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From:     Zorn List Digest
Sent:     Monday, November 17, 1997 12:11 AM
To:     [e-mail]
Subject:     Zorn List Digest V2 #163


Zorn List Digest       Monday, November 17 1997       Volume 02 : Number 163



In this issue:
-
       RE: The Big Deal With Naked City
       Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
       Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
       Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
       Re: Marc Ribot
       Re: Wynton/Blues
       Re: Duras:Duchamp
       Re: Stalker (was: lustmord)
       Buckethead question...
       Re: Buckethead question...
       RE: The Big Deal With Naked City
       RE: Japan Overseas
       RE: The big deal with _Naked City_
       Re: lustmord (no music content)
       Re: some crazy-arse Jewish violin music...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:25:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: The Big Deal With Naked City

>
>For me, the fun of Naked City is trying to figure out how Zorn described
>the feel of each piece to the rest of the band.
>

It's funny you say that, I had a chance to drill Bill Frisell with some
questions at a totally unpublicized Q&A the afternoon of a gig he played
here at the University a couple months ago.  We got talking about Naked
City, and he had a lot of wierd things to say about the charts:

1) Zorn would apparently always fit everything on one page, so some of the
tunes were really really tiny.
2) The standard notation was interspersed with text and random
pictures, indicating things like "loud" or "high", as well as with strange
code words that Zorn would come up with himself (I think the noise bursts
came in here somewhere...).

But the main memory he seemed to have was illustrated best when he put his
head in his hands and started groaning "Mainly it was just loud...so so so
loud..."



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:31:14 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_

Boy oh boy. Can I just point out that your opinion is not fact. You quoted
"Lonely Woman" as a song that 'holds up' on the album, but that this track
doesn't use horizontal genre juxtaposition. This can be said for quite a
lot of the tracks - most of the covers ("The Sicilian Clan", "Contempt" and
"I Want To Live" come readily to mind) plus others such as "Inside
Straight". I think these work well because of the great playing of the
musicians. For example "Sunset Surfer" from "Radio" is a great tune mainly
because of Zorn's/Frisell's playing of the melodies, and there's no mad
genre-hopping exercises there either. Then there's that bunch of tracks on
the album (the names escape me) that just grind for 10-20 seconds. This
only leaves about a third of the album attempting to do this "horizontal
genre juxtaposition" that you claim Zorn was aiming for. I think he aimed
for (and got) a reasonably balanced mix of straight film music, straight
jazz/blues, metal and last but not least genre-hopping, probably tipping
his hat to Carl Stalling and others you mentioned mind you. And another
thing, just because you think there may be more point to "Torture Garden"
that doesn't necessarily mean there is. It's up to the individual listener.
I personally think that the genre-hopping tracks on "Naked City" are
supposed to be like soundtracks to movies or whatever, like Stalling's
music obviously was. For example "Saigon Pickup" sounds like some sort of
computer game soundtrack (the guitar bit sounds quite a lot like Mario, but
don't quote me on that). Hmm, I've really written too much here, but it
seems it's necessary, this topic was getting out of hand as it was...
actually this will probably make it worse. Oh well, see you at the
flaming...

> Ah, but then they're not unrelated, right?  I don't have a problem with
> juxtaposing different genres.  That's been done very effectively by many
> musicians from W.C. Handy to Carl Stalling to Charles Mingus to
> Grandmaster Flash (just to name a few personal favorites).  But in all of
> those cases the juxtaposition has a point outside itself.  On _Naked
> City_, I don't see that point.  It's got a certain conceptual interest,
> but not that much since, as the list above demonstrates, it's not all
that
> novel.
>      Of course, it may be that the record does have an internal logic
that
> I'm just missing.  If so, I'd be pleased as punch to have someone explain
> it to me.  And (I should probably have noted) some of the individual
> tracks do hold up.  "Lonely Woman" continues to work because the bassline
> makes a point about how close to great pop Coleman's composition really
> is.  (But note that this track doesn't use horizontal genre
> juxtaposition.)  The short bursts work very well in another context
> (_Torture Garden_), which gives them a point.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:49:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Slick? Do you mean that the music is rehearsed by skilled musicians
> before being delivered? That the recording is of good quality? That there
> are thoughts first, then music after (instead of the inverse)? What's
> wrong with that? Doesn't it apply to most of Zorn's production? Zorn is a
> perfectionist (even on his first records you could detect that nothing was
> left at random). Are you accusing him of a lack of sloppiness :-).

