home
***
CD-ROM
|
disk
|
FTP
|
other
***
search
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
pub
/
lists
/
zorn-list
/
archive
/
v02.n318
< prev
next >
Wrap
Internet Message Format
|
1998-04-08
|
20KB
From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #318
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Thursday, April 9 1998 Volume 02 : Number 318
In this issue:
-
Re: experimentation
wynton marsalis
Re: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
Re: wynton marsalis
Re: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
Re:wynton marsalis
Re: Steve Reich boxset
Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
Re: wynton marsalis
re: the residents
Re[3]: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
Music Scores
Re: Music Scores
Cynical Hysterie Hour
Re: Music Scores
Re: Movie Scores (was Music Scores)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:11:37 -0400
From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfect-sound@furious.com>
Subject: Re: experimentation
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:38:09 -0700 (PDT) "Cappy D'Angelo" said:
> By definition, experimentation suggests that the initiator of the process
> cannot predict the end result - there is uncertainty or tentativeness.
> Composers such as Varese (or Stravinsky, or Zorn with respect to his
> "composed" music) are masters of their trade in part because they can
> accurately predict the result when they notate a composition. Where is
> the experiment? Music can be innovative, eclectic, and unpredictable
> (to the listener) without being experimental.
>
Actually this is a very good point. Yes, a lot of the composers you mentioned do use
scores so where the output/music is determined.
It depends how exact you want to get with your definition of 'experimental.' When
it's done in the scientific community, you start with a hypothesis that says 'this
will happen' or 'this won't happen'- it's something you're trying to prove or
disprove. Usually, if you don't get the results you want, you might try it again or
try another tact. There isn't a lot of guess work here- you're looking for a certain
result so you're working within determined parameters.
Right, we're talking about music and not science but how did the word 'experimental'
get carried over to the music then? It didn't have its origins in music so what were
people originally thinking when they applied this tag to music? Cage's scores left a
lot of things open to chance so maybe you could say that his 'hypotheses' were 'is
the result of these chance happenings good music?' Then again, when a composer
creates innovative music even with a set score, it's blazing some kind of new path
and taking some kind of chance on acceptance or rejection.
No final answers here just some more good questions...
Jason
- --
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
perfect-sound@furious.com
http://www.furious.com/perfect
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 01:10:20 +1000
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: wynton marsalis
If I'm not mistaken, some people on this list were saying a while ago how
much they hated Wynton. I personally have only heard the slightest little
bit and couldn't make judgements from that, but one of my friends thinks
he's some sort of genius or something. Granted he's not as well-equipped
with music knowledge as we are on this list, but I was wondering how it
could be that there could be so much of a difference in opinion. So, those
who were talking about Wynton a while ago, could you explain to me what it
was that you disliked about him?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 08:32:38 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
Yves Dewulf writes:
> I see both Electric Counterpoint en New York Counterpoint are on the
> list but there was at least one other Counterpoint, I
> think it was called Vermont Counterpoint (for clarinets, if I'm
> remembering well).
>
It is "Vermont Counterpoint," but it's for a flute soloist [who has
previously overdubbed parts on tape]. It has been recorded on ECM, but
I don't think the CD currently is in print - I've actually been looking
for it for a few years now, ever since a friend performed the piece in
recital.
Another important piece on ECM, not in the box set, is the "Octet." I
think this one is still available, fortunately.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:37:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: wynton marsalis
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Julian wrote:
> If I'm not mistaken, some people on this list were saying a while ago how
> much they hated Wynton. I personally have only heard the slightest little
> bit and couldn't make judgements from that, but one of my friends thinks
> he's some sort of genius or something. Granted he's not as well-equipped
> with music knowledge as we are on this list, but I was wondering how it
> could be that there could be so much of a difference in opinion. So, those
> who were talking about Wynton a while ago, could you explain to me what it
> was that you disliked about him?
I don't know that he's any sort of a genius. He is a rather good trumpeter
(to my ears) in the areas he specializes in, and a competent composer. He
sticks to conservative genres, which is OK, even if I don't often tend to
choose to listen to him much. The first CD I ever bought (after a few
thousand records) was one of his, and I didn't regret it.
The problem with him is not what he plays so much as what he says. He
seems to have decided that the stuff he plays (tonal,
harmonically-structured jazz, hewing closely to its traditions as
established before, say, 1965) is the ultimate form of music, and that
everything that has followed is worthless. He has repeatedly derided rock,
funk, and free playing.
This is true of many other musicians too, most of whom are a whole lot
older than him. He, however, has been granted a bully pulpit due to shrewd
marketing (and a lot of hard work), so his ideas have locked in the ears
of a lot of people and made it more difficult for them to expand their
horizons to much of the music in which this list specializes.
There are more insidious things out there (such as the entire smooth jazz
thing, featuring Kenny G and his Wonder Bread school of music), but Wynton
is the most visible symbol of repressive conservatism in jazz, and thus
the most accessible target for the venom of those who disagree.
