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zorn-list Digest       Thursday, August 21 1997       Volume 02 : Number 104



In this issue:

    Rene Lussier
    Re: Ground Zero
    Re: Rene Lussier
    RV: N.O.R.M.A
    gastr del sol redux
    zorn-list Digest V2 #95
    Re: CAAAV?
    Re: gastr del sol
    Re: masada liner notes (reprise)
    Re: gastr del sol redux
    Re: Ronald Shannon Jackson Complete Discography
    Re: CAAAV?
    RE: masada liner notes (reprise)
    Re: Parachute years or Masada?
    videos
    Beauty
    Re: Beauty
    Re: Beauty

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:03:57 -0400
From: Alain Potvin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Rene Lussier

At 16:47 20/08/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>----------
>Just picked up a fantastic new cd by an Italian band called
>N.O.R.M.A...features Chris Cutler on drums and various instruments.  If you
>like Zorn this would be worth checking out....I found it at Tower records
>in the jazz section.... Very theatric ensemble work with plenty of humor,
>brilliant brass arrangements and so forth.  Everything is in Italian but it
>seems that they take some Erik Satie compositions and re-arrange >>(I mean
>deconstruct) them !  Extremely creative, humorous and enticing !  A bit
>pricey at $18.99 but well worth the investment....oh yeah, vocalist Phil
>Minton contributes on 2 tracks.  Finally, this set invokes thoughts of
>Zorn's Filmworks stuff....perhaps not quite as brief in nature....??!!=20
>Also similar to some of Canadian guitarist Rene' Lussier's recent large
>ensemble work.... hard to describe but definitely worth checking into
>especially for the Zorn enthusiast...

I did'nt heard the recent large ensemble work by Lussier.(probably on
Ambiance Magnetique label?), but his work with the Fred Frith Guitar
Quartet is really great. The members are:Fred Frith, Ren=E9 Lussier, Nick
Didkowsky (Doctor Nerve), Mark Stewart.

FFGQ "Ayaya Moses"
Ambiances magn=E9tiques-Am051cd

Frith is suppose to play again with Ren=E9 and others fine Quebecers musicia=
n
in the futur. =20

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Caleb Deupree <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ground Zero

>Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:20:45 -0400
>Subject: Re: Ground Zero
>
>Ground Zero is in the process of releasing 3 discs in a series on
>Otomo's label Creativeman.  The first two, "Consume Red"...

I ordered Consume Red from Forced Exposure, and they informed me that it is
being released 'domestically' on ReR.

- --
Caleb T. Deupree
[e-mail]
;; For every complex question there is a simple answer.
;; And it is wrong.  (H. L. Mencken)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:04:56 -0500
From: "Glenn Astarita" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Rene Lussier

- ----------
From: Alain Potvin <[e-mail]>
TI did'nt heard the recent large ensemble work by Lussier.(probably on
Ambiance Magnetique label?), but his work with the Fred Frith Guitar
Quartet is really great. The members are:Fred Frith, Ren=E9 Lussier, Nick
Didkowsky (Doctor Nerve), Mark Stewart.

FFGQ "Ayaya Moses"
Ambiances magn=E9tiques-Am051cd

Frith is suppose to play again with Ren=E9 and others fine Quebecers musi=
cian
in the futur. =20

Its on the Victo label.....Rene' Lussier and Now Orchestra...."Le Tour Du
Bloc"....

glenn



- ----------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:10:59 -0300
From: "cmurat" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RV: N.O.R.M.A

Yes, I have an 1992 edition of a Norma┤s CD. It┤s just wonderful. It had an
original version of Psycho (Bernard Herrmann) and a tribute to Nino Rota┤s
music (Circus Music).
Norma:
Giorgio Fabbri Casadei: electric guitar, prepared guitar, percussion
Gerard Antonio Coatti: trombone
Paola Garavaldi: violin, voice
Paolo Grandi: cello, bass
Roberto Monari: sonic director
Tiziano Popoli: samplers
Massimo Semprini: alto sax
Massimo Simonini: cd, percussion, casio sk1, voice

