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utah-firearms-digest      Friday, March 27 1998      Volume 02 : Number 038




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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:50:05 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: [[e-mail]: LPU: Re: [Citizens Section - Wed March 25, 1998]]

Forwarded from LPUtah in response to Sarah's citizen article...

Jim Dexter says:

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Excellent article. My compliments to Dr.T.
- ----------


LPUtah
LPUtah -- This message sent via listserver "[e-mail]"
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- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time
 that men have died to win them." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:01:33 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gun Control Poll -Forwarded

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On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Steve Miner wrote:

> Abc news is running a poll whether more gun control would have prevented
> the shooting in Jonesboro. 58.4% No  41.5% yes Here's the link.
> http://www.abcnews.com/

As of 1:14pm EST
No 57.9%
Yes 42.0%
Total Votes 11,333

    Come on guys, we can do better than this

DVC

- --
                Regards,
                >>Dick<<



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:17:54 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Guns in School

According to Nancy Woodward in charge of pupil services for SL, if you
own guns and expose your children to them you are adding to the
potential for danger.

                                                                     [Image]
[Local]
                                                                     [Image]

                                      [Image]

       [Image]

       Utah schools not immune from a tragedy
       [Image]
       In year, Granite District tallied 28 gun incidents
       [Image]
       Last updated 03/26/1998, 10:14 a.m. MT

       Related content:
             Listening parents can avert incidents

       By Jennifer Toomer-Cook
       and Marjorie Cortez
       Deseret News staff writers

             An Arkansas middle school shooting that left four students and
       one teacher dead occurred more than 1,000 miles away. But Utah
       school officials say such a tragedy could happen here, too ù and
       without warning.
             "I don't think any of us are immune from
       those kinds of things," said Nancy Woodward,     [Image]
       supervisor of pupil services for the Salt Lake   Police arrested
       City School District. "There's always the        Andrew Golden, 11,
       danger of the copycat action."                   after Wednesday's
             While FBI statistics show school violence  slayings.
       nationwide decreased 12 percent from 1994 to     [Image]
       1996, according to a Scripps Howard News
       Service report, Utah schools are implementing safety nets where they
       can. School officials say they still need lower class sizes and more
       counselors and administrators to stem potential violence.
             In Jamesboro, Ark., Tuesday, students opened fire on
       classmates outside after another student pulled a fire alarm. Five
       were killed and 11 wounded. Two boys, ages 11 and 13, were arrested
       in the shooting and face charges in juvenile court. The older boy
       reportedly told friends "he had a lot of killing to do" after being
       jilted by a girl.
             In the Davis School District last month, a Syracuse Junior
       High student held classmates hostage at gunpoint in the school
       cafeteria. Police arrested a 14-year-old boy, later charged in
       juvenile court. No one was injured.
             Several other Utah students have been suspended for bringing
       guns to school, according to State Office of Education reports. The
       federal Safe Schools Act prohibits any weapons, even fakes, on
       school property.
             In 1996-97, Granite School District recorded 28 incidents
       involving guns, fake and real. Half involved middle school students;
       four involved elementary schoolchildren, the state office reported.
                                  Salt Lake City School District reported
        [Image]             17 incidents to the state, 10 in high school
        Mitchell Johnson    and five in middle school, during the same time
        reportedly had "a   period. Jordan School District reported four
        lot of killing to   incidents, three in high school and one at a
        do."                junior high.
        [Image]                   School violence usually results from
                            weapons brought from home "for protection," a
       common excuse students give when they're caught, Woodward said.
             "If parents have guns in their home and are exposing children
       to guns . . . they're adding to the potential for danger," Woodward
       said. "These weapons have been used for mass murders. The kid didn't
       go out and buy the gun."
             Like the Arkansas student, the Syracuse boy told friends
       something major would happen at lunchtime. Syracuse principal James
       Schmidt says students didn't report the threat due to
       "inaccessibility of someone they trusted" and out of fear a teacher
       would be harmed in intervention attempts.
             Schmidt hopes a new school resource officer and an extra
       full-time counselor can help stave off future violence. He also
       makes himself more accessible to students and urges teachers to do
       the same.
             "It's more important for me to be a friend to them and talk to
       them than be a strict disciplinarian," he said.
             Stress in middle schools is compounded by student numbers and
       relatively few administrators and counselors. More adults could be
       placed in middle schools under a $9 million legislative
       appropriation for class-size reduction.
             A team of Jordan School District educators recently asked the
       school board to place more assistant principals in middle schools,
       as policy allows for only one per school regardless of enrollment.
       "This is a safety issue. This is the most critical issue facing the
       middle school," said Mike Ernsteen, counselor at South Jordan Middle
       School. "They (administrators) can't do that job if they're being
       overloaded by work and responsibilities. It hurts the students, and
       it makes the faculty feel less safe."
             In the Salt Lake City School District, one counselor serves
       400 students due to funding shortfalls, Woodward said. With the high
       ratio, teachers and staff are urged to nurture relationships with
       students.
             But large class sizes can preclude teachers from doing so,
       said Bonnie Hansell, a teacher at Eastmont Middle School in the
       Jordan School District.
             "Some of our best students tell us they don't want to go to
       school. They don't feel like they belong. They don't feel connected.
       It's hard to feel connected in a classroom of 38-40 students," she
       said.
             Some districts seek additional law officers to help improve
       safety.
             Bountiful area junior high schools ù Mueller Park, Bountiful,
       South Davis and Millcreek ù have a grant to hire a school cop two
       hours daily and teach law-related education in Utah studies classes.
       Eleven of 13 district junior highs have police officers.
             Of the students taking officer-taught courses, 80 percent said
       they were more likely to ask for help from an officer and 70 percent
       reported they were less likely to participate in illegal acts.
             "I think students and parents and teachers are more willing to
       talk to the individual (police officer) because he's become a
       trusted friend," said Mueller Park principal Steve Mangel.
             Many Salt Lake elementary schools offer anger management
       classes patterned after a national model, Woodward said. Many school
       employees train to handle violent students.
             District officials are discussing implementing a comprehensive
       plan for major catastrophes, Woodward said.
             "We've concentrated on earthquakes and fire drills. These
       kinds of things are relatively new. We just don't have them yet."
       [Image]

       [Image]

       [Image]
                                      [Image]
[Image]


- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who
 approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but
 downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." --
 Patrick Henry, speaking to the Virginia convention for the ratification
 of the constitution on the necessity of the right to keep and bear arms.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:06:45 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Comments from BBC gun poll.

Just looked at one of two gun polls being conducted now.  One at
ABCNEWS.com, and the other at http://news.bbc.co.uk.

From the bbc poll I found the following comment that I think some of you
will be interested in.


Of course handguns should be banned. How many more children need
to be sacrificed on the altar of a ridiculous piece of paper (the
Constitution) by the self-serving high-priests of firearm worship (the
NRA)?
John Rabone, Japan

Glad this "illuminated" individual is in Japan, lets hope he stays there!


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:05:36 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Re: Comments from BBC gun poll.

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998,  DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]> posted:

>Of course handguns should be banned. How many more children need
>to be sacrificed on the altar of a ridiculous piece of paper (the
>Constitution) by the self-serving high-priests of firearm worship (the
>NRA)?
>John Rabone, Japan

I'm wondering what it is going to take for people to look beyond the
tools used and start asking how to address the real problems.  If
these young, very disturbed people had chosen to burn 5 people to
death and injure scores more by throwing a few molatov cocktails into
(over) crowded classrooms, would anyone seriously be talking about the
easy availability of gasoline and Pepsi bottles?  Would we be asking
how to keep dangerous items like matches out of the hands of
teenagers?  Would we conduct polls about whether or not gasoline and
glass jars and rags should be banned?  Or would we finally have the
collective courage to look to the root problems?

