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From: Zorn List Digest
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 2:28 PM
To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #169
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, November 19 1997 Volume 02 : Number 169
In this issue:
-
Re: yada yada yada : 5 points
Masada question
Re:Milo Fine/Fred Frith (was Borbetomagus ...)
Re: yada yada yada : 5 points
Re: Nyman and Bryars
Pigpen
Re: Frank Lowe
Re: "Don't ever piss of a pacifist"
Re: Nyman and Bryars
Re: yada yada yada : 5 points
Re: Angel Song
Re: Masada question
Re: Angel Song
Re: "Don't ever piss of a pacifist"
yada yada yada : 5 points
Gnu High
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:01:12 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: yada yada yada : 5 points
On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:05:45 -0500 Bob Kowalski wrote:
>
> 5. I've been on a treasure hunt for Michael Nyman recordings lately and
> also just recently purchased the new Gavin Bryars "Man in a Room,
> Gambling." Mentioning Zorn ...et al on the Nyman listserv gets minimal
> reaction (sorry- couldn't help that one.) How do all ya Zorn-o-philes like
> Nyman, Bryars and such? Just curious.
^^^^^
I love his second record (s/t MICHAEL NYMAN on Piano Records, 1982), THE KISS
and the soundtrack of THE DRAUGHTSMAN CONTRACT. But I have lost patience since
(which means for the past 13 years!). His recent stuff seems to me to be the same
rehash of a couple of tricks (could we call them ideas?) he found out in the
early '80s. I do not have the impression that he has been able to come up with
anything original for a long time. Would not mind hearing somebody disagreeing...
I feel the same about Glass, but at least Glass got original for more than a
couple years...
Don't know Bryars enough to say anything. I loved his Obscure records from the
'70s. Not moved to much by his recent stuff, but I have not seriously paid
attention to it.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:14:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Jeff Gretz <KGGF@grove.iup.edu>
Subject: Masada question
My question:
Are the masada discs going to be re-released on Tzadik? Has any mention been
made of EVER doing this in the future. Also, what about Grand Guignol, Radio,
Heretic, and Absinthe? i don't know if there is info anywhere that lays out
the actual game plan for the label in terms of what's going to be issued. It
seems that zorn is trying to put all of his stuff out on that one label. I
heard the painkiller stuff is eventually going to be put out too. but what
about this Earache two-fer disc? does that put the kabosh on it? Please someone
help!
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:14:16 -0600
From: jihad7@juno.com (Nathan M Earixson)
Subject: Re:Milo Fine/Fred Frith (was Borbetomagus ...)
On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:48:56 -0800 "Patrice L. Roussel"
<proussel@ichips.intel.com> writes:
>
>On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:19:53 -0800 Dave Trenkel wrote:
>>
>> At 9:47 AM 11/19/97, Nathan M Earixson wrote:
>> >On Wed, 19 Nov 1997 05:31:09 -0500 pm.carey@utoronto.ca (Patrick
>Carey)
>> >writes:
>. I guess he
>reminds me (to some extent) of some of the Henry Cow albums I've heard.
>>
>> Given what Fine, as a record reviewer for Cadence, has had to say
>about
>> Frith over the years (very negative, and not particualarly
>pleasant), I'm
>> sure he'd REALLY appreciate that comparison. :-)
>>>
>>>Yes, that comments also surprised me :-).
>>>
Well, I would say that I have had a fairly limited experience with "free"
music, compared to alot of the people on this list. Also, Henry Cow
wasn't really "Fred Frith's band". I would have to say that I'm not
comaring Milo Fine to Fred Frith. I am comparing the Milo Fine Free
Jazz ensemble albums I have heard to the Some of the Henry Cow pieces I
have heard. A problem with this is that I can't even remember what
albums the Henry Cow pieces I am thinking of would be on, so I can't go
back and validate my statements to myself without listening to a lot of
Henry Cow that I'd rather leave alone. (not a huge Henry Cow fan)
.I had heard that Milo Fine was a very cranky type who was dissatisfied
with musicians that weren't him, in general, and what I;m hearing here
seems to confirm that.
Concerning the Naked CityThread, where Someone made a statement about
Fred Frith Playing bass; In my opinion, Fred Frith's Bass playing
epitomizes the 'too slick' argument about Naked City. He's obviously
very technically proficient, but something seems missing, compared to how
he plays guitar. I also found this true on the
French/Frith/Kaiser/Thompson album, where he was the bass Player. What
gives? Why would you recruit Fred Frith to play Bass? Does he
volunteer? I can think of plenty of Bass Players I would have rather
heard in either of these groups. Am I just talking out my ass here?
