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- From: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com (utah-firearms-digest)
- To: utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com
- Subject: utah-firearms-digest V2 #29
- Reply-To: utah-firearms-digest
- Sender: owner-utah-firearms-digest@lists.xmission.com
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-
-
- utah-firearms-digest Friday, February 27 1998 Volume 02 : Number 029
-
-
-
-
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:03:14 -0700
- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
- Subject: Sent to Sec.
-
- Received auto notification that the status of SB23, Negligent storage of
- a firearm, had changed. Change history is below.
-
- Anyone know what the last item, today's update means, and is it cause
- for concern?
-
- - -- S.B. 23 Negligent Storage of Loaded Firearm (Steiner, R.)
-
- 01/06/98 Number LRGC
- 01/08/98 Bill Distributed LRGC
- 01/19/98 Senate/read 1st (Introduced) SPRES
- 02/02/98 Senate/to Standing Committee SSTTPS
- 02/26/98 Senate/comm rpt sent to Senate Secretary SSEC
-
- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
- <chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
- 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
-
- "The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule
- of construction be conceived to give the Congress the power to disarm
- the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some
- general pretense by a state legislature. But if in blind pursuit of
- inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be
- appealed to as a restraint on both." -- William Rawle, 1825; considered
- academically to be an expert commentator on the Constitution. He was
- offered the position of the first Attorney General of the United States,
- by President Washington.
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:41:16 -0700
- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
- Subject: [Vin_Suprynowicz@lvrj.com: Feb. 26 column - Anthrax]
-
- The latest from Vin...
-
- - ----BEGIN FORWARDED MESSGE----
-
-
- FROM MOUNTAIN MEDIA
- FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED FEB. 26, 1998
- THE LIBERTARIAN, By Vin Suprynowicz
- The Great Las Vegas Anthrax Plot
-
- The news flashed around the world on Thursday, Feb. 19. I know, because
- I started getting phone calls from New England, and e-mail from Asia ...
- asking me if I'd broken out my gas masks.
-
- The news was accepted at face value in most places, too ... because it
- was precisely what many folks had been led to expect.
-
- A pair of depraved white men -- one a former Mormon bishop and the other
- (according to a hastily-drawn-up federal criminal complaint) a
- "self-admitted member of the Aryan Nations (who) claims to have the rank of
- Lieutenant-Colonel," had been busted by FBI agents and thrown in a Las
- Vegas hoosegow, while the Mercedes-Benz they had been driving was carefully
- shrink-wrapped in plastic and hauled away to a U.S. Army facility for
- testing.
-
- Why?
-
- "These individuals posed a potential chemical and biological threat to
- our community," Bobby Siller, head of the FBI's Las Vegas office, told
- members of the working press at a Thursday morning press conference. A
- "citizen informant (hereafter 'the source')" had telephoned the Las Vegas
- offices of the FBI on Feb. 18 -- again according to the criminal complaint
- - -- to report that suspects Larry Wayne Harris, 46 (a licensed
- microbiologist from Lancaster, Ohio), and William Job Leavitt, Jr., 47 (a
- fire extinguisher manufacturer, owner of a pair of microbiological
- laboratories, and former Mormon bishop from Logandale, Nevada) were in
- possession of what Leavitt had reportedly described as "military grade"
- anthrax in flight bags in the trunk of their Mercedes-Benz convertible.
- Another source, spotted with Leavitt and Harris at the Gold Coast Hotel,
- reportedly told the FBI that Harris held out a vial and stated there was
- enough there to "wipe out the city."
-
- FBI Special Agent John W. Hawken further alleged in his Feb. 19 criminal
- complaint -- this time citing no specific source -- that Harris, the Ohio
- microbiologist, had "in the summer of 1997 ... told a group of plans to
- place a 'globe' of bubonic plague toxins in a New York subway station,
- where it could be broken by a passing subway train, causing hundreds of
- thousands of deaths. Harris stated that the Iraqis would be blamed for that
- event."
-
-
- 'Go write your own Civil Defense manual'
-
- But something about this one smelled wrong from the start. Defendant
- Harris had appeared as a guest on Las Vegas-based radio talk shows within
- the previous week, spouting his obsessive concern that the Iraqis were
- preparing to launch precisely the kind of biological attack the FBI was
- talking about, and that the United States was ill-prepared to defend
- against any such attack.
