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utah-firearms-digest       Tuesday, July 7 1998       Volume 02 : Number 081




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 06:56:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: 4th of July blitz

- ---------- Forwarded messages ----------
Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:53:10 EDT
From: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Urgent request to log your opinion on web site

Dear Citizens:

Mark ([e-mail]) is requesting that we all log onto the following
listed web site and voice our opinion on our U.S. Constitutionally guarantee
to keep and bear arms and to be a part of the Unorganized Militia to protect
our country from EVIL government.

USCMike1


Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 00:34:59 -0400
From: HARRY VANDOLOSKI <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gun Control Survey

Time magazine is doing an online survey. It was running 55% to 45%
against us but we're gaining fast! Please take the poll and pass
the address on to others!!
http://www.pathfinder.com/time/polls/gunpoll.html


Subj: Help
Date: 98-07-05 20:12:54 EDT
From: NRA Glock
To: USCMike1

http://www.pathfinder.com/time/polls/gunpoll.html TIME.com Poll On Guns

Send to all your readers - our 4th of July blitz has really changed the
"fixing of the numbers" - let's turn things around!!!!

Mark



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 06:56:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: Verification of Colt's donation to Schumer

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 06:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Joe W wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Jul 98, [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON) wrote:

>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 14:18:29 -0400
>>From: E Pluribus Unum <[e-mail]>
>>To: E Pluribus Unum Email Distribution Network <[e-mail]>

>>Verification of Colt's donations to Schumer and the Democratic party
>>can be found at www.tray.com/fecinfo

>Colt?  or Zilkha?

>If you want to go after Colt, read Colt CEO(?)/President(?) Ron
>Stewart's column about user proprietary technology and federal
>standards for firearm ownership.

I post what I find about this, from any side.

>>It is painfully obvious that Colt is buttering both sides of it's
>>bread. Many law firms, businesses and corporations do the same thing.
>>Play both sides, so someone in the firm always stays on the good side
>>of those in power.

>>Also the gentleman may go to the same synagogue, so it might be
>>considered like a donation to a family member.

>And Bill Clinton is a Southern Baptist, therefore we can smear all
>Southern Baptists with the Clinton brush?  Hard to decide here whether
>this is a little mild anti-Semitism or just simple-minded b.s.  I
>would have thought if ANY firearms list was sensitive to religious
>slurs, it would be the Utah list.

>Joe W

Sorry, but I won't edit these forwards to remove potentially offensive
material. I do post opposing viewpoints. If someone wants to reduce his
credibility with such slurs, that is his affair. I hope the URL Dennis
Walker provided above doesn't share such flaws.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 98 06:56:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: NRA-ILA FAX ALERT

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mike Megeath <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
Subject: NRA-ILA FAX ALERT <forwarded>
Date: Friday, July 03, 1998 9:09 AM

NRA-ILA FAX ALERT
11250 Waples Mill Road * Fairfax, VA  22030
Phone: [phone] * Fax: [phone] * [e-mail]
Vol. 5, No. 26  7/2/98

HCI WANTS TO PREVENT FIREARMS, NOT FIREARM INJURIES

Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI), through their "educational" spin-off
the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence (CPHV), recently
introduced their latest "education" program -- "Steps to Prevent
Firearm Injury in the Home," or "STOP 2." CPHV Chair Sarah Brady,
flanked by Health and Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala,
held a press conference on June 30 to make the announcement.
Brady claims that the program is designed to: raise awareness
about gun risks in the home, serve as a counseling tool to reduce
the number of gun-related injuries and deaths in the home, and
place gun violence prevention at the forefront of national public
health concerns. The program is to be distributed to "all health
providers who counsel clients/patients and families on health
promotion," and has been funded by the Metropolitan Life
Foundation, which was established in 1976 by the Metropolitan
Life Insurance Company. Of course, if HCI and CPHV were truly
interested in helping to reduce firearm-related injuries, they
would look toward safety programs that have already proven to be
successful, like those developed by NRA. NRA has been in the
injury prevention business since 1871, and over the last eight
years alone we have spent over $100 million teaching firearm
safety and responsibility. Largely due to NRA education programs,
annual fatal firearm accidents are currently at an all-time low,
both in rate and number. It is important to remember that
firearm-related violence is a criminological problem, not a
public health issue. HCI is the same organization that supports
the current bans on the private ownership of firearms in cities
like Washington, D.C., and Morton Grove, Ill. Their own "STOP 2"
literature even suggests the following as health-care
"counseling": "Remind (parents/clients) that the safest thing is
not to have a gun in the home, especially not a handgun."
Remember, NRA has 40,000 certified firearm safety instructors
across the U.S., 700 NRA Training Counselors -- the experts who
train the instructors -- and the award-winning Eddie Eagle Gun
Safety Program, which has reached over 10 million children since
its inception in 1988. Eddie Eagle has even been adopted by the
FBI Academy, for those agents who have families with young
children. If you would like a copy of our Firearm Safety In
America Fact Sheet, please call the Grassroots Division at 1-800-
392-8683. For information on the Eddie Eagle Program, please call
1-800-231-0752.

TANYA METAKSA ADDRESSES LIBERTARIANS

The Libertarian National Convention started today, July 2, in
Washington, D.C., and NRA-ILA Executive Director Tanya K. Metaksa
addressed the attendees, promoting NRA's message of safety,
responsibility, and freedom. Mrs. Metaksa spoke of NRA's
unflinching support of the right to keep and bear arms, a message
not lost on Libertarians, whose official party platform is in
support of the Second Amendment. Other speakers include a diverse
collection of prominent individuals, including Roy Innis, the
national chairman of the Congress of Racial Equality (and also an
NRA Board Member), Harry Browne, the 1996 Libertarian Party's
presidential candidate, Dan & Amy Gifford, the producers of the
Academy Award-nominated documentary, "Waco: The Rules of
Engagement," and several Libertarians currently holding public
offices. For a copy of the speech call 1-800-392-8683, or you can
find it on our website at http://www.nra.org .



