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1998-02-02
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #221
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, February 2 1998 Volume 02 : Number 221
In this issue:
-
On-line imported instruments?
Sonic Youth / O'Rourke
Re: vandermark&the chicago scene
Re: EXECUTION GROUND out?
aaaaarrrrrgghh
In Memory of Nikki Arane
Re: In Memory of Nikki Arane
Re: In Memory of Nikki Arane
Re: Braxton, Zorn's cliches
Re: Dolphy
Re: Dolphy
Re: Braxton, Zorn's cliches
Re: EXECUTION GROUND out?
Re: ken vandermark
Re: Braxton at KF in March
Re: Braxton at KF in March
Re: Braxton and recording
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:40:59 PST
From: "Silent Watcher" <silent_watcher@hotmail.com>
Subject: On-line imported instruments?
I'm hoping that some people on the list can help me out on this,
especially since there appear to be quite a few musicians on it. I'm
looking for somewhere, either on-line or in New York City, that sells
didgeridoos made from eucalyptus, and/or instruments from West Africa.
Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry for the stretch from Zorn
related postings!
SW
Want/For Sale list and Laswell Discography
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/7093
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 09:45:53 -0700
From: tricky88@earthlink.net
Subject: Sonic Youth / O'Rourke
Felix said:
>
> As anyone out there ever heard the album TV Shit with Yamantaka Eye and
> Sonic Youth? If so, how's it like?
This post reminded me of the new Sonic Youth I heard this weekend - I DJ
at a pirate L.A. station on Fridays and the DJ before me is Mike Watt.
Last Friday I'm driving in and he has a guest DJ on - Thurston Moore -
who is playing the latest instrumental SY EP (vol. 3). I found the
first two a bit boring, but this one is co-credited to Jim O'Rourke; 3
songs, about 50 minutes of music, and really interesting stuff. I don't
think it has been released yet, but all fans of either musician(s)
should check it out.
- -Mauer
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:57:28 -0600
From: magnum-jihad@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson)
Subject: Re: vandermark&the chicago scene
On Mon, 02 Feb 1998 08:43:56 PST "Scott Handley" <c123018@hotmail.com>
writes:
>Okay, okay, I'm REALLY sorry to be liar, but I'd thought I'd ask once
>real freakin kwik if anyone here has listened to some of the new
>"jazz"
>etc. coming out of Chicago?
Dennison/Kimball Trio! Indie-Rock giants play some sort of Jazz,
and do it well. Duane Dennison rules.
They've put out a single with Vandermark and jim O'Rourke.
And..There's only two of 'em in the trio, clever!
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:57:41 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: EXECUTION GROUND out?
Patrice asked:
<<The Pain Killer reissue EXECUTION GROUND is listed as available on the Verge
distribution catalog (http://www.ptbo.igs.net/~verge/).
What is strange is that it is a 3xCD, and not a 4xCD. It does not seem that
the first two Pain Killer are on the set...
Did Tzakik change their mind or is Verge just using an old description of
the set?>>
Earache is reissuing (at least in England, I'm not sure about the US) Guts of
A Virgin and Buried Secrets on a single disc February 9. Maybe Tzadik decided
there was no need for an overlap. Or maybe they tried to buy the rights back
from Earache and Earche decided to release it themselves instead. Either way,
it should be out soon.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:14:09 +0100 (MEZ)
From: BJOERN <bjoern.eichstaedt@student.uni-tuebingen.de>
Subject: aaaaarrrrrgghh
tzadiks german distributor has money problems/...
so we probably wont see the release of Angelus Novus over here that soon
:(((((((((
BJOERN
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:41:35
From: "Doug McKay" <mckay003@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: In Memory of Nikki Arane
What sort of music is this? My experience with Zorn so far is Naked City's
first and the Black Box reissue, Spillane, Spy vs Spy (getting to be my
favorite), Film Works 1, and Pain Killer's Execution Ground.
On Eye: I found myself last night getting tired of his screaming on damn
near every song on Torture Garden. It's basically one idea repeated ad
nauseum. Even, in a sense, the spastic songs - like someone who can't stick
to a topic but goes off on tangent after tangent, never going beyond the
initial thought that made it seem relevant - was seeming played out. But I
was tired, and maybe not every time is the right time for Zorn. I put on
one of Mozart's Hayden Quartets and felt better. There the ideas are
developed and explored.
So, what is the Nikki Arane album like? (And who was she?) I see the songs
have some length to them. I don't know anything about Chadbourne.