-
- Patriot sources on the Internet (ever paranoid) immediately theorized
- that the FBI had busted well-known gadfly Harris precisely to shift the
- blame for any such attack -- considered all the more likely if Bill Clinton
- proceeded with plans to renew bombing of Saddam Hussein -- onto the FBI's
- favorite target, the gun-owning domestic patriot militias.
-
- Only a few minutes work were required for Las Vegas Review-Journal
- columnist John L. Smith to download from the Internet and hand me the
- opening section of Larry Wayne Harris' book, "Bacteriological Warfare: A
- Major Threat to North America, What You and Your Family Can Do Defensively,
- Before and After." (http://norden1.com/~hawkins/CIVIL.HTM)
-
- In it, Harris describes taking courses in advanced microbiology at Ohio
- State University in 1991, and meeting there fellow student Miriam Arif,
- daughter of a former Iraqi president. After the two became friends, Arif
- reportedly told Harris in 1993 of the plans of Libya, Iran, Iraq, Syria And
- North Korea to respond to any future American interventions in their
- regions by loosing germ warfare weapons in this country.
-
- It is agents of those nations that plan to release plague and anthrax
- cultures in the subway systems of large American cities, according to
- Harris' writings.
-
- Harris reports calling the FBI, and the CDC in both Atlanta and Fort
- Collins. "I told them what Miriam had told me, and they responded that they
- thought I had been watching too many science fiction movies."
-
- After repeatedly promising to send Harris a copy of the government
- contingency plan to deal with such an attack, Harris writes that he was
- finally told by exasperated spokesmen at the CDC that all such biological
- civil defense planning had been scrapped in 1972. "They said if I were a
- microbiologist and so concerned, why don't I go and write my own Civil
- Defense manual and leave the CDC alone?"
-
- Would a man planning to kill thousands via a germ warfare attack, write
- books and appear on the radio, drawing attention to himself by warning
- Americans of how unprepared we are to deal with such an attack? What would
- Harris' motive be, anyway? Might it not be possible that the FBI's sources
- had misunderstood Harris' intense warnings about Miriam Arif, as threats he
- himself was making?
-
-
- Time machines and UFOs
-
- The possibility grew even stronger when it turned out FBI agent Hawken
- had admitted in his initial criminal complaint that the FBI's main source
- "has two felony convictions for conspiracy to commit extortion in 1981 and
- 1982."
-
- I have been unable to independently confirm that Ronald G. Rockwell --
- since identified by numerous sources as the FBI's main informant -- was
- indeed twice convicted on extortion counts. But Leavitt's attorney, Kirby
- Wells, paints quite a picture of Rockwell, reporting that at a Feb. 14
- meeting Rockwell offered to sell Leavitt more than just the machine Leavitt
- wanted to conduct anthrax research.
-
- "He offered as part of the deal to turn over work on other projects,
- including a time machine project and a UFO project," attorney Wells told
- Review-Journal reporter Steve Friess on Feb. 23. "I questioned Bill about
- whether it made sense to be negotiating with someone who professed to have
- these kinds of projects."
-
- Eventually, Leavitt did reject Rockwell's demand that he buy a so-called
- Rife Regenerator for $2 million, including a non-refundable $100,000
- deposit. (The discredited Rife machine, which is supposed to cure illness
- through radio waves, usually sells for $20,000.) Within days, the
- disappointed Rockwell apparently telephoned the FBI to turn Leavitt and
- Harris in.
-
- Paul Pantone, chief executive officer for research at Global
- Environmental Energy Technology LLC, spent 15 minutes chatting with
- Rockwell at a conference in Las Vegas last April, and pronounces the fellow
- "a total fruitcake."
-
- "He said he can build flying saucers any size you want," said Pantone,
- whose Utah company specializes in far more mundane mileage-boosting
- automotive fuel processors. "He said he has a plane the size of a 747 that
- extracts energy out of the air as it moves and flies for hours on one
- gallon of gasoline. He has it hidden somewhere in Nevada. ... For the FBI
- to even listen to this man, I'm appalled," Pantone told reporter Friess.
-
-
- False alarm
-
- Businessman Leavitt was released from jail on Saturday, Feb. 21.
- Scientists at the Army's Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases
- in Fort Detrick, Md. (where the Army stores precisely the kinds of toxic
- agents which President Clinton brands other nations "terrorist" for
- developing) had worked through the night analyzing the contents of the
- Harris-Leavitt vials, and found them to contain exactly what the defendants
- said they contained -- veterinary anthrax vaccine, incapable of forming
- spores to spread the disease to either humans or animals.
