> On 24 Jan 2004 10:27:44 -0700 on another list Chris Bolton
> <cbolton@rmci.net> suggests:
>
> ... the Church could get sued by a CCW holder that is harmed on
> Church property, which harm would likely have been prevented if
> he were able to legally have his state licensed firearm with him.
> The Church prevented him from defending himself.
> ---
>
> -
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:24:17 GMT
From: Charles Hardy <utbagpiper@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Firearms Banned from LDS Church Buildings
Chad,
It was not read over the pulpit in our meetings. I did have occassion to visit with two members of our Stake Presidency and the President told his counselor he had the letter, but had not yet made copies for them. I'm wondering if the letter will be read or if it is intended as instruction for local leaders. A bit unusual to have it released to the media though.
Charles
==================
Charles Hardy
<utbagpiper@juno.com>
- -- Chad Leigh -- Pengar Enterprises Inc <chad@pengar.com> wrote:
For the LDS in the audience: Did anyone get this read over the pulpit
in their meetings today? I expected it, but nothing. I was late to
Priesthood meeting and missed the opening, but I asked my father who
said nothing had been announced there, and in Sacrament Meeting there
was nothing either...
Chad
On Jan 24, 2004, at 10:35 AM, Scott Bergeson wrote:
> On 23 Jan 2004 21:43:54 -0700 Chad Leigh -- Pengar Enterprises Inc
> wrote:
>
> ___Chad___
> After I read the actual text, I (as an LDS) plan on writing a
> friendly, factual, polite letter to the church office building
> telling them the logical fallacies in their arguments as well
> as pointing out the danger of such an action. I encourage all
> who are LDS to do so. Be polite, with some deference.
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:57:51 GMT
From: Charles Hardy <utbagpiper@juno.com>
Subject: DesNews article leaves out important info
There is an article in today's DesNews regarding yesterday's hearing on Sen. Julander's now perinial bill that mandates that guns be kept locked up seperate from the ammo which would also have to be kept locked up.
It is available at <http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,590039114,00.html>.
In in, the reporter reminds readers of the latest accidental death involving a gun, but fails to remind readers that in the case in question the gun HAD been secured in a lock box but the toddlers had been essentially unsupervised for several hours while their father was at work and their mother slept after returning home from working a graveyard shift.
(Another recent incident involved a couple of teenage boys who stole a weapon out of an automobile inside someone else's garage. Again, hardly a case of gun storage problem and far more a case of lack of safety training AND a lack of respect for others property. Had the kids stolen the car and then gotten killed in a car crash, they'd just be a couple of thieves. But let them steal a gun and then get hurt with it, and suddenly they are "victims" of a gun accident.)
Also, the reporter makes reference to the "powerful gun lobby." Of course, WE know that the "gun lobby" is really just a lot of ordinary folks, citizen activists and we are powerful only because of our numbers and grassroots involvement. We don't have Jazz tickets to hand out or (excepting for when the NRA donated to anti-gun Leavitt's campaign) make large campaign contributions. We don't have any rich sugar daddies funding our activities. The NRA has only 1 lobbyist assigned part time to Utah; he is also responsible for about 7 other western States. USSC has only the part-time, and probably donated time, of a single lobbyist.
GOUtah!, WAGC, UTGOA, USDIN, and other pro-gun groups don't even have that much. We are just regular folks who choose to be involved politically. We choose to vote; and we choose to make sure that our elected leaders know: 1-How we expect them to vote relative to our RKBA; and 2-That how they vote on RKBA WILL affect how we will vote at the next election.
Presumably, given their railings against gifts and in favor of limiting campaign contributions, this is exactly how the editorial board of the DesNews would like to see government function. Of course, they are none too happy with out continued success.
Below, is a copy of a letter I sent to the reporter who wrote today's story. I borrowed some items from a recent USSC alert to put into it. Perhaps it, and what I've said above, will generate some ideas for letters of your own--either to the editor as letters to the editor or to the reporter to encourage her to be more accurate in the future.
As always, be civil and proffessional in any communication. It is not wise to start a war of words with anyone who buys ink by the barrel. ;-)
<letters@desnews.com> for letters to the editor.
Charles
==================
Charles Hardy
<utbagpiper@juno.com>
- ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Dear Ms. Dobner,
I write in reference to your story in today's (Wednesday, Jan 28) Deseret News on Senator Julander's bill that would have required gun owners to lock up their firearms and ammunition.
I am deeply disapointed and concerned that in reminding readers about the most recent, and tragic event of a child being killed in a firearms related incident you failed to mention that in that case the weapon HAD been secured within a gun safe. Rather than being a poster child for a mandatory gun safe bill, the case in question is actually just the opposite as it shows that even locking a gun in a safe is no substitute for proper safety training, proper adult supervision of children, and general good parenting.
All the gun safes and trigger locks in the world will not protect toddlers who are left, essentially, unsupervised for four or more hours at a stretch. From what the news has reported, that entire situation was a tragidy waiting to happen. Had those children not found the keys to the gun safe, they almost certainly would have eventually found household chemicals, matches, kitchen knives, car keys, or run into the street in front of a speeding automobile. No wonder that in court the oath is to tell "the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth." By ommitting this one, very pertinent fact, you have left your readers with a VERY different impression of what happened to those two toddlers than is the reality. They were not victims of a gun accident. They were victims of parental neglect. Your readers deserve better.
Only one percent of childhood accidental deaths involve a firearm. And yet for five years Sen. Julander has wasted hours of her own time, the time of legislature, and of concerned citizens with her bill to impose more restrictions on law abiding gun owners, to increase the cost of gun ownership, and to further stigmatize guns. In those five years Sen. Julander has NOT introduced a single bill requiring that matches, household chemicals or even car keys be kept under lock and key. She has opposed efforts to make gun safety training available to school children on an equal basis with power line safety, lite rail safety, and other common sense safety training.
It is clear that Sen. Julander cares far more about demonizing guns, assling gun owners, and providing work to trial lawyers, than she does about the safety of children. Here are some of the problems with this bill:
** This bill attempts to legislate common sense but stupid or careless people will still endanger kids.
** This bill is not needed as people can be prosecuted under existing laws and the dealer notification part is essentially happening now.
** A "one size fits all" approach is inappropriate for many people.
** Equal justice will not follow equally reckless conduct- parents will not be prosecuted or sued, but their neighbors will be. Affirmative defenses make you prove your innocence, instead of the state proving your guilt.
** It is not a "child safety bill" but part of a scheme to demonize guns by singling them out for harsher treatment than other potentially hazardous items like knives, matches, motor vehicles, swimming pools or other items causing more accidental deaths than guns.
** Will this protect more kids or disarm potential victims of home invasions, burglaries, etc.? A 2001 study showed a significant increase in violent crime after passage of "safe storage" laws in 15 states. CDC has found no evidence that any gun control scheme actually works.
Please try to present a more balanced and full picture of this type of bill in the future.
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 18:34:20 GMT
From: Charles Hardy <utbagpiper@juno.com>
Subject: Fw: Minutes for Senate Judiciary, Law Enforcement, and Criminal Ju stice Committee 01/27
Below, are the minutes from the 1/27 Senate Judiciary Committee that heard the anti-gun, SB 36.
You'll note a few things.
1-Sen. President Mansell and Sen. Hillyard were both present to vote on SB 24 which deals with defining marriage. However, both were absent for the vote on SB 36. I'm told that Sen. Hillyard WAS present for some of the discussion on SB 36, but had to present a bill in another committee before the vote was taken.
However, Sen. President Mansell clearly left the room just as discussion on SB 36 was starting. He abandoned gun owners; he was unwilling to vote for us, but smart enough to not vote against us.
2-The president of the Utah PTA spoke in favor of this bill and thus, against your gun rights. What exactly does how a gun is stored in YOUR home have to do with the PTA's mission to work with parents and teachers to advance good education for children?
3-We see a doctor from Primary Children's Medical Center, Douglas Nelson, speaking against our gun rights.
4-The Catholic Diocese's Government Liason, Dee Rowland, spoke in favor of the bill. I'm told her comments indicated she did not even know what the bill was, other than an anti-gun bill, that she (or we presume her employer) supported on that basis alone. I'm told she said something to the effect of "My priest is tired of officiating at funerals of young people killed by guns."
5-Selanie Leavitt spoke on behalf of "Gun Wise," a group I've not heard of before, in favor of this bill and thus against your gun rights.
6-The other usual suspects including Billy/Barbara Nash and Marla Kennedy spoke in favor of this bill.
7-While Sen Buttars made a motion to kill this bill and thus took a stand solidy in defense of our rights--and even though the minutes do NOT show this--Sen. Bell, the chairman of the committee took the opportunity to ham it up for the cameras by giving "the gun lobby" a tongue lashing for being unreasonable and saying that this kind of a bill was needed and would pass eventually. Sen. Bell ultimately voted to hold the bill, but it is clear that he is NOT a strong defender of gun rights.
8-While we do not know Sen. Evans' motivation for moving to hold the bill rather than allowing a vote to happen on Arent's motiong to pass it out favorably and then moving to kill the bill, his motion had the effect of making it much easier for the gun grabbers to bring this bill back later in the session. Maybe he really thought this was the surest way to kill the bill. But from the comments made by committee members, it was clear to those in attendance that the bill was not going to get a favorable recommendation so it would seem to have been more prudent to allow a vote on Arent's motion at which time Buttars' motion to kill the bill would have been in order.
I'd say Sen. Buttars deserves your thanks on this one while Sen. Mansell needs to be reminded that friends don't desert each other. Sen. Evans need to hear that we don't want to play nicely with gun grabbers, we want to defeat them soundly enough that they quit wasting our time and attacking our rights with these kinds of bills.
Charles
==================
Charles Hardy
<utbagpiper@juno.com>
MINUTES OF THE
SENATE JUDICIARY, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE
STANDING COMMITTEE
Tuesday, January 27, 2004
Room 414, STATE CAPITOL BUILDING
Members Present: Sen. Gregory Bell, Chair
Sen. Patrice M. Arent
Sen. D. Chris Buttars
Sen. James M. Evans
Sen. David L. Gladwell
Sen. Lyle W. Hillyard
Sen. Mike Dmitrich
Sen. L. Alma Mansell
Members Excused: N/A
Staff Present: Jami Momberger, Policy Analyst
Katrina Yarrington, Committee Secretary
Public Speakers Present: Scott McCoy, Attorney, Equality Utah
Paul Boyden, Director, State Wide Association of Prosecutors
Michael Zimmerman, Attorney Roger Browne, citizen
Douglas Nelson, MD, Primary Children's Medical Center
Dee Rowland, Government Liaison, Catholic Diocese
Marla Kennedy, Executive Director, Gun Violence Prevention Center
John Spangler, Utah Shooting Sports Council
JoAnn Neilson, President, Utah PTA
Bill Clayton, Director of Community Action, GOUtah
Barbara Nash, Gun Violence Prevention Center
W. Clark Aposhian, Chairman, US-DIN
Janalee Tobias, President, Women Against Gun Control
Leonard Wojcik, USSC
Selanie Leavitt, Co-Founder, Gun Wise
A list of visitors and a copy of handouts are filed with the committee minutes.
Committee Chair Bell called the meeting to order at 8:05 a.m.
MOTION: Sen. Gladwell moved to approve the minutes of January 23, 2004.
The motion passed unanimously, with Sen. Evans, Sen. Dmitrich, and Sen. Mansell absent for the vote.
MOTION: Sen. Arent moved to pass S.B. 118, out with a favorable recommendation.
The motion passed unanimously, with Sen. Dmitrich, Sen. Evans and Sen. Mansell absent for the vote.
2. S.B. 24 MARRIAGE RECOGNITION POLICY (D.C. Buttars)
MOTION: Sen. Buttars moved to adopt 1st Substitute S.B. 24.
The motion passed, with Sen. Dmitrich, Sen. Evans and Sen. Mansell absent for the vote.
Sen. Buttars introduced the bill.
The following people spoke to the bill:
Michael Zimmerman, Attorney, former Utah State Supreme Court Justice
The following people spoke in support of the bill:
Roger Browne, citizen
The following people spoke in opposition of the bill:
Scott McCoy, Attorney, Equality Utah
MOTION: Sen. Hillyard moved to pass S.B. 24 out with a favorable recommendation.
SUBSTITUTE MOTION: Sen. Arent moved to hold S.B. 24 in committee.
The motion failed, with Sen. Bell, Sen. Buttars, Sen. Gladwell, Sen. Hillyard, and Sen. Mansell voting in opposition, and Sen. Evans absent for the vote.
The original motion passed, with Sen. Arent and Sen. Dmitrich voting in opposition, and Sen. Evans absent for the vote.
3. S.B. 36 PREVENTION OF CHILD ACCESS TO FIREARMS (P. Julander)
Sen. Julander introduced the bill.
The following people spoke in support of the bill:
Douglas Nelson, M.D., Primary Children's Medical Center, ER Doctor
RANCHO CORDOVA, Calif. (AP) ù A 53-year-old woman who fired nine shots with two handguns to ward off an intruder said she tried to avoid hitting her furniture.
"Priorities, right?" said Carolyn Lisle of Rancho Cordova. "It was one of those nights. I have a few holes in my glass out front."
The Sacramento County sheriff's department said William Kriske, a 47-year-old parolee, was treated for a gunshot wound to the arm, then jailed on suspicion of burglary and resisting arrest after he crashed through Lisle's sliding glass door Thursday evening.
Lisle's three guests fled the home, but she took action, opening fire with a .357 caliber revolver.
"He was like a mosquito hitting the window. Every time he turned around, poweee," she told the Sacramento Bee.
She emptied her first handgun as the intruder crashed through another window to escape, then retrieved a second revolver as he broke into her garage.
"I like to be prepared," she said.
She opened fire again as the intruder fled the garage and approached the house, wounding him.
Sacramento County Sheriff's Sgt. Lou Fatur said Lisle, a retired state worker who once worked as a correctional officer, won't be charged for defending herself with properly registered firearms.
The intruder tried to steal a motorcycle from a home across the street, but was chased off by neighbors who also had armed themselves to come to Lisle's aid.
As the burglar fled, one of the men yelled, "And that's just our womenfolk," Lisle said.
A California Highway Patrol officer stopped Kriske nearby, and he was arrested by sheriff's deputies.
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 03:38:35 GMT
From: Charles Hardy <utbagpiper@juno.com>
Subject: SB 48 second reading vote totals
Here is the vote on Waddoups' SB 48 that will, yet again, spell out that the UofU if part of Utah and must obey our gun laws. Note those who voted against your rights, or who failed to show up to vote at all.
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:15:47 GMT
From: Charles Hardy <utbagpiper@juno.com>
Subject: Senate committee votes to advance anti-gun SB 233
Yesterday, Monday the 16th, the Senate Transportation Committee voted 4-0, with 4 members absent, to advance SB 233, "Airport Security Amendments." This bill increases the panalty level for taking a weapon, including a firearm, beyond the metal detectors at the airport.
We certainly do not condone illegally taking a weapon into a secure area. And we encourage gun owners to be mindful and dilligent in keeping track of their weapons. However, we don't think it serves either security or justice to impose unduly harsh punishment over innocent or minor mistakes.
Increasing penalty levels by one degree as this bill does, so that the maximum penalty is a Class A, rather than a Class B misdemeanor, does NOTHING to deter real criminals or terrorists. It just continues the march down the path of demonizing anyone who may have a weapon--including folding utility knives, etc.
GOUTah! has contacted Sen. Evans and let him know we oppose this bill. USDIN and the NRA attempted to work with the sponsor, Sen. Evans, as well as the airport in an effort to resolve gun owner concerns. It seems that the Sen. and the airport were unwilling to budge an inch. We know Sen. Evans is in for a tough re-election in a traditionally Democratic district. It seems he may be playing election year politics at gun owners' expense.
Here is the vote report. Unfortunately, some claimed friends voted against us and some others who are generally pro-gun were absent. Please contact these committee members, as well as your own Senator, and ask them to oppose SB 233 on the floor.
Charles
Senate Transportation and Public Utilities and Technology Committee
Your lawmakers' town hall meeting information is listed below:
Congressman Chris Cannon
2/17/2004
7:00 PM
Kearns High School
5525 South Cougar Lane
Kearns, UT 84118
For tips on how to maximize your participation at a town hall meeting,
go tohttp://www.nraila.org/ActionCenter/GrassRootsActivism.aspx?ID=10.
National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action
- --- End forwarded message ---
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:51:24 GMT
From: Charles Hardy <utbagpiper@juno.com>
Subject: Latest KSL drivel against guns--OR calling all "fanatics"
This is from the KSL web site and was probably read on-air on the 12th of this month. KSL needs to hear from those who understand why disarming law abiding citizens on openly accessable, government property like the UofU campus is not a good idea. As always, please be civil in all communications as the media love nothing better than to have someone write a letter that actually confirms their bigoted views of us as "fanatics."
It looks like rebuttals can be sent to <duane.cardall@ksl.com>.
Charles
<http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=70&sid=74808>
Speaking Plainly About Guns
Feb. 12, 2004
Senate Majority Leader Michael Waddoups recently used what he described as ôplain languageö to explain his latest impudent effort to amend UtahÆs liberal gun law.
As far as the conservative senator from Taylorsville is concerned, only the state legislature can set policy regarding guns on public property, including UtahÆs colleges and universities.
May we use equally plain language to express KSLÆs view . . . and what repeated public opinion polls suggest is the long-held majority view in this state: Senator Waddoups and his concealed carry cronies could use a good dose of common sense.
Guns, concealed or otherwise, donÆt belong on college campuses!
The people charged with running UtahÆs schools know what works and what is best for their institutions. The University of Utah, for example, has a 30-year-old gun policy that has helped maintain a safe haven for learning. Would forcing a policy change to allow concealed weapons, in reality, do anything to make the campus safer?
LetÆs continue to speak plainly.
KSL is not against the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Guns have a place in American life. In recent years, though, the gun debate in Utah has gotten way out of whack. In plain language, it is time to do whatÆs best for all Utahns, not merely what will satisfy the narrow-mindedness of a few concealed carry fanatics.
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:39:54 GMT
From: Charles Hardy <utbagpiper@juno.com>
Subject: Roll call vote on SB 48
All,
SB 48 is Sen. Waddoups' latest attempt to make the UofU obey Utah's gun laws (as well as overturning a really bad court decision that said they didn't have to). It passed out of committee but only after Sen. Bell amendmended the bill. This amendment has some troubling ramifications. This amendment will, for the first time in our statutes, give clear and explicit authority to ALL private property owners, including owners of so-called "places of public accomodation", to discriminate against those who legally possess self-defense weapons.
This is an area that has never been clarified in State law and so both sides--gun owners and anti-gun (or just liability nervous) businesses have taken low-key approaches. The AOL case wherein three employees were fired for having legal weapons in their cars in the parking lot was the most visible face off yet. The Delta Center's banning of legal CCW is another ongoing case.
Yesterday, Sen. Waddoups offered an amendment that would have made clear that places of business, open to the public cannot discriminate based on your ability to defend yourself while continuing to strictly limit the authority of government agents/entities to restrict your CCW. That amendment failed on a 13-13 vote with several members absent.
Those Senators who were absent often claim to support RKBA. Had one or more of them been present to vote--and voted to support your RKBA--this amendment would have passed and SB 48 would have once again been a solidly pro-gun bill.
Please note that claimed "pro-gun" Senator Evans has, once again, voted against RKBA. This in addition to running an anti-gun bill this year and previously voting to undermine our efforts to kill a very bad mandatory "lock up your gun" bill. Of course, it was claimed "pro-gun" senator Bell who offered the bad amendment in the first place.
Please note that Senators Mansell, Bramble, and Valentine apparantly do not care enough about RKBA to be present to vote to support it.
A yes vote is good. A no vote or being absent is bad.
Voting in the affirmative (to adopt Waddoups GOOD amendment) were: Senators
Bell Buttars Dmitrich Eastman J. Evans Hellewell Hillyard Jenkins Knudson Mayne Stephenson Waddoups Walker
Voting in the negative (AGAINST RKBA) were: Senators
Allen Arent Blackham Davis B. Evans Gladwell Hale Hatch Hickman Julander Killpack Thomas Wright
Absent or not voting were: Senators
Bramble Valentine Mansell
Here is a story from today's SLTrib. Note that while Senator Walker voted in favor of the Amendment (a good vote), according to this story, she spoke against it and RKBA. She may have voted the right way only after seeing that her vote wouldn't matter.
Ideally, the entire language dealing with private property will be removed in the House. This would be done by striking all of paragraph 7. That way, this bill would not deal at all with private property and would return to being just about whether local government entities, including universities, can infringe your RKBA. The debate over private property generally open to the public is best left for another day, IMO.
The Utah Senate sent the House a gun bill Tuesday that would clarify for the first time in state law that stores, other businesses and private schools have the right to ban guns, including legally concealed weapons.
Senate Bill 48 is an attempt to overturn the University of Utah's decades-old prohibition of students, faculty and staff bringing firearms onto campus. But a floor amendment approved Monday closes a big loophole in state gun policy -- spelling out that private property rights trump gun rights.
Sponsoring Sen. Mike Waddoups, R-Taylorsville, tried but failed Tuesday to water down the amendment. "This goes back to the way it was, which in my mind was silent on the issue" of whether businesses and private schools can ban all weapons.
"That's an argument for another bill, for another debate," said Waddoups, the Senate majority leader. "I want to concentrate the debate on the University of Utah."
Monday's amendment states that nothing in Utah law would prohibit a private property owner from restricting possession or use of a firearm on his or her property. But the Tuesday proposal would have carved out of that provision private property used "as a place of public accommodation" such as stores, amusement parks and privately owned schools and universities.
The amendment failed on a 13-13 vote when several senators protested that businesses should have the right to ban guns on their premises.
"We're almost muddying the water" by passing the amendment, said Sen. Carlene Walker, R- Cottonwood Heights. "I have a small business, employing five people. I don't want guns in my office."
Sen. Karen Hale, D-Salt Lake City, raised the concern that Waddoups' proposal could interfere with the Delta Center's practice of barring concealed firearms from Jazz basketball games and other events at the facility in downtown Salt Lake City. She also said it could crimp LDS Church-owned Brigham Young University from enforcing its policy of no guns on campus.