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 09:45:50 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: FW: Gun Confiscation

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Subject: FW: Gun Confiscation
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forwarded from CEBS

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Charlie Mealy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Saturday, July 04, 1998 3:40 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Gun Confiscation
>=20
> This is the site for the SF Underground (Special Forces). The
> following is a quote from their page, it makes for interesting
> reading.
>=20
"In the face of the spectre of disarmament of the American public by
military force, the big question now is whether military personnel would
fire on American citizens who resisted. In a survey circulated within
the military last year, it was found that only 20% would follow orders
to fire on Americans during gun seizure raids. On radio talk shows,
military officers stated outright that they would be much more inclined
to fire on superiors who gave such an order."

> http://www.creative.net/~star/resister.htm
>=20


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:52:34 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: 800 number for Contacting congresscritters

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From the Michael Reagan web site.

NEW Toll Free Congressional Number!=20
1-800-361-5222: In order to make this number work, you must=20
punch in a zip code from the district of the House Member you=20
are calling or the area code for the Senator you are calling.=20
Then a computer will automatically connect you to the office.=20
You do NOT get connected to the Capitol Switchboard.=20
HOWEVER, if the zip code 90001 is entered, the Capitol=20
Switchboard will answer and one can then ask for ANY=20
Member's office. This number is brought to us compliments of=20
the AARP.

/Allen


- -----------------
Big Brother is watching you!
http://www.shire.net/big.brother/


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:57:32 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: In Memory of July 4, 1776

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Here is part of a post to me from a friend.  I am reposting it without =
name
credits as I am sure he would want it that way.  It is interesting and =
with
regard to our history and founding these comments are very pertinent.



:

>
>
>      By the way, have you ever read much about the Russo-Finnish War of
>      1939?  If you want a textbook model of how guns in the hands of
>      citizen patriots who have grown up knowing how to use them are THE
>      surest way to resist tyranny, just take a look at that war.  When
>      Stalin's armies moved into Finland, they took a terrible beating.
>      Finnish hunters and outdoorsmen decimated entire Soviet regiments.
>      They even did an admirable job of standing up to armored units.
>      Despite the fact that not a single nation, including the U.S., =
would
>      offer Finland any substantive aid, the Finns held their own for a =
good
>      time  --  until, of course, they were simply overwhelmed by =
numbers.
>      Even in defeat, though, they retained their sovereignty and much of
>      their territorial integrity.  When all was said and done, an =
estimated
>      million soviet dead were left to fertilize the Finnish countryside.
>
>      When I was an undergraduate, I took a history course called "Nazi
>      Germany," taught by an old Hungarian tank commander who had been
>      captured and spent years in a Soviet prison camp after the war.
>      Sometimes, he would come into class and say, "I don't feel like
>      teaching today.  How would you like to hear some war stories?"  =
Then,
>      he would tell about life as an Axis soldier and conditions in a
>      post-war Soviet prison camp.  As far as I was concerned, that was =
as
>      good of an education as anything that we ever read in books.
>
>      Anyway, this professor mentioned a couple of times that the prison
>      camp to which he had been sent had soldiers of many different
>      nationalities.  Out of them all, though, he said that the Russian
>      guards kept their distance from the Finns  --  because, even after =
the
>      war, the Russians still feared them.  Not only had they been superb
>      marksmen, but also the Finns were apparently expert at the art of
>      sneaking into the camps of Soviet invaders at night and slitting =
the
>      throats of sleeping soldiers.
>
>      The Finns in 1939 and the Hungarians in 1956 are both shining =
examples
>      to me of what a people are capable of when armed properly  --  how
>      much more successful might the Hungarians have been had they =
actually
>      had their own guns to practice and train with, rather than having =
to
>      rely on weapons captured from the offices of the secret police?
>
>      Talk to you later.
>
> .





- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:06:14 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Fratrum: Is Gun Control a Christian Issue? (fwd)

Some of you may find these arguments useful.

On Jul 04, Eugene W. Gross wrote:

[-------------------- text of forwarded message follows -------------------=
- -]

(From http://www.patriarch.com/articles.html -- Patriarch magazine's Web =
page.)

Is Gun Control a Christian Issue?

It is not easy to keep a proper balance on issues like gun control.  We =
must approach any public policy issue in a Christ-centered way, with an =
eye on the cross, or we do, indeed, run the risk of merely parroting the =
arguments of those whose only hope is in man and his institutions.

We have received a number of letters on this subject and some of my =
brothers in our local fellowship have challenged me on the issue of =
balance, tone, and keeping a Christ-like attitude in these matters.  Let =
me try to summarize how I see things, with these admonitions in mind.

(1) Christians need explicitly Christian arguments on issues.  I can see =
how Larry Pratt's article (Patriarch, Issue # 12) would bother some who =
are looking for a Christian perspective.  Mr. Pratt is a godly man and =
elder in his church, but the piece we reprinted was written for general =
audiences and contained no explicit references to God or his Word.  This =
will not be the last time we use materials on public policy issues that =
express what we believe are views consistent with a Christian perspective =
but which do not make the connection obvious.  The problem is that there =
simply is not much written by Christians who apply the Bible
thoughtfully to themes in contemporary society.  But we need to add =
something to make the connection clear, perhaps an introduction to the =
article or an accompanying piece.

