
>But for an experiment to be valid, you have to factor in random factors,
>that you can't initially predict. Designing the *process*, and executing
>the design, become as important as the outcome.

Yes, we can (and have learned) a lot from our mistakes and hopefully we can
learn from them.  My point was just that I didn't see the connection
between this terminology in the scienfitic field and how it carried over to
a label for music- it seems to be pretty different.

'the first sociological laboratory is your own life'- Archie Shepp

Jason


Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]

http://www.furious.com/perfect

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:27:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: IMPORTANT zorn-list ANNOUNCEMENT

From now on, when sending messages to the zorn list
only use the address

    [e-mail]

*** Please change your email address books now. ***

Our generous hosts at xmission have now dedicated
an entire machine to managing their mailing lists,
the zorn-list included.

thanks,
mike rizzi
zorn-list-owner




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:50:31 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Quotes

Terence Sin wrote:

> A friend recently forwarded me some quotes of composers denigrating one
> another [snip]

You should definitely see Slonimsky's "Lexicon of Musical Invective."  The
whole thing's like that.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:28:04 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CD and artist recommendations

Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> I'll leave the other folks to other people, but in terms of Cecil Taylor,
> the problem, is I haven't heard a bad record he's made (with the
> possible exception of the Pablo duets with Mary Lou Williams, which are a
> bit diffuse).

My absolute favorite Cecil Taylor actually doesn't have any piano on it:
it's "Chiampas", a full disc of sound poetry with percussion. The
verbal snippets on "In Fluorescence" only begin to hint at its
brilliance. I believe it's on Leo.
- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #324
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