CACAI MUSIC - 1992 PIERROT LUNAIRE

- ----------
> De: Glenn Astarita <[e-mail]>
> A: [e-mail]
> Asunto: N.O.R.M.A
> Fecha: MiΘrcoles 20 de Agosto de 1997 18:47
>
>
>
> ----------
> Just picked up a fantastic new cd by an Italian band called
> N.O.R.M.A...features Chris Cutler on drums and various instruments.  If
you
> like Zorn this would be worth checking out....I found it at Tower records
> in the jazz section.... Very theatric ensemble work with plenty of humor,
> brilliant brass arrangements and so forth.  Everything is in Italian but
it
> seems that they take some Erik Satie compositions and re-arrange >>(I
mean
> deconstruct) them !  Extremely creative, humorous and enticing !  A bit
> pricey at $18.99 but well worth the investment....oh yeah, vocalist Phil
> Minton contributes on 2 tracks.  Finally, this set invokes thoughts of
> Zorn's Filmworks stuff....perhaps not quite as brief in nature....??!!
> Also similar to some of Canadian guitarist Rene' Lussier's recent large
> ensemble work.... hard to describe but definitely worth checking into
> especially for the Zorn enthusiast...
>
> Glenn
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:26:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: gastr del sol redux

out of curiosity, in light
of the reason O'Rourke gave
for leaving Gastr, what
happens to the Dexter's Cigar
label which he supposedly
is co-running with Grubbs?

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:57:08 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: zorn-list Digest V2 #95

zorn-list Digest      Wednesday, August 13 1997      Volume 02 : Number
095



In this issue:

    Album questions from newbie
    masada 4 & 1
    Praxis CD
    Re: Album questions from newbie
    Dave Douglas
    Re: Praxis CDFrom gsg
From: gsg
To: [e-mail]
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:31:37 EST
Subject: Re: thinking about you
References: <19978134160441@>
X-Status: Unsent
X-Mailer: Juno 1.00

Kenaya,

hey, whats up? how are you??

sorry i havent responded sooner....but things have been pretty hectic
this week, ive been working later than usual....end of the summer is
always hectic at this place, so i dont think i'll have time this week to
hang out.
maybe when your home from school on a break we can meet up......let me
know

so, stay well, good luck with school...and talk to ya soon

Geoff :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:34:45 +1000 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CAAAV?

Hi,

On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> When Zorn had problems with CAAAV, he asked Shimmy to stop selling the record.
> I don't know why (or maybe I know too well...), but Shimmy decided to sell it
> again last October... Yes, knowing that Tzadik was planning a reissue with a
> politically correct design to please the CAAAV...

Err; excuse my ignorance - but what in the hell is a CAAAV? Can't see as
how anything  good can come of an acronym like that. I'd be muchly obliged
if someone doesn't mind to clue me up.

Cheers,

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:48:00 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: gastr del sol

>> Also there is a new O'Rourke disc out on John Fahey's revenant label.

>true again. i'm not sure how
>many people may like the
>O'Rourke recording, but i personally
>thought it was amazing.
>acoustic guitars and hurdy-gurdy drones.

Yes, great stuff.  Similar, I'm told, to the set he played at last
year's Yttrium Festival (TotE) in Chicago.  Jim also has an even more
recent release than this called "Bad Timing" on Drag City.  If it's not
actually out yet, it should be very soon.  It's been called his "pop opera",
for whatever that's worth .......


- -Patrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:10:37 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Geert Buelens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: masada liner notes (reprise)

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, mcbride/turner wrote:

> i recently bought masada alef (diw 888) and was taunted by some very
> thoughtful-looking liner notes, in japanese!  does anyone know where i can
> find an english translation of these notes?
>
 Same question here. Maybe this is an old issue for all you die-hards,
but there must be someone out there how either knows some Japanese, or
knows where (in the list-archive?) a translation is to be found.
Thanks,

geert

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:48:33 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: gastr del sol redux

SUGAR in their vitamins? wrote:

> out of curiosity, in light
> of the reason O'Rourke gave
> for leaving Gastr, what
> happens to the Dexter's Cigar
> label which he supposedly
> is co-running with Grubbs?
>
> hasta.
>
> Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.
> natURE.

Jim didn't say, but I'll ask.BTW I've always enjoy your sig... where's
it from, if I might ask?

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:46:29 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ronald Shannon Jackson Complete Discography

Christopher Hamilton wrote:

> Steve--
>
>      Great work on the discography!  It's ... short.  Seriously, I'm
> shocked at how little Jackson's recorded for a drummer of his stature.
>
> I'm particularly struck by the fact that _Dancing in Your Head_ was
> his
> first record after his brief tenure with Ayler.  Does anyone know why
> he
> took such a long break from recording?