-
- Informant Rockwell "wanted money up front, sight unseen, and when he
- didn't get it ... he went to the FBI and made some outlandish statements,"
- says Leavitt's other attorney, Lamond Mills. "That's their witness. And on
- that, we've had worldwide news."
-
- After a final weekend FBI search of both defendants' homes to see if they
- could find anything else to hold them on, all criminal charges against both
- defendants were dropped on Monday, Feb. 23.
-
- Mind you, Ohioan Harris would appear to be several stops down the local
- line toward Bonkersville, himself. He signed a consent decree in 1995,
- under which he is still on probation for fraudulently obtaining bubonic
- plague toxins for his research. His book contains such unattributed
- nuggets as his rambling report that "The HIV (AIDS) virus ... was designed
- to kill only Negro's (sic). The HIV virus was ... inoculated into Negro's
- for their genocidal removal from Africa. The HIV virus was designed to use
- an intermediate bacterial carrier, that was present in the Negro's body but
- not present in Caucasians. This strategy has been extremely effective and
- by some estimates the Negro population of Africa will soon be reduced to
- below 5 million."
-
- Yeah, right.
-
- So: should police agents have had some serious questions for Messrs.
- Harris and Leavitt? Of course. Should they have acquired warrants to seize
- and test the material in question? OK; fine.
-
- But the broadest public response to this whole tempest in a teapot seems
- to be that the FBI was justified in acting swiftly -- even if the tip
- turned out to be wrong -- given the virulence of the agents the two men
- supposedly possessed.
-
- I feel obliged to offer a somewhat different perspective.
-
-
- Infiltrate the churches, shoot the dogs
-
- The FBI, as currently composed, is an illegal and unconstitutional
- agency. The Constitution grants the Congress no power to swear in any
- federal political police force, the familiar German word for which is
- "Gestapo."
-
- In recent years -- leaving aside its treatment of the presumably innocent
- security guard Richard Jewel while the real perpetrators of Atlanta's
- Olympic Park bombing walked away at their leisure -- this proud and
- courageous agency stood in charge of the final, deadly, tank, machine gun,
- and poison gas assault on the parishioners of the Mount Carmel Seventh Day
- Adventist Church in Waco, Texas, which directly caused the deaths by fire
- and poison gas of dozens of innocent women and children. (See it for
- yourself, as filmed by federal government cameras: Order the video "Waco:
- The Terms of Engagement," now nominated for an Academy Award as best
- documentary, at $25 by dialing 1-800-771-2147, ext. 19.)
-
- Only a few months before, FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi, acting under FBI
- orders, shot and killed the unarmed Vicky Weaver in the kitchen doorway of
- her Idaho home as she held her baby in her arms. (The federal government is
- still involved in procedural shenanigans to shield Horiuchi from facing the
- criminal charges he so richly deserves for that little feat of
- marksmanship.)
-
- The Weaver standoff started when federal agents approached and entrapped
- Vicky Weaver's husband, Randy, in order to convince him to infiltrate and
- snitch on parishioners of a nearby church. The Waco standoff started when
- ATF agents turned down the Rev. David Koresh's invitation to come out and
- inspect his parishioners' fully legal firearms "any time," preferring to
- stage a big military-style raid for the TV cameras, shortly before their
- next set of funding hearings in Washington.
-
- In both cases, the federals targeted churches. In both cases, the first
- shots were fired by federal agents, killing their victims' dogs.
-
- But under our American system, it is (start ital)not(end ital) acceptable
- to trash the First, Second, and Fourth Amendment rights of the politically
- unpopular few, in order to "protect the many" even from real threats ...
- let alone trumped-up ones. If it were, the FBI would be justified in
- sending SWAT teams into the homes of the 100 patriot militiamen and foreign
- nationals which it judges most likely to cause trouble, with orders to
- simply shoot them all through the head.
-
- Nevada has a State Police force. Las Vegas has its own, sizeable,
- Metropolitan Police. Those agencies had sole jurisdiction in this case. All
- law enforcement, under our constitutional system of government, is left to
- local authority. (start ital)No(end ital) federal police force is
- authorized.
-
- The safest thing for the liberties of the citizens of this republic would
- be to disband the deadly, incompetent FBI, immediately. Failing that, this
- homicidal gang should at least be restricted to what the "I" in its name
- stands for, "Investigation" (keeping up to date with what's readily
- available on talk radio and the Internet, for starters -- and perhaps
- keeping running tabs on the credibility of such local snitches as Ronald G.
