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From:     Zorn List Digest
Sent:     Monday, November 17, 1997 10:45 PM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     Zorn List Digest V2 #165


Zorn List Digest       Monday, November 17 1997       Volume 02 : Number 165



In this issue:
-
       Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton style without content)
       RE: The Big Deal With Naked City
       Re: Stalker (was: lustmord)
       Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)
       Re: Buckethead question...
       Re: some crazy-arse Jewish violin music...
       Last word on pain...
       Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #164
       RE: The big deal with _Naked City_
       Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
       RE: Wynton/Blues
       Re: Ascension or Descension?
       RE: Japan Overseas
       RE: Japan Overseas (no music content)
       Re: Stalker (was: lustmord)
       RE: Bring Me The Head Of John Zorn! (just kidding)
       Re: Ascension or Descension?
       Re: Ascension or Descension?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:40:49 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton style without content)

>>I think the only place Wynton is likely to lead anyone is to Brooks
Brothers or Armani.

This is patently false. Every time I hear Wynton, I go running back to Zorn.

s)Z




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:52:13 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: RE: The Big Deal With Naked City

>I think Naked City (considering all their CD's) is Zorn's best work so far.
>I read somewhere that, with Naked City, he set out to cover as much musical
>ground as possible, using a basic rock-n-roll quintet lineup.  And what a
>"basic" lineup it was, with 5 of the most superbly talented and creative
>musicians anywhere.  Think about it, a band where the awesome technique of
>Fred Frith, is just devoted to bass...
>
Y'know, some of us bass players may take offence to that statement..."just
devoted to bass"???

But seriously, Frith became one of my all-time favorite bassists with that
record.


________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:52:04 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Stalker (was: lustmord)

>On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jesse Simon wrote:
>
>> >> I've only heard one of his works, a collaboration with Robert Rich called
>> >> "Stalker", which is an amazing disc of glacially slow moving ambient
>> >> electronic drones, inspired by the even more amazing Tarkovsky film of the
>>
>> I've never heard the album, but highly recommend the film. It is a very
>> slow and very profound cinematic experience.
>
>I 2nd those sentiments - its a great film (Tarkovsky's "Solaris"
>likewise). Excellent sound design, also. I've got a feeling the
>soundtrack was released on EVA in Japan.
>
"Solaris" has one of the most effective and haunting soundtracks of any
film, and it sounds like a great deal of it is classic analog tape musique
concrete. Do you have any details on where one could actually get this?

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:58:34 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn's influences (Wynton content)

Many people were waiting for his first release, though I was too young to
care.  Marsalis had been playing with the Jazz Messengers and was creating
quite a stir, similar to the one Roy Hargrove was making a few years ago.
Only 19 when he got the Blakey gig, his 'voice' was already apparent, and
despite its references to the past, most folks were glad to hear it.  I
don't think he started getting in trouble with certain crowds until he
opened his mouth, so to speak, years later.  But this phenomenon is not
unique to Wynton Marsalis.  =20

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, [UNKNOWN] =F4=F4 wrote:

> JRZ wrote:
> > To tell the truth I agreed with Wynton in the 80's. All of the modern j=
azz
> > I was being exposed to was fusak crap. I didn't really care for his stu=
ff
> > but at least it was listenable.
> >=20
> > Most of the interesting Jazz made today is just not accesible to the
> > average music fan. People aren't going to make the jump from "No Doubt"=
 to
> > today's avant garde improv type music. They need to jump back a few dec=
ades
> > and work their way forward, if Wynton points them back to the old guard
> > greats then his existence is justified in full. It's not like you can c=
atch
> > the Miles Davis Quintet at the Vanguard.
>=20
>  Wynton's poularity is more a reflection of record company politics than
> anything else. Wynton was more or less anointed by CBS. Had anyone ever
> even heard of him before his first major label release? CBS put huge
> amounts of money into recording and promoting him,  Did they do this
> because people were clamoring for Wynton Marsalis's music? Or was it
> that   they saw the potential income from a well dressed, erudite,
> non-threatening black man playing conservative music in a conservative
> era. Yes, he is a decent trumpet player, but in comparison to Don
> Cherry, Mongezi Feza, or even newcomers like Dave Douglas, I just dont
> think he deserves the accolades that have been handed to him.
> =09There is an old story about how, after recording Skies Of America,
> Ornette went to the record company, with the expectation that they would
> finance a tour, with an orchestra, and he was practically laughed out of
> the room. Yet a minor talent like Marsalis, is given a curators chair at
> Lincoln Center.....Go figure.
> =09 With his dismissive attitude toward anything that doesn't meet his
> definition of Jazz, I think the only place Wynton is likely to lead
> anyone is to Brooks Brothers or Armani. In fact I would venture to say
> that a JZ or a Tim Berne, despite their obscurity, are more likely to
> lead potential listeners to the good stuff.
>=20
> End of Rant.
>=20
>=20
> -
>=20
>=20


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:52:10 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Dave Trenkel)
Subject: Re: Buckethead question...