Gary Giddins, in an essay reprinted in his book "Rhythm-a-ning," wrote,
"Alll the pieces seemed to be falling into place.  When Ayler wasn't
working, there were gigs with Betty Carter.  Even Charles Mingus was
willing to take him on as a second drummer concentrating on timpani.
Yet a combination of bad habits and economic considerations prompted
Jackson's decision to move to Queens, where he buried himself in
lucrative socials - weddings, bar mitzvahs, local bars.  Jackson was in
his early thirties and, despite all his experience, uteerly unknown
except to a small nucleus of musicians when, in 1974, pianist Onaje
Allan Gumbs initiated him into Buddhist chanting: the phrase nam myoho
renge kyo, repeated for an hour at a stretch.  A year later Shannon was
having breakfast in a Greenwich Village restaurant when who should wallk
in but Ornette Coleman - in search of a drummer."

The essay then goes on to describe how the tenures with Coleman and
Taylor made Jackson realize the value of organization of musicians and
musical materials (as opposed to the free-for-all bash of Ayler), which,
in combination with the funk he played with Ulmer shortly thereafter,
brought him to the conception of his Decoding Society.

Interestingly enough, prior to the Ayler gig, Jackson played with
(according to the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz) Mingus, Carter, Stanley
Turrentine, Jackie McLean, McCoy Tyner, Kenny Dorham, and Joe
Henderson's big band.  And you may already know this, but Shannon's
debut recording with Charles Tyler was also brought about by Ornette,
who refused to allow his own drummer Charles Moffett to play the date.
Moffett did make that record with Tyler, but on vibraphone while
Shannon, billed as "Ron Jackson" I believe, played drums.

Steve "doin' my homework" Smith
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:49:20 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: CAAAV?

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:34:45 +1000 (EST)  James Douglas Knox wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> >
> > When Zorn had problems with CAAAV, he asked Shimmy to stop selling the record.
> > I don't know why (or maybe I know too well...), but Shimmy decided to sell it
> > again last October... Yes, knowing that Tzadik was planning a reissue with a
> > politically correct design to please the CAAAV...
>
> Err; excuse my ignorance - but what in the hell is a CAAAV? Can't see as
> how anything  good can come of an acronym like that. I'd be muchly obliged
> if someone doesn't mind to clue me up.

CAAAV: Commitee Against Anti-Asian Violence.

    Patrice.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:55:41 -0500
From: "Marc A. Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: masada liner notes (reprise)

On Thursday, August 21, 1997 10:11 AM  Geert Buelens wrote:

On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, mcbride/turner wrote:

> i recently bought masada alef (diw 888) and was taunted by some very
> thoughtful-looking liner notes, in japanese!  does anyone know where i =
can
> find an english translation of these notes?
>=20
 Same question here. Maybe this is an old issue for all you die-hards,
but there must be someone out there how either knows some Japanese, or
knows where (in the list-archive?) a translation is to be found.
Thanks,

geert

I have the same thing from Heretic. It seems to be an Avant catalog with =
some fairly extensive notes. I'd be glad to send it to anyone who reads =
Japanese in exchange for a translation.

Marc Foster

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:51:35 +0000
From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Parachute years or Masada?

- --MimeMultipartBoundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

john shiurba wrote:
>
> > Regarding the parachute box,  extended bouts of skronking and scraping
> > a la Derek Bailey and AMM? If so is it any more difficult than 'Yankees'
> > for instance (which is curious but interesting)? On the other hand is
> > the music anything like Cobra (which I find very entertaining indeed)?
> > Or is it further away from either?
>
> I've heard this material, and consider it to be among Zorn's most
> important, and most beautiful music. However I detect a wariness in your
> tone when speaking of the British free improv stuff, and 'Yankees'-- in
> which case I would advise you to steer clear of this stuff. If your tastes in
> Zorn's music include Masada/Naked City/Painkiller
> but NOT Yankees/ Art of Memory/ Classic Guide to Strategy
> then this will probably be 7 CDs of stuff you will not enjoy.

Actually I do enjoy British improv very much and I do have Art of
Memory, Strategy and Yankees. I also have a tape of Zorn and 'company'
doing some free improv which reminds me a whole lot of Derek Bailey's
Company and is presumably based upon it.

My reason for asking for a description of this material was to clarify
exactly what to expect. I'm sure there's no one on this list who
wouldn't welcome a 6 or 7 disc set of unreleased NC, Painkiller, Big
Gundown or Masada type Zorn but I suspected that the Parachute stuff
would be a bit more difficult. Having said that, who listens to Zorn
because it's easy?
>
> The Parachute music is extremely fragmented, Zorn was obsessed with the
> most miniscule of details during this period. Each sound is exploited for its
> own momentary value, and then the focus moves on... and in that way the
> music is rather similar to Naked City. But rest assured the music sounds
> nothing like Naked City, or any other contemporary Zorn stuff.

