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zorn-list Digest        Friday, August 22 1997        Volume 02 : Number 106



In this issue:

    Re: Dave Douglas/Chris Speed
    Re: Beauty
    Re: Dave Douglas/Chris Speed
    Re: Beauty
    b[e|in]au[rali]ty (was just Beauty)
    Re: Pieces
    Re: b[e|in]au[rali]ty (was just Beauty)
    Re: Pieces
    Zorn's Interviews
    trades wanted
    Re: gastr del sol redux
    Re: Pieces
    Re: Pieces
    Re: Pieces
    Re: Beauty
    Re: Beauty
    Re: Ronald Shannon Jackson Complete Discography
    RE: masada liner notes (reprise)

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:45:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Juno-Temp1 <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dave Douglas/Chris Speed

<Chris Speed - 'Yeah No'.  Speed (reeds); Cuong Vu (trumpet); Skuli
Sverrison (elec. bass).>

Speaking of Skuli Sverrison, I have his latest CD.  Everything on the CD
is done by Skuli.  I have to say that it is one of the most intense CDs
ever.  You'd never expect this kind of thing from hearing Skuli play in
other people's bands.

The CD is called "Seremonie" on extreme records.  I highly recommend
getting it.  It'll scare the hell out of you while stripping the paint
off of your walls.  Funny thing is, the record is also full of joy (as
corny as that may sound).

- -JW

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:02:36 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Beauty

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:24:04 -0400 (EDT)  "k. drudge" wrote:
>
> > It is just that by stretching too much the meaning of words (assuming words
> > are still used for communication, and communication with a willingful person,
> > not a die hard specialist part of a group which can count itself on the ten
> > fingers of their hand :-), you might reach a point where they become
> > useless, and I do not see that as a good thing (always in my boring view
> > of seeing words as a way to communicate with a willingful, but not expert,
> > audience).
>
> how can one `stretch' the meaning of the word beauty when it is
> defined by reference to the beholder?

Yes, you are right. I even know people who claim that Kenny G's music
is beautiful.

Do you have a list of all the words that are "defined by reference
to the beholder". Or maybe, it might be easier, the list of the ones
that are not defined by the beholder (if any...)? As you can see, I
am fairly short on this topic of what is and what is not.

    Patrice.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 00:24:45 +0100 (BST)
From: "Alan M Gordon (MSc/NC)" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Dave Douglas/Chris Speed

>Speaking of Skuli Sverrison, I have his latest CD.  Everything on the CD

>is done by Skuli.  I have to say that it is one of the most intense CDs

>ever.  You'd never expect this kind of thing from hearing Skuli play in

>other people's bands.
>
>The CD is called "Seremonie" on extreme records.  I highly recommend

>getting it.  It'll scare the hell out of you while stripping the paint

>off of your walls.  Funny thing is, the record is also full of joy (as

>corny as that may sound).
>
>-JW

Perhaps you could give some more hints as to what it sounds like, to those of
us who've never heard of this guy.  In general i expect kind of quiet but
subtle scary/atmospheric noises from extreme (eg.pablos eye, merzbow, land,
hideki kato) -- does this fit in with them?

alan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:43:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "k.   drudge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Beauty

> > how can one `stretch' the meaning of the word beauty when it is
> > defined by reference to the beholder?
>
> Yes, you are right. I even know people who claim that Kenny G's music
> is beautiful.
>
> Do you have a list of all the words that are "defined by reference
> to the beholder". Or maybe, it might be easier, the list of the ones
> that are not defined by the beholder (if any...)? As you can see, I
> am fairly short on this topic of what is and what is not.
>
>     Patrice.

i think you're right that all words are defined by the speaker, but the
degree to which this matters much tends to vary directly as the `degree of
abstractness' in the concept being denoted.  in other words, you (usually)
don't see people arguing about what a shoe is.

keldon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:38:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: b[e|in]au[rali]ty (was just Beauty)

>Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:29:46 -0700
>From: Marlene McMullen <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Beauty
>
>I find the genre we are discussing extremely beautiful, and extremely =
>lasting.  It rewards repeated listenings more than many other genres.  =
>And this is paradoxical because a purist might say free-improv is only =
>for the immediate moment.  The beauty of it for me is that it requires a =
>transformation of the usual ways of listening to hear the beauty of it.
>
>BINAURALITY by the King Ubu Orchestra remains one of my lasting =
>favorites in this genre...highly recommended.
>

Binaurality is one of my favorites as well, albeit one I have not been able
to share with too many others.  Putting KUO in the context of Parachute has
made me have another listen to Archery, which I remembered as being dry,
unfocussed, and rather difficult.  But after today's listening, in the light
of Naked City and so much of what this group of musicians has done since, I
have to revise my opinion.