- Rockwell, while they're at it.) When they feel an arrest is justified, they
- should do just what everyone else does: Call the police.
-
- As goofy as Larry Wayne Harris may be, he has a point. If we keep
- meddling in the affairs of nations that can't afford to build aircraft
- carriers and nuclear bombers, they will eventually strike back in any way
- they can ... quite possibly with such cheap, easy-to-employ weapons as germ
- warfare and poison gas.
-
- (Calling them "terrorists" proves nothing. Generals Howe and Cornwallis
- doubtless would have called the brigand Washington -- unwilling to line up
- all his men across an open field and fight it out in a sporting manner -- a
- "terrorist.")
-
- But instead of heeding such a sensible warning, the federals just arrest
- the messenger.
-
- Anyone interested in disarming America's criminal element would do well
- to start with the incompetent and counterproductive ATF and the FBI ...
- auctioning off their Tommy guns and MP-5s to law-abiding private citizens,
- who would then be in a much better position to drop by their offices
- occasionally, "just to check."
-
- Then, if we're finally tired of making enemies overseas, comes the CIA.
-
- Vin Suprynowicz is the assistant editorial page editor of the Las Vegas
- Review-Journal. Readers may contact him via e-mail at vin@lvrj.com. The web
- site for the Suprynowicz column is at http://www.nguworld.com/vindex/. The
- column is syndicated in the United States and Canada via Mountain Media
- Syndications, P.O. Box 4422, Las Vegas Nev. 89127.
-
- ***
-
-
- Vin Suprynowicz, vin@lvrj.com
-
- "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
- greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
- We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
- feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
- that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams
-
-
-
-
- - ----END FORWARDED MESSAGE----
-
- - --
-
- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
- <chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
- 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
-
- God created all men equal. Sam Colt made sure they remain that way.
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 21:17:00 -0700
- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
- Subject: USSC Legislative ALERTS!!
-
- On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 S. Thompson replied to Charles Hardy:
-
- >However, the Board is not going to know what you think unless you tell THEM.
-
- Do any USSC Board members other than Dr. Sarah Thompson read the uf
- list? It would seem a good idea for them to do so. Or do most of them
- depend on people making telephone calls specially to them? That would
- seem rather inefficient for both the caller and the recipient of the
- call. It certainly appears 4 of them don't want anyone to know what
- they think unless they make special trips to Kaysville to attend Board
- meetings every Monday. How can the other 3 be bound by that vote? It
- would appear a violation of free speech to gag Board members from stating
- their positions and votes on USSC actions, and while a contract can
- override constitutionally-secured rights, if the USSC imposes such a
- contract on its Board members this does not make support of the USSC
- attractive. Perhaps time to replace the USSC as the voice of gun rights
- supporters in Utah?
-
-
-
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:22:32 -0700
- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
- Subject: Re: USSC Legislative ALERTS!!
-
- Sarah posted contact info a while back. I thought I had saved it, but
- apparantly did not. Sarah, would you be so good as to post that
- again?
-
- I should make everyone aware that in addition to Sarah, only one board
- member has contacted me regarding the 10 questions I posted here and
- which Sarah presented to the USSC board. That response I considered
- very positive. I only wish the other board members had responed as
- well, let alone at all.
-
- Apparantly the board voted and decided that individual members would
- only respond to the questions if they wanted to do so strictly as an
- individual. The board itself would respond by passing along some
- formal positions adopted by the previous board. I've not seen that
- info yet but will pass it along if it ever shows up.
-
- It seems the majority of board members do not want the USSC membership
- or the gun owning non-members of this State to know their true
- position on gun rights or even how they voted on any given issue. So
- far there are only 2 of the 7 members in whom I can place any
- confidence. I'm hoping based on what I've heard, there is a 3rd who
- is ok, as well. Three out of 7 may be a start, but at this point I'm
- not prepared to offer my financial support. I do plan to attend
- meetings whenever possible which is going to be few and far between
- since I'd have to leave work at a reasonable hour and fight commuter
- traffic between SLC and Kaysville to get there. Any meeting I attend
- I will do my very best to record votes, etc and pass along. I ask
- others to do likewise.
-
- Assuming it looks like there is hope, I will consider joining just
- soon enough to vote in the next election and try to put the true
- rights, no-compromise, respond to questions, not afraid to let their
- views be known advocates in a majority. For heaven sakes, even the
- State legislators record votes and publish them on the internet for at
- least committee business. Of what are those 4 members of the USSC
- board afraid?