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:46:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, George Grella wrote:
> It is "Vermont Counterpoint," but it's for a flute soloist [who has
> previously overdubbed parts on tape]. It has been recorded on ECM, but
> I don't think the CD currently is in print - I've actually been looking
> for it for a few years now, ever since a friend performed the piece in
> recital.
I don't know of an CM recording, but Ransom Wilson's LP containing it was
on Angel/EMI.
I haven't seen a performance of that piece, but I saw Pat Metheny perform
Electric Counterpoint and found the live performance kinda pointless. I
could see doing a version with all the parts live, or listening to the
all-recorded record. However, there didn't seem to be much of a reason
that that one part which was done live was singled out from all the
others, and the live performance struck me as a poor compromise with the
music (though it was well played).
I'd love to see a large guitar ensemble play that (possibly followed by
some Glenn Branca!).
- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:28:23 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Re:wynton marsalis
Not knowing anything about Wynton or horn playing, but willing to comment
anyway:
I think what we've got here is the Music School vs. the Music Lover. I've
noticed a lot
of music school people, who are very interested in learning a trade, ie: playing
an intstrument,
are NOT interested in expanding their musical experiences. When they say
someone like Wynton is a genius,
it probably has everything to do with excellent technique and nothing to do with
the reasons music
lovers tend to listen to music: honesty, emotion, new ideas, interesting
techniques, great tunes, etc.
It's like the guitar-heads who love Steve Vai, who makes the most sterile
records imaginable.
Yeah, he's a fine guitar player, maybe even a genius with the guitar, but what's
he DOING
with that playing ability? Yawn.
Maybe that's not what's going on at all.
But it's something I've noticed.
PeterR
____________________Reply Separator____________________
Subject: wynton marsalis
Author: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
Date: 04/09/1998 10:10 AM
If I'm not mistaken, some people on this list were saying a while ago how
much they hated Wynton. I personally have only heard the slightest little
bit and couldn't make judgements from that, but one of my friends thinks
he's some sort of genius or something. Granted he's not as well-equipped
with music knowledge as we are on this list, but I was wondering how it
could be that there could be so much of a difference in opinion. So, those
who were talking about Wynton a while ago, could you explain to me what it
was that you disliked about him?
- -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 09:56:14 -0800
From: George Grella <george_grella@pop3.decisionanalytics.com>
Subject: Re: Steve Reich boxset
Joseph S. Zitt writes:
> I don't know of an CM recording, but Ransom Wilson's LP containing it was
> on Angel/EMI.
>
> I haven't seen a performance of that piece, but I saw Pat Metheny perform
> Electric Counterpoint and found the live performance kinda pointless. I
> could see doing a version with all the parts live, or listening to the
> all-recorded record. However, there didn't seem to be much of a reason
> that that one part which was done live was singled out from all the
> others, and the live performance struck me as a poor compromise with the
> music (though it was well played).
I believe that EMI recording is also out of print; there's a John Adams
piece on it as well, Shaker Loops or Phrygian Gates, I can't remember.
The performance of Vermont Counterpoint was good and interesting. The
piece calls for Flute, Bass Flute and Piccolo. All those instruments
are on the prerecorded tape and are also played live by the performer.
The "solo" part calls for a different member of the flute family at
different points in the piece, so there's the quality of the performer
following lines as they modulate through different voices. Very
satisfying.
There's another "version" of the Electric Counterpoint, Acoustic
Counterpoint, which I've seen performed by a guitar ensemble, which
again is a satisfying live piece.
gg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 13:31:51 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
>I believe that EMI recording is also out of print; there's a John Adams
>piece on it as well, Shaker Loops or Phrygian Gates, I can't remember.
I think you're thinking of the Phillips release with Reich's
'Variations for String Orchestra' (a rearranging of 'Octet') and
'Shaker Loops'.
The Angel/EMI Ransom Wilson release had 'Vermont Counterpoint', Glass'
'Facades' (a pretty enough piece) and a rather horrendous work by
Frank (?) Becker called 'Stonehenge'. Um, isn't it safe to say that, a
priori, ANY piece called 'Stonehenge' is going to be awful?
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:44:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: wynton marsalis
I always thought that Wynton Kelly was one of the best pianists Miles
Davis ever employed. He could swing like Red Garland and do the softer
stuff like Bill Evans. And he (and Jimmy Cobb and Paul Chambers) also did
some great work with Wes Montgomery on some live sessions in the 1960s. So
why would we hate Wynton?
Oh it's W. Marsalis you're talking about. Isn't he some
classical music administrator looking for a set repretoire that can only
be played in well-appointed halls? What does he have to do with free
improvisation?
Ken Waxman
cj649@torfree.net
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Julian wrote:
> If I'm not mistaken, some people on this list were saying a while ago how
> much they hated Wynton. I personally have only heard the slightest little
> bit and couldn't make judgements from that, but one of my friends thinks
> he's some sort of genius or something. Granted he's not as well-equipped
> with music knowledge as we are on this list, but I was wondering how it
> could be that there could be so much of a difference in opinion. So, those
> who were talking about Wynton a while ago, could you explain to me what it
> was that you disliked about him?