The most prevalent musical quality on both these albums (Binaurality and
Archery) is texture, to the exclusion of almost everything else (melody,
beats, individual virtuosity, etc.), and the fact that the music is
improvised with a group of musicians (as opposed to, say, musique concrete,
which often emphasizes texture as well, but which is composed and refined in
a studio) leaves me in awe.  The sounds that these groups bring out of the
diverse but traditional instruments (although KUO has Georg Katzer on
electronics in addition to nine other players) is nothing short of amazing.
Archery seemed to have more small combinations, achieving a wide variety of
textures by varying the combinations in which the twelve instrumentalists
worked together, whereas KUO plays more as an emsemble.  In both cases it's
fun to guess what instruments are playing, as the techniques are so
unorthodox that sometimes you can't tell.  Binaurality is an excellent
reference point if you're looking for a musical comparison for Archery; I
cannot imagine liking one and not liking the other.

Further information on KUO is linked to the Radu Malfatti (he plays in KUO)
page at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mmalfatt.html, which is in
turn part of an excellent site on mostly European independent labels
specializing in improvised music.  Malfatti also plays on the Random
Acoustics album Polwechsel, which I would also recommend to fans of this genre.

- --
Caleb T. Deupree
[e-mail]
;; For every complex question there is a simple answer.
;; And it is wrong.  (H. L. Mencken)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:16:56 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pieces

At 06:30 PM 8/21/97 -0400, R=E9mi Bissonnette wrote:

>Also, is the Avant recording "Buckethead plays Disney" still in limbo, or
>will it ever be released?  (has it even been recorded?)

I asked Bucket about this a while ago and got a non-commital answer.  He
was much more interested in talking about horror movies.

>
>Finally, does anybody know what's been going on with Blind Idiot God since
>"Cyclotron"?

They haven't been doing much as a group lately.  I think Bill moving the
studio out of Brooklyn will probably affect who records with him (he
produced all the BIG albums and some of the individual stuff they did.) =20


Jeff Spirer
Axiom/Material
http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:25:43 -0700
From: Schwitterz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: b[e|in]au[rali]ty (was just Beauty)

Caleb Deupree wrote: >

> Binaurality is one of my favorites as well, albeit one I have not been
> able
> to share with too many others. Further information on KUO is linked to
> the Radu Malfatti (he plays in KUO)
> page at http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mmalfatt.html, which is
> in
> turn part of an excellent site on mostly European independent labels
> specializing in improvised music.  Malfatti also plays on the Random
> Acoustics album Polwechsel, which I would also recommend to fans of
> this genre.

You are the first human being I have ever interacted with who knows and
likes BINAURALITY...I purchased it around the same time as I got
Brotzmann's MARZ COMBO and Borah Bergman/Evan Parker's FIRE TALE...All
three of those Cds remain in my pantheon of stunning listening
experiences...Tony Oxley's Celebration Orchestra's THE ENCHANTED
MESSENGER is a more recent entry...multi-layered textures of extremely
empathic interaction...excuse me...I'm drooling on my keyboard...oh, and
thanks for the link...hadn't run across that one yet...

Sz

~~~~~to strengthen what is right in a fool is a holy task~~~~~
            I Ching...Hexagram 4...Meng [Youthful Folly]
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:32:28 -0700
From: Schwitterz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pieces

Jeff Spirer wrote:

> I asked Bucket about this a while ago and got a non-commital answer.
> He
> was much more interested in talking about horror movies.

I got all excited about Buckethead after hearing him on a Company CD
with Derek Bailey and reading quite a bit about him.  Then he made a
surprise appearance at a tiny club in the outskirts of Santa Barbara,
CA, and I was hugely disappointed.  It was more like Eddie Van Halen in
disguise than anything I would associate with Zorn or Bailey.  How does
he sound on recordings under his own name?

Sz

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: chad edwards <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn's Interviews

    I have have been looking for interviews with J.Z.
but have had little luck finding any. any suggestions?



_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:24:30 -0500
From: Mark Corroto <[e-mail]>
Subject: trades wanted

I  own a few LPs that  some of you Z-sters might covet
since i no longer pray to the turntable , I'd be happy to swap them
my list:

John Zorn - The Classic Guide To Strategy Volume One (Lumnia L004)
Mark Bingham - I Passed For Human  (Dog Gone 0006)
Naked City - Torture Garden  ShimmyDisc (000000039)
Rochester/Veasley Band - One Minute of Love  (Grammavison 18 8505-1)
cut out
JimStaley  - Mumbo Jumbo (rift 12)
Beresford /Toop... - Deadly Weapons(Nato950)
Ambitious lovers - Greed (Virgin 7 90903-1)
Sonny Clark Memorial Qt - Voodoo (BS 0109)

Among the things I'm looking for are the following on CD:
Zorn -Deadly Weapons
Mark Bingham - I Passed For Human


mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:34:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brian & Sharon Beuchaw <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gastr del sol redux

On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote:

>
> out of curiosity, in light
> of the reason O'Rourke gave
> for leaving Gastr, what
> happens to the Dexter's Cigar
> label which he supposedly
> is co-running with Grubbs?

From some info over on the droneon list (which went thru this thread a few
weeks ago), the label is still going to be jointly run.  I think this is
good info as it came from someone who actually talked to O'Rourke or
Grubbs.

cya
brian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:17:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: "[e-mail]" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pieces

> They haven't been doing much as a group lately.  I think Bill moving the
> studio out of Brooklyn will probably affect who records with him (he
> produced all the BIG albums and some of the individual stuff they did.)

Just out of curiosity, what is the name of the new studio?  Is it still in
NYC?

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:29:34 -0700
From: Jeff Spirer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pieces

At 06:32 PM 8/21/97 -0700, Schwitterz wrote:
>Jeff Spirer wrote:
>
>> I asked Bucket about this a while ago and got a non-commital answer.
>> He
>> was much more interested in talking about horror movies.
>
>I got all excited about Buckethead after hearing him on a Company CD
>with Derek Bailey and reading quite a bit about him.  Then he made a
>surprise appearance at a tiny club in the outskirts of Santa Barbara,
>CA, and I was hugely disappointed.  It was more like Eddie Van Halen in
>disguise than anything I would associate with Zorn or Bailey.  How does
>he sound on recordings under his own name?

He has an incredible range of interests and styles.  With Praxis, he plays
in sort of a fractured heavy metal way that I think is pretty cool.  He
plays amazing acoustic stuff on _Octave of the Holy Innocents_ with Jonas
Hellborg and Michael Shrieve.  He plays neo-Hendrix power jazz on the
upcoming Arcana 2 (with Tony Williams.)  He plays metal with Giant Robot
(the band, not the CD) and with the Deli Creeps.  He plays ambient death
guitar under the name Death Cube K (new release just out.)

He has three releases under his own name.  The first, on Avant, is
_Bucketheadland_, and is goofy and masturbatory.  The second, on Sony Japan
(no domestic release ever), is _Giant Robot_, and is quite a bit more
interesting.  It is still a little goofy but it is also much better
together.  The third is _Day of the Robot_, much of which is DJ Ninj doing
drum 'n' bass stuff, but when Bucket does play, it is quite good.


Jeff Spirer
Axiom/Material
http://www.hyperreal.org/axiom/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 22:56:03 -0700
From: Schwitterz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pieces

Jeff Spirer wrote:

> He has three releases under his own name.  The first, on Avant, is
> _Bucketheadland_, and is goofy and masturbatory.

When I read the words "goofy and maturbatory" I knew you understood.
Those words capture his performance, both in terms of the music and the
performance.  Some of the recordings you describe sound appealing
["beautiful..heh heh"] nonetheless...thanks.

Sz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 02:33:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Beauty

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, k.   drudge wrote:

> how can one `stretch' the meaning of the word beauty when it is
> defined by reference to the beholder?

Well, it's not obvious to me what this means, but, supposing it's true,
wouldn't we be stretching the meaning by using it in a way not indexed to
a beholder (e.g. "The Parachute material is beautiful, no matter what
anyone thinks, including me.").

Chris Hamilton
Riding His Own Favorite Horse...

P.S.  Keep in mind that not everyone thinks judgments of beauty come down
to individual taste.

P.P.S.  I promise not to get in an argument about this on the list.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 02:42:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Beauty

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Scott Russell wrote:

> My point was just that in singling out beautiful as an unusual word to
> describe something like free improv, you are implying that conventional
> adjectives do not apply, that perhaps another set of words may be more
> appropriate.  I was just suggesting that this need not be the case.


Er, Patrice didn't question the use of conventional adjectives, just the
use of 'beautiful'.  Now, since neither Scott nor I have heard this
material, we aren't in a very good position to side with Patrice or John
here, but one could appreciate the material and not find it beautiful. For
example, I admire Diamanda Galas's Masque of the Red Death material
greatly, but it's not beautiful.  It's both unpleasant and unsatisfying in
the best sense.  'Sublime' might be a better word here, and people should
use it more :^).  Whether the Parachute material is either I don't know,
but I look forward to finding out.

Chris Hamilton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 02:56:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ronald Shannon Jackson Complete Discography

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, Steve Smith wrote:

Thanks for the info, Steve.

> And you may already know this, but Shannon's
> debut recording with Charles Tyler was also brought about by Ornette,
> who refused to allow his own drummer Charles Moffett to play the date.
> Moffett did make that record with Tyler, but on vibraphone while
> Shannon, billed as "Ron Jackson" I believe, played drums.

Is this from Giddins or Grove?  Moffett talks about this session in the
February 1997 issue of _Cadence_, and, while his story's not logically
inconsistent with the above, he doesn't mention Ornette's role:

"Charles wanted me to play drums.  But by that time 'Roundhouse,' a guy
named Ronald Jackson, had made it up to New York City.  I was trying to
help him get started, so I told him to play drums.  I didn't even tell
Charles.  I came to the record date and played orchestral bells.  I told
Charles, 'Meet Ronald Jackson from Texas.  He just got here, man, and
what's going to happen Charles, is, he's going to play drums and I'll play
orchestral bells.'  And Charles said, 'Whatever you got in mind is all
right.'"

Ah, those wacky ESP days...

Chris Hamilton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:14:26 +0900
From: katsuhiro hayasaka <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: masada liner notes (reprise)

"Marc A. Foster" <[e-mail]>
>
>
>On Thursday, August 21, 1997 10:11 AM  Geert Buelens wrote:
>
>On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, mcbride/turner wrote:
>
>> i recently bought masada alef (diw 888) and was taunted by some very
>> thoughtful-looking liner notes, in japanese!  does anyone know where i can
>> find an english translation of these notes?
>>
> Same question here. Maybe this is an old issue for all you die-hards,
>but there must be someone out there how either knows some Japanese, or
>knows where (in the list-archive?) a translation is to be found.
>Thanks,
>
>geert
>
>I have the same thing from Heretic. It seems to be an Avant catalog with some
fairly extensive notes. I'd be glad to send it to anyone who reads Japanese in
exchange for a translation.
>
>Marc Foster
>
>
>
I am a Japanese.So I can read Japanese.But I am not good at English,and those
two very extensive notes are difficult to understand for me at once.
I can translate in part.But I don`t assure you that these are correct^_^;.
Following lists are noted "masada alef"`s liner notes.These liner notes are
written by Hirotaka Kondou(I don`t know who he is).
MASADA :
(Alef)1
JAIR=Eliezel Ben Jair(sp?) who commands the "Masada" rebellion.
BITH ANETH=the house of an anguish
TZOFEH=an observer,a prophet
ASHNAH=a darkness
TAHAH=confused(adj)
KANAH=a ruler
DELIN=a big pot
JANOHAH=the depths
ZWBDI=a gift
IDALAH-ABAL=a place of grief
ZELAH=the ribs

(Beit)2
PIRAM=the rays of the sun
HADASHA=a new moon
LACHISH=a blaze,a passion
RACHAB=latitude,an area
PELIYOT=mystery
ACHSHAPH=Sorry ! I can`t translate.
SANSANAH=Sorry ! I can`t translate.
RAVAYAH=abundant
SAHAR=the moon
TIRZAH=a queen of the moon
SHILHIM=a messenger who holds a sword

(Gimel)3
ZIPHIM=the plague,???
ABIDAN=God`s judgement(or destruction)
KATZATZ=cut off,remove
HAZOR=the inside
NETIVOT=a path
KARAIM=people of KARAI group?
HEKHAL=a hall of Palace
SHELOSHIM=30 rewards(or retributions?) for grief
LEBAOTH=a lion
TANNAIM=the wise and the rabbi of Judaism in BC2-AD3

(Daled)4
MIDBAR=a desert
MAHLAH=a dark place of the moon
ZENAN=a spine(or a thorn),a pain,an irony

Does anyone know the meaning of tunes Masada 5,6,7,8 `s ?

"Heretic" liner notes are very outstanding and important.These liner notes are
written by Toshihiko Shimizu who is a great critic and poet.I am influenced by
him a great deal.He is a rare critic who gets a confidence by Zorn.
I`m sorry,but I don`t have the ability to translate theses."Heretic"liner notes
are appeared in "Jazz Alternative" too.This book is a Toshihiko Shimizu`s critic
notes.To my regret,an English translation does`nt exist.

BTW,is Zorn still a long hair ? If so, why does he lets his hair long ?

Sorry for my bad English.

thanks.

- --
katsuhiro hayasaka  [e-mail]

------------------------------

End of zorn-list Digest V2 #106
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