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To:        [e-mail]
Subject:   zorn-list Digest V2 #67
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zorn-list Digest           Tuesday, 11 March 1997       Volume 02 : Number 067

In this issue:

    cynical hysterie hour
    Re: cynical hysterie hour
    Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #66
    Bloodcount in St. Louis
    Re: cynical hysterie hour
    Re: Burroughs
    Re: Burroughs
    Re: Burroughs
    Braxton's Dortmund Quartet
    Disco Volante
    Re: Disco Volante
    Re: Disco Volante
    chance vs. indeterminacy
    steve swell
    Mixing It
    Re: chance vs. indeterminacy --> And also Combination !
    Apologies
    New Fred Frith Album on Tzadik ?
    Re: chance vs. indeterminacy

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 08:51:00 -0500
Subject: cynical hysterie hour

> can any one help me ?
>
> is cynical hysterie hour - john zorn still available
> does anyone know where i can get a copy from ?

At the risk of starting unfounded rumors, I could swear I read recently
that Cynical Hysterie Hour would be part of a forthcoming Filmworks
disc.


------------------------------

From: Robert Pleshar <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:28:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: cynical hysterie hour

At 01:54 PM 3/9/97 -0800, Patrice Roussel wrote:
>
>Zorn has been trying to get the rights back but Sony/CBS did never
>take the time to answer his letters!
>
>Does anybody even care at CBS/Sony?
>

He ought to just bootleg his own record. I wonder if Sony would ever even
find out.

If I had known it was going to be so rare, I would have bought more than one
copy. Someone offerred me $100 for it once. I'd be willing to tape it for
people who need a copy.

Ralph
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:01:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: zorn-list Digest V2 #66

t-

are you on this digest? it's pretty cool. i've been on it for a year or so
now, i just assumed you were, but maybe you didn't know about it? if so, here
goes:

oh, also, danny listening party tonite 7:30 @ spaceland. hope you can come!
- --d

<<ABOUT THE ZORN LIST
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Thanks for joining!  Enjoy!

mike rizzi>>




------------------------------

From: Nils Jacobson <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:28:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Bloodcount in St. Louis

Yes, the rumors are true.  The show is Weds. 8pm at the Gargoyle on the
Washington University main campus, two sets for $5 or free if you have a
Wash U ID.

- -Nils





------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Steve Smith)
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:26:54 -0500
Subject: Re: cynical hysterie hour

>> can any one help me ?
>>
>> is cynical hysterie hour - john zorn still available
>> does anyone know where i can get a copy from ?
>
>At the risk of starting unfounded rumors, I could swear I read recently
>that Cynical Hysterie Hour would be part of a forthcoming Filmworks
>disc.

Close.  The volume of Filmworks being issued this month by Tzadik (3, I
think?) has a selection of cues from an early working version of Cynical.
The notes refer to the Sony Japan release of Cynical Hysterie Hour as
having gone out of print a week later... that may be an exaggeration but
not much.  But Zorn has not been able to get the rights to reproduce it, no
one even seems to return calls.  I think he's even jokingly suggested
simply bootlegging it. :)

It's a nice disc, about half an hour long, teeming with the typical
Downtowners of that period.  I spent about $40 for my copy about 10 years
ago... Manny at Lunch for Your Ears said "if you don't buy this now you'll
NEVER see it again" and of course he was right.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Smith
Public Relations Manager
Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works
74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 [phone] ext. 22
[e-mail]            http://www.knittingfactory.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:45:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Burroughs

On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Scott Russell wrote:

> I realise I may be running the risk of covering old territory but has
> anybody considered the influence of WIlliam Burroughs on Zorn et al?
>
> I can't remember any specific references (apart from the mention of
> Blade Runner in the notes to Spillane) in Zorn's case but his whole
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you running together Burroughs and Philip K. Dick here?

> approach reeks of Burroughs; The cut and paste, the Cagean use of
> chance operations, use of apparently nonsensical vocals. All of this
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Has Zorn actually used these?  If so, I'm surprised, given his criticisms
of Cage as recently discussed here.

> points to Burroughs' cut up technique.

The above quibbles aside, I certainly do see the connection.  Zorn
presumably is at least somewhat familiar with Burroughs, but it seems to
me that the similarities you point out could be derived in Zorn's work
from other sources.  For example, Zorn may have gotten the cut-and-paste
aesthetic from the same place Burroughs did: modernist painters.  Zorn's
version of the approach also apparently has roots in Stockhausen's "moment
form" approach, about which I know only what I've read but which Zorn
himself has cited as an influence (and which, I believe, predates _Naked
Lunch_). A more obvious antecedent than Burroughs for the nonsense vocals
would be the sound poetry of early Dada performances.
     I don't disagree with the connections you draw.  It's just that these
ideas have been around in various forms for much of the century, and I'd
hesitate to assume there's any direct influence of Burroughs on Zorn
without more evidence.  Now some of Zorn's collaborators certainly have
been influenced by Burroughs.  Bill Laswell, for example, has frequently
cited Burroughs as a direct influence (and also worked with him of
course).