Doug McKay
In Minnesota
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:01:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: In Memory of Nikki Arane
On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Doug McKay wrote:
> What sort of music is this? My experience with Zorn so far is Naked City's
> first and the Black Box reissue, Spillane, Spy vs Spy (getting to be my
> favorite), Film Works 1, and Pain Killer's Execution Ground.
It's free improv duos, and it's pretty good. However, if you're not
familiar with the genre (which the above list suggests you might not be),
_Harras_ with Derek Bailey and William Parker or _Euclid's Nightmare_ with
Bobby Previte would probably be better entry points into Zorn's work in
the area. (Even better, but harder to find, would be _Yankees_ with
Bailey and George Lewis.)
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 17:46:43 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Re: In Memory of Nikki Arane
Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
> (Even better, but harder to find, would be _Yankees_ with Bailey and
> George Lewis.)
...which is available in the limited edition section of the Wayside
catalog for a mere $5.00 (though it may be out of stock by now).
-Tom Pratt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:40:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Braxton, Zorn's cliches
On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Scott Handley wrote:
> Pardon if this is a question redundant to this list, but what does
> everybody think about A.B.'s work?
Hi, my name's Chris . . . "Hi, Chris!" . . . and I <choke> don't like
Anthony Braxton. But I know so many people of excellent taste who do that
I assume this is my problem. So here's the problem: Most Braxton that
I've heard (I'm thinking particularly of some of the Creative Orchestra
Music from the 70's) strikes me as overly cold and ironic. Would anyone
be willing to point me towards some irony-free stuff that might get me
over my Braxton problem?
> Of course, both gentlemen do things on the small horn that simply
> wasn't done (and documented) before, but I still have problems with
> Zorn's consistent repetition of his own cliches when he plays "straight"
> (in TIME, that is; case in point: Masada).
I can see this, although I'm not sure I agree. Do you hear the same
clches in his relatively straight non-Masada work? I'm thinking here of
the News for Lulu group, the Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet, and his work as
a sideman for John Patton. I have a hard time hearing whatever cliches
might be in the Masada work in these cases.
> What Zorn, to take one example prominent among others, has on the
> above guys is a really STRONG sense of concept, of framework. The ideas
> and sounds (with the exception of the horrible noise and stupid dada
> jokes that waste my money---and I do NOT mean Naked City so relax)
Careful, Scott. You could end up getting hate mail for weeks.:^)
> are
> almost always NEW, dammit. It's NEVER just "more jazz" (to quote Eno).
> But this profusion of invention and re-invention should not be, IMHO,
> confused with SUBSTANCE, which is why Trane was SO FUCKING GREAT.
I think this distinction isn't so easy to make. For the sake of argument,
let's say that a piece of music is pitched or non-pitched
sounds arranged in relation to each other. Put the emphasis on the word
"sounds" in the preceding sentence and you're talking about musical
substance. Put the emphasis on "relation" and you're talking about
musical framework. But you don't get one without the other. For
instance,
> You
> can listen to anything, almost, from SOULTRANE to STELLAR REGIONS and
> he's putting SO MUCH THOUGHT into not just the concepts (sound, space,
> and time), but in the placement of ACTUAL notes within and around those
> sounds.
Aren't the actual notes just the sounds and doesn't their placement
exhaust Trane's concepts of space and time?
> In other words, he's gradually creating a new language while
> realizing that we don't speak his new language yet, so he transalates to
> us for years, acclimatizing us to the (his) new way of speaking,
> of--yes--COMMUNICATING. Nothing New Age (newage) about this.
Certainly not. But this works for Coltrane because he started off playing
in a consensus-approved style at a time when jazz had a stylistic center.
Like some of Coltrane's contemporaries (Taylor, Sun Ra, Coleman) Zorn
didn't make his move into the avant-garde gradually, and like any musician
who's come on the scene since 1970, he didn't have the luxury of a
mainstream to base his innovations around.
Looking over my post, I think I've been a bit too abstract, so let me
sum up. Works like _The Classic Guide to Strategy_, _Locus Solus_, the
Painkiller records, etc.,(in other words, Zorn's non-straight work) do
sound radically new in a way that the work of Lovano, Marsalis, and
Coltrane doesn't, and the radical novelty just is the result of
the selecting and arranging of sounds by Zorn and his collaborators.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:48:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <chhst9+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Dolphy
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Doug McKay wrote:
> I was thinking though that I
> came across his name aside from that book, and in connection with Zorn.