>
>Glad this "illuminated" individual is in Japan, lets hope he stays there!
>
>
>-
>
>


- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who
 approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but
 downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined." --
 Patrick Henry, speaking to the Virginia convention for the ratification
 of the constitution on the necessity of the right to keep and bear arms.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 21:11:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: LP RELEASE: Arkansas Shooting

Guns save lives, says Libertarian Party --
despite tragic shooting at Arkansas school

WASHINGTON, DC -- Tuesday's tragic massacre in an Arkansas school yard
- -- where a pair of schoolboys brutally shot and killed five unsuspecting
people -- won't cause the Libertarian Party to budge one inch on its 100%
pro-gun position, the party's chairman said today.

"The Libertarian Party will continue to fight any attempts to disarm
law-abiding Americans -- despite efforts by political vultures to exploit
this tragedy to advance their anti-gun agenda," said Steve Dasbach,
national chairman of the Libertarian Party.

"Guns not only save more lives than they cost, they are a fundamental
bulwark in our defense of liberty. Any effort to restrict that right
is not only unsafe, it's positively un-American," he said.

"Of course, our hearts go out to the victims, survivors, and families
of this tragedy. And, like all Americans, we hope that the perpetrators
are punished appropriately for this horrific crime. But don't punish the
Bill of Rights for the actions of two mentally ill juvenile criminals."

Dasbach's comments came 24 hours after two young boys, age 11 and 13,
opened fire on classmates and teachers in Jonesboro, Arkansas. Their
barrage left four students and one teacher dead, and 11 others wounded.

But aren't Libertarians somewhat leery of speaking out in favor of
guns after such a tragedy?

No, said Dasbach: "The time to defend the Second Amendment is not when
it is easy, but when it is most difficult. That is when the danger is
greatest that politicians -- perhaps well-meaning, but deluded -- will
try to revoke our Second Amendment rights.

"In fact, failing to speak out now would be to surrender to the demagogues.
We know that numerous politicians will swoop in on the blood-stained
victims of this tragedy, and use their needless deaths as an excuse to
demand that Americans give up their rights in exchange for promised
security. But the criminal behavior of young psychopaths should not be
the basis of unconstitutional laws," he said.

Besides, said Dasbach, the tragedy in Arkansas is an opportunity to
remind Americans that guns actually save lives.

"For every one innocent victim murdered in Arkansas, there are dozens
of Americans who are alive today because of the defensive use of guns,"
he pointed out.

* Research by Peter Hart Associates in 1980 found that 4% of American
households reported defensive use of a handgun within the previous five
years.

* In 1991, Gary Kleck of Florida State University estimated defensive
handgun use at between 850,000 and 2.5 million incidents per year.
Every year an estimated 2,000-3,000 criminals are killed by armed
citizens acting in self-defense.

* As many as 75 lives are protected by a gun for every life lost to
a gun, reported Kleck in "Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America"
(New York: Aldine de Gruyter Books, 1991).

* And a Cato Institute study this year found that violent crime rates
dropped dramatically in the 24 states that have passed "concealed-carry"
laws -- with murders dropping by 7.7%, rapes falling by 5.2%, and
aggravated assaults reduced by 7.7%.

"Libertarians know that guns are not the cause of America's rising
tide of violence. In fact, they're one of the solutions," said Dasbach.
"We believe the most effective way to stop human predators is by
repealing the laws prohibiting concealed weapons. We also know that guns
are the best defense an individual can have against crime, and that the
laws banning guns accomplish only one thing -- victim disarmament."

But Libertarians don't support gun rights merely as a deterrent to
crime, said Dasbach.

"We're also the only political party with the guts to publicly state,
and forcefully defend, the true purpose of the Second Amendment," he said.
"Ultimately, that purpose isn't about hunting, or collecting, or target
shooting. It's not even about stopping criminals. It's about defending
freedom against tyrants, be they foreign or domestic.