> Further out still is Otomo
> Yoshihide whom I reckon totally embodies the 'language as a virus'
> concept. Think about Night Before the Death of the Sampling Virus. A
> whole disc of found sounds, collages and explosions of sonic violence
> and very little actual music

This use of the virus metaphor in sampling culture seems pretty widespread
(cf. DJ Spooky's liner notes, K. Martin's _Macro Dub Infection_
compilations) and I'd bet it does come straight out of Burroughs.

Chris Hamilton

P.S.  After writing the above, I checked out Zorn's profile in the
_Redbird_, which sure enough does mention Burroughs as "part of the
tradition that inspires and feeds Zorn's creativity."  I'd say that counts
as part of the "more evidence" I was looking for above.  So there you go.
     Interesting topic, Scott.




------------------------------

From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:16:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Burroughs

On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote:

> > I can't remember any specific references (apart from the mention of
> > Blade Runner in the notes to Spillane) in Zorn's case but his whole
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Are you running together Burroughs and Philip K. Dick here?

if memory serves, the Dick book
was originally titled something
like "Do Androids Dream of
Electric Sheep?". it was only
after the book was turned into
the film "Blade Runner" that the
book title changed. i'm sure
someone can correct me if i'm
horribly wrong...

whereas, Burroughs did write a
screenplay book (in the '70s, i
believe) titled "Blade Runner"
about teenaged bisexual boys
working as drug runners in an
appocalyptic, post-world war III
America.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.



------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:29:55 +0000
Subject: Re: Burroughs

Christopher
Thanks for your comments

> > Blade Runner in the notes to Spillane) in Zorn's case but his whole
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Are you running together Burroughs and Philip K. Dick here?

Remember that the original title of Blade Runner was Do Androids Dream
of Electric Sheep?, the movie title was pinched from Burroughs (I
believe it's somewhere in Naked Lunch but I wouldn't want to bet on
it!). As far as links between Burroughs and Dick goes, well, that's
another tangent entirely...
>
> > approach reeks of Burroughs; The cut and paste, the Cagean use of
> > chance operations, use of apparently nonsensical vocals. All of this
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Has Zorn actually used these?  If so, I'm surprised, given his criticisms
> of Cage as recently discussed here.

Point taken, but the Game pieces do utilise a certain amount of
chance, I was also thinking of how the game pieces allow some pretty
weird juxtapositions. As for nonsensical vocals, well can you tell
what Yamatsuka/Yamatanka (or whatever he calls himself these days) is
on about?
>
> > points to Burroughs' cut up technique.
>
> The above quibbles aside, I certainly do see the connection.  Zorn
> presumably is at least somewhat familiar with Burroughs, but it seems to
> me that the similarities you point out could be derived in Zorn's work
> from other sources.  For example, Zorn may have gotten the cut-and-paste
> aesthetic from the same place Burroughs did: modernist painters.

Absolutely true.

 Zorn's
> version of the approach also apparently has roots in Stockhausen's "moment
> form" approach, about which I know only what I've read but which Zorn
> himself has cited as an influence (and which, I believe, predates _Naked
> Lunch_).

True again.

A more obvious antecedent than Burroughs for the nonsense vocals
> would be the sound poetry of early Dada performances.
>      I don't disagree with the connections you draw.  It's just that these
> ideas have been around in various forms for much of the century, and I'd
> hesitate to assume there's any direct influence of Burroughs on Zorn
> without more evidence.  Now some of Zorn's collaborators certainly have
> been influenced by Burroughs.  Bill Laswell, for example, has frequently
> cited Burroughs as a direct influence (and also worked with him of
> course).

I agree with all your points. There is an 'in the air' quality about
all this stuff so it is possible to argue that many different people
arrived at the same techniques independently. I was thinking more
specifically of Zorn doing with music what Burroughs did with text;
though perhaps John Oswald would be closer since he literally 'folds'
music. It struck me that, with Zorn's varied array of influences, it
was unlikely he wouldn't have been in some way influenced.
>
> > Further out still is Otomo
> > Yoshihide whom I reckon totally embodies the 'language as a virus'
> > concept. Think about Night Before the Death of the Sampling Virus. A
> > whole disc of found sounds, collages and explosions of sonic violence
> > and very little actual music
>
> This use of the virus metaphor in sampling culture seems pretty widespread
> (cf. DJ Spooky's liner notes, K. Martin's _Macro Dub Infection_
> compilations) and I'd bet it does come straight out of Burroughs.