>
>
> -
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 13:51:01 -0400
From: Pierre Toussaint <m223024@er.uqam.ca>
Subject: re: the residents
"Constantinople" is either on "Duck Stab" (1977) or "Buster & Glenn"
(1978) ep's. I think these two cd's have been released on one CD.
It's also available on the ryko disc compilation "Our tired, our poor,
our huddled masses" (1997). Wich, by the way, is probably the best way
to discover this band. But it is also simply great for anyone who
dislikes commercial music.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:58:04 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Re[3]: Re[2]: Steve Reich boxset
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, George Grella wrote:
> It is "Vermont Counterpoint," but it's for a flute soloist [who has
> previously overdubbed parts on tape]. It has been recorded on ECM, but
> I don't think the CD currently is in print - I've actually been looking
> for it for a few years now, ever since a friend performed the piece in
> recital.
I'm not sure what the name was, but I definitely saw a Reich piece performed by
8 clarinets and 3 bass clarinets. I'd never really been into his stuff before,
but live it was definitely very cool.
PeterR
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 14:26:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Sherry <msherry@psych.umass.edu>
Subject: Music Scores
With Zorn's focus on music for films, has there been much discussion here
about scores for movies? I am not talking about the movie compilations
using lots of different rock numbers but the more organic music composed
for movies yet capable of standing on its own, such as the scores by
Bernard Herrmann. And can anyone recommend great movie scores from now
or yesteryear? I heard that Psycho and oddly enough seventh Voyage of
Sinbad were particularly good.
Mike Sherry
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:36:24 -1000
From: sfunk@pop.adn.com (Stephen Funk)
Subject: Re: Music Scores
> And can anyone recommend great movie scores from now
>or yesteryear? I heard that Psycho and oddly enough seventh Voyage of
>Sinbad were particularly good.
>Mike Sherry
>
Well, theres "Titanic".... just kidding!!!!!
Seriously, "Psycho" by Hermann is a definite must. You might also try:
- "Once Upon A Time in The West" by Ennio Morricone (and his other stuff)
- "The Man With The Golden Arm" by Elmer Bernstein
- "On The Waterfront" by Leonard Bernstein
- "The Omen" by Jerry Goldsmith
- "Contempt" by Georges Delarue (sp?)
- - Steve
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:28:25 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Cynical Hysterie Hour
What are the chances of ever seeing this cartoon here in the states?
Maybe Tzadik will start a video division?
PeterR
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 14:50:01 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Re: Music Scores
>With Zorn's focus on music for films, has there been much discussion
>here about scores for movies? I am not talking about the movie
>compilations using lots of different rock numbers but the more organic
>music composed for movies yet capable of standing on its own, such as
>the scores by Bernard Herrmann. And can anyone recommend great movie
>scores from now or yesteryear? I heard that Psycho and oddly enough
>seventh Voyage of Sinbad were particularly good.
>Mike Sherry
Among relatively recent issues (and maybe stretching the term
'soundtrack' a bit), I've greatly enjoyed Simon Fisher Turner's work,
particularly 'Blue' (and 'Live Blue Roma') and 'The Last of England'
both for films of the late Derek Jarman. But everything I've heard by
him has had something of value, even in his pop incarnation as the
King of Luxembourg.
Other individual scores I've liked a lot in the past couple of years
include Frank London's 'The Schvitz' and Zhao Jiping's 'Raise the Red
Lantern'.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:03:13 -0400
From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Movie Scores (was Music Scores)
>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sherry <msherry@psych.umass.edu> writes:
Michael> With Zorn's focus on music for films, has there been much
Michael> discussion here about scores for movies? I am not
Michael> talking about the movie compilations using lots of
Michael> different rock numbers but the more organic music
Michael> composed for movies yet capable of standing on its own,
Michael> such as the scores by Bernard Herrmann. And can anyone
Michael> recommend great movie scores from now or yesteryear? I
Michael> heard that Psycho and oddly enough seventh Voyage of
Michael> Sinbad were particularly good. Mike Sherry
Night on Earth, by Tom Waits. We just rented the movie last week and
saw this excellent piece for the first time, but Waits' music is also
excellent. There is a soundtrack which I've got, but I haven't
listened to it since we saw the movie, so I can't make any additional
comments.
Eleni Karaindrou has three soundtrack albums on ECM (not to bring that
bunch up again, but...). The first, Music for Films, is a compilation
from a bunch of different movies, and does include Jan Garbarek on
some tracks. The most recent, Ulysses' Gaze, is much more
soundtrack-like with the same theme repeated in different (sometimes
not so different) ways. All of them are mostly string orchestra, very
melodic and romantic with a touch of melancholy, suitable for late
night listening. Additional info on Karaindrou is at
http://www.ecmrecords.com/ecm/artists/213.html.
- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #318
*******************************
To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
"majordomo@lists.xmission.com"
with
"unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
in the body of the message.
For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
"help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
in the commands above with "zorn-list".
Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.
Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com