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1998-03-03
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #254
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, March 3 1998 Volume 02 : Number 254
In this issue:
-
more crazy bass music
Re: Ornette Coleman
Re: Robert Rodriguez/Serge Gainsbourg
Re: FMP recs?
Re: FMP recs?
Re: more crazy bass music
Re: FMP recs?
Re: FW VIII
Re: Filmworks VIII
Re: Re[2]: _Shanghaied on Tor Road_
Re: Robert Rodriguez/Serge Gainsbourg
Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #252
daxophone
Re: Ornette Coleman
Rovate
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:03:13 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: more crazy bass music
I just discovered something that really peaked my interest and is
relevant to our recent discussion of double bass music. There is a
recently released disc on the Swiss For 4 Ears label (run by Gunter
Muller) by the Ensemble Sondarc called 'For Four Rooms' (For 4 Ears
CD823). The group consists of only six double bassists. I don't know
anything else about it but it interested me enough that I think I'll
order it soon.
I discovered this at
http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/labels/for4ears/for4823.html so
look there if you want.
-Tom Pratt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:07:42 +0100
From: Nils Jacobson <JACOBSON@frodo.mgh.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Ornette Coleman
john petrie <jpetrie@vt.edu> wrote:
> i highly recommend In All Languages as a great indtroduction to Ornette's
> music. It has been recently reissued on cd and features his "original"
> quartet in addition to Prime Time. Also after this i would say go ahead and
> fork out the cash for the Beauty is a Rare Thing box set. This is six discs
> of classic jazz. sorry for getting carried away...
I know other people have recommended In All Languages, but I don't think
it's the place to start. The problem is, it's a very self-conscious
recording. On IAL, you have the classic Quartet from 1959 and Prime Time
from the 70's. They have different repertoires, but on this one they
share tunes. That is, the Quartet plays Prime Time tunes and vice versa.
(As well as their own.)
You have to be very tolerant of the rhythmically-confined structures of
Prime Time to enjoy this album. While it's interesting to hear the
Quartet play Prime Time tunes, I don't think it's what they do best, and
it is certainly bound to be confusing to a newbie.
(Plus, it takes a special appreciation of percussion to enjoy Denardo
Coleman on drums, IMHO. I know other people disagree, but he has this
very repetitive sort of on-the-beat thing going on, sort of like Shannon
Jackson, but much less effective.)
The purist in me shouts out: you need to start with The Shape of Jazz To
Come. It really is much simpler and cleaner.
The box set, btw, is brilliant. Fantastic. Amazing. Genius.
- -Nils
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:07:38 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Robert Rodriguez/Serge Gainsbourg
> It's just one disc right? I got the Burt Bacharach one and I was curious
> about this one. I have never heard of Serge Gainsbourg before. Is this
> one similar to the Bacharach one just better or is it completely
different?
> Any thoughts about it...
Firstly, it is just one disc, but has a lot of material on that disc. I
wouldn't say it is very similar to the Bacharach one. It's not better, it
has a different overall feel to it. The Bacharach one I think had a few
more "original" (not necessarily making them any better) ideas for example
Marc Ribot's solo guitar arrangement of Don't Go Breaking My Heart, Joey
Baron's solo drum Alfie and Dave Douglas' jazz version of Wives And Lovers.
It seems on the Gainsbourg one that they got so carried away with the great
pop songs and French lyrics that many of them remain pretty much like the
original. John Zorn's Contact is great for a few listens, as is the Ruins
doing their usual with a song whose name escapes me. The nicest surprise on
the disc for me is David Shea's techno-ish (well I don't know what to call
it) version of Initials BB. Fred Frith and Mike Patton do good work here
too. Both albums are great, you can't really say either is significantly
better than the other, but of course everyone will have their opinions,
which can be inserted below in an orderly fashion...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:09:28 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <yol@esophagus.com>
Subject: Re: FMP recs?
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Tom Pratt wrote:
> With all of this talk about Hans Reichel, I have to ask - what FMP discs
> do you guys like the best??
Peter Kowald "Duos"
The Peter Broetzmann Octet 1966 "Machine Gun"
hasta.
Yes. Beautiful, wonderful nature. Hear it sing to us: *snap* Yes. natURE.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:19:57 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: FMP recs?
On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 18:51:03 -0500 Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> With all of this talk about Hans Reichel, I have to ask - what FMP discs
> do you guys like the best?? Looking through the website at
> http://www.wam.umd.edu/~losinp/music/fmp.html I've found a lot that
> interests me. I'm particularly interested in hearing about the discs by
> Africa Djole, Frith/Reichel/Uchihashi, Kowald/Lⁿdi/Morris/Namtchylak,
> Trio De Clarinettes Live, etc... Let me know what you like best because
> I only have a few of them. Thanks!
My top favorites:
MACHINE GUN: Peter Brotzmann Octet (pre-requisite for the Zorn list :-)
N'TANGO FUR GITTI: Ulrich Gumpert (astounding Ernst Ludwig Petrowski on cl)
LIVE IN WUPPERTAL: Globe Unity (fantastic compositions and playing!)
THE DEATH AND ...: Hans Reichel (we already know why)
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 17:22:29 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: more crazy bass music
On Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:03:13 -0500 Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> I just discovered something that really peaked my interest and is
> relevant to our recent discussion of double bass music. There is a
> recently released disc on the Swiss For 4 Ears label (run by Gunter
> Muller) by the Ensemble Sondarc called 'For Four Rooms' (For 4 Ears
> CD823). The group consists of only six double bassists. I don't know
> anything else about it but it interested me enough that I think I'll
> order it soon.
In the '80s, there was also a double bass big band in France... I guessed
it had the same success as Marais'big band of guitars...
Patrice (still waiting for a big band of didjeridus backed up
by theremin and Tuva singers).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:31:22 +0100
From: Nils Jacobson <JACOBSON@frodo.mgh.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: FMP recs?
Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net> wrote:
> With all of this talk about Hans Reichel, I have to ask - what FMP discs
> do you guys like the best?? Looking through the website at
> http://www.wam.umd.edu/~losinp/music/fmp.html I've found a lot that
> interests me. I'm particularly interested in hearing about the discs by
> Africa Djole, Frith/Reichel/Uchihashi, Kowald/L=FCdi/Morris/Namtchylak,
> Trio De Clarinettes Live, etc... Let me know what you like best because
> I only have a few of them. Thanks!
I would recommend these four CDs:
FMP CD24
Peter Brotzmann Octet (incl. Brotzmann, Parker, Kowald, Bennink, etc.)
Machine Gun (1968)
Power, dissonance, intensity. Amazing 'anti-jazz.'
FMP CD27
Schlippenbach Trio (Evan Parker, A. von Schlippenbach, Paul Lovens)
Elf Bagatellent (1990)
Nice exploration of subtleties. Sparkly, fresh.
FMP CD48
Charles Gayle/William Parker/Rashied Ali
Touchin on Trane (1991)
Intense, lyrical, interactive. A really nice disc.
FMP CD81
Matthew Shipp
Before the World (1995)
Solo Shipp. Can't get enough of this guy. Ideas galore. A cool
abstract vision of structure.
Enjoy.
- -Nils
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 20:24:58 -0800
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@IDT.NET>
Subject: Re: FW VIII
David Keffer wrote:
> Second:
> People have been going crazy about FW VIII and I can't believe
> people are saying it's the best FW he's ever put out. My point
> of view is this. If you listen to a soundtrack like that on FW III with
> Ribot and Zorn doing sax/guitar duets, you think, not only is this
> damn fantastic but only Zorn would have composed it. When you
> listen to "Port of Last Resort", I kept thinking that I had heard
> those tracks before. In fact, I started humming the words to a
> song every time I heard the second track, "Shanghai".
> I wasn't going to mention this, but having read this on the list,
>
> >Brian Olewnick wrote:
> >As impressed as I am by JZ's
> >compositional skills, I'd still be amazed if the section titled
> >'Shanghai' was not derived, at least partially, from some pre-existing
> >Chinese folk song.
>
> I will. You can sing the American folk song, "She'll be coming
> around the mountain when she comes" to Track 2, ("Shanghai" I think).
> That's right, get out your disc and sing along. I myself don't think
> that this is anywhere close to the strongest FW output. Music very
> similar to the song "Ruan", of which there are three versions on
> FW VIII, has appeared, I think, in soundtracks to about 20 Chinese movies.
> It may be nice but it lacks Zorn's signature; anybody could have composed
> it (and some people already have, or variations thereof).
>
> Not to be totally down on the disc, "Latin Boys go to Hell" is pretty good,
> but whose going to say Zorn's best FW is all percussion?
>
> As always, these preposterous opinions are provided gratis by David K.
David (+ others who pointed out the similarity),
In one sense, I'm a little abashed that I didn't notice the similarity
(and that's all I think it is; see below) but, then again, I'm now
pissed that I'll never be able to listen to the damn piece again without
thinking of that bit of Americana. Thanks a lot, guys.
The eleven note lead might be rhythmically pretty similar to the folk
song (don't know about you all, but on those occasions when I sing
it--mercifully few and far between--, I hold the "-ing" syllable longer
than JZ holds the comparable note) and the general melodic outline isn't
too different, but I'd bet it wasn't a conscious decision. My guess is
the link (maybe provided by Min Xiao-Fen) is with Revolutionary-era
Chinese songs which, in turn, were influenced by European worker songs
and folk songs, which perhaps leads us roundabout to "She'll be
Coming...". Many songs from that period bear strong similarities to
various Western folk forms (check out the one David Shea utilizes near
the beginning of 'Hsi-Yu Chi').
But, hey, maybe your right and it's a (possibly subconscious) reworking
of the folk song. So what? It's a gorgeous piece. If 'Ruan' is a clone
of some Chinese film scores, who cares? I could care less about how
'original' Zorn's being; I'm interested in hearing beautiful music.
Personally, I've been very heartened by Zorn's work in recent years,
from which I get a sense of maturity and depth in even his most radical
pieces (like 'Zohar' or the water and fire pieces from Filmworks...I
forget the number), not to mention his increasing love of
'traditionally' beautiful melody in Masada, much of the Filmworks series
and in wonderful work like 'Duras' and (a recent fave) the 'Aliya'
section of 'Angelus Novus'. Post-modern irony was well and good for a
time and a necessary tonic (it'll surely be needed again), but I find
that I weary a bit of the cut-up pieces and I'm not as impressed with
work like 'For Your Eyes Only' and 'Carny' (for all their virtuosity and
skill needed to perform them) as I'm sure I would've been ten years ago.
His recent free improv work (with Bailey this past summer, eg) also
strikes me as deeper, more considered, more interested in getting at the
truth of the moment than in the past. Along with a handful of composers
like Braxton, Yoshihide, O'Rourke, and Stone, I think we're in for a
great ride with Mr. Zorn.
Just yet another guy's preposterous opinions,
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:52:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Benton <rancor@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: Filmworks VIII
>> Seconded and then some; a beautiful record. As impressed as I am by
>> JZ's compositional skills, I'd still be amazed if the section titled
>> 'Shanghai' was not derived, at least partially, from some pre-existing
>> Chinese folk song. Does anyone know about this? If he wrote this from
>> scratch, my hat's in doffing mode in perpetuity.
>
>Actually, if you shift a fairly small number of notes around, it's
>"She'll Be Comin' Round the Mountain". 1/2-)
Am I the only person who's noticed that the entire bridge of 'Maskil' (one
of the Ribot/Cohen duets on Bar Kokhba) is straight from 'Sunrise, Sunset'
from "Fiddler on the Roof?" It's almost too long a phrase for me to think
it's pure coincidence; I'm starting to be of the opinion that JZ is having
some fun with us...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:01:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: _Shanghaied on Tor Road_
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 peter_risser@cinfin.com wrote:
> How did this thread start and what exactly is a daxophone?
1) Someone asked about a Hans Reichel record. Not exactly on topic for
this list, but when has that stopped us?
2) An instrument invented by Hans Reichel. I've only seen them in
photographs, but I gather that they're essentially long, narrow, flat
pieces of wood of various shapes. They're played (mostly) with a bow.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:05:09 -0800 (PST)
From: tosh@loop.com (Tosh)
Subject: Re: Robert Rodriguez/Serge Gainsbourg
The Gainsbourg collection is great! It is quite 'respectful' to the great
songwriter and personality. The whole cd flows nicely. Get it!
- -----------------
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
- ----------------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:09:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #252
On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> I don't think that there is any sign of Coleman's influence on
> anything that Zorn recorded before 1988.
>
> > "jazz style" stuff that Zorn does.
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Most of the jazz stuff from Zorn predates Coleman (Sonny Clark, Hank Mobley,
> Kenny Dorham, etc).
Sure, but Zorn never sounded all that much like Hank Mobley on sax.
Dolphy, Mitchell, and (I expect) Braxton may have been more dominant
influences on Zorn's earlier "jazz" playing, but I'd say Coleman's been an
influence all along. He's certainly become a more dominant one in recent
years.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 22:32:27 -0500
From: "David J. Keffer" <keffer@shell.planetc.com>
Subject: daxophone
>From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
>Subject: Re[2]: _Shanghaied on Tor Road_
>
>I'm confused.
>How did this thread start and what exactly is a daxophone?
>
This thread got started with a question
about Hans Reichel, a German inventor, musician, and
type-face designer, among other things. He's been
releasing records for 25 years or more, mostly on
the Berlin label FMP, Free Music Productions.
He has some duo records out with Fred Frith and Tom Cora,
a new (1997) duo with a percussionist, E.ROC, called "The
Return of Onskel Boskopp", and about a dozen or so solo
records.
I think that Reichel first rose to (relative) prominence
because he built all the guitars he played and built them
so that they could be played both in front of the
bridge (as is usual) and behind. What this allows
for is overtones generated by two different lengths
of string vibrating on either side of the bridge.
About ten years ago, he started making records
with an instrument of his own construction, which he
called the dachsophone and which became the daxophone.
As to what it is, it's better to listen first
to a piece by the daxophone before seeing what it is.
The first time I heard it on a seven inch, I swore it was
some kind of contorted wind instrument. It is not,
nothing like that. But if you want to know the
construction of the daxophone, there are some nice
pictures and a brief description at
http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/idax.html
and a little bio on Reichel at
http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mreichel.html
The latter site has 2 video clips, one with him
on guitar and the other with him on solo daxophone.
I also have a little web site, with an interactive
daxophone, featuring sounds from daxophones that I
have built. For the curious, it's at
http://www.planetc.com/users/keffer/dax/text/daxmain.html
You need Netscape 3.0 or greater to view it
(frame-capable and java script enabled browser necessary).
Warning: it was recorded on a $2.00 microphone.
David K.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:11:50 -0800
From: "Patrick Stockton" <sheepherder@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ornette Coleman
okay...
i never intended to spawn a huge discussion on the relative merits of
different coleman works. i was simply trying to inform people that Ornette
has made some good music since TSOJTC and Free Jazz. I owned and listened
to much Ornette...but over the years my musical tastes have evolved or
changed whatever.... a respected friend recommended In All Languages and i
picked it up. i was very elated to find that i re-discovered Ornette in a
new light. Then i got tone Dialing and found it to be somewhat outside of
my appreciation throughout some of the disc... but there was much that was
"fresh" concerning Ornette.
that fact that i am not that a very big Ornette Coleman fan probably makes
me appreciate TSOJTC and Free Jazz as important works of art yet still
enjoy hearing ToneDialing more than the infamous double quartet. even
though i understand that Tone dialing does not have a large influence on
jazz history or future for that matter, unlike the "popular works", i think
they are indispensable for the ornette fan, and of much interest to the
music connoisseur.
sorry if i offended anyone...
i just assumed everyone on this list had experienced and understood the
earlier works and that they might not know that he had other worthwhile
projects
patrick in portland
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:36:12 -0800 (PST)
From: leon lee <llee15@ccsf.cc.ca.us>
Subject: Rovate
hi everyone,
just an announcement from the bay area:
Rovate: an Improvisers Festival
Fri & Sat. April 3&4
friday:
John Schott's Diglossia Ensemble (featuring the likes of Ben Goldberg)
What We Live (Lisle Ellis, Donald Robinson, Larry Ochs) w/ special guest
Wadada Leo Smith
ROVA SAX QUARTET premiering pieces by Wadada Leo Smith & John Schott
saturday:
Actual Size (George Cremaschi, Garth Powell, Bruce Ackley) + Jon Raskin
Tiny Bell Trio (nyc) (dave douglas, jim black, brad shepik)
ROVA premiering pieces by George Lewis and Larry Ochs
$15/show
$25/both shows
@ ODC Theatre 415-863-9833
I'm very happy about this. What WE Live + W.L.Smith and Tiny Bell Trio
- --nice.
disclaimer:it's all blue.
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #254
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