-
- Maybe if enough members keep track and let board members know which
- votes will cause loss of support for them and/or lack of renewal and
- if enough non-members let the board know exactly why we aren't members
- yet, they will get the message and change their ways or will get off
- the board and let someone who really values and understands rights do
- the job they seem unwilling to do. I fear too many are far too cozy
- with the NRA.
-
- And yes, I agree completely that it would behoov board members to at
- least read this list, if not become active participants in it. If
- they want to claim to represent gun owners' interests in this State,
- they should make at least as much effort to search out those interests
- as gun owners make to make them known.
-
- Accolades to Sarah for doing just that and much more.
-
-
-
- On Thu, 26 Feb 98 21:17:00 -0700, scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON) posted:
-
- >
- >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 S. Thompson replied to Charles Hardy:
- >
- >>However, the Board is not going to know what you think unless you tell THEM.
- >
- >Do any USSC Board members other than Dr. Sarah Thompson read the uf
- >list? It would seem a good idea for them to do so. Or do most of them
- >depend on people making telephone calls specially to them? That would
- >seem rather inefficient for both the caller and the recipient of the
- >call. It certainly appears 4 of them don't want anyone to know what
- >they think unless they make special trips to Kaysville to attend Board
- >meetings every Monday. How can the other 3 be bound by that vote? It
- >would appear a violation of free speech to gag Board members from stating
- >their positions and votes on USSC actions, and while a contract can
- >override constitutionally-secured rights, if the USSC imposes such a
- >contract on its Board members this does not make support of the USSC
- >attractive. Perhaps time to replace the USSC as the voice of gun rights
- >supporters in Utah?
- >
- >
- >
- >
- >-
- >
- >
-
-
- - --
-
- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
- <chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
- 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
-
- "Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except for a
- few public officials." -- George Mason, Framer of the Declaration of
- Rights, Virginia, 1776, which became the basis for the U.S. Bill of
- Rights; 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426.
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:03:38 -0700
- From: "S. Thompson" <righter@therighter.com>
- Subject: Re: USSC
-
- At 09:17 PM 2/26/98 -0700, you wrote:
- >
- >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 S. Thompson replied to Charles Hardy:
- >
- >>However, the Board is not going to know what you think unless you tell THEM.
- >
- >Do any USSC Board members other than Dr. Sarah Thompson read the uf
- >list? It would seem a good idea for them to do so. Or do most of them
- >depend on people making telephone calls specially to them? That would
- >seem rather inefficient for both the caller and the recipient of the
- >call. It certainly appears 4 of them don't want anyone to know what
- >they think unless they make special trips to Kaysville to attend Board
- >meetings every Monday. How can the other 3 be bound by that vote? It
- >would appear a violation of free speech to gag Board members from stating
- >their positions and votes on USSC actions, and while a contract can
- >override constitutionally-secured rights, if the USSC imposes such a
- >contract on its Board members this does not make support of the USSC
- >attractive. Perhaps time to replace the USSC as the voice of gun rights
- >supporters in Utah?
-
- I'm the only Board (or Advisory Board) member of USSC who's subscribed to
- utah-firearms. Most, but not all, of the other members have e-mail
- capabilities. However, my impression is that not too many read e-mail with
- any regularity or are very comfortable with computers. I've posted the
- e-mail addresses of all who were willing to make them available, so you can
- e-mail at least those members. But I suspect most of them do prefer
- telephone contact.
-
- As I understand the so-called "gag order", members may not _publish_
- positions or votes. (I don't have the exact language.) I don't think
- there's any prohibition against stating one's position or vote. But there
- are huge gray areas such as private e-mail and public statements.
-
- I can understand that the Board would not want internal discord aired
- publicly - at least during the legislative session, when it's necessary for
- the most part to present a united front. (I'm not saying I agree or
- disagree, but I do understand this point of view.) However, I don't see
- why that should preclude recording votes and publishing them immediately
- after the session.
-
- However, with the possible exception of during the legislative session, it
- makes no sense to me to suppress one Constitutional right while fighting
- for another. The first and second amendments depend upon each other - as
- do all our rights.
-
- The problem is that the only people complaining are non-members. The only
- member who's let me know he has complaints is Will. No Board member has
- any obligation or mandate to represent anyone other than members, and I'm
- not sure how many will be receptive to comments from non-members.
-
- Certainly there's room for more than one gun rights organization in Utah.
