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1998-03-08
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From: Zorn List Digest
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 1997 2:27 PM
To: zorn-list-digest@xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #162
Zorn List Digest Sunday, November 16 1997 Volume 02 : Number 162
In this issue:
-
Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
Re: Duras:Duchamp
Re: Duras:Duchamp
RE: The Big Deal With Naked City
Re: lustmord
Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
Re: In Need of NEW music.
Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
Re: Cecil wannabe
Oversimplified Historical Flowchart Analysis (OHFA) - yet even simpler
Re: Otomo Yoshihide?
Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
Re: The Big Deal With Naked City
Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
painkiller live
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:12:52 -0600 (CST)
From: y9d62@TTACS.TTU.EDU
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
Zohar is moving? Sounds like a personal thing to me. :)
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, ia zha nah er vesen wrote:
>
> > The juxtapositions, instead of merely wearing out their shock value, make
> > a kind of sense of their own. I think there's more than just mere shock
> > value in placing unrelated genres side by side, but maybe that's only
> > because that's how i always used to make mixed tapes for my
> > friends...putting Count Basie, Ministry, Gregorian Chants and Villa Lobbos
> > one after the other struck me as a fine idea.
> <snip>
> > I'm not even sure if i can verbalize the criteria i was
> > using, but there was some kind of logic behind my apparantly random mixed
> > tapes...
>
> Ah, but then they're not unrelated, right? I don't have a problem with
> juxtaposing different genres. That's been done very effectively by many
> musicians from W.C. Handy to Carl Stalling to Charles Mingus to
> Grandmaster Flash (just to name a few personal favorites). But in all of
> those cases the juxtaposition has a point outside itself. On _Naked
> City_, I don't see that point. It's got a certain conceptual interest,
> but not that much since, as the list above demonstrates, it's not all that
> novel.
>
> Of course, it may be that the record does have an internal logic that
> I'm just missing. If so, I'd be pleased as punch to have someone explain
> it to me. And (I should probably have noted) some of the individual
> tracks do hold up. "Lonely Woman" continues to work because the bassline
> makes a point about how close to great pop Coleman's composition really
> is. (But note that this track doesn't use horizontal genre
> juxtaposition.) The short bursts work very well in another context
> (_Torture Garden_), which gives them a point.
>
> > I'd call 'Nani Nani' or 'Zohar' a joke;
>
> This is another topic, but I actually think _Zohar_ is quite moving. The
> submersion of the somber music under all that "surface noise" suggests a
> kind of melancholy yearning for the unattainable: Jewish traditions as
> they stood a century ago, the sound of old recordings as they were at the
> time, and maybe other things by extension (God, even?). Sure, it probably
> didn't take that long to come up with the music, but it's a simple,
> effective idea.
>
> Chris Hamilton
>
>
>
> -
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:29:37 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Duras:Duchamp
On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:14:34 -0500 Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> I've had this disc for a while and REALLY enjoy it. I was just wondering
> if anyone knows anything about the compositional process and what Zorn
> was trying to achieve with each piece. Are these simply "tributes" to
> Duras and Duchamp or was Zorn attempting to depict some of their art
> through music? Anybody have anything at all???
Am I the only one to think that the "Deuxieme Livre" is very close to
"Louange a l'immortalite de Jesus", from "Quatuor for the End of Time"
by Messiaen?
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:32:51 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Duras:Duchamp
On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:14:34 -0500 Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> I've had this disc for a while and REALLY enjoy it. I was just wondering
> if anyone knows anything about the compositional process and what Zorn
> was trying to achieve with each piece. Are these simply "tributes" to
> Duras and Duchamp or was Zorn attempting to depict some of their art
> through music? Anybody have anything at all???