"That's why the Founding Fathers enshrined the right to keep and bear
arms into the Bill of Rights, and why Libertarians will continue to
support  that right," he said. "Yes, we mourn the victims in Arkansas
whose lives were needlessly lost because of the actions of deranged
criminals -- but we will never let criminals or opportunistic politicians
blackmail us into surrendering our fundamental rights."




- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:37:27 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: Arkansas: From a friend -Forwarded

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From: Richard Hartman <[e-mail]>
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Subject: Arkansas: From a friend
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X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

>From a friend....

- -----
When I was in Germany, at a business lunch, I was asked about all the
gun violence, as all guns are banned in Germany except for the police
and the military. My response was something like this.

1). More people died from Aids than guns.

2). More people died from Smoking than from guns ( 3 out of 4 of the
people at the table were smoking).

3). More people died from automobile accidents than guns

4). More people were killed by drunk drivers than guns (4 out of 4
people at the table had a beer in front of them.)

5). More people died from old age than from guns.

6). Most of the gun related deaths are caused by drug dealings and
gangs.

7). More people died from riding bicycles than from guns.

2 out of 4 cigarettes at the table got snuffed out prematurely, and 3
out of 4 beers did not get finished.

Because our media has been sensationalizing firearm related deaths so
much, they didn't realize the number of gun related deaths are really
insignificant in proportion to the number of other causes of death,
I believe the number is 0.1% of the total deaths are caused by
firearms. If you listen to the media, firearms are the only cause of
deaths.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:38:02 -0700
From: DAVID SAGERS <[e-mail]>
Subject: *Re: re the Arkansas situation -Forwarded

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From: David Gonzalez <[e-mail]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[e-mail]>
Subject: *Re: re the Arkansas situation
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Richard Hartman wrote:

> 2) Several of the news stories have pointed out that hunting and firearms
> are quite common in that part of the country, and generally involve children
> of that age. If ready access and familiarity with firearms is the "cause" of
> these incidents, they should be happening weekly, even daily. They're not -
> instead, they are incredibly rare.
>
> If you've thought of other discussion points, please share them. People
> knee-jerk emotionally to these incidents, and we need to be both sensitive
> and logical when helping them deal with that.

In an ABC News interview I heard while driving into work this (Wednesday)
morning, I heard an 11-year-old girl state (concerning the 13-year-old
shooter), "Sure, I used to date him, but I stopped seeing him after he
started using DRUGS!". (Query: what's an 11-year-old girl doing "dating" a
13-year-old boy, anyway?!)

Looks as though his persecution complex/paranoia *wasn't* the result of
"the gun-culture of the South" as much as it was induced by chemicals such
as PCP (an animal tranquilizer---is Jonesboro a farming town?) and certain
amphetamines.

David M. Gonzalez, Troglodyte
Wheeling, Illinois

Replies/Abuse: [e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 05:21:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: BCC POLL: SHOULD GUNS BE BANNED IN AMERICA?

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Nancy <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Date: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 8:52 PM

You might want to pass this around the WAGC circuit..........
Nancy
- ------------

< Start of Forwarded message via Prodigy Mail >>

From: Jim Pullen
Subject: BBC Poll
Date: 03/25
Time: 04:00 PM

Guys,

Just been to the BBC news page and they have a poll set up asking
the question "Should Handguns be banned in America". Votes so far
over two thirds "yes". Can we change this? Tell your pro-gun friends
on the net also.

The URL is
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_69000/69548.asp

Also leave a comment if you wish. What [gives] the BBC - a left
leaning foreign news organisation - the right to foist their anti-gun
agenda on the US?

I'm British and I'm boiling at the moment!

Jim

C&R FFL LIST
E-mail: "subscribe c-r-ffl" to [e-mail] to be ADDED
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- ------
Home Page: http://www.shelfspace.com/~c-r-ffl/
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 98 05:21:00 -0700
From: [e-mail] (SCOTT BERGESON)
Subject: More-on (Moron?) Arkansas shootings

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 00:13:45 EST
From: FreeUtah <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]

On NPR this mornin, I heard the principal of the Arkansas school where the
shootings occurred say that the school had a "zero tolerance" policy against
kids bringing weapons to school and that all the kids knew about it.

Lot of good that did!  ;-)

Governor Leavitt also said the Arkansas shootings pointed out the need
to have laws restricting weapons in schools, although when asked he
conceded that such laws would not have prevented the Arkansas shootings.

But at least we can say we did something! ;-)

Scooter!



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:33:12 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Mikey doesn't like guns

From today's Tribune:

                                [Image]
 [Image] [Image]         Friday, March 27, 1998        [Image] [Image]

                  Leavitt Wants Guns Banned at School

 BY MATTHEW BROWN
 THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


     Gov. Mike Leavitt says the shooting deaths this week in an
 Arkansas school yard signal Utah's need to ban even legally permitted
 weapons from schools.
     ``There's a commentary that could be made on the importance of
 having our schools gun-free,'' Leavitt said Thursday. ``I have
 supported and will continue to support legislation that would allow
 our schools to be gun-free zones. That would include, in my mind,
 even those who would have a permit to carry a gun.''
     Such a law wouldn't have prevented the tragedy in Jonesboro,
 Ark., where four students and a teacher were killed and 11 others
 wounded Tuesday in a fusillade of bullets fired onto the playground.
 An 11-year-old boy and a 13-year-old boy are in custody. The weapons
 were believed to have been stolen from the grandfather of one of the
 accused.
     But Leavitt said the Arkansas shooting indicates that giving
 youths any type of access to firearms in today's culture that
 glamorizes violence is ``a recipe for tragedy.''
     During his monthly news conference, the governor said he was
 disappointed that lawmakers in the recent session didn't pass
 legislation that would allow churches, private property owners and
 schools to ban adults with concealed-weapons permits from carrying
 firearms on the property.
     Three bills that would have imposed one or more of those bans
 were filed for the 1998 session.
     But Senate President Lane Beattie, R-West Bountiful, pulled his
 bill and the other two proposals died after legislative legal counsel
 advised that existing state policies prohibiting state workers from
 carrying concealed weapons and banning hidden guns on the University
 of Utah campus were unconstitutional.
     While schools and universities can impose rules banning guns,
 attorneys wrote, possession of a valid concealed-firearms permit
 overrides those rules.
     The issue first surfaced when the Legislature made it easier to
 obtain a concealed-weapons permit in 1995. Permit holders are banned
 from carrying a gun inside prisons or past the security checkpoints
 at airports, but the law said otherwise that the permits would be
 ``valid throughout the state without restriction.''
     Ironically, Utah and Arkansas recently signed an agreement that
 allows residents with permits from either state to legally carry
 hidden firearms in both states.
     Joe Venus of the Utah Gun Rights Association, which opposes
 restrictions to the state's concealed-carry laws, said Arkansas law
 prohibits concealed-weapon permit holders from taking their guns onto
 school property.
     ``Arkansas law does what the governor wants Utah law to do, and
 that didn't prevent a problem,'' Venus said. ``I don't know why the
 governor wants to beat this like a cheap drum. . . . If you take a
 look at the situation, if I were a teacher, I would want to carry a
 gun in case one of those nitwit students carries a gun to school.''
     He said permit holders are law-abiding citizens and not the
 problem.
     Also, under Utah law, people younger than 18 cannot buy or
 legally possess firearms.
     Leavitt agrees legislation is not the only solution to avoiding
 youth violence, which he said is also ``driven by a culture that
 glorifies in many cases that kind of [violent] activity.
     ``It's a combination of things,'' Leavitt said. ``No law will
 ultimately prevent that. But we ought to have the laws because if it
 can prevent one [tragedy], it's worth it.''



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- --

Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was
 landed in my country, I never would lay down my arms -- never -- never -
 - NEVER! You cannot conquer America." -- William Pitt, Earl of Chatham
 Speech in the House of Lords November 18, 1777

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:34:38 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Charles Hardy)
Subject: Fear Mongering on CCW permits

From today's tribune.  A letter with hard facts refuting the claim
that Texas CCW permit holders are twice as likely to be arrested
as a non CCW holder really needs to be written.  If anyone has
good sources but doesn't want to write a letter for some reason,
pass them along and I'll write one.

                                [Image]
 [Image] [Image]         Friday, March 27, 1998        [Image] [Image]

                Gun Law Lets Felons Slip Through Cracks

 BY TOM ZOELLNER
 THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE


     A Utah resident could be convicted of a violent crime and still
 legally carry a concealed weapon for years.
     And now, convicted criminals may slip through the cracks with
 their guns for even longer under the terms of a bill signed into law
 Tuesday by Gov. Mike Leavitt.
     The state Department of Public Safety (DPS) does not regularly
 cross-reference its computer database of 17,000 gun-permit holders
 with the names of citizens who recently have been arrested or
 convicted of felony crimes.
     Typically, the only time criminal history is checked is during
 the application process and at the time of renewal, which used to be
 once every two years. Now, under the law Leavitt signed, a gun owner
 will have to undergo this digital frisking every five years.
     Under state law, a weapons permit can be taken away if the holder
 is convicted of drunken driving, drug possession or any felony crime.

     There has been some political resistance within the DPS to
 writing a computer program that automatically would ``flag'' the
 names of permit holders who get charged with crimes.
     Even gun advocates want DPS to have the software.
     ``The technology exists. The reason they don't do it is
 dollars,'' said Elwood Powell, chairman of the Utah Sport Shooting
 Council, which is a powerful lobbying force on Capitol Hill. ``If
 somebody has been convicted of a felony, they ought to have their
 rights jerked.''
     Continuous computer monitoring would eliminate the need for
 honest gun owners to come in for a license renewal, which now costs
 $5, said Duane Fuller of the Utah State Rifle and Pistol Association.

     DPS Commissioner Craig Dearden said he doesn't have the estimated
 $20,000 it would take to interface his database of all
 concealed-weapons carriers with all of Utah's state and justice
 courts.
     ``It's a pretty big network that would have to be set up, and
 it's fairly costly,'' he said.
     Nobody can say for sure just how many convicted criminals are
 today walking around with legally concealed weapons. But one thing is
 for sure: The state rarely revokes permits once they have been
 granted.
     Just 53 permit holders out of more than 17,000 have had their
 privileges taken away since 1995 -- the year that state gun laws were
 liberalized to allow most adult citizens with a clean record to pack
 hidden weaponry.
     Applicants must submit a photograph of themselves, allow
 themselves to be fingerprinted, take an eight-hour instruction class,
 provide two letters of recommendation and be 21 or older to get the
 permit. Utah residency is not required.
     DPS now has only limited means of knowing about the bad behavior
 of a gun carrier after they get the license.
     Local police agencies can take the initiative and report the
 names of perpetrators who have concealed-weapons permits. But this is
 rarely done, unless the crime is specifically related to a gun.
     ``We don't check for a concealed-weapons permit unless they
 happen to be carrying a concealed weapon at the time of arrest,''
 said Steve Chapman, assistant chief of the Salt Lake City Police
 Department. ``We haven't flagged it here.''
     Detectives typically don't ask criminal suspects if they have a
 permit, said Sgt. Dana Orgill of the Salt Lake City police
 domestic-violence unit. It is just not a question that comes up in
 the average interview, he said.
     A complaint from a citizen is one of the only other methods the
 DPS would have of knowing if a gun carrier has been misbehaving
 before the mandatory license renewal.
     At the time of each license renewal, the person's name is checked
 through the Utah Computer Criminal History and the National Crime
 Information Center for any arrests or convictions, said Todd
 Peterson, the supervisor of the firearms section of the state Bureau
 of Criminal Investigation.
     He conceded the monitoring system is imperfect.
     ``There could be some people arrested who the police don't know
 is a concealed-weapons permit holder and we don't find out about it
 until renewal,'' he said.
     The potential to fly under the radar could be even greater if the
 person was convicted of a crime in another state, he said.
     It is rare in Utah for a citizen to lose his license for a
 firearms-related offense.
     It happened only four times in 1997. In each case, the
 gun-carrier brandished a weapon during a traffic dispute, said
 Peterson. In 1996, one man lost his license for pointing his gun at
 somebody during an aggravated assault, and another man's license was
 revoked after he attemtped to commit suicide with his concealed
 weapon.
     There have been just six revocations in the current year -- all
 for non-gun-related problems, such as driving under the influence of
 alcohol.
     This is especially alarming because concealed-weapons permit
 holders in Texas have been shown to have arrest rates as high as
 twice that of the general population, according to health-research
 specialist Sue Glick of the anti-gun Violence Policy Center in
 Washington.
     ``There's no way to tell when you license an individual whether
 they'll commit a crime or not,'' she said.
     A recent VPC study of Florida's concealed-weapons laws concluded
 that ``hundreds of license holders had committed a wide variety of
 crimes -- including assault with intent to murder, kidnap-
     ping/attempted kidnapping, and shooting with intent to wound --
 either before obtaining the Florida concealed-weapons license or
 after licensure.''
     Like Utah, 30 other states have a ``shall-issue'' policy toward
 concealed-weapons permit seekers, who do not need to prove any
 compelling need to carry a hidden firearm. A clean criminal record is
 all most adults need to get the permit.
     But unlike Utah, many of the other ``shall-issue'' states have
 instituted monthly cross-checks between lists of gun-carriers and
 convicted criminals, Glick said.



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Charles C. Hardy        | If my employer has an opinion on
<[e-mail]>            | these things I'm fairly certain
801.588.7200 (work)        | I'm not the one he'd have express it.

"If I were an American, as I am an Englishman, while a foreign troop was
 landed in my country, I never would lay down my arms -- never -- never -
 - NEVER! You cannot conquer America." -- William Pitt, Earl of Chatham
 Speech in the House of Lords November 18, 1777

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:53:26 -0500
From: "Chad Leigh, Pengar Enterprises Inc and Shire.Net" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Mikey doesn't like guns  (Was: FW: [Fwd: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ])

Maybe we need MIKEY to read this.


We need to draw much attention to this article and point out Mikey's
flaws!!!


Make him eat crow!


Chad




>Envelope-to: [e-mail]

>From: Dan Gosselin <<[e-mail]>

>To: "'[e-mail]'" <<[e-mail]>

>Subject: FW: [Fwd: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ]

>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:06:17 -0500

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>

>

>

>Subject: The Real Lesson of the School Shootings - WSJ

>Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:05:57 -0500

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<bold><bigger>>

>

> The Real Lesson

> Of the School Shootings

</bigger></bold>>

>

<bold>>By JOHN R. LOTT JR.

</bold>>

>=20

>

>This week's horrific shootings in Arkansas have, predictably, spurred
calls for more gun control. But it's worth noting that the shootings
occurred in one of the few places in Arkansas where possessing a gun is
illegal. Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi--the three states that have
had deadly shootings in public schools over the past half-year--all
allow law-abiding adults to carry concealed handgun for
self-protection, except in public schools. Indeed, federal law
generally prohibits guns within 1,000 feet of a school.

>

>=20

>

>Gun prohibitionists concede that banning guns around schools has not
quite worked as intended--but their response has been to call for more
regulations of guns. Yet what might appear to be the most obvious
policy may actually cost lives. When gun-control laws are passed, it is
law-abiding citizens, not would-be criminals, who adhere to them.
Obviously the police cannot be everywhere, so these laws risk creating
situations in which the good guys cannot defend themselves from the bad
ones.

>

>=20

>

>Consider a fact hardly mentioned during the massive news coverage of
the October 1997 shooting spree at a high school in Pearl, Miss.: An
assistant principal retrieved a gun from his car and physically
immobilized the gunman for a full 41/2 minutes while waiting for the
police to arrive. The gunman had already fatally shot two students
(after earlier stabbing his mother to death). Who knows how many lives
the assistant principal saved by his prompt response?