- There's already the Utah Gun Rights Association, the Utah Rifle and Pistol
- Assoc. and a few more whose names don't immediately come to mind. If
- anyone wants to start a chapter of NRA, GOA, Brassroots, SAFE, CCRKBA or
- even another independent organization, they're free to do so. And if some
- other organization can do a better job than USSC, more power to them! I
- might even join. <g>
-
- But since I'm the only Board member here, complaining about USSC on u-f
- isn't going to do any good. If you want to tell anyone but me what you
- think, you're going to have to do it their way, since I know of no way to
- force anyone to subscribe to or read u-f. (Not that I'd force anyone anyway!)
-
- Contact info follows:
-
- The following Board members have volunteered to have their contact info
- made public. Please feel free to contact them, but please do not abuse
- their open-door policy.
-
- Doug Henrichsen, 771-3196(h), cathounds@aol.com
- Elwood Powell, 426-8274 or 583-2882 (h), 364-0412 (w),
- 73214.3115@compuserve.com
- Shirley Spain, 963-0784, agr@aros.net
- Bob Templeton, 544-9125 (h), 546-2275 (w)
- Sarah Thompson, 566-1067, righter@therighter.com
- Joe Venus, 571-2223
-
- Because of the confusion over whether comments via e-mail are permitted,
- I'd suggest phone calls.
-
- There are a lot of gun owners in Utah, and they have widely divergent
- views. Some are "no compromise" people. Some only care about concealed
- carry. Some only care about hunting, or target shooting, or collecting.
- Some are confrontational, and some prefer not to "make waves". I don't
- honestly think one organization can be everything to everyone. OTOH, if we
- split into too many factions, we're likely to end up with no voice at all.
- I don't have any perfect, or even very good, ideas on how to solve this
- problem. But I am open to suggestions.
-
- Sarah
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 06:45:00 -0700
- From: scott.bergeson@ucs.org (SCOTT BERGESON)
- Subject: USSC Contact Info
-
- On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:22:32 Charles Hardy asked:
-
- >Sarah posted contact info a while back. I thought I had saved it, but
- >apparantly did not. Sarah, would you be so good as to post that again?
-
- I'm not Sarah, but here it is:
-
- The following Board members have volunteered to have their contact info
- made public. Please feel free to contact them, but please do not abuse
- their open-door policy. All of us are VERY busy right now.
-
- Doug Henrichsen, 771-3196(h), cathounds@aol.com
- Elwood Powell, 426-8274 or 583-2882 (h), 364-0412 (w),
- 73214.3115@compuserve.com
- Shirley Spain, 963-0784, agr@aros.net
- Bob Templeton, 544-9125 (h), 546-2275 (w)
- Sarah Thompson, 566-1067, righter@therighter.com (I prefer e-mail to phone
- calls when possible).
- Joe Venus, 571-2223
-
-
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:07:27 -0700
- From: DAVID SAGERS <dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us>
- Subject: ACTION ALERT: "Anti " Article in LHJ -Forwarded
-
- Received: (qmail 19538 invoked by uid 516); 27 Feb 1998 03:17:58 -0000
- Delivered-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com
- Received: (qmail 19337 invoked from network); 27 Feb 1998 03:17:42 -0000
- Received: from ocelot.avana.net (HELO Email.Avana.Net) (205.245.133.6)
- by majordomo.pobox.com with SMTP; 27 Feb 1998 03:17:42 -0000
- Received: from tiger.avana.net (tiger.avana.net [205.245.133.2])
- by Email.Avana.Net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28908;
- Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:27:56 -0500
- Received: from nancys (atl867.avana.net [207.42.62.157])
- by tiger.avana.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA00415;
- Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:18:50 -0500 (EST)
- Message-ID: <34F6303E.2787@2die4.com>
- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:17:18 -0500
- From: Nancy <nocompromise@2die4.com>
- Organization: Real Pro Second Amendment Activist Never Give Up.
- X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U)
- MIME-Version: 1.0
- To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com, texas-gun-owners@zilker.net,
- GA-RKBA@athens.net, ma-firearms@world.std.com, pa-rkba@pobox.com
- Subject: ACTION ALERT: "Anti " Article in LHJ
- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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- Precedence: bulk
- Reply-To: rkba-co@majordomo.pobox.com
-
- Posted to rkba-co by Nancy <nocompromise@2die4.com>
- - -----------------------
- Subject:
- ACTION ALERT: "Anti" Article in Ladies Home Journal
- Date:
- Thu, 26 Feb 98 22:03:05 EST5EDT
- From:
- ladybug@fiber-net.com (Brenda Bernard )
- To:
- undisclosed-recipients:;
-
-
- Dear Brother / Sister Shooters,
-
- I just received information, from a sister shooter, about an article
- appearing in the current "Ladies Home Journal, p. 28 praising women in
- the
- "war against guns".