I'm not entirely sure what makes it come off slick to me.  It might be the
production (too much compression in the mix?), but I don't generally
have a problem with Zorn's production style.  It might also be the fact
that the music is more thoroughly composed than is typical for the genres
being referenced.  Whichever, it sounds less spontaneous and energetic
than the source material.

     It occurs to me as I'm typing this that, if the latter suggestion is
right, that's kinda interesting in itself, and I'll try listening to these
records with that in mind next time I put them on.

> I am not too crazy either of the s/t NAKED CITY (and RADIO), but for
> different reasons.

I'd be curious to know your reasons, if you'd like to share them.

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:04:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Christopher Hamilton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_

On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Julian wrote:

> Can I just point out that your opinion is not fact.

Of course not.  It's my opinion _about_ the facts, but I may well be
wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time.  I only brought it up because I'd
like to be shown the error of my ways if this is the case.

> You quoted
> "Lonely Woman" as a song that 'holds up' on the album, but that this track
> doesn't use horizontal genre juxtaposition. This can be said for quite a
> lot of the tracks - most of the covers ("The Sicilian Clan", "Contempt" and
> "I Want To Live" come readily to mind) plus others such as "Inside
> Straight".

Good point.  I do thing the covers hold up pretty well all around.  It
helps that film music is generally slick, unlike rockabilly, metal, etc.
My main complaint has to do with the album as a whole, not so much the
individual pieces.  (It does apply to the more measured jumpcut pieces.)

> just because you think there may be more point to "Torture Garden"
> that doesn't necessarily mean there is. It's up to the individual listener.

If I believed that, I wouldn't bother discussing music with people at all.
I'm here because I think other people have something to teach me.

> I personally think that the genre-hopping tracks on "Naked City" are
> supposed to be like soundtracks to movies or whatever, like Stalling's
> music obviously was. For example "Saigon Pickup" sounds like some sort of
> computer game soundtrack (the guitar bit sounds quite a lot like Mario, but
> don't quote me on that).

Perhaps this is what I'm missing.  I'll try listening to them this way
next time I put the record on.  Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Chris Hamilton



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:38:31 -0700
From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Marc Ribot

>
> I would greatly appreciate it if anyone who knows could tell me what
> guitar equipment Marc Ribot is currently using.  Thanks.

I believe that he uses a variety of guitars & amps, but 2 weeks ago when I
played with him he used a Fender Telecaster, and a little (3 watt?) Vox
amp. He had a Cry Baby, a distortion pedal, and some other pedal that had
been "renamed" with a felt marker or something. His basic sound comes
from the Tele + little tube amp combination.
- --



[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:21:25 -0700
From: john shiurba <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Wynton/Blues

slusser:
> >What does Marsalis teach regarding the place of the music discussed on this
> >list?
>
> He has not spoken disrespectfully of the avant-garde; he just places it in the
> European 20th century classical tradition.

i don't know... i heard him on NPR waxing pretty disrespectfully about the avant garde.
he even played a silly pseudo-free jazz trumpet riff in his (seemingly malicious)
attempt to ridicle the tradition of players who don't "swing" or incorporate the
"blues". the interviewer neglected to ask him to define those terms.

[e-mail]

http://www.sfo.com/~shiurba

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:23:41
From: Jesse Simon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Duras:Duchamp

At 01:29 PM 11/16/97 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>Am I the only one to think that the "Deuxieme Livre" is very close to
>"Louange a l'immortalite de Jesus", from "Quatuor for the End of Time"
>by Messiaen?

Boy does it ever! In a good way though. (although i think it's the
troisieme livre)

The whole connection between Messiaen and Zorn is a fascinating one, I
find. Almost everything that Messiaen wrote in his lifetime was devoted to
the glory of god and the sometimes terrifying beauty of "god's world". Many
of his pieces for solo-organ come with a title and a reference to a bible
passage. Although Messiaen's music has never made me want to take up
christianity, listening to his compositions is probably the closest thing I
will ever come to experiencing the passion that is said to be associated
with absolute faith.

Zorn has made reference to Messiaen a number of times in the past five
years or so. There was Naked City's very respectful cover of the
aforementioned "Louange" as well as certain subtle hommages in some of the
longer compositions.

Messiaen's music has probably transcended the boundaries of religion and
has moved into the realm of purely spiritual. By that I mean it is music
that will move people regardless of personal beliefs. I sense something
very similar going on the more "jewish" of Zorn's compositions, especially
those on Bar Kokhba. There is a definite universality present.

Jesse


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:59:08 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Stalker (was: lustmord)

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Jesse Simon wrote:

> >> I've only heard one of his works, a collaboration with Robert Rich called
> >> "Stalker", which is an amazing disc of glacially slow moving ambient
> >> electronic drones, inspired by the even more amazing Tarkovsky film of the
>
> I've never heard the album, but highly recommend the film. It is a very
> slow and very profound cinematic experience.

I 2nd those sentiments - its a great film (Tarkovsky's "Solaris"
likewise). Excellent sound design, also. I've got a feeling the
soundtrack was released on EVA in Japan.

Cheers,

Jim


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:08:04 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Buckethead question...

I came across a Buckethead double CD entitled _Bucketheadland_ on Avant for a
really cheap price- $10.  Your thumbs up/down please.

=dgasque=

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:17:58 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Buckethead question...

> I came across a Buckethead double CD entitled _Bucketheadland_ on Avant
for a
> really cheap price- $10.  Your thumbs up/down please.

It's not like the greatest cd you'll ever find but for 10 bucks!! I got
mine the other day from CDnow, cost me over 20. Whether you want it or not
depends on what you're into. If you've heard any Praxis and like it then go
ahead. If you haven't ever come into contact with Buckethead or Praxis
before, then imagine someone trying to make a mockery out of the
Satriani/Vai scene, and then make your decision. By the way the second disc
is remixes of stuff off the first.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:29:26 +0000
From: Dwight Haden <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: The Big Deal With Naked City

I think Naked City (considering all their CD's) is Zorn's best work so far.
I read somewhere that, with Naked City, he set out to cover as much musical
ground as possible, using a basic rock-n-roll quintet lineup.  And what a
"basic" lineup it was, with 5 of the most superbly talented and creative
musicians anywhere.  Think about it, a band where the awesome technique of
Fred Frith, is just devoted to bass...

Noir jazz, classical, hardcore, avant garde, ambient, cartoon, and metal
with snippets of pop, reggae, and rap - all mixed, matched, blended, and
executed
with precision and reckless abandon.  I'm still amazed, and I'm certainly not
bored with it.







  Dwight Haden === [e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 07:29:23 +0000
From: Dwight Haden <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Japan Overseas

>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:04:47 -0500
>From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
>Subject: Re: Painkiller?
>
><[e-mail]> wrote, regarding all of this PK hubbub ...
>
>>I'd be willing to pay a fortune from "one of those mail order places that
>>specializes in CDs from Japan."  How about a name of one that has Rituals:
>>>Live in Japan or Guts of a Virgin?  I finally found Burried secrets at a
>>
>Your best bet for copies of any of the Toy's Factory Painkiller
>CDs would be Japan Overseas, although I'm almost positive that
>"Guts ..." is o/p, and that both "Buried Secrets" & Rituals: ..."
>will soon be, if not already.  You can probably still get the
>3CD version of "Execution Ground" though ...  Check with Shoei
>to see what she can still get ...

Japan Overseas quoted me a price on a Painkiller disc, took my money,
then, after 6 weeks, told me it was unavailable.  I don't recommend
that you deal with them, at least for items not in their normal catalog.
They still have my money, BTW.