As much as I think ELEGY is a superb parallel in music of what Genet did for
litterature (both in style and content), I am not sure that I get the
DURAS. I love the music but have failed to see any connection with the
famous writer. Because of the comparison with Messiaen, I would have
expected the piece to be called... Saint Therese d'Avilla (not really a
role model for Duras :-).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:36:19 EST
From: chasinthetrane@juno.com (James T Graves)
Subject: RE: The Big Deal With Naked City
For me, the fun of Naked City is trying to figure out how Zorn described
the feel of each piece to the rest of the band. For example, when they
play jazz, they play it like five guys who have never played anything but
jazz and are mired in the genre. Horvitz on Inside Straight sounds like
an out-of-touch jazz musician who absolutely lives by the rules of jazz
comping. You Will Be Shot and NY Flat Top Box are quirky little vignettes
of rubes in the city. The ability of Naked City to conjure up visual
images makes it just that much more interesting. I suppose the
quintessential example is James Bond Theme, with the bullets and cars
screeching around you. And its fun to hear five guys play as fast as they
can.
Jamie
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:47:15
From: Jesse Simon <umsimo10@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: lustmord
>> I've only heard one of his works, a collaboration with Robert Rich called
>> "Stalker", which is an amazing disc of glacially slow moving ambient
>> electronic drones, inspired by the even more amazing Tarkovsky film of the
I've never heard the album, but highly recommend the film. It is a very
slow and very profound cinematic experience.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:10:05
From: Jesse Simon <umsimo10@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
I can't remember exactly where I heard the term, but someone once described
the music of the Lounge Lizards as being "fake jazz". To me the first Naked
City album (and Radio to some extent) come out of this same tradition. I've
always thought that there was something worng with this term because the
Lounge Lizards and parts of Naked City represent one of my favorite kinds
of jazz, and the term kind of dismisses it as if it were a joke.
The first Naked City may well be taking a free and easy approach to musical
styling and cross-breeding but it is still a lot of fun to listen to. I
don't think that it was intended to be as serious as other projects, but
what's wrong with that. If they've created something which people can
listen to, enjoy and think about, then they have succeeded as musicians.
Also, it's hard to think of Naked City as being a single group with a
single artistic trajectory. They were a group which reveled in plurality
and it's inherent possibilities. I think that perhaps their greatest
strength as a band was that they brought an incredibly wide range of
musical styles out into the open and doing that defied easy categorization.
Many bands change musical directions, but few change as dramatically (and
as often) as Naked City managed to during their four or five years together.
etc.
Jesse
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:18:48
From: Jesse Simon <umsimo10@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: In Need of NEW music.
>>I was wondering if folks could suggest their
>>recent prize CD purchase.
DEREK BAILEY and KEIJI HAINO - Drawing close, attuning...
I finally found this album on a recent trip to the states and although it
was reasonably expensive I would have to say it's well worth it. I also
bought Fushitsusha's Purple Trap.
JOHN ZORN - Duras:Duchamp
Pretty lame prize purchase seeing that most of the rest of you have
probably owned this since august. But in Canada, new Zorn releases
sometimes don't make it here that quickly and when they do, they usually
don't spend too much time in the record store. I've been looking for this
disc for months so I was pretty happy to find it.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:43:35 -0800
From: "Schwitterz" <mcmullenm@vcss.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
On _Naked
>City_, I don't see that point. It's got a certain conceptual interest,
>but not that much since, as the list above demonstrates, it's not all that
>novel.
For me it works, because the sound of it all is beautiful.
sZ
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:56:23
From: Jesse Simon <umsimo10@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
At 03:36 PM 11/16/97 -0500, Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>This is another topic, but I actually think _Zohar_ is quite moving. The
>submersion of the somber music under all that "surface noise" suggests a
>kind of melancholy yearning for the unattainable: Jewish traditions as
>they stood a century ago, the sound of old recordings as they were at the
>time, and maybe other things by extension (God, even?). Sure, it probably
>didn't take that long to come up with the music, but it's a simple,
>effective idea.
I agree. I think _Zohar_ is incredibly beautiful. Bewildering at first, but
after the initial head scratching is over there is something incredibly sad
about it. It's as if time is corroding the music and in a few years the
harmonium and singing will be gone altogether, leaving only the static. It
is definitely NOT a joke.
Jesse
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:54:30 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:10:45 -0500 (EST) Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Julian wrote:
>
> > That is the idea, to hit hard, at least for a couple of listens. I don't
> > know quite what you mean by "joke".
>
> Well, I take it that most of the interest of the record comes from the
> startling juxtapositions of genres. The tracks work like nonsequiturs,
> which I usually find funny (hence "joke"). But on _Naked City_, there's
> not much substance left once I get past the shock of the juxtaposition.
> The individual segments sound like the product of overly slick session
> musicians in comparison to good generic rockabilly, metal, lounge
> music, etc. The juxtapositions themselves don't signify anything beyond
> shock value because they're deliberate nonsequiturs.
>
> The strategy works best on _Torture Garden_ because the
> juxtapositions are so compressed and performed so consistently at
> breakneck speed that they provide a sense of rhythm that's absent on the
> first record. Actually, I think _Torture Garden_'s pretty great, although
> I don't often want to hear it. _Radio_ tries to superimpose the genres
> rather than horizontally juxtaposing them, but still sounds a bit too
> slick to my ears. (My criticisms don't apply to the other Naked City
^^^^^
Slick? Do you mean that the music is rehearsed by skilled musicians
before being delivered? That the recording is of good quality? That there
are thoughts first, then music after (instead of the inverse)? What's
wrong with that? Doesn't it apply to most of Zorn's production? Zorn is a
perfectionist (even on his first records you could detect that nothing was
left at random). Are you accusing him of a lack of sloppiness :-).
I am not too crazy either of the s/t NAKED CITY (and RADIO), but for
different reasons.
> records since they don't use this approach at all.)
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:56:42 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:21:44 -0500 (EST) Christopher Hamilton wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Schwitterz wrote:
>
> > A few YEARS? Any joke which takes a few years to pall is a damn good joke.
>
> Sure. But a work of art which palls after a few years may not be so good.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And if Chris said so... :-).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:57:20 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Cecil wannabe
> Are there any free pianists out there you would NOT consider to be a
> Cecil wannabe? I ask this question inquisitively not accusingly because
> I've found the exact same thing (with Crispell in particular).
John Tilbury comes to mind, as do Georg Graewe and Fred van Hove. Keith
Tippett, too. Most Europeans have had an easier time avoiding Cecil's
direct influence, I guess, while the best North American free jazz pianists
of subsequent generations (Crispell, Shipp, Plimley) have had to deal with
his overwhelming influence and then get to something beyond it, which I do
think all of them manage to do. Crispell, for instance, embraced Joni
Mitchell and Alberto Ginastera at least as much as CT the last time I heard
her solo... a non-free jazz listening friend who'd come along to the show to
hear Byron's Bug Music Band opined that he heard a lot of Keith Emerson in
Crispell's playing, which almost made me laugh until I realized that he,
too, was hearing the Ginastera elements.
I also hear some refreshingly non-Cecil beholden playing in the work of
Denman Moroney and of Benoit Delbecq, the latter of whom I only just
discovered yesterday on a new Songlines disc with Francois Houle.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:30:40 -0800
From: Jason Edward Kocol <misterlazy@usa.net>
Subject: Oversimplified Historical Flowchart Analysis (OHFA) - yet even simpler
Maybe I was just lucky, or maybe somehow an easier route led it's
way to me, but I just went Mr. Bungle--->John Zorn. And no musical path
of any kind even led me to Mr. Bungle, save for being at an old friend's
house and he having it on at the time. I believe I had first heard Zorn
around the same time, yet then I didn't much care for him. That was
many years and many mistakes ago. Take care.
- -Jason
http://suburban3.home.ml.org
http://members.tripod.com/~misterlazy
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:03:53 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Otomo Yoshihide?
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:04:15 -0500 Patrick Carey wrote:
>
> "Jason J. Tar" <tarjason@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>
> >Was just recently introduced to Otomo Yoshihide's work (mainly his Ground
> >Zero recordings), and was wondering what other releases by him people may
> >suggest (as it seems as though he has many, many recordings available)?
>
Also a very good new domestic release:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
094 - SOUND FACTORY (1997): Otomo Yoshihide
1/ DD (Yoshihide) 20:02
2/ HK (Yoshihide) 20:22
Recorded at A 102 Studio, Tokyo in April 1997
Produced by Otomo Yoshihide
Otomo Yoshihide: turntables, mixer, harddisk recorder.
1997 - Gentle Giant Records (USA), GG021CD (CD)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I believe Patrice should have the link to an extensive discog. (?) ;-)
Check ou on the WNUR-FM JazzWeb:
http://www.nwu.edu/WNUR/jazz/artists/yoshihide.otomo/discog.html
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:05:46 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:58:23 -0600 "Petsitter" wrote:
>
>
>
> ----------
> > From: Julian <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
> > To: Zorn List <zorn-list@xmission.com>
> > Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
> > Date: Saturday, November 15, 1997 11:42 PM
> >
> > > > I am, however, still trying figure out what the big deal is with
> "Naked
> > City".
> > >
> > > Although _Naked City_ was the record through which I first got into
> Zorn,
> > > I found the joke really palled after a few years for me. I'm glad to
> > know
> > > someone else here doesn't like it much.
> >
> > That is the idea, to hit hard, at least for a couple of listens. I don't
> > know quite what you mean by "joke".
> >
> >
> How can you not like Naked City? these are just plain sick comments
The statement was about NAKED CITY, not Naked City. What is wrong about
disliking a record of somebody as productive as Zorn?
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:15:19 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: The Big Deal With Naked City
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:42:50 EST James T Graves wrote:
>
> I've got two things to say on his subject. First, I'm still in throes of
> laughter from the Naked City joke, but I've only been listening to Naked
> City for a few months. I guess I expected Naked City would eventually get
> old, the same way Zappa's cross genre parodies have started getting a
> little stale. Secondly, when I saw Zorn with Zony Mash at the Knitting
> Factory a few weeks ago, Horvitz introduced Party Girl as "one of the
> greatest compositions of the 20th Century." In addition, the band ended
You have to be aware of Wayne's deadpan humour. Everytime I have seen him
(with Pigpen or Zony Mash), he introduces songs written by Zorn with a
funny statement.
Which means that I am not too sure what to think about his statements made
during shows, but the simple fact that he always plays at least one song
by Zorn is where the point is.
Patrice.
> up doing three or four Naked City covers throughout the night. I think
> Horvitz is laughing with me as well; he seems to have found something
> incredibly resilient in Naked City. You'd think that one of the five guys
> who knew the Naked City material better than anyone would be sick of it
> by now, but Horvitz is still going strong.
> Jamie
>
> -
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:25:27 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: The big deal with _Naked City_
On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:10:05 Jesse Simon wrote:
>
> I can't remember exactly where I heard the term, but someone once described
> the music of the Lounge Lizards as being "fake jazz". To me the first Naked
That's a statement by John Lurie. I think to remember that Lurie was accused
of making bad jazz covers, and this statement became his way of saying: "we do
not make jazz, give us a break".
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:12:54 -0500
From: The Ludingtons <dludington@enter.net>
Subject: painkiller live
This is my first post to the list, so please be kind!
I found the Painkiller disc Rituals: Live in Japan at a local Best Buy =
of all places. It was about $20, which is fairly cheap considering it's =
rare status. They actually had quite a few rare Zorn & related discs at =
one time, but they have downsized their complete music section and =
completely done away with all Laswell & Hellborg items, and only carry a =
few Tzadik releases.
Anyhow, I am one of those previously described "metal head" kids that =
got into Zorn via Painkiller & Naked City, and missed these bands =
durring their touring years. Also I don't quite have the disposible =
income to buy the imported Painkiller discs (anxiously awaiting the =
Tzadik reissues!). I would love to trade tapes of the Rituals album for =
either Buried Secrets and Guts.... or the 3rd disc in the Execution =
Ground set since i only have the Subharmonic version and can't see =
spending another $15 (at least) to get a copy of the live disc. =20
Btw, Rituals is quite impressive, a nice blend between the heavier =
first albums(what i've heard of them) and the more loose peices on =
Execution Ground. Mick Harris' performance is simply mind blowing!
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #162
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