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zorn-list Digest         Thursday, 6 February 1997     Volume 02 : Number 061

In this issue:

    Re: Horvitz show, Julian Priester
    Live Tapes
    masada 4 - confirmed
    Re: masada 4 - confirmed
    Re: Zorn book blurb
    Zorn pans Cage, was Zorn book blurb
    Re: Zorn book blurb
    Re: Zorn book blurb
    Re: Zorn book blurb
    Great or not so great
    Re: Zorn book blurb
    PhiBa-improv: Philadelphia/Baltimore Improv List
    Coleman/Radical Jewish Culture
    Re: Zorn book blurb
    Re: Great or not so great
    "New Music Philadelphia / Baltimore"
    Re: Zorn book blurb
    Intergalactic Maiden Ballet (was: a new release)
    Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the zorn-list
or zorn-list-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Todd Bramy <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:39:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Horvitz show, Julian Priester

>> I saw Kang play this last Saturday at the OK Hotel here in Seattle, as a
>> player in Wayne Horvitz's latest "four-and-one ensemble".  Here is the
>> lineup:
>> Wayne Horvitz: piano, electronics
>> Eyvind Kang: violin
>> Julian Priester: trombone
>> Reggie Watts: keyboards
>> Tucker Martine: electronics & processing
>
>Seeing Julian Priester's name in this lineup is a very pleasant surprise.
>Is he living in Seattle now?  Is this an ongoing band?  Will this lineup
>be recording?  Inquiring minds want to know...

As far as I know, Priester has been in residence here (in Seattle) at
Cornish College of the Arts for several years. I'm not sure how long, or if
he still is, but I can easily find out tomorrow (or maybe someone else
could fill in the blanks).

By the way, anyone have any idea how OLD that guy is? He looked younger
than some of the 25 year olds in that band.



`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
"One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose
sight of the shore for a very long time."
Andre Gide
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Kick Media
Todd & Camarie Bramy            http://www.oz.net/~tbramy
Seattle, Wa                               [e-mail]
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````



------------------------------

From: Scott Russell <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 09:52:52 +0000
Subject: Live Tapes

Thanks to everyone who responded to my tape swap suggestion. It seems
that there is interest but not a great deal of material. I must
confess that I am in the same category. Living, as I do, in the West
of Scotland my chances of seeing the artists I'm interested in are
slim to the point of non existence. I do have a fair amount of Zappa
live stuff if that's of any interest, though I feel this may be a bit
mainstream for you guys.

Scott Russell

------------------------------

From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:35:18 GMT0BST
Subject: masada 4 - confirmed

I know you still won't believe it until it's in your cd draw, but i
rang harmonia mundi (who dist. DIW in the UK) and they said that
masada 4 is to be released at the end of Feb. I also heard from depth
charge records in the uk (who advertise masada 4 as being available
in the Feb. issue of 'the wire') and they confirmed that they'll have
copies to sell. I don't have any info. for releases in other
countries. Those non-believers who sent comments about 100 78 rpms
etc. should be ashamed of your lack of faith!

------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 08:50:25 -0800
Subject: Re: masada 4 - confirmed

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:35:18 GMT0BST  DR S WILKIE wrote:
>
> I know you still won't believe it until it's in your cd draw, but i
> rang harmonia mundi (who dist. DIW in the UK) and they said that
> masada 4 is to be released at the end of Feb. I also heard from depth
> charge records in the uk (who advertise masada 4 as being available
> in the Feb. issue of 'the wire') and they confirmed that they'll have
> copies to sell. I don't have any info. for releases in other
> countries. Those non-believers who sent comments about 100 78 rpms
> etc. should be ashamed of your lack of faith!
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, David has not pitty for the rest of us :-).

    Patrice (still skeptic, even more after David's e-mail).

------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:53:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote:

> > Wondering if someone could post the Cage comments so we could chop those
> > up?  I'm currently "enCaged" in my Music Lit seminar.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Which Cage comments?

The ones in which Zorn reportedly "dissed" Cage and/or his work.