-
- The article highlights "Tina Johnstone" whose husband was gunned down by
- a
- criminal. "Tina" is organizing a march on D.C. and wants to make a pile
- of
- several thousands of shoes of victims. I am sure there will be many
- shoes
- thrown in there for the heck of it and the media will have a hay day
- dramatically portraying all the shoes as being worn by victims.
-
- You may want to visit a news stand and see the article for yourself
- before
- responding. It does not seem to be in their website publication.
-
- "Tina Johnstone's" committee phone number is (516) 247-9101.
-
- Ladies Home Journal
- 125 Park Avenue
- New York, N.Y. 10017
- E-mail: LHJ@nyc.mdp.com
- Website: http://www.lhj.com
-
- Toll free: (800) 347-4545
-
-
- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Brenda Bernard (Ladybug)
- P.O. Box 1997
- Crystal River, FL 34423-1997
- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Women AGAINST Gun Control @ www.wagc.com
- GUNS GIVE WOMEN A FIGHTING CHANCE
- All THOSE IN FAVOR OF LOSING YOUR GUN RIGHTS, DO NOTHING
-
-
- For Help with Majordomo Commands, please send a message to:
- Majordomo@majordomo.pobox.com
- with the word Help in the body of the message
-
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:22:17 -0700
- From: Will Thompson <will@phbtsus.com>
- Subject: Re: USSC Legislative ALERTS!!
-
- SCOTT BERGESON wrote:
- >
- > On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 S. Thompson replied to Charles Hardy:
- >
- > >However, the Board is not going to know what you think unless you tell THEM.
- >
- > Do any USSC Board members other than Dr. Sarah Thompson read the uf
- > list? It would seem a good idea for them to do so. Or do most of them
- > depend on people making telephone calls specially to them? That would
- > seem rather inefficient for both the caller and the recipient of the
- > call.
- I have sent the last few of these to Shirley at AGR/UGRA with the
- suggestion that she subscribe and "listen in" to our arguments and
- suggestions. I know she's busy but I've told here that this is
- mostly a fairly low-volume mail list, maybe she'll have enough
- spare time and energy to spend some of it with us.
-
- > It certainly appears 4 of them don't want anyone to know what
- > they think unless they make special trips to Kaysville to attend Board
- > meetings every Monday. How can the other 3 be bound by that vote? It
- > would appear a violation of free speech to gag Board members from stating
- > their positions and votes on USSC actions, and while a contract can
- > override constitutionally-secured rights, if the USSC imposes such a
- > contract on its Board members this does not make support of the USSC
- > attractive. Perhaps time to replace the USSC as the voice of gun rights
- > supporters in Utah?
-
- While I disagree vehemently with their stand, I can sort of understand
- why they are taking it. These guys, especially Bob, are all respected
- "businessmen and pillars of the community" (gag) and if Dan Harrie or
- Vince Horiuchi got hold of something they could use to embarrass them
- or otherwise damage their reputation/business, you can bet they'd use
- it in a heartbeat. These guys are scared, with reason, I believe. I
- don't believe any of them except Sarah (and maybe Joe and Shirley, I
- haven't asked them) have accepted that we've probably already lost the
- war and _will_ lose it if we don't go on the offensive - hard and fast.
- They're still proud of being "life members of NRA" as if that proves
- how _staunchly_ they support the 2nd.
-
- And as always....the target pistol shooters don't really care about
- anything but "sporting use". The hunters just want to be able to
- keep the "ol' thuty-thuty". The CCW'ers want a better/longer permit.
- The collectors want the pre-paid (in rights) convenience of not
- having to pay BCI every time they make a trade...meanwhile the few
- of us who dispise CCW, who want a return to pre-NFA liberty, are
- fighting our own absolutest battles...Yeah, I'm proud to be an
- "extremest", but I also realize that I scare the bejeezus out of
- guys like Bob Templeton. Education is all I can try and offer them,
- realizing that it's going to take even longer for them to (maybe)
- come 'round than it did for me. (What with my pre-disposition to
- fight authority) So I'm going to stand out here, vent my frustrations
- here and keep trying to get the "them" board members to see the
- light...dunno what else to do...it's "them" who're going to have
- to bring the hunters, paper punchers, and other factions with us
- and we ain't gonna get that by slammin em down every time they
- don't get it. Sarah tells me that Jews put honey on the pages
- of the Torah to get their children to read it and associate
- "sweetness" with it...seems like a good idea...if only I can
- keep from flippin my lid every time someone does something
- "stupid"....