(2) Our hope is in God, not in government or guns.  One risk in taking =
seriously issues of public policy like gun control is that we may give the =
impression that we trust in political solutions to our problems or that we =
depend on guns for our family protection.  This is not the case.  Unless =
the Lord protects our house and watches over our nation, there is nothing =
we can do (Psalm 127:1).  Prayer is always our first responsibility =
because it expresses where our true hope lies.  This, however, does not =
remove our responsibility to act in other ways that are
glorifying to God.=20

(3) Physical defense is a godly man's responsibility.  God is a defender =
of the vulnerable (Exod. 22:22-24; Psalm 68:5).  Rescuing those who are =
threatened with harm is commanded by God, and those who fail to act will =
be judged (Prov.=20
24:11,12).  Abram and David used physical force to rescue their families =
when they were attacked by enemies (Gen. 14; 1 Sam.  30).  The commandment =
prohibiting murder (Exod.  20:13) suggests a responsibility to oppose =
those who aim to break this commandment.  Inaction is complicity when it =
is in our power to act.

We must "turn the other cheek" to personal offenses and be willing to give =
up all our rights, as Jesus did.  Nowhere, however, does Scripture suggest =
that we should turn our eyes away and do nothing to protect those who are =
vulnerable, especially those placed by God under our protection.=20

Keeping and using a gun for the defense of his family is one way a father =
bears the image of his heavenly Father-Protector.  He must trust in God, =
not his gun; but God may choose to extend his sovereign protection through =
that gun.  God's works are often executed through responsible human =
action.

(4) Defense of the Constitution is a godly citizen's responsibility.  We =
do not live in Rome under Nero.  We live in a constitutional republic.  =
Nero was the law and Christians had no grounds or means to oppose his =
tyranny.  In the United States, the Constitution is the law which every =
citizen, and especially every public official, is obligated to obey.  It =
is the responsibility of citizens to oppose those who seek to disobey the =
law of the land, including public officials.  Failure to actively uphold =
the law is failure to submit to the Lord who establishes civil authority.  =
Christian responsibility requires defense of the Second Amendment.  To =
yield to unlawful laws in our system of government is to abdicate the =
responsibility which God in his providence has placed in our hands.  We =
are not attacking government when we speak out against gun control or in =
support of the right to form militias; we are defending the highest law of =
the land from its attackers=3D97and that is our Christian duty!

The influence of Christianity and a biblical world view made this nation =
possible.  We are the first nation to have put the power of civil =
government (yes, even the power of the sword; Rom. 13:4) ultimately in the =
hands of the citizens.  This was possible because of the character and =
virtue of our predominately Christian populace.  Individual citizens were =
expected to govern themselves under God's law and then, in turn, participat=
e in the governance of the nation.  Our form of government is an historical=
 outgrowth of the gospel of Christ.  The personal liberty from sin and =
Satan which Christ grants the individual believer bore fruit in a system =
of government that was not only founded upon these spiritually free men, =
but assured their liberty in every sphere of public life.  The civil =
liberty we enjoy in America is a result of the gospel.

It is wrong for Christian Americans to revert to a sub-Christian understand=
ing of government, to live as if they were in Rome and sheepishly =
acquiesce to tyranny.  In the United States, the people are in charge, =
under God; we are responsible for the direction of this nation.  I am =
afraid too many Christians lack the knowledge or the character to act like =
Christian citizens any more.  It is no virtue to suffer persecution when =
it results from ignorance, cowardice, laziness, or a simple unwillingness =
to be responsible for the direction of the nation.  That would be =
suffering for our unrighteousness.

(5) Armed defense against unlawful tyranny is a last resort.  In our =
system of government each citizen is part of the militia, the armed =
defenders of liberty.  When the King of England broke his word and =
violated the laws he had promised to observe, the colonists were prepared =
to defend their nation with arms, but only after every diplomatic recourse =
had been exhausted.  Today we must fight for the Constitution at the =
ballot box, not with bullets.  But we must also assert, as the Constitution=
 does, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and even to organize =
themselves as citizen militias (which was the whole point of the amendment)=
.  And, yes, the government should fear the people.  That is just another =
way of saying that public officials ought to fear breaking their oath to =
uphold the law.  In our republic, the citizens have the final word in =
defending the law, first at the ballot box, but also with bullets if =
tyranny should ever proceed that far.

(6) Political issues are not our main task, though they ought not be =
neglected.  The church of Jesus Christ has failed miserably in recent =
years to live out her calling.  We have failed in our homes, in our =
churches, in our communities.  We must begin again to proclaim the whole =
counsel of God, calling all men to the cross of Christ for salvation and =
to a life of discipleship.  Government power has increased as Christians =
have abdicated responsibility over more and more areas of their lives: =
education, health care, financial security, care for the needy, etc.=20

Our main task is not to fix the government but to proclaim the cross of =
Christ and start living like Jesus' disciples again in all these areas and =
more.  It is too easy to blame government for our woes and to seek merely =
political solutions to them.  At the same time, we cannot neglect our role =
as citizens and our stewardship for the direction of the civil government.

We just have to keep our priorities in order.  "Politics" is just one =
among many responsibilities of Christ's disciples.  If we lose our =
political battles, it's no big deal because our hope is in God, not in =
government.  But if we lose them because we neglected one of the duties =
God has given us, we will answer to Him for it.=20

(7) Christian Americans need to study the Founding Fathers.  Our Christian =
forefathers did not have our ambivalence bout being Christians and =
citizens.  They did not think it contradictory for Christian men to talk =
of the Gospel of Christ in one breath and the need for war in the next.  =
They spoke of both without tension because they saw both as matters of =
Christian responsibility.  They saw that war can be an application of the =
gospel, a Christian response to unlawful tyranny.  The gospel asserts the =
authority of the resurrected, ascended and reigning Jesus; and maintenance =
of a lawful civil order (established by God) is an expression of our =
allegiance to our Lord and King.

Patrick Henry wrote: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often =
that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians;=
 not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. " Larry Pratt's =
article reminded us of how it was Patrick Henry who gathered the militia =
to oppose the unlawful acts of the British Governor in Virginia=3D97and =
issued his stirring call to arms in a church! This is the same man who =
cried, "Give me liberty or give me death. " Those words could be spoken by =
a godless man concerned only with his "right" to do as he pleased.  =
However, what the Christian patriot meant was (in expansive paraphrase): =
"I am willing to die to uphold the lawful order of civil government which =
God, in His providence, has established in this nation, an order which =
allows maximum liberty to self-governing Christians."

I fear too many Christian men today would think it virtuous to choose =
death rather than fight for the liberty God has granted us under law.  We =
are losing our country because we have forgotten what we have inherited, =
because we have a weak and feminized view of what it means to be Christian =
citizens.  A generation of Christian men raised on such simplistic =
caricatures as "tender Jesus, meek and mild" would scold Patrick Henry =
were he alive today, speaking and acting as he did before.  We need to =
rediscover the robust and manly faith that embraced the tender mercies of =
the gospel in one hand and the fearful responsibilities of godly citizenshi=
p in the other.  They are not contradictory; they are both part of a =
Christian man's calling.  In fact, given America's origins and civil =
structure, we could say that our citizenship responsibilities are a direct =
outgrowth of the gospel of Christ in history.

We talk about gun control because we believe it is part of how we express =
our allegiance to Jesus Christ as Lord=3D97Lord even of our nation, and =
our guns.=20

[------------------------- end of forwarded message -----------------------=
- -]

- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
      *****    Blessings On Thee, Oh Israel!    *****
- ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------=
- -
An _EFFECTIVE_ | Insured | All matter is vibration.  | Let he who hath no
weapon in every | by COLT; |     --  Max Plank  | weapon sell his
hand =3D Freedom |  DIAL  | In the beginning was the | garment and buy a
on every side! | 1911-A1.  | word.   --  The Bible  | sword. --Jesus =
Christ
- ----------------+----------+--------------------------+--------------------=
- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 11:16:02 -0600
From: Will Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: NRA joins Clinton & Rendell]

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....And one person I know claims that Tanya Metaksa is a
"radical gun-rights activist"....  More horse-pucky from
the world's largest gun-control organization - the NRA.

S. Thompson wrote:
>
> http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2554912546-4ab
>
> Final proof the NRA endorses gun control...
> Non-residents?  Is that illegal aliens or non-residents of Philadelphia?
>
> > [INFOBEAT | ][Profile | ][Feedback | ][About | ][Terms | ][Custom]
> >
> >  -----------------------------------------------------------
> >  [Image]
> >  -----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > 10:13 AM ET 07/03/98
> >
> > Pressure builds for Clinton backing of NRA gun program
> >
> >
> >             By David Morgan
> >             PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - The Clinton administrationis under
> > growing pressure to support a program for combating gun violence
> > touted by the president's political adversaries at the National
> > Rifle Association, officials say.
> >             In recent weeks, senior officials in the Justice Department
> > and the FBI have begun to take a close look at an initiative
> > called ``Operation Exile'' which has dramatically cut
> > gun-related crime in Richmond, Virginia, through the strict
> > enforcement of existing federal gun statutes.
> >             Now, Philadelphia Mayor Edward Rendell is asking the White
> > House to endorse a plan to make his city the test case for a
> > similar program that could serve as a model for other big U.S.
> > cities from the District of Columbia to Los Angeles.
> >             The Republican-controlled Congress, at the urging of the NRA
> > and Pennsylvania Sen. Arlen Specter, has reopened a Senate
> > appropriations bill to set aside $1.5 million for extra federal
> > prosecutors, investigators and other resources in Philadelphia.
> >             U.S. prosecutors in the fifth largest U.S. city already are
> > talking about the specifics of such a program with local police
> > and say the talks could produce a general blueprint by autumn.
> >             ``Any idea that has the chance to reduce the level of gun
> > violence in Philadelphia, I'm willing to try,'' said Rendell, an
> > influential liberal Democrat and staunch Clinton ally who is
> > ordinarily no friend of the NRA.
> >             Rendell expects the White House to back the initiative for
> > Philadelphia after he meets with administration officials in
> > Washington later this summer.
> >             ``I do believe they're going to cooperate, notwithstanding
> > the very bitter personal nature of the NRA rhetoric against the
> > president,'' the mayor told Reuters. ``The president's always
> > been better than that and bigger than that, and I think he'll be
> > that here. And I think it's going to pass the Congress.''
> >             City officials in Rochester, New York, say they too are
> > considering a similar approach to that city's gun problems.
> >             The idea is to prosecute every violation of federal gun
> > statutes, which include specific prohibitions of gun possession
> > by convicted felons, drug users and dealers, nonresidents,
> > fugitives and people convicted of domestic violence. Violators
> > can expect five years in a federal prison on average.
> >             In Richmond, where Operation Exile has been under way since
> > early 1997, the rate of gun-related homicides has fallen more
> > than 60 percent and the program has won endorsements not only
> > from the NRA but from leading gun-control advocates including
> > the Washington-based group, Handgun Control Inc.
> >             ``Nobody believes that criminals should be allowed to carry
> > guns,'' said assistant U.S. Attorney David Schiller, one of the
> > federal prosecutors who came up with the initiative.
> >             The NRA, the powerful gun lobby that popularized the slogan
> > ''guns don't kill people, people kill people,'' likes the idea
> > of addressing the nation's gun epidemic with strict enforcement
> > of existing statutes because NRA officials believe the approach
> > would show that tougher gun-control laws are unnecessary.
> >             NRA President Charlton Heston touted the idea of making one
> > U.S. city a zero-tolerance zone for federal gun violations a
> > month ago at the group's annual convention in Philadelphia.
> >             Philadelphia would be a prime candidate not only because it
> > is the city where the constitutional right to bear arms was
> > formulated and adopted in the late 18th century, but because it
> > has since become a national leader in firearms violence.
> >             Law enforcement officials say guns were involved in 82
> > percent of the more than 400 murders committed in Philadelphia
> > last year, constituting the grim pace of nearly one firearm
> > homicide a day.
> >             The administration has been lukewarm to a Philadelphia
> > experiment, however.
> >             White House spokesman Joe Lockhart said the administration
> > was not opposed to a program for Philadelphia. But he said
> > Clinton wanted to expand U.S. Attorney's Offices nationwide and
> > blamed the NRA's Republican allies in Congress for not
> > supporting funding for such a plan.
> >             ``Our concern is that running this program somehow becomes
> > an excuse not to fund these other programs and that would be a
> > mistake,'' Lockhart told Reuters.
> >             ``We're for enforcing gun laws all across America. If the
> > NRA wants to jump in and convince their traditional allies that
> > they ought to support this funding, then Philadelphia,
> > Washington, New York, Los Angeles will all take advantage of
> > expanded gun prosecution. There's legislation before Congress
> > now that they need to act on.''
> >             Specter's funding measure for Philadelphia would pay for
> > five prosecutors dedicated to gun cases and at least 10 extra
> > investigators for the Philadelphia office of the U.S. Bureau of
> > Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
> >             Operation Exile in Richmond was launched without extra
> > resources or special endorsements from the White House and
> > Congress.
> >          ^REUTERS@



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 11:16:37 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Citizens Protection Act  HR 3396

Would you like to see a law that makes it illegal for federal law officers =
to break the law?


HR 3396
The Attorney General shall establish, by plain rule, that it shall be =
punishable conduct for any Department of Justice employee to--

(1) in the absence of probable cause seek the indictment of any person;

(2) fail promptly to release information that would exonerate a person =
under indictment;

(3) intentionally mislead a court as to the guilt of any person;

(4) intentionally or knowingly misstate evidence;

(5) intentionally or knowingly alter evidence;

(6) attempt to influence or color a witness' testimony;

(7) act to frustrate or impede a defendant's right to discovery;

(8) offer or provide sexual activities to any government witness or =
potential witness;

(9) leak or otherwise improperly disseminate information to any person =
during an investigation; or

(10) engage in conduct that discredits the Department.

HR3396 is now in the House.  Call your Congresscritters and encourage them =
to promote this bill.  Try your local office as I believe Congress is in =
recess and your reps are home campaigning.

http://thomas.loc.gov


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:58:44 -0600
From: "David Sagers" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fwd: Lott/HCI Debate Full Transcript

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- -----------------------
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>X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list
>
>   Damn this guy is good. The HCI dude was foaming at the mouth.
>Time cut the debate short I'm told, I wonder why?
>
>    Copyrighted material contained within this document is used in
>compliance with the United States Code, Title 17, Section 107,
>"for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching"
>
>Regards,
>Dennis Baron
>                            ------------------------------------------
>http://www.pathfinder.com/time/community/transcripts/chattr070198.html
>
>
>More Guns, Less Crime?
>A debate between John Lott, author of More Guns, Less Crime, and Douglas
>Weil, research director of Handgun Control, Inc.
>
>Transcript from July 1, 1998
>
>Timehost: This week, TIME returned to a cover story topic it first looked
>at 30 years ago...Guns in America. Tonight we have with us a man who is =
the
>subject of one of the stories in the package -- John Lott of the =
University
>of Chicago, whose book More Guns, Less Crime argues that allowing =
citizens
>to carry concealed weapons actually lowers crime rates. We are also =
joined
>by someone who is in direct opposition to Mr. Lott's theory. He is =
Douglas
>Weil, director of research for Handgun Control, Inc. and the Center To
>Prevent Handgun Violence. Mr. Lott, perhaps you could first outline what
>your book has to say about concealed weapons. We've had a lot of =
questions
>about it already.
>
>John Lott: I find that just as criminals can be deterred by higher arrest
>or conviction rates, they can also be deterred by the fact that would-be
>victims might be able to defend themselves with a gun. Criminals are less
>likely to commit a crime as the probability that a victim is going to be
>able to defend themselves increases.
>
>Timehost: Mr. Weil, your response?
>
>Douglas Weil First, there's no evidence that we have any significant
>increase in gun carrying, which means criminals are not likely to face an
>increased risk of an armed victim. Most important, when Lott's research =
was
>published, a number of academic researchers looked at this methods and =
his
>conclusions and determined his research was fundamentally flawed. The
>criticism was so convincing that even Gary Kleck, a criminologist whose
>work is often cited by John Lott and the NRA, has dismissed Lott's
>conclusions. Kleck wrote in his book, Targeting Guns, that "more likely =
the
>declines in crime coinciding with relaxation of carry laws were largely
>attributable to other factors not controlled for in the Lott Mustard
>analysis."
>
>John Lott: First, there is a very close relationship between the number =
of
>permits issued in a state and the decline in violent crime rates. Those
>states that issue the most permits have had the largest drops in violent
>crime, and over time as more permits are issued there is a continued drop
>in violent crime. As to Mr. Weil's second point, I have provided my data =
to
>researchers at 36 different universities. I believe that the vast =
majority
>would support the findings that I have provided, but if Mr. Weil has
>specific criticisms, I would be happy to address them. This is by far the
>largest study that has been done on crime, and I have tried to control =
for
>as many variables as it has been possible to control for.
>
>Alliezach_98 asks: Mr. Lott, If more guns bring less crime, how come
>virtually every other nation has less guns and less violent crime, and =
have
>taken steps to reduce guns?
>
>Lott: In fact, there's no relationship internationally between gun
>ownership and murder rates. There are many countries with gun ownership
>rates similar to or higher than what we have in the US, and they have =
very
>low murder rates. The reverse is also true. There are many countries like
>Finland, Switzerland, and New Zealand that have virtually identical gun
>ownership rates to what we have in the US, and their murder rates are
>significantly lower than those of surrounding countries. Israel, with one
>of the highest gun ownership rates in the world, has a murder rate 40%
>below Canada's. In my book, I find that the states that have had the
>highest growth in gun ownership have in fact had the biggest drops in
>violent crime rates.
>
>Douglas Weil: John said he found that states with the highest growth in =
gun
>ownership have the biggest drop in violent crime. John reached the
>conclusion using two voter exit polls in applying a made-up formula which
>concluded that the percentage of adults who own a firearm increased by =
50%
>from 1988 to 1996. But we know that's wrong. According the General Social
>Survey, gun ownership has remained essentially unchanged since at least
>1990. But the most important information is that the Voters News Service,
>which conducted the 1996 poll has said the poll cannot be used in the
>manner Dr. Lott used it. It cannot be used to say anything about gun
>ownership in any state, and it cannot be used to compare gun ownership to
>the earlier 1988 voter poll. I'd also like to respond to an earlier =
point.
>Earlier John said that he believes that other researchers would support =
his
>conclusions. Dan Black Dan Nagin are two researchers are two researchers =
he
>gave his data to. They concluded, after re-analyzing the data, that "it
>would be a mistake to formulate policy based on the findings of Dr. =
Lott's
>study." In the Journal of Legal Studies, January 1988, they used a
>well-known statistical test which proved that John failed to control for
>other factors that affect crime rates. Again, I repeat, the analysis was =
so
>convincing that Gary Kleck has dismissed Lott's findings.
>
>John Lott: Mr. Weil is simply wrong about the polls. There has been a =
large
>increase in gun ownership in the last decade. This increase occurred
>especially around the introduction of the Brady Law in 1994. My empirical
>work accounts for differences in polling standards over time. And it =
tries
>to account for other changes that could affect changing crime rates over
>time. To get to his second point, the debate among economists using the
>data I've put together ranges from people who find very large drops in
>violent crime after concealed handgun laws are adopted, to those who find =
a
>small amount of evidence that crime has fallen slightly. The vast =
majority
>of studies support my findings. The Black and Nagin study that Mr. Weil
>refers to eliminated all counties with fewer than 100,000 people, 86% of
>all counties in the US. Even at that point they were only able to weaken =
my
>results when they also threw out the data from Florida from the sample. =
Mr.
>Weil says that I haven't accounted for factors that could affect the =
crime
>rate. If he could suggest what they are, I would be interested in hearing
>them.
>
>Douglas Weil: As far as my misreading polls, let's cite the Journal of
>Criminal Law and Criminology: "The facts of gun ownership by women are
>dramatically different from that described by pro-gun groups and the =
media.
>According to the best available data, the ownership of firearms among =
women
>is not increasing. The gender gap is not closing, and the level of
>ownership is much smaller than commonly stated." This is from analysis of
>the General Social Survey.
>
>Timehost: We have two related questions for Mr. Weil now: We have a lot =
of
>questions, so it would be great if you can keep your answers a little
>shorter. Thanks.
>
>Redcloak_98 asks: How does HCI explain Mexico's high violent crime rate =
and
>low gun ownership rate?
>
>FireMedic291 asks: I have seen stupid acts of violence occur more with
>knives and impact weapons...than just with guns...criminals are criminals
>-- they will use whatever TOOLS they can find. Why not outlaw knives and
>baseball bats?
>
>Douglas Weil: First, if I have a choice of being chased by someone with a
>baseball bat or someone with a gun, I would rather be chased by someone
>with a baseball bat. Now there is a growing body of scientific studies
>which show an association between gun ownership rates and murder and
>suicide, when you compare across countries. Most recently, the Centers =
for
>Disease Control and Prevention reported that the gun death rate for
>children in the United States was many times higher than the combined =
rate
>for 25 other high income countries. The difference: we have guns at much
>higher rates. What's important to know is that, while our rates of =
violence
>are not significantly different than many other countries, our death =
rate,
>our fatal violence rate, is much higher, and the reason is that we have =
far
>greater access to guns.
>
>John Lott: Bad things obviously happen with guns. And guns make it easier
>for those things to happen, but guns also prevent bad things from
>happening, and make it easier for people to defend themselves. The =
ability
>to defend oneself with a gun is particularly important for those people =
who
>are relatively weak physically, such as women and the elderly. Women who
>behave passively when they are confronted by a criminal are 2.5 times =
more
>likely to be seriously injured than women who defend themselves with a =
gun.
>There's no evidence that murder rates are higher in those countries with
>higher levels of gun ownership. The only way that people have been able =
to
>show such relationships is to selectively pick just a few countries to =
make
>a comparison between. When one looks at all countries, there is in fact a
>negative relationship between suicide rates and gun ownership.
>
>Timehost: These next two for Mr. Lott:
>
>Robtboyd asks: Do you think children should be trained in school to use
>guns?
>
>Dick_Brudzynski asks: ? for JL: Should teachers be equipped with guns so
>they can protect their students?
>
>John Lott: I think that educating children about gun safety is very
>important, and would reduce accidental gun deaths. Accidental gun deaths
>are probably much smaller than most people would believe. In 1996, =
children
>ages 5 and under were involved in 30 accidental gun deaths. For ages =
6-14,
>there were 170. If one compares that to other ways that children die
>accidentally, these numbers are relatively small. For ages 6-14, 950
>children drowned in pools, and 15 times more children die in automobile
>accidents. With regard to teachers, I have four school age children, and =
I
>teach. And so I don't take my answer to this question very lightly. I =
think
>the 1995 law that banned guns within 1000 feet of a school was
>well-intentioned, but has had unintended consequences. Rather than making
>schools safe for children, these laws have made it relatively safer for =
bad
>people to threaten our children. I don't think that all or even a
>significant number of teachers or administrators need to be allowed to
>carry concealed handguns, but my research has indicated that allowing
>citizens to carry concealed handguns has a huge deterrent effect on
>multiple victim public shootings. Looking at multiple victim public
>shootings from 1977 through 1995 indicates that the passage of
>right-to-carry concealed handgun laws is associated with an 84% drop in =
the
>rate at which these multiple victim public shootings occur. To the extent
>that shootings still occur in those states with concealed handgun laws,
>they tend to overwhelmingly occur in those parts of the state where
>concealed handguns are not allowed. No other factors, like the death
>penalty, arrest rates for murder, waiting periods, or background checks
>have any affect on reducing these multiple victim shootings.
>
>Douglas Weil: First, John's research has been dismissed by people on both
>sides of the gun issue, including Gary Kleck, and, the organization that
>produced the most recent poll that you used to determine more guns equals
>less crime, said that you misused the data. So, let's not pretend that =
your
>research shows anything about effects of allowing people to carry =
concealed
>handguns on mass shootings. Now, while Dr. Lott says that there are few
>accidental deaths by firearms among young children, what's clear is that
>they are both predictable and preventable. We know that as designed,
>virtually every handgun can be fired by children as young as three and =
four
>years of age. This is a design flaw in firearms and it is information
>available to the gun industry. There is no reason that guns should be
>designed so that children who are only three and four years old can fire
>them. Furthermore, we know that one third of gun owning parents keep =
their
>guns unlocked and half those parents keep their guns loaded. There is no
>reason for gun owners to keep their guns stored, loaded, unlocked and
>accessible to children. Lyn Bates, contributing editor to Women and Guns
>magazine, wrote that guns, kept for self-defense, should be kept in a
>locked box and that children should not be allowed to see the gun owner
>open the box. Dr. Lott refers to educating children. So does the NRA =
which
>touts its Eddie Eagle program. The problem with both Dr. Lott's and the
>NRA's position is that it puts the responsibility for gun safety on
>children and not on gun owners who keep their guns improperly stored and
>gun makers who continue to design guns that can be fired by any child as
>well as by any unauthorized user who steals the guns, which are not
>properly locked away.
>
>Jemonaly asks: Mr. Weil: Why does HCI and other gun control groups seek =
to
>ban ownership of firearms (or seriously control it) rather than focusing =
on
>holding people accountable for their actions?
>
>Douglas Weil: First, HCI and the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence do =
not
>support a ban on the ownership of firearms, including handguns. We do =
seek
>reasonable gun laws. We know that limiting handgun purchases to one gun =
per
>month and requiring background checks on all handgun purchases has a
>significant impact on stopping illegal gun trafficking. I would like to
>know if John Lott supports limiting handgun purchases to something like =
one
>gun a month and supports mandatory background checks and waiting periods
>which have been shown to stop gun trafficking. Neither law impinges on an
>individual's privilege of owning a firearm or using that gun for self
>protection. Those are the types of laws supported by Handgun Control.
>
>John Lott: Unfortunately, while laws such as the Brady Law are well
>intentioned, my book provides evidence that their effect is actually
>counter-productive. The waiting period portion of the Brady Law has no
>effect on murder rates or robbery rates but is actually associated with a
>few percent increase in rape and aggravated assault rates. There are a =
few
>cases, particularly for women, who have noticed that they may be being
>stalked, where the delay in obtaining a gun caused by the waiting period
>has serious consequences for their safety. My book provides the first
>systematic study that's been done on the Brady Law and state waiting
>periods. My research on background checks indicates that they have no
>effect in preventing criminals from obtaining guns. My concern with the
>many rules that Handgun Controls proposes is that they will significantly
>raise the price of guns, and hurt the ability of poor, law-abiding =
citizens
>to obtain guns to protect themselves. My research indicates that it is =
the
>poor who live in high crime, urban areas who benefit the most from
>increased gun ownership. In response to Mr. Weil's continued references =
to
>Gary Kleck, I would like to quote what Mr. Kleck actually says about my
>book: "John Lott has done the most extensive, thorough and sophisticated
>study we have on the effects of loosening gun control laws."
>
>Timehost: All right, we're going to run a bit over here. We have one
>comment that I'd be interested in getting both your reactions to:
>
>LUCKY77_ asks: I think that it is people that kill people and not guns.. =
if
>everybody was informed and taught about guns there would be less crime..
>people also have less respect for life and it is in the people that lies
>the problem
>
>Douglas Weil: First, John only partially quoted Gary Kleck from the back
>flap of John's book. Nowhere does Gary say that John has proved anything.