I've done some web searching recently and have found the following
Painkiller discs listed at various European/USA mailorder services:

Guts of a Virgin - Earache or Toys Factory (Diff. covers)
Buried Secrets - Earache or Toys Factory (Diff. color covers)
Rituals - Toys Factory
Execution Ground 2CD - Subharmonic
Execution Ground 2CD - Limited Ed. Metal Box
Execution Ground 3CD - Toys Factory (Diff. cover, extra CD)

Actually, I think that's everything, isn't it?  Email me offlist if you
want the contacts for specific items...

Then again, a friend of mine was able to find Guts, BS, and Rituals "used"
in a Chapel Hill record store this year.  Go figure.





  Dwight Haden === [e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 18:47:09 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: The big deal with _Naked City_

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
> On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, JRZ wrote:
>
> > I am, however, still trying figure out what the big deal is with "Naked City".
>
As with most of his other works, I think Zorn telegraphed his intentions
fairly clearly. The title and the Weegee foto, the music itself - if I had
to reduce it to a single meaning, how about something like *unitary
urbanism*.

> Well, I take it that most of the interest of the record comes from the
> startling juxtapositions of genres.  The tracks work like nonsequiturs,
> which I usually find funny (hence "joke").  But on _Naked City_, there's
> not much substance left once I get past the shock of the juxtaposition.
> The individual segments sound like the product of overly slick session
> musicians in comparison to good generic rockabilly, metal, lounge
> music, etc. The juxtapositions themselves don't signify anything beyond
> shock value because they're deliberate nonsequiturs.
>
Err; yeah, I know what you mean (even if I don't neccessarily agree). The
technique of the individual players here is pretty astonishing; friends of
mine have declared that the technique sometimes overwhelms the music here
- - even going so far as to compare this disc to Zappa (!). And for this
reason, I wonder just how well its gonna hold-up, posterity wise. Its
maybe only a matter of time before someone takes these formal elements and
pushes them even further.

But I think its maybe its a bit reductive to dismiss this disc just as an
elaborate nonsequitur; I dearly love the film themes gathered on this disc
- - for me, very moving and sensitive interpretations of some great tunes.
And this disc is certainly a landmark in Zorn's career - insofar as it
represents some of Zorn's earliest, best-realised attempts at the actual
"notation" of song-form (leastways, outside of his film-scoring). And for
me, most of those tunes are pretty damn solid.

Cheers,

Jim

"the greatest enemy of creativity is good taste"
 - Pablo Picasso                          ^^^^^


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:01:12 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: lustmord (no music content)

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, David Slusser wrote:

> I recently ran across the word lustmord (German?) and wanted a clear definition
> for my own perverse purposes.  Then (funny how this works) I read about a
> band with the same name.  Anyone hear of them?
>
The artist Jenny Holzer has done a project of this same name, relating to
the atrocities committed during the civil war in Bosnia (specifically, the
rape and murder of civilian women). Its being shown down here next year,
but I think its a few years old - it shouldn't be so hard to find more
info, if you're so inclined.

> > Relevant quote:
> I believe there are two types of people in the world- those that divide people
> into groups and those that don't.
>
Nice *ironic* touch, that...

cheers,

Jim


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:10:25 +1100 (EST)
From: James Douglas Knox <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some crazy-arse Jewish violin music...

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Tom Pratt wrote:

> Anybody else have some solo violin recs for me (and everyone else)?

Dunno hardly anything about this stuff myself, but I heard something on
the radio recently by a guy called (hope i got this right) Erwin
Schulthoff. A german guy, he apparently hung with the Dadaists in Paris
(the only other composer I know to spend any substantial amount of time in
their company was Varese), was a communist, found his premature end in a
concentration camp. In short: he was *good people*

Anyways; the piece I heard - can't remember the title, sorry - was a v
great and frenzied peice for solo violin. I dunno - I guess Jon Rose might
know something about him. But: he seemed like he probably did some
interesting work in his short life-time.

Cheers,

Jim


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #163
*******************************


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