I
>For me, Milo looks like somebody who discovered free improv a long
>time ago and
>did not realize that the clock has turned... Very often he is judging
>records from a free improv point of view, as if records were only made
>to fulfill this aesthetic. It is kind of funny... like reading about
>an
>economist who keeps on looking at the world with Marx's CAPITAL as
>unique
>reference :-).
>
>I like also the way he feels to have to look savant to sell his point.
>I
>would like sometimes to tell him: "Hey Milo, this is not a free improv
>record, pass it to somebody else."
>
> Patrice.
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:58:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Shepherd <rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu>
Subject: Re: yada yada yada : 5 points
On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Bob Kowalski wrote:
> 3. Recently picked up the new Joey Baron CD ("Back Home" I think?)
Well, how is it? I'm really curious and unable to find a copy as of yet.
- Mike
"It's only romantic 'cause it never works."
- Harriet the Spy
*********************************
Mike Shepherd
rein0065@frank.mtsu.edu
Middle Tennessee State University
(615) 898-3652
*********************************
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:31:14 -0500
From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Nyman and Bryars
>>>>> "Bob" == Bob Kowalski <BKowalski@genetics.com> writes:
Bob> I've
Bob> been on a treasure hunt for Michael Nyman recordings lately
Bob> and also just recently purchased the new Gavin Bryars "Man in
Bob> a Room, Gambling." Mentioning Zorn ...et al on the Nyman
Bob> listserv gets minimal reaction (sorry- couldn't help that
Bob> one.) How do all ya Zorn-o-philes like Nyman, Bryars and
Bob> such?
One side of Nyman's release on Obscure has a piece for piano that had
chords with long decay times. In my salad days with mix tapes
(working strictly with home audio equipment), I'd remove the attack
from these chords and have long segments with just the decay, which
made for a nice effect. I remember the piece overall being quiet and
dreamy, maybe like Morton Feldman.
I later bought a CD of his which the Wire had on their best of the
year list. It had four pieces including one with a counter-tenor and
one for some number greater than zero of harpsichords. I hated it,
every piece, and still do, and as a result will probably never buy
another Nyman disk and will also regard the Wire's best-of-the-year
list with more suspicion.
Bryars is entirely different. I love the CD release of Jesus Blood (a
tape loop of a tramp singing a hymn with various instrumental backup,
and Tom Waits joining the tramp at the end), and am also quite fond of
Sinking of the Titanic (ambient orchestral -- no other way to describe
it). I recently got his cello concerto (Farewell to Philosophy), but
don't know it well enough to comment.
I would be interested in your comments on Man in a Room.
- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions do not reflect on management
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:22:23 UT
From: peter_risser@cinfin.com
Subject: Pigpen
>*** - DAYLIGHT: Pigpen
>
> 1/ Daylight (Horvitz)
> 2/ V As In Victim (Horvitz)
> 3/ Oh Blue Angels, You Are But A God To Me (Horvitz)
> 4/ Don't Explode On Me (Horvitz)
> 5/ Trouble (Horvitz)
> 6/ Arrive (Krauss)
> 7/ Mr. Rogers (Horvitz)
> 8/ Tap (Horvitz)
> 9/ Mel (Chalenor)
> 10/ Duet (Horvitz)
> 11/ The Gift (Horvitz)
> 12/ Trio (Horvitz)
>
> Produced by Wayne Horvitz
Isn't Mel on the Zony Mash CD?
How do these guys compare with Zony Mash?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:56:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <bburton@CapAccess.org>
Subject: Re: Frank Lowe
On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Jason Tors wrote:
> Speaking of monster Sax players, Frank Lowe was a pioneer in tweeking the
> emotional voice of the sax. I recently picked up his album from the 70's
> called The Flam. I find it to be a hefty brain jiggle.
> What do others think of this player?
> Any other suggestions for great Frank Lowe albums?
to me "the flam" is the epitome of gutbucket free tenor saxophone. that
record is sooo good!
a couple years ago thurston moore put out a frank lowe / phillip wilson
one-sided e.p. called "out of nowhere" on the forced exposure label.
the playing is heavily influenced by lester young, but unfortunately i
think it's out of print. aside from "the flam", it's my favorite, so if
you ever see it used definitely pick it up!
b
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:51:08 -1000
From: Dan Kuehn <smokey@maui.net>
Subject: Re: "Don't ever piss of a pacifist"
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
References: <E0xYGCe-0006K9-00@mail.xmission.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
But was the quote supposed to be
"Don't ever piss off a pacifist"
or
"Don't ever piss on a pacifist"
- --
Dan Kuehn
resident manager
Kailua Maui Gardens
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:03:53
From: Jesse Simon <umsimo10@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Nyman and Bryars
> I've
> been on a treasure hunt for Michael Nyman recordings lately
> and also just recently purchased the new Gavin Bryars "Man in
> a Room, Gambling." Mentioning Zorn ...et al on the Nyman
> listserv gets minimal reaction (sorry- couldn't help that
> one.) How do all ya Zorn-o-philes like Nyman, Bryars and
> such?