>

>=20

>

>Allowing teachers and other law-abiding adults to carry concealed
handguns in schools would not only make it easier to stop shootings in
progress. It could also help deter shootings from ever occurring.
Twenty-five or more years ago in Israel, terrorists would pull out
machine guns in malls and fire away at civilians. However, with
expanded concealed-handgun use by Israeli citizens, terrorists soon
found the ordinary people around them pulling pistols on them. Suffice
it to say, terrorists in Israel no longer engage in such public
shootings--they have switched to bombing, a tactic that doesn't allow
the intended victims to respond.

>

>=20

>

>The one recent shooting of schoolchildren in Israel further
illustrates these points. On March 13, 1997, seven seventh- and
eighth-grade Israeli girls were shot to death by a Jordanian soldier
while they visited Jordan's so-called Island of Peace. The Los Angeles
Times reports that the Israelis had "complied with Jordanian requests
to leave their weapons behind when they entered the border enclave.
Otherwise, they might have been able to stop the shooting, several
parents said."

>

>=20

>

>Together with my colleague William Landes, I have studied
multiple-victim public shootings in the U.S. from 1977 to 1995. These
were incidents in which at least two people were killed or injured in a
public place; to focus on the type of shooting seen in Arkansas we
excluded shootings that were the byproduct of another crime, such as
robbery. The U.S. averaged 21 such shootings per year, with an average
of 1.8 people killed and 2.7 wounded in each one.

>

>=20

>

>We examined a whole range of different gun laws as well as other
methods of deterrence, such as the death penalty. However, only one
policy succeeded in reducing deaths and injuries from these
shootings--allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns.

>

>=20

>

>The effect of "shall-issue" concealed handgun laws--which give adults
the right to carry concealed handguns if they do not have a criminal
record or a history of significant mental illness--has been dramatic.
Thirty-one states now have such laws. When states passed them during
the 19 years we studied, the number of multiple-victim public shootings
declined by 84%. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by
90%, injuries by 82%. Higher arrest rates and increased use of the
death penalty slightly reduced the incidence of these events, but the
effects were never statistically significant.

>

>=20

>

>With over 19,600 people murdered in 1996, those killed in multiple
victim public shootings account for fewer than 0.2% of the total. Yet
these are surely the murders that attract national as well as
international attention, often for days after the attack. Victims
recount their feelings of utter helplessness as a gunman methodically
shoots his cowering prey.

>

>=20

>

>Unfortunately, much of the public policy debate is driven by lopsided
coverage of gun use. Tragic events like those in Arkansas receive
massive news coverage, as they should, but discussions of the 2.5
million times each year that people use guns defensively--including
cases in which public shootings are stopped before they happen--are
ignored. Dramatic stories of mothers who prevented their children from
being kidnapped by carjackers seldom even make the local news.

>

>=20

>

>Attempts to outlaw guns from schools, no matter how well meaning, have
backfired. Instead of making schools safe for children, we have made
them safe for those intent on harming our children. Current school
policies fire teachers who even accidentally bring otherwise legal
concealed handguns to school. We might consider reversing this policy
and begin rewarding teachers who take on the responsibility to help
protect children.

>

>=20

>

<italic>>Mr. Lott, a fellow at the University of Chicago School of Law,
is the author of "More Guns, Less Crime," forthcoming in early May from
the University of Chicago Press.

</italic>>

>=20
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- ---------------------------------------------------------------

Chad Leigh              Pengar Enterprises, Inc and Shire.Net

[e-mail]         [e-mail]        [e-mail]

=46ull service WWW services from just space to complete sites.

Low cost virtual servers.    DB integration. Tango.

Email forwarding -- Permanent Email Addresses.  POP3 and IMAP

Email Accounts.  mailto:[e-mail] for any of these.

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------------------------------

End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #38
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