Patrice said the following about John's comment:

Beautiful? Hum... Intellectually challenging? yes. Intriguing? yes.
Exciting
and demanding? yes. But beautiful, really? :-).

I have to wonder why free improv can't be 'beautiful' in the
conventional sense? I have a double album of Anthony Braxton and Derek
Bailey which has a passage on it I find extremely beautiful, where they
both engage in extended droning (Bailey using controlled feedback and
Braxton doing a kind of circular breathing extended skronk) and I
confess I find it oddly affecting.

Finally I though the following comment from Frith re Archery was
especially insightful:

Can it be said, for example, that this piece constitutes 'an
analysis of an improvisation' anymore that an improvisation constitutes
an analysis of an improvisation? And shouldn't any improvised piece
require the same alertness and care in making choices as we were
required to exercise in 'Archery'?

Scott Russell
- --
Without theory all we have is opinion and shopping.  Chris Cutler
- --MimeMultipartBoundary--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 19:53:49 +0200 (MESZ)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: videos

can anyone name a good source for PAL videos (music and others) on the net...
i searched the net for hours and didnt find anything good

BJOERN

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:29:46 -0700
From: Marlene McMullen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Beauty

      I have to wonder why free improv can't be 'beautiful' in the
conventional sense? I have a double album of Anthony Braxton and Derek
Bailey which has a passage on it I find extremely beautiful, where they
both engage in extended droning (Bailey using controlled feedback and
Braxton doing a kind of circular breathing extended skronk) and I
confess I find it oddly affecting.


Hendrix was once a guest on the Dick Cavett Show.  Dick asked him about =
the weird way he played the national anthem at Woodstock and how he felt =
about people thinking it was disrespectful.  Jimi looked puzzled and =
said, "Weird and disrespectful?  I thought it was beautiful."

[The years have distorted the details of that exchange, but that conveys =
the meaning].

I find the genre we are discussing extremely beautiful, and extremely =
lasting.  It rewards repeated listenings more than many other genres.  =
And this is paradoxical because a purist might say free-improv is only =
for the immediate moment.  The beauty of it for me is that it requires a =
transformation of the usual ways of listening to hear the beauty of it.

BINAURALITY by the King Ubu Orchestra remains one of my lasting =
favorites in this genre...highly recommended.

Sz

~~~~~to strengthen what is right in a fool is a holy task~~~~~
             I Ching...Hexagram 4...Meng [Youthful Folly]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:58:43 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Beauty

    A precision before this thread degenerates to:

    WHY CAN'T MUSIC BE BEAUTIFUL?

On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:29:46 -0700  Marlene McMullen wrote:
>
>       I have to wonder why free improv can't be 'beautiful' in the
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think people are riding their favorite horse...

My question to John Shiuarba about his use of the qualifier "beautiful"
was targetting early Zorn/Parachute stuff.

Somebody later transformed my well-defined statement to a one emcompassing
all free improv. This is not what I said.

    Patrice.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:23:13 +0000
From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Beauty

- --MimeMultipartBoundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>         A precision before this thread degenerates to:
>
>         WHY CAN'T MUSIC BE BEAUTIFUL?

Please, we don't want to go down this path!
>
> On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:29:46 -0700  Marlene McMullen wrote:
> >
> >       I have to wonder why free improv can't be 'beautiful' in the
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I think people are riding their favorite horse...
>
> My question to John Shiuarba about his use of the qualifier "beautiful"
> was targetting early Zorn/Parachute stuff.

This was my point, why does 'beautiful' have to be a qualifier?
>
> Somebody later transformed my well-defined statement to a one emcompassing
> all free improv. This is not what I said.
>
OK, I made a generalisation based on your comment, if I had asked why
the 'parachute stuff' couldn't be beautiful, would that have been any
different?

I have no axe to grind here and I certainly don't want to start us all
off on a thread we'd rather avoid, after all once we've gotten to where
the beauty is in Merzbow there ain't really any place left to go.


Scott Russell.
- --
Without  theory all we have  is opinion  and  shopping.  Chris Cutler
- --MimeMultipartBoundary--

------------------------------

End of zorn-list Digest V2 #104
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