>I came across a Buckethead double CD entitled _Bucketheadland_ on Avant for a
>really cheap price- $10.  Your thumbs up/down please.
>
>=dgasque=

If it was more than $10, I'd say pass on it, but for that, I dunno, maybe.
I paid something like $39 for it and HATED it. To me it just sounds like
4-track noodling, albeit much faster than usual. But I sild it to a
guitarist friend who found some stuff he liked.

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : [e-mail]  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:40:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some crazy-arse Jewish violin music...

I haven't seen him mentioned here, but for some amazing on-the-edge
violin playing, check out anything by Malcom Goldstein. He focuses, to a
great extent, on sounds that people are taught not to make on the violin,
but may greatly appeal to people here. See the Deepl Listening catalog at
http://www.deeplistening.org/dlc/28golds.html for some of his work.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:55:39 -0600
From: Evan Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Last word on pain...

Hello,

I sent an e-mail to earache about PK and this is the answer I received....

++++++++++
Ev,

On January 27, 1998, we will be re-issuing "Buried Secrets" & "Guts of a
Virgin" on one disc.

If you like to order it or have any other questions please send them to the
Earache Mail Order dept. [e-mail]

Thanks,

Pete
++++++++++

Now, to wait 'till January really isn't that bad considering you'd
otherwise have to pay a shitload to get them... but it's yer life.

Evan


        ------------------------
"Ya know, I've watched a lot of horror flicks in my day, and all I have to
say is DON'T MESS AROUND WITH BOOKS IN LATIN WITH PENTAGRAMS ON THEM!!!" -
Ev.
    http://www.flash.net/~baka/home.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:11:25 -0500 (EST)
From: William Johnston <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #164

Please let me know how I can go about getting off of this thing.  Thank you.
Bill Johnston


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:01:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: The big deal with _Naked City_

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, James Douglas Knox wrote:

> But I think its maybe its a bit reductive to dismiss this disc just as an
> elaborate nonsequitur; I dearly love the film themes gathered on this disc
> - for me, very moving and sensitive interpretations of some great tunes.

Yeah.  I stand by the general thrust of my criticism, but I've been
convinced over the last couple of days that I ignored too many healthy
trees while trying to get the forest condemned.  Er, so to speak.

Chris Hamilton


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:18:06 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:49:16 -0500 (EST)  Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > Slick? Do you mean that the music is rehearsed by skilled musicians
> > before being delivered? That the recording is of good quality? That there
> > are thoughts first, then music after (instead of the inverse)? What's
> > wrong with that? Doesn't it apply to most of Zorn's production? Zorn is a
> > perfectionist (even on his first records you could detect that nothing was
> > left at random). Are you accusing him of a lack of sloppiness :-).
>
> I'm not entirely sure what makes it come off slick to me.  It might be the
> production (too much compression in the mix?), but I don't generally
> have a problem with Zorn's production style.  It might also be the fact
> that the music is more thoroughly composed than is typical for the genres
> being referenced.  Whichever, it sounds less spontaneous and energetic
> than the source material.
>
>      It occurs to me as I'm typing this that, if the latter suggestion is
> right, that's kinda interesting in itself, and I'll try listening to these
> records with that in mind next time I put them on.
>
> > I am not too crazy either of the s/t NAKED CITY (and RADIO), but for
> > different reasons.
>
> I'd be curious to know your reasons, if you'd like to share them.

I doubt that I have any serious reasons. I consider it almost perfect under
any angle I choose to look at it, but it leaves me almost cold. I have the
same attitude with Masada (technically perfect, but does not move me at all).

Maybe because it is so good and I find that suspicious :-).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:01:39 EST
From: [e-mail] (James T Graves)
Subject: RE: Wynton/Blues

>.he even played a silly pseudo-free jazz trumpet riff in his (seemingly
malicious)
>attempt to ridicle the tradition of players who don't "swing" or
incorporate the
>"blues". the interviewer neglected to ask him to define those terms.

Well that's interesting. I remember reading an interview with Keith
Jarrett in the New York Times Magazine where Keith challenged Wynton to a
blues battle, claiming that "Wynton can't play the blues."

Jamie

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:30:44 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension?

Ascenion, as mentioned by Patrick,
is a free/improv duo. to my ears,
their work is along the lines
of Borbetomagus or Blowhole.
the only caveat i can give is that
while their brilliant moments
shine, their less than stellar
moments are equally as conspicuous.

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Patrick Carey wrote:

> released several 7"s (all o/p), a couple LPs (on Dirter

the "Live/Dead" LP on Dirter
is worth examining. is this
still in print?

> and Fusetron - should still be around), and 2 CDs (a
> single & a double), both on Shock, both still available.

the double CD titled "Broadcast"
is not to be passed up. this
is a recording from a live
broadcast event done by
KFJC 89.7 FM ("somewhere in
California") two years ago
via ISDN from England. i finally
managed to track a copy down--i
understand it's a limited
pressing of 500 copies--and
relived the entire experience
over and over again. this is the
most focused performance i've
heard yet. i am particularly
struck by the way the pair
clearly have a strong rapor
while playing. i can't
say enough good things about
this set.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:32:21 -0800 (PST)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Japan Overseas

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Patrick Carey wrote:

> Hmmm ... that's strange.  I've dealt with them numerous times, and I
> receive items faster than I do from most mail order outlets Stateside
> with no hassle.

i must concur.
my experience has been the same.
i'm continually amazed at how
fast stuff gets delivered all the
way from Japan.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:54:25 +0000
From: Dwight Haden <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Japan Overseas (no music content)

At 07:15 PM 11/17/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:33:30 -0500
>From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
>Subject: RE: Japan Overseas
>
>>Japan Overseas quoted me a price on a Painkiller disc, took my money,
>>then, after 6 weeks, told me it was unavailable.  I don't recommend
>>that you deal with them, at least for items not in their normal catalog.
>>They still have my money, BTW.
>
>Hmmm ... that's strange.  I've dealt with them numerous times...
>
>>I've done some web searching recently and have found the following
>>Painkiller discs listed at various European/USA mailorder services:
>
>And why are any of these mail order outlets better than JO?

I don't know that they are better, except in terms of price and access-
ability.  But I do know that:

a) I followed someone's advice and gave JO a try when looking for hard-
   to-find Zorn discs.
b) I got screwed.

Just passing this info along.  Glad you had better luck with them.

  Dwight Haden === [e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:53:17 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stalker (was: lustmord)

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Dave Trenkel wrote:
(snip)
> >
> "Solaris" has one of the most effective and haunting soundtracks of any
> film, and it sounds like a great deal of it is classic analog tape musique
> concrete. Do you have any details on where one could actually get this?
>
I'm sure the EVA label in Japan released both the soundtracks for Solaris
and Stalker, on separate discs in Japan. Once upon a time you could get
them thru Japan O/S, but now...I'm not too sure.

Cheers,

Jim


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:01:31 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Bring Me The Head Of John Zorn! (just kidding)

I've lost the posting, but an age back - with discussion tending towards
what might be Zorn's legacy, and who might be his peers in some kinda
musical pantheon - Zorn's name found itself in all kinda company; Zappa,
and later, Bach, Beethoven, and similarly esteemed others.

And someone (Chris, I'm sure it was you?) postulated - in jest - a day
when a bust of Zorn's head might sit on every household piano...

So; over the weekend, I'm thinking; and suddenly I gets the image of what
these busts might look like. (Yeah, you already know what I'm thinking)
Zorn's head, Grand-Guignol cover-graphic style - vacant eyed, jaw ajar,
cranium cut-aways to reveal pieces of exposed brain. Sitting in a dinner
plate. Hell; I'd buy one!

Err; I dunno. It seemed funny at the time...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:45:37 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension?

>>Descension consists of Ascension plus Simon Fell on double
>>bass and Charles Wharf on alto & soprano sax & bass clarinet,
>>and if you can't stand Ascension alone, I wouldn't recommend
>>Descension ... ;-)  They have one album, a lengthy disc on
>>Shock from 1995.

>If you love Ascension alone, this is ESSENTIAL.

So true.  I was simply emphasizing the fact that the Descension
album is 10 times the lovely racket of anything Ascension has done.
That's what the ;-) was for.


- -Patrick



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:45:50 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: Re: Ascension or Descension?

SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Ascenion, as mentioned by Patrick,
>is a free/improv duo. to my ears,
>their work is along the lines
>of Borbetomagus or Blowhole.

I would agree, although w/o the reeds of course.
Arguably, there's still a 'jazzy' sort of aesthetic
going on though ...

>the only caveat i can give is that
>while their brilliant moments
>shine, their less than stellar
>moments are equally as conspicuous.

I suppose that is true.  It is quite obvious when
things aren't quite all there between the two men.

>the "Live/Dead" LP on Dirter
>is worth examining. is this
>still in print?

I want to say it is, but I'm not sure.  Upon looking
in the latest RRR catalog I have I see that Ron no
longer has it listed.  Forced Exposure may still have
some though (?)

>the double CD titled "Broadcast"
>is not to be passed up. this
>is a recording from a live
>broadcast event done by
>KFJC 89.7 FM ("somewhere in
>California") two years ago
>via ISDN from England. i finally
>managed to track a copy down--i
>understand it's a limited
>pressing of 500 copies--and
>relived the entire experience
>over and over again. this is the
>most focused performance i've
>heard yet. i am particularly
>struck by the way the pair
>clearly have a strong rapor
>while playing. i can't
>say enough good things about
>this set.

Yes, it is limited to 500, something I should have
mentioned.  I managed to track this down soon after
it came out and I'm glad, since it seems to have
become hard to come by.  I know Jimmy at FE told me
that Stefan (for whatever reason) never sent him any
of these, but they do have the first Ascension disc,
the Descension CD, and the Fusetron LP.  Best bet
might actually be to contact Shock (Stefan) directly
and hope for a response (fax: [phone]).

I wholeheartedly agree regarding how 'focused' this
performance seems.  Great stuff!!


- -Patrick






- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #165
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