I haven't heard too much by Michael Nyman although the stuff I have heard
(at new music festivals and such) have done absolutely nothing for me.
Bryars, on the other hand is one of my favorite composers, although I can't
for the life of me figure out how he got to be as recognized as he is. I
guess it was the "Jesus Blood" recording. The stuff that Bryars did for ECM
(especially After the Requiem with Bill Frisell) is pretty incredible and a
recent album of pieces for string quartet is also very good. His earlier
albums are reasonably difficult to find, but well worth it.
I am going to buy "Man in a Room, Gambling" no matter what, but i'd still
be interested in hearing about it.
cheers,
jesse
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:12:26 -0500
From: "Chris Barrett" <cbarrett@neaq.org>
Subject: Re: yada yada yada : 5 points
>On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Bob Kowalski wrote:
>
>> 3. Recently picked up the new Joey Baron CD ("Back Home" I think?)
>
>Well, how is it? I'm really curious and unable to find a copy as of yet.
> - Mike
While it's pretty straightforward, sorta blues/slight funk based, it's an
amazing example (I think it is anyway) of less is more. Both Joey and Bill
play very in, but it is still definitely them. I've always thought that
Bill's playing has so much more dynamic and texture than most electric jazz
players, and that is in full display here. Joey's slow groove on "Little
Boy" is just amazing.
- -Chris
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:48:16 -0700
From: dtapia@unoco.edu (Douglas Tapia)
Subject: Re: Angel Song
>Anyone have this CD? I just got it today and I've got to say it's really
>brilliant. Four excellent jazz musicians (Kenny Wheeler, Lee Konitz, Dave
>Holland and Bill Frisell) playing some of the most expressive music I've
>heard in a while. If anyone's got any opinions, I'd like to hear them.
> Julian
>
Yea, awesome record. I got this the day it came out. (Love Kenny, got
almost everything he's ever put out) I was fully prepared for it not to
live up to my expectations. It seems that often, when I get a disk with
such a stellar lineup, I expect too much, but I must say _Angel Song_ blew
me away.
Who knew that Lee Konitz could play so well in such an ethreal context?
Kenny does some of the best playing and writing I've heard since _Flutter
By, Butterfly_ (on Soul Note) and _Music for Large and Small Ensemble_ (on
ECM). It is as if every note he plays is carefuly contemplated, hand
crafted, and delivered to the listener, yet Kenny never looses the ability
to suprise, delight, and play with an amazing sense of spontinaity and
energy.
It's obvious that words fail me whenever I try to talk about music on the
level of Kenny's.
Holland is flawless, providing only what is musically relevant, and nothing
more. Remindes me a bit of his plaing on _Conference of the Birds_, though
I'm not sure what aspect. (Perhaps all aspects: the over-arching
brilliance of his conceptial approach to the bass is staggering)
As for Bill. Where to start. . . Bill sounds, on this record, as close to
Bill live as is probably possible. Having seen Frisell quite a few times
in close, intimate settings, (as well as some larger settings) I must say
that when I listen to this disk, I can picture his facial expressions, his
movements, the whole nine yards. It remindes me that, as good as Frisell
has always been, he is still getting better!
I caught his quartet about a month or so ago, and having been witness to
his first ever gig with Ron Miles (3 years ago), I was blown away by how
much growth Bill and the group have undergone. It was simply telepathic,
and that's the essence of what was captured on _Angel Song_, IMHO.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:25:03 -0500
From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree)
Subject: Re: Masada question
>>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Gretz <KGGF@grove.iup.edu> writes:
Jeff> My question: Are the masada discs going to be re-released on
Jeff> Tzadik? Has any mention been made of EVER doing this in the
Jeff> future. Also, what about Grand Guignol, Radio, Heretic, and
Jeff> Absinthe? i don't know if there is info anywhere that lays
Jeff> out the actual game plan for the label in terms of what's
Jeff> going to be issued. It seems that zorn is trying to put all
Jeff> of his stuff out on that one label. I heard the painkiller
Jeff> stuff is eventually going to be put out too. but what about
Jeff> this Earache two-fer disc? does that put the kabosh on it?
Jeff> Please someone help!
Not speaking for anyone at Tzadik, but usually for albums to be
re-released, they need to go out of print first. All of the Naked
City albums you mention are still in print on Avant, and given the new
distribution deal that Avant has with Koch, they should be relatively
available. Leng T'che and Torture Garden have been re-released
because they were on smaller labels (Leng T'che) or vinyl (TG).