Bob


------------------------------

From: Larry Solomon <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 14:13:46 -0700
Subject: Zorn pans Cage, was Zorn book blurb

There may be more than one source for this, but the one that I'm
familiar with is an essay that everyone can read on the Web. It is in
the online journal *Postmodern Culture* at the following URL:

http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/issue.195/mcneilly.195.html

In this essay, the author Kevin McNeilly, compares Zorn with Cage, and
he says that Zorn dismissed Cage as a "boring old fart", and that his
music is "dead, lifeless, music".

These statements, are, of course, rhetorical, and Zorn is quoted no
further to explain why he thinks of Cage's music this way, or why he
thinks Cage, as a person, was "a boring old fart". It would be
interesting to know if Zorn ever gave any further explanation of these
blunt and callous remarks.
- --

Best!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts            http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (david m rothbaum)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:27:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb

>This gets into the concept that context is important to understanding art, a
>concept that I believe originated with the intellectual elite-ization of
>art.  In fact, art that is "great" transcends all reference points, all
>context, all social boundaries, and that is its greatness.  It brings people
>together regardless of where they started and where they end up.

the point i was making is that without a historical perspective of some
sort you are basically saying the said composer is inventing music in and
of itself.  to say you cant hear ornette and the very old klezmer tradition
in masada is silly.  im not however saying that it doesnt transend its
influences. the only time i have been able to see masada i would describe
as an almost spiritual experience, my heart palpitated,  but i also
disticntly heard misheberekh and  ahava raba....  i dont think aknowleging
an influence in someones music is criminal but id also like to say that if
i hadnt heard ornette's infulence or reqognized any klezmer scales i would
have had the same experience.



david



------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Herb Levy)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:31:24 -0800
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb

>On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote:
>
>> > Wondering if someone could post the Cage comments so we could chop those
>> > up?  I'm currently "enCaged" in my Music Lit seminar.
>> >
>> > Bob
>>
>> Which Cage comments?
>
>The ones in which Zorn reportedly "dissed" Cage and/or his work.
>
>Bob

I no longer have the Option article I was thinking of , but at

<http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/issue.195/mcneilly.195.html>

you'll find it cited and quoted.  It's Josef Woodward's "Zornography" in
Option, July/August 1987.

Here's an excerpt from the  McNeilly article (called Ugly Beauty: John Zorn
and the Politics of Postmodern Music):

> Such music, which Attali approves of as the harbinger of a new age of
>composition and of >listener-involvement in autonomous musical production,
>freed form the aesthetic and social restraints of the >recording industry,
>Zorn calls the "dead, lifeless music" of "boring old farts," of whom, for
>him, Cage is a >leading example.

McNeilly's article is an excellent example of the problem of taking Zorn's
frequent aesthetic pronouncements (whether positive or negative) at face
value.

The entire paper is built around a few polemical quotes that don't seem to
reflect fully the dynamic of Zorn's considered ideas about composers who,
on the one hand Zorn was willing to dismiss in an interview as "boring old
farts," but on the other hand, has memorialized in a major work for piano
and orchestra.



Herb Levy
[e-mail]



------------------------------

From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 14:03:42 -0800
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:53:00 -0800 (PST)  Bob Boster wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Yeah-shure, Nah...er...ve'-so'n wrote:
>
> > > Wondering if someone could post the Cage comments so we could chop those
> > > up?  I'm currently "enCaged" in my Music Lit seminar.
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > Which Cage comments?
>
> The ones in which Zorn reportedly "dissed" Cage and/or his work.

I think that what annoys Zorn more than anything else are Cage fans who
used to gobble everything from him as from divine origin.

For him, Cage is a great composer and thinker, but that does not mean that
you have to take everything he did as pure genius.

At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
many of his worshippers).

    Patrice.

------------------------------

From: dennis summers <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:18:39 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Great or not so great

>On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Jeff Spirer wrote:

>> This gets into the concept that context is important to understanding art, a
>> concept that I believe originated with the intellectual elite-ization of
>> art.  In fact, art that is "great" transcends all reference points, all
>> context, all social boundaries, and that is its greatness.  It brings people
>> together regardless of where they started and where they end up.

>I sort of agree with Jeff here, but I thought I'd say a word or two in
>defense of those darned intellectual elitists.  Art can be understood in
>many different ways.  One way you might want to understand a piece of art
>is in terms of its context (or one of its contexts: personal,
>art-historical, social, whatever).  In that case, obviously context is
>useful.  But there are plenty of other ways to understand art that
>don't require any knowledge of context.  Art critics often like to talk
>about context, I'd guess, because it's much easier to say something
>about that than to really get inside the work.  One of the things
>distinctive about great (I won't put it in quotes) art is that the process
>of understanding it just goes on forever.  It's bigger than anything we
>can say about it, and so we can talk about it forever, or just sit there
>and bask in its power.

>End of defense. 8^)

>Chris Hamilton
>[e-mail]


As an artist and I suppose a darned intellectual elitist, I could not
disagree more. I doubt I can change anyone's mind here, so I'll keep my
remarks short. It would be hard to take any course or read any book on
anthropology, and not come away with the conclusion that one's understanding
of art is controlled by one's culture, and will vary only insofar as true
cross-cultural study will allow.
        In fact I remember a prof telling us a beautiful story-myth from
some native american or eskimo group, and discussing how westerners
interpreted the meaning of the story, which sure made sense to all of us.
When she went on to explain how the members of this group think, view the
world and socialize -in short how they contextualize their environment- it
was clear that the significance of the story was vastly different than we
had thought. In fact, this goes to an old colonialist attitude that we can
understand and appreciate (or not, as the case may be) the cultural products
of others.
         It's interesting to note how little of what we consider to be the
"art" of other cultures is actually viewed as such by the members of those
cultures. "Art" tends not to even exist in many other cultures, simply the
by-products of a religious life. So the fact that you Jeff may find some
african music to be beautiful, is just a gloss on your own appreciation of
sound. I would seriously doubt that if you ever discussed the content with
the actual members of the people who create that sound, that there would be
much correlation.
        Furthermore, to say " In fact, art that is "great" transcends all
reference points, all
context, all social boundaries, and that is its greatness.  It brings people
together regardless of where they started and where they end up." in my
opinion is to vastly simplify human life. While it is true that as human
beings we do share in some universal experiences. But consider for a moment
how much art is considered great today, that wasn't considered great even a
few decades ago, because for example it was created by women. Is it the art
that changed or our context for appreciating it? And to say that art brings
people together seems naive in the context of the cultural wars currently be
waged in this country. Are the photos of Robert Mapplethorpe great art. I
believe it is. Is it going to bring me together with Jesse Helms? I doubt it.

yours in Zornocity, --ds
***Quantum Dance Works***
****http://ic.net/~denniss****


------------------------------

From: [e-mail] (Joshua N Schuster)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 20:51:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> I think that what annoys Zorn more than anything else are Cage fans who
> used to gobble everything from him as from divine origin.
>
> For him, Cage is a great composer and thinker, but that does not mean that
> you have to take everything he did as pure genius.
>
> At least, Cage had a strong sense of humour (the same cannot be said of
> many of his worshippers).
>

If we are thinking of the same interview, I also recall something Zorn
said which is very provocative.  Zorn says something like he doesn't buy
the notion that one can just flip coins for twenty years and make
interesting music (a cop-out he implies).  Instead, Zorn says, he considers
the factor of decision making to be a primary element is own compositions.
Which is why I think just focusing on fragmentations and collage
formalistically is a mistake.  I've heard people say, for example, that
"Forbidden Fruit" is so radical because it jumps all over the place, as
if the wild movement is all--but what about the title, the cartoons, the
voice, the folk bits, the speeds of fits and starts, etc.  Instead,
the process of selecting what music goes where is very thoughtful, especially
versus Cage's mysticism of negating the composer by invoking trascendental
anarchic operations.

I don't much like that PMC article by McNeilly for the reasons Herb Levy
suggests and also for the simply poor attention McNeilly gives to the
actual music (of both Cage and Zorn).

- -js

------------------------------

From: Toshi Makihara <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 20:53:45 +0900
Subject: PhiBa-improv: Philadelphia/Baltimore Improv List

[ a n n o u n c e m e n t ]

 =====================================================
                    * PhiBa-improv *
 (Philadelphia-Baltimore Free Improvisation Mail-list)
 =====================================================

Thanks to Joe Germuska of Northwestern University, the
Philadelphia - Baltimore Improvised Music (PhiBa-improv)
Mailing List is now launched.