>And again, I refer you directly to page 372 of Gary Kleck's book, =
Targeting
>Guns. Second, since John's data does not cover the years following
>implementation of the Brady Act, it's hard to know how he can claim to =
have
>studied the impact of the Brady law on crime rates or criminal access to
>guns. We know from a study of data maintained by the Bureau of Alcohol
>Tobacco and Firearms that implementation of the Brady Act cut gun
>trafficking from Ohio to Michigan. 66% of guns recovered in Michigan,
>bought before Brady and traced to other states by the police, were traced
>to Ohio. After Ohio started conducting background checks, the percentage
>fell by two-thirds to 22%.
>
>Timehost: OK, let's get back to the comment already presented for a
>moment....The premise is that it's people that cause violence, not guns,
>and that the problem of our crime-ridden society lies in people, not the
>weapons they use. Your reactions?
>
>Douglas Weil: As for the question, people kill people with guns. Some of
>those deaths are accident and suicides. And they can be prevented by
>designing guns that cannot be fired by children. Some of those killing
>occur when criminals use guns. We can reduce the demand for guns by
>criminals as evidenced in Boston, where law enforcement applied severe
>pressure to youth gangs. And we can reduce the supply of guns available =
to
>criminals with background checks, waiting periods, one gun a month laws,
>and by requiring that guns be stored in a locked box.
>
>John Lott: Evidently, Mr. Weil has not read my book. The data that I =
study
>goes from the end of 1977 through the end of 1994, which thus includes =
the
>first year that the Brady Law was in effect. Mr. Weil cites recent =
federal
>government evidence of the effectiveness of the Brady Law. Unfortunately,
>in the last couple of weeks, serious questions have arisen concerning the
>Clinton Administration's biasing of data to show benefits from the Brady
>Law. Last week, the Indianapolis Star reported that the Justice
>Department's study overstated by more than 1300% the number of handgun
>sales that were blocked in Indiana. The numbers of for Arizona were also
>off by at least 30 percent. Similar misstatements of numbers have been
>found for many other states. In every case the numbers were biased to
>support the Clinton Administration's position on the Brady Law. With =
regard
>to the second point, reducing gun ownership by criminals would be great,
>unfortunately, the rules that groups such as Handgun Control propose have =
a
>greater impact on gun ownership by law abiding citizens. Rules that =
reduce
>gun ownership more by law abiding citizens increase violent crime rates.
>
>Timehost: And with that, I'm afraid we'll have to end since we're out of
>time. Thanks to both of our guests for joining us. We've enjoyed having
>you.
>
>Timehost: Any closing comments? Very brief, please....
>
>John Lott: The question that I have tried to answer in my book is whether
>guns on net save lives or cost lives, and what impact guns have on the
>threats that people face every day from crimes like rape, robbery and
>aggravated assault. I find that police are extremely important in =
reducing
>crime rates, but police virtually always arrive on the crime scene after
>the crime has already been committed. The question is what is the best
>course of action for would be victims when they are confronted by a
>criminal. My research indicates that gun ownership is the most effective
>means for people to defend themselves, particularly for women and poor
>blacks who live in high crime urban areas.
>
>Timehost: Thank you, Mr. Lott. Now, Mr. Weil:
>
>Douglas Weil: Since August 1996 John's research has been harshly =
criticized
>by any number of academic researchers. Earlier this year, I joined Dr. =
Lott
>at the annual meeting of the American Economics Association in Chicago, =
and
>criticized John for his continued failure to address the many problems
>identified with his work. Now, without having made any significant =
changes
>to his work which would justify bringing his conclusions to a larger
>audience, Lott is restating his claims, in his book and on the op-ed =
pages
>of a number of nationally important newspapers. At some point it becomes
>irresponsible to continue to promote a study shown to have no credibility
>with those qualified to evaluate its scientific merit. It is a point that
>John passed some time ago. Finally, John, in his book and in the National
>Review, has accused gun control advocates including Handgun Control, of
>failing to address his study on the merits. He knows this is untrue. In
>August of 1996, he thanked me for comments on his paper that I made =
before
>he presented his findings at the Cato Institute. In December, Dr. Lott
>participated in a nationally televised symposium, sponsored by Handgun
>Control. John was allotted half the time available to all researchers to
>give him ample time to respond to his critics. It isn't often that an
>advocacy group pays to put its opponent on national TV. We did it. His
>study fails on the merits. Thank you for your time.
>
>John Lott: Thank you, but let me just say that that is a misrepresentation=

>of my research and of the discussions we have had.
>
>Timehost: Thanks to both of our guests and good night. And a gigantic =
thank
>you to the audience for its terrific questions! We're very sorry that we
>didn't have the time to submit them all to our guests.
>
>NOTE: We had unusual difficulty bringing this online debate to a close, =
but
>we hope that the arguments and discussion will continue with John Lott,
>Douglas Weil, and our online readers on our bulletin boards. To join the
>debate, go to our America Under the Gun board.
>
>
******************
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End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #81
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