All of the Masada albums are still available on DIW as well.
- ---
Caleb T. Deupree
;; Opinions do not reflect on management
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
(Pablo Picasso)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:57:04 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@smtc.net>
Subject: Re: Angel Song
Douglas Tapia wrote:
>
> Kenny does some of the best playing and writing I've heard since _Flutter
> By, Butterfly_ (on Soul Note) and _Music for Large and Small Ensemble_ (on
> ECM). It is as if every note he plays is carefuly contemplated, hand
> crafted, and delivered to the listener, yet Kenny never looses the ability
> to suprise, delight, and play with an amazing sense of spontinaity and
> energy.
>
> It's obvious that words fail me whenever I try to talk about music on the
> level of Kenny's.
I have only one Kenny Wheeler LP which I got at a record show for $2.
It's 'Gnu High' on ECM with Kieth Jarrett, Dave Holland and Jack
DeJohnette. There are only two or three tunes. it's pretty good but
didn't blow me away. I was just wondering how 'Gnu High' compared to his
other albums.
-Tom Pratt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:27:39 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: "Don't ever piss of a pacifist"
>But was the quote supposed to be
>
>"Don't ever piss off a pacifist"
>
>or
>
>"Don't ever piss on a pacifist"
"Don't ever piss, pacifist."
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:05:45 -0500
From: Bob Kowalski <BKowalski@genetics.com>
Subject: yada yada yada : 5 points
I think I need a digest version for all of the zorn listserv messages in
digest format I am getting lately. So much music. So much to say :
1. Next Zorn collaboration will be with Wynton (improvised covers of WC
Handy) .. if only - then this discussion thread could go on...and on...
2. The "Angel Song" cd is wonderful and also seems to be part of a new
ECM series with discreet / moody coverwork.
3. Recently picked up a reissued Jim Hall disc and the new Joey Baron
CD ("Back Home" I think?) and who but Ron Carter, bassist extrodinaire,
should appear on both discs (recorded over 20 years apart!)
4. Anyone recommend some Elesyia(n?) Fields CDs? New Yorker
magazine calls them "erotic jazz" (I know, huh???) - they open up the
Serge Gainesborough compilation and have a great sound!
5. I've been on a treasure hunt for Michael Nyman recordings lately and
also just recently purchased the new Gavin Bryars "Man in a Room,
Gambling." Mentioning Zorn ...et al on the Nyman listserv gets minimal
reaction (sorry- couldn't help that one.) How do all ya Zorn-o-philes like
Nyman, Bryars and such? Just curious.
6. Phew !!! Tis all for now ;* )
Bob
Somerville, MA
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:24:23 -0700
From: dtapia@unoco.edu (Douglas Tapia)
Subject: Gnu High
>I have only one Kenny Wheeler LP which I got at a record show for $2.
>It's 'Gnu High' on ECM with Kieth Jarrett, Dave Holland and Jack
>DeJohnette. There are only two or three tunes. it's pretty good but
>didn't blow me away. I was just wondering how 'Gnu High' compared to his
>other albums.
Tom,
_Gnu High_, is, IMhO a very good album, but I do admit that it isn't as
stellar as it might be cosidering the rhythm section, it just never quite
gets going.
Perhaps more telling of Kenny's abilities is _Double Double You_ (on ECM)
which features Michael Brecker on tenor, Jack DeJohnette on drums, Dave
Holland on bass, and John Taylor on piano. Be warned, it sounds a bit like
_Gnu High_, but overall, the writing is a little more inspired, as is the
playing.
The attraction to Kenny for me is the fact that you can see the
improvisation process unfold in front of you: Wheeler takes some time to
get going, but if you stay with him (I mean really focused) he will take
you to some very high places, and then gently set you back down on earth.
This usually translates into no fewer than 15 or 20 choruses on some very
long forms with a couple of warm up/warm down choruses at the begining and
end, not easy listening, but very fasinating.
Bracker hits like a steamroller and is a nice foil to Wheeler's approach.
Jack provides lots of energy, Dave a rock solid foundation, and John Taylor
can always find some new, facinating melody in the changes that mortals
like ourselves would have never found on our own, yet once he plays a
melody, it seems so obvious.
Am I an ECM freak. Yea, I guess I am. . .
Doug Tapia
General Manager, MTP
UNC Music Tech Press
University of Northern Colorado
Fraiser 108
Greeley, CO 80639
Voice: 970-351-2614
Fax: 970-351-1923
Email: mtp@unoco.edu
http://arts.univnorthco.edu/mtp
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #169
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