This list provides an online forum for discussing Free
Improvised Music and related subjects (such as New Jazz,
Experimental Music, Free Improvised Dance, etc.) in
Philadelphia and Baltimore. The list was created,
following the examples of Chicago and Boston Free
Improvisation Lists, in order to facilitate the Free
Improvised Music scene in Philadelphia and in Baltimore,
and to provide an open forum where various discussions,
concert reviews and announcements are exchanged. We also
hope this list to be informative and interesting to
out-of-town subscribers interested in Free Improvised
Music.

Presently two major concert series are produced in
Philadelphia. "Monday Night Performance (MNP)," a
biweekly concert series at Highwire Gallery in Olde
City, and a series produced at A-Space, an alternative
coffee house in friendly West Philadelphia. In
Baltimore, a regular concert series is produced at RED
ROOM (located at Normals Books and Records near Johns
Hopkins University) by John Berndt and his associates.
We hope this list to facilitate these concert series,
and vise versa.

 To subscribe to PhiBa-improv, send an email to

    [e-mail]

 with a message body of

    subscribe phiba-improv

or alternatively with a web browser (Netscape,
MS-Explorer), go to PhiBa-improv subscription page:

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e.html

 The basic information regarding PhiBa Information page
is available at

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If you have any questions, please address to

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Thank you for your support, and we are looking forward
to your participation.

 * Toshi Makihara
 * List Manager : PhiBa-Improv
 * [e-mail]



------------------------------

From: "Geert.Buelens" <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:34:34 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Coleman/Radical Jewish Culture

Anthony Coleman 'lectured' about Rad Jewish Culture, yesterday in Leuven
(belgium), and afterwards Claudia Heuermann's movie about the Lower
Eastside-scene 'Sabbath in Paradise' opened there. If some of you would
be interested ...

geert

------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:39:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

>
> I think that what annoys Zorn more than anything else are Cage fans who
> used to gobble everything from him as from divine origin.

While I'm not one of those Cage fans, couldn't the same charge be levelled
at many of us Zorn fans?

Indeed, having listened to a couple of hours of Cage interviews in the
last yearm I can confirm the man's sense of humour.  He was deep and often
prophetic, but always undercut by a playfullness and a sense of
self-deprecation.  His essays and mesostics don't really betray that as
well, but I think that flavor is in those texts too.

Bob


------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 07:51:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Great or not so great

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, dennis summers wrote:

>          It's interesting to note how little of what we consider to be the
> "art" of other cultures is actually viewed as such by the members of those
> cultures. "Art" tends not to even exist in many other cultures, simply the
> by-products of a religious life.

I think this is a fascinating point.  In some ways the aspect of religious
expression within some cultures view maps out on some of the things WE
look for in musical experience, and especially in performance.  We want
devoted performers who push boundaries and take their expressions to
heights of personal expereince, while pushing our subjective reception as
well.  We want performers who appear to be hooked into something outside
of the normal experience of "mundane" music.  We want performers with a
vision.

Then you analyze our behavior (audience) from the same place...and the
parallels get even more interesting...

I'll leave the cultural context issue, since I entered this list with a
firefight about "artist's intention" that I barely survived....

Bob


------------------------------

From: Toshi Makihara <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 10:37:15 +0900
Subject: "New Music Philadelphia / Baltimore"

"New Music Philadelphia / Baltimore" page at

 http://www.voicenet.com/~tosmos/nm_phiba.htm

contains a comprehensive list of upcoming concerts in
Philadelphia, Baltimore and the surrounding regions. It
is basically following the example of Seth Tisue's
"New music live (Chicago)" page.

The list is regularly updated and distributed weekly via
PhiBa-improv (Philadelphia/Baltimore Free Improv List).
For more information on PhiBa-improv please check
http://wnur.nwu.edu/lists/phiba-improv/

Thank you.

 T o s h i   D.   M a k i h a r a   percussionist
  [e-mail]
   http://www.voicenet.com/~tosmos
    http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/tosmos

------------------------------

From: Bob Boster <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:08:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Zorn book blurb

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Joshua N Schuster wrote:

> If we are thinking of the same interview, I also recall something Zorn
> said which is very provocative.  Zorn says something like he doesn't buy
> the notion that one can just flip coins for twenty years and make
> interesting music (a cop-out he implies).  Instead, Zorn says, he considers
> the factor of decision making to be a primary element is own compositions.
> Which is why I think just focusing on fragmentations and collage
> formalistically is a mistake.  I've heard people say, for example, that
> "Forbidden Fruit" is so radical because it jumps all over the place, as
> if the wild movement is all--but what about the title, the cartoons, the
> voice, the folk bits, the speeds of fits and starts, etc.  Instead,
> the process of selecting what music goes where is very thoughtful, especially
> versus Cage's mysticism of negating the composer by invoking trascendental
> anarchic operations.

I think it's a big mistake to assume that the use of chance operations in
Cage's compositional process is the same thing as him "not" composing, or
just "flipping coins for 20 years."  First, the content of the material
selected by the chance operations was "composed" by Cage as it was set
into the grid of potential material.  Second, he assembled the material
back onto the page as it was selected - placement and linkage can only be
sequenced by chance, placement is beyond the ability of the system he
composed with.  Third, and most importantly, choosing to compose with
chance operations IS a compositional choice.  The extent to which this
choice leaves out some aspects of traditional issues of construction is
debatable, but the fact that it is a choice, at least as much as the
decision in a Zorn piece to use game rules to compose with, can't really
be debated.

Cage's implications about removing the composer from the process has been
oversimplified by generations of music students and thinkers and I'm
surprised to hear the Zorn fell (even if briefly) into that trap.  When he
goes on about try to remove something from the process, it is not the
composer in total, but the emotional state and "ego" of the composer.
There is a big difference.  The tracings of these ideas in his thinking
from various sources (including Zen) are too extensive to get into here.
Allowing the role of the composer's "mind" to shift into a place where the
compositions "mind" can have a life of its own is much of the point....

I don't read Cage's comments as mysticism.

Bob


------------------------------

From: "R. Lynn Rardin" <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 11:56:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Intergalactic Maiden Ballet (was: a new release)

>has anyone heard of a cd by Zorn called "Intergalactic Maiden Ballet/Squar"?
>an internet store called cd banzaii is selling it?  is it a new release,
>a bootleg, or what?

It's a legit release on the Enja-associated Tiptoe label, but it's not a
Zorn-led date.  In other words, Zorn is a guest of 4 of the 8 tracks.  It
was recorded in 1989 and released in 1990, so it's not a new release.

For full details, check out Patrice's Zorn discgraphy at:

http://www.acns.nwu.edu:80/WNUR/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html

- -Lynn ([e-mail])

------------------------------

From: Larry Solomon <[e-mail]>
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 13:27:04 -0700
Subject: Zorn and Cage and back to Zorn

Bob Boster wrote:
>I think it's a big mistake to assume that the use of chance operations in
>Cage's compositional process is the same thing as him "not" composing, or
>just "flipping coins for 20 years."

I agree with Bob. I'm not sure where Zorn got the 20 year figure, but
the number should be more like 40 years, since Cage began using chance
for complete compositions in 1952. Cage also denied that "God wrote his
music, and not him", when someone so accused him. He said it was silly
that anyone should think that he (Cage) didn't write his own music.
Zorn's statements about Cage seem naive and polemical to me.

Concerning Zorn's music, Joshua Schuster wrote:
>Instead, Zorn says, he considers
>the factor of decision making to be a primary element is own compositions.
>Which is why I think just focusing on fragmentations and collage
>formalistically is a mistake.

What could be more collage-like than Zorn's music? There is a high
degree of fragmentation and juxtaposition of styles and ideas. Whereas,
many of Cage's chance pieces are not collages: e.g., his many works for
piano, Mesostics, Freeman Etudes, Thoreau pieces, etc.

An aspect of Zorn's approach that interests me, and which relates to
Cage, is the degree to which Zorn's music is his own creation, and how
much is attributable to the performers. And where, exactly, does the
work reside? I am not questioning Zorn's authorship here, but I am
fascinated by the question of the identity and autonomy of his work. For
example, if we had several different performances of, let's say
"Archery", by completely different performing groups, could we still
identify the work as the same piece and as being by Zorn? If so, what
are the identifiers?
- --

Best!

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Larry Solomon
The Center for the Arts            http://www.AzStarNet.com/~solo
Tucson, AZ
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

------------------------------

End of zorn-list Digest V2 #61
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