I know both the discs you refer to you could also add Sub Rosa's 10
per cent Burroughs tribute compilation which directly links WSB with
underground dance music. It seems to me that Otomo is more
'Burroughsian' than these in that his collages are live and improvised
as opposed to constructed. He really allows for chance to bring
together disparate elements. Where other, more 'produced' artists
create soundscapes for you to explore, Otomo's sounds explode at you
without much in the way of predetermined logic (I presume he has to
decide which discs to take with him, but beyond that...).
>
> Chris Hamilton
>
> P.S.  After writing the above, I checked out Zorn's profile in the
> _Redbird_, which sure enough does mention Burroughs as "part of the
> tradition that inspires and feeds Zorn's creativity."  I'd say that counts
> as part of the "more evidence" I was looking for above.

I don't have Redbird so haven't seen the notes. I'm glad you found
this reference though.

Bye for now.

Scott Russell.


------------------------------

From: Marc Lambert <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:02:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Braxton's Dortmund Quartet

Someone posted a request for this OOP Hat Art cd (which is one of my
favorites) so I took the liberty of putting a copy on hold at our local
record store for you. It's under my name "Lambert" so call and give them a
credit card for them to send it out to you. Schoolkid's Records (Ann
Arbor, MI) is at 313-994-8031. They had only one copy ($14.99) so won't
hold it for very long. Enjoy. Marc.

------------------------------

From: Peter Risser <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 15:14:37 -0500
Subject: Disco Volante

- -- [ From: Peter Risser * EMC.Ver #2.5.03 ] --

I was watching Thunderball the other night and noticed that the bad guys'
ship in the movie is called the Disco Volante.  For what it's worth.

But, more importantly, didn't most of the guys from Mr. Bungle do a side
project?  What was it called?  Has it been released?  Is it worth buying?
How does it compare to DV?

_ peter
- --
=====================
Group 42, Inc.
www.group42.com
[phone]
=====================



------------------------------

From: [e-mail]
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:18:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Disco Volante

The bungle side-project is called Secret Cheifs 3.  It's out, and is
really good.  A lot of noise, but worth getting if you are a true
bungaloid.  It's heifitz, trevor, and scummy.  Scummy wrote most of the
stuff.  Some other members make apperances.  It was $10 at the last bungle
show in San Francisco, but I have no idea how much it is in record stores.
Regular price I'd assume.

------------------------------

From: Philip Reno <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:42:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: Disco Volante

> I was watching Thunderball the other night and noticed that the bad guys'
> ship in the movie is called the Disco Volante.  For what it's worth.
>
I think 'Thunderball' and 'Disco Volante' were two of the tracks from
Locus Solus. Furthermore, there 2(or 3?) 'songs' with James Bond
references...

------------------------------

From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:01:43 -0500
Subject: chance vs. indeterminacy

>Point taken, but the Game pieces do utilise a certain amount of chance

You have to be very careful about the difference between "chance" and
"indeterminacy" when talking about Cage. He (and several others, myself
included) considered "chance" the action of using chance methods in
composing the work - i.e. casting I Ching hexagrams or rolling dice.
"Chance" happened *before* the piece ever got handed to the musicians.

"Indeterminacy" is a whole different ballgame. "Indeterminate" scores leave
certain (or all) elements of the piece up to the whim of the performer.
This could be within certain constraints or with no rules at all.

With this in mind, Zorn's compositions are almost never chance, and nearly
always indeterminate (I think this is what you meant anyway). There is a
fine line too between improvisatory and indeterminate, especially in Zorn's
terms. For example, in Cobra, the process by which instructions and
flash-cards are given and requested is indeterminate; the improvisatory
part comes with the interpretation of those instructions. By the same
token, you could always call improvisation an 'indeterminate' act. So you
see, they're not mutually exclusive, but they're not synonyms either.

I wouldn't make this point if Cage himself hadn't emphasized it as well.
And since you're making the comparison, it's worth while to examine the
terminology and philosophy behind it.

I'm not sure if you can apply this to Burroughs's cut-ups or not. The
cut-up is usually constructed only once. It's not so much a performance as
it is a sculpture, so it's arguable whether or not the technique (in Cagean
terms) would be considered chance methods or indeterminate methods. The
lines between in this case grow very cloudy indeed.

Matthew


| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
m-a-t-t-h-e-w r-o-s-s d-a-v-i-s                university of maryland
http://www.butterfly.net/mozart                       school of music
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |




------------------------------

From: Marc Lambert <[e-mail]>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:32:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: steve swell

Mr. Olivier, Steve Swell does a fine job on Michael Formanek's new
release Nature of the Beast (Enja) also with Dave Douglas, Jim Black,
Chris Speed, Tom Malaby, and Tim Berne on a few tracks. Excellent set.

Marc Lambert
Jazz Director, WCBN-FM
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor



------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:45:03 +0000
Subject: Mixing It

Mixing It last night was really good, though I fell asleep towards the
end! Excellent deconstruction of 'What's new pussycat?' by Shelly
Hirsch from a forthcoming Burt Bacharach covers disc organised by
Zorn. Wonder if this is the same as the forthcoming Tzadik one. Also
played some tracks from 'State of the Nation' which were excellent,
I'm looking forward to a tape of this. Also interviewed Ekki Sven Tur,
who composes in a variety of styles at once, very interesting.

Bye for now.

Sc.


------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David FENECH)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 10:28:45 +0100
Subject: Re: chance vs. indeterminacy --> And also Combination !

  > You have to be very careful about the difference between "chance" and
  > "indeterminacy" when talking about Cage. He (and several others, myself
  > included) considered "chance" the action of using chance methods in
  > composing the work - i.e. casting I Ching hexagrams or rolling dice.
  > "Chance" happened *before* the piece ever got handed to the musicians.
  >
  > "Indeterminacy" is a whole different ballgame. "Indeterminate" scores leave
  > certain (or all) elements of the piece up to the whim of the performer.
  > This could be within certain constraints or with no rules at all.

Yes .

I would also add "COMBINATION" to the list. The OULIPO movement led by R.Queneau
made the distinction between purely RANDOM operations and COMBINATION ones.

Game pieces are part of OUMUPO (OUvroir de la MUsique POtentielle - OPener of Potential MUsic)

     --------------------------
     David FENECH / DEMOSAURUS.
     87,  rue  du point du jour
     92100 Boulogne Billancourt
     F    r     a    n    c   e
     --------------------------
     Email    : [e-mail]
     --------------------------





------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:38:30 +0000
Subject: Apologies

Dear all
You have just received a message from me about the Radio programme
Mixing It. Unfortunately, this was intended for someone else, I
apologise for this unwanted electronic junk mail. If, however, someone
knows about the Bacharach tribute album I refer to I'd appreciate any
information you could provide...

Cheers

Scott Russell


------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (David FENECH)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 97 11:12:58 +0100
Subject: New Fred Frith Album on Tzadik ?

Hello all.

I heard about a new Fred Frith album coming out on the Tzadik label. Do you have some news about it ?
When is it out ? What material ? I confess , Fred is one of my TOP 10 artists ...

  David FENECH



------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:04:34 +0000
Subject: Re: chance vs. indeterminacy

Matthew Ross Davis wrote:

> You have to be very careful about the difference between "chance" and
> "indeterminacy" when talking about Cage. He (and several others, myself
> included) considered "chance" the action of using chance methods in
> composing the work - i.e. casting I Ching hexagrams or rolling dice.
> "Chance" happened *before* the piece ever got handed to the musicians.
>
> "Indeterminacy" is a whole different ballgame. "Indeterminate" scores leave
> certain (or all) elements of the piece up to the whim of the performer.
> This could be within certain constraints or with no rules at all.
>
> With this in mind, Zorn's compositions are almost never chance, and nearly
> always indeterminate (I think this is what you meant anyway). There is a
> fine line too between improvisatory and indeterminate, especially in Zorn's
> terms. For example, in Cobra, the process by which instructions and
> flash-cards are given and requested is indeterminate; the improvisatory
> part comes with the interpretation of those instructions. By the same
> token, you could always call improvisation an 'indeterminate' act. So you
> see, they're not mutually exclusive, but they're not synonyms either.
>
> I wouldn't make this point if Cage himself hadn't emphasized it as well.
> And since you're making the comparison, it's worth while to examine the
> terminology and philosophy behind it.
>
> I'm not sure if you can apply this to Burroughs's cut-ups or not. The
> cut-up is usually constructed only once. It's not so much a performance as
> it is a sculpture, so it's arguable whether or not the technique (in Cagean
> terms) would be considered chance methods or indeterminate methods. The
> lines between in this case grow very cloudy indeed.
>
> Matthew

Thanks Matthew

You are splitting some very fine hairs indeed! Perhaps I shouldn't
have mentioned Cage in reference to Zorn, it seems to raise some
hackles.My comments about Zorn's (alleged) use of chance were meant on
a fairly general level, however I do agree with your comparison of
Burrough's cut ups to sculpture. I wonder, if Burroughs had turned to
music (I mean as an instrumenalist rather than a 'reader') as well as
texts and visuals, if he would have extended his technique to
incorporate time, which is essentially the distinction we are making
here. Zorn, Shea, Otomo etc have more 'information' to play with;ie
music has volume, velocity, texture, time etc where text is obviously
fixed. I think Otomo's approach is closest to Burroughs.

What do you think?

Scott Russell.


------------------------------

End of zorn-list Digest V2 #67
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