Hat Hut periodically ran advertisements for their Zorn catalog using a
quote from Zorn in which he compared his sax playing to Dolphy's. I
believe the substance was that they both approached playing from a
composition/structure-oriented standpoint.
Chris Hamilton
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:59:03 -0600
From: Dan Hewins <hewins@synsolutions.com>
Subject: Re: Dolphy
This reminds me of something...
Does anyone else get annoyes by the way Zorn talks about himself and his
music in his liner notes? I found the notes to _First Recordings 1979_ and
the Filmworks discs particularly pretentious. I can remember something
about "...notice my technical expertise..." in the First Recordings notes.
In the Filmworks notes he likes to tell us how he can throw his weight
around to get what he wants, "...I never let the directors tell me what to
do..." etc. I know I don't have to read them but come on...
Dan
>Hat Hut periodically ran advertisements for their Zorn catalog using a
>quote from Zorn in which he compared his sax playing to Dolphy's. I
>believe the substance was that they both approached playing from a
>composition/structure-oriented standpoint.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:40:21 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Re: Braxton, Zorn's cliches
Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Scott Handley wrote:
>
> > Pardon if this is a question redundant to this list, but what does
> > everybody think about A.B.'s work?
>
> Hi, my name's Chris . . . "Hi, Chris!" . . . and I <choke> don't like
> Anthony Braxton. But I know so many people of excellent taste who do that
> I assume this is my problem. So here's the problem: Most Braxton that
> I've heard (I'm thinking particularly of some of the Creative Orchestra
> Music from the 70's) strikes me as overly cold and ironic. Would anyone
> be willing to point me towards some irony-free stuff that might get me
> over my Braxton problem?
I know what you mean. 'Four (Ensemble) Compositions' on Black Saint
never excited me much, but I think the Wilisau Quartet 4-CD set on
HatArt (w/Crispell, Dresser & Hemmingway) is one of the best things
around!
> > Of course, both gentlemen do things on the small horn that simply
> > wasn't done (and documented) before, but I still have problems with
> > Zorn's consistent repetition of his own cliches when he plays "straight"
> > (in TIME, that is; case in point: Masada).
>
> I can see this, although I'm not sure I agree. Do you hear the same
> clches in his relatively straight non-Masada work? I'm thinking here of
> the News for Lulu group, the Sonny Clark Memorial Quartet, and his work as
> a sideman for John Patton. I have a hard time hearing whatever cliches
> might be in the Masada work in these cases.
I'd disagree with them being "cliches" but Zorn DOES have quite a few
recycled licks (especially in the blues idiom). I've never thought of
Zorn as having his strength in his technical ability or his horn playing
in general and these recycled licks are definitely "tendencies" -
limitations of his informal training and not-so-great technical ability.
His strength is certainly as a composer and conceptualist - that's at
least what I listen to him for.
-Tom Pratt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:34:59 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: EXECUTION GROUND out?
Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> What is strange is that it is a 3xCD, and not a 4xCD. It does not seem that
> the first two Pain Killer are on the set...
>
> Did Tzakik change their mind or is Verge just using an old description of
> the set?
I'd guess the latter... it's listed as a four CD set in the February Koch book
and the lineups for the first two albums are listed on the page... I'm still
kinda wondering why they didn't also include the live set with Heino from Toy's
Factory.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 20:43:16 -0500
From: Alan E Kayser <aek1@erols.com>
Subject: Re: ken vandermark
Brent Burton wrote:
> i posted this last week to another list i'm on...
>
> <the new dkv trio (hamid drake - drums, kent kessler - bass, and ken
> vandermark - reeds) okka disc called _baraka_ is 70 minutes of
> tenor-based
> energy sound sprawl. and i do mean sprawl. the title track alone is
> over
> 30 minutes long and spans from art ensemble of chicago-like sparseness
> to
> full-on tenor grunt and howl. none of these songs have heads per se,
> but
> there is a strong feel for dynamics and a certain economy and
> precision to
> their playing that i find really attractive.>
Just to follow up on this, Vandermark has a web site at
portaudio.com/cic/vandermark.html. You can download some of his
excellent work. THE DKV trio stuff is hot. They have two on okka, one
of which is limited to 600 copies. It's a live date, one 60+ minute
blast. Vandermark was actually the replacement for Hal Russell in the
NRG Ensemble. He has a rock background, but is now full out a jazz
burner. He has quite a few projects going, sort of a Chicago based Tim
Berne. He plays an excellent bass clarinet, as well as tenor. Part of
a blossoming "Downtown" Chicago scene, it would seem. Visit the web
site for everything you always wanted to know about Vandermark but...
Alan Kayser
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:04:55 -0500
From: Alan E Kayser <aek1@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Braxton at KF in March
Scott Handley wrote:
> ON FEB 1 you wrote:
>
> >Anyone have details on AB's three shows at KF this March? (Line-ups,
> >solo? ghost trance? piano group? etc...)
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Brian Olewnick
>
> have you checked the details on Braxton's own Tri-Centric Foundation
> home page? lotsa great details, dozens of essays written by Mr
> Braxton,
> liner notes, etc. go to:
>
> www.wesleyan.edu/music/braxton
>
> Pardon if this is a question redundant to this list, but what does
> everybody think about A.B.'s work?
The Willisau box from Hat Art is essential. Close behind is the new San
Jose Quartet. Lots of Braxton's Arista quartet albums were excellent
but remain un-cd-ed (?). Check out Orchestra 1978, very good. I think
the Crispell, Dresser (aha a zorn connection), Hemingway quartet ranks
right up there with the greatest of jazz units. Listening to Wllisau
will make a fan of anyone with open ears.
> For those who don't know, there will apparently be
> two huge Ghost Trance box sets (10 cds and 12 cds, Knit and Oakland,
> respectively) coming out soon (?).
> I am a huge fan of the
> "Drespellingway" quartet, but the ghost trance quartet CD on Brax's
> label kind of bored me. Maybe I didn't listen hard enuff? Any
> opinions
> on the other Ghost Trance stuff?
Please say it ain't so!!! YES YES YES Ghost Trance is IMHO dead on
boring. At least the piano quartet stuff had Marty Ehrlich. But GT
just leaves me cold. And there's so much of it. I dare even the most
devoted AB fan to differentiate one GT cd from another. And this is
from an AB fan, though his last few projects have made me question his
sanity. And why does he feel as though every project must have so many
documents of their existence?
Alan Kayser
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:22:44 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@humansystems.com>
Subject: Re: Braxton at KF in March
Alan E Kayser wrote:
> Please say it ain't so!!! YES YES YES Ghost Trance is IMHO dead on
> boring.
What is the Ghost Trance stuff? How does it differ from his other work?
- --
- ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:40:58 EST
From: QUESOMALO@aol.com
Subject: Re: Braxton and recording
In a message dated 98-02-02 21:01:55 EST, you write:
<< And this is
from an AB fan, though his last few projects have made me question his
sanity. And why does he feel as though every project must have so many
documents of their existence?>>
Here is some of what Braxton says about recording in an interview printed for
the notes of Anthony Braxton Quartet Victoriaville (1992) :
"At a certain point it became clear there would be no real money in this,
which might not be so bad anymore, I mean once you get used to it. My purpose
then became very clear: I wanted to continue to evolve my music and document
what I could of it, but what that would mean was the realization that I'm not
interested in some of the measurements that have become current in terms of
how we view the music. I see the model that I am building as an evolvinf
model, and I'm not interested in it ever arriving. It's the process of
evolution and discovery that excites me, and what sound opens up to me in
terms of the whole experience of trying to live. As such, I have tried to
approach recording based on: I want diversity."
This may not resolve anything for us as we try to sort through his
seemingly overpopulated catalog, but it makes perfect sense when examining his
motives as an artist. Each recording is like a journal entry. A document of
the way things happened in relation to each other at a certain point in time.
No one is the perfect version, just a part of the whole. Of course, it has
also been mentioned that the man is insane.
In terms of what Braxton is good to start with: I was lucky enough to
have my school music teacher introduce me to Braxton through Willisau, which I
liked immediately. Just Dresser's bass work alone was enough to make my jaw
drop. I've since heard other Braxton discs which I'm sure would have failed
to spark my interest so. I've enjoyed most of the quartet recordings I've
heard and I really like Braxton's duets with Derek Bailey.
That music teacher has suggested playing one of Braxton's pieces, as
well as Cobra, with my high school jazz band. Those may be a bit too
ambitious for us, though we have played one of Zorn's Masada pieces, several
Steve Coleman pieces, and a wide range of other interesting things. Needless
to say, he's not your average high school music teacher.
Next year, I'll be attending Wesleyan, where Mr. Braxton teaches... not
your average college music teacher. Does anyone know to what extent he is
involved with student performers?
I'm sorry if I come off as an over-zealous high school student, but that is
what I am.
-Nick
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #221
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