-
- vent vent vent
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:28:39 -0700
- From: Will Thompson <will@phbtsus.com>
- Subject: steiner and beattie
-
- After that last bit....now I don't have time to look it
- up....in this morning's Trib was a short article about
- how Steiner and Beattie have teamed up (sort of like
- putting two amoebas in a bowl...) to amend the bill
- describing how one's CCW may be revoked, by adding the
- church ban....(indeciperable, I know)
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:34:11 -0700
- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
- Subject: Re: steiner and beattie
-
- Which section? I can't find it.
-
-
- On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, Will Thompson <will@phbtsus.com> posted:
-
- >After that last bit....now I don't have time to look it
- >up....in this morning's Trib was a short article about
- >how Steiner and Beattie have teamed up (sort of like
- >putting two amoebas in a bowl...) to amend the bill
- >describing how one's CCW may be revoked, by adding the
- >church ban....(indeciperable, I know)
- >
- >-
- >
- >
-
-
- - --
-
- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
- <chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
- 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
-
- "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize
- Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of
- conscience; or to prevent *the people* of the United States who are
- peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms ..." -- Samuel Adams in
- arguing for a Bill of Rights, from the book "Massachusetts," published
- by Pierce & Hale, Boston, 1850, pg. 86-87.
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:43:26 -0700
- From: WILL THOMPSON <will@phbtsus.com>
- Subject: Re: steiner and beattie
-
- The legislative update section, bottom middle of the page in the print
- version
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:27:45 -0700
- From: chardy@ES.COM (Charles Hardy)
- Subject: Gun Ban not dead yet!!
-
- From today's tribune, Legislative update section--"Briefs" article:
-
- HB242 orignally only made some minor technical and clarifications on
- how and when a CCW permit may be revoked and has sailed through thus
- far.
-
- GUN BILL NOT DEAD YET
- Legislation banning legally permitted concealed weapons in certain buildings is not dead yet.
- Democrats plan to amend a bill to prohibit weapons-permit holders
- from carrying their guns to church.
-
- ``It's one of the areas where there is a great deal of consensus. It's one thing that we can do,'' said
- Sen. Robert Steiner, D-Salt Lake City.
- Senate President Lane Beattie was planning to spearhead the move to ban concealed weapons in
- churches, private property and schools, but pulled out last week because of mounting legal questions
- about the move.
- But the West Bountiful Republican said he will vote for Steiner's amendment.
- Steiner said he will amend House Bill 242, which details circumstances when a
- concealed-weapons permit can be revoked.
- -- The Associated Press
-
- - --
-
- Charles C. Hardy | If my employer has an opinion on
- <chardy@es.com> | these things I'm fairly certain
- 801.588.7200 (work) | I'm not the one he'd have express it.
-
- "A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic,
- and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it,
- without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace." --
- James Madison, The Federalist Papers (No. 46).
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:56:08 -0700
- From: DAVID SAGERS <dsagers@ci.west-valley.ut.us>
- Subject: Re: Victims fight back (Tennessee Bill) -Forwarded
-
- Received: (from smap@localhost) by fs1.mainstream.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) id GAA27338; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:58:33 -0500 (EST)
- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:58:33 -0500 (EST)
- Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fs1.mainstream.net via smap (V1.3)
- id sma027287; Fri Feb 27 06:57:21 1998
- Message-Id: <34F6A95A.9923816A@inetnebr.com>
- Errors-To: listproc@mainstream.com
- Reply-To: lball@inetnebr.com
- Originator: noban@mainstream.net
- Sender: noban@Mainstream.net
- Precedence: bulk
- From: larry ball <lball@inetnebr.com>
- To: Multiple recipients of list <noban@mainstream.net>
- Subject: Re: Victims fight back (Tennessee Bill)
- X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
- X-Comment: Anti-Gun-Ban list
-
- Here is the text of the bill. I am sending a copy to a Nebraska State Senator
- for consideration.
-
- Filed for intro on 01/21/98
-
- SENATE BILL 2167 By
-
- Cohen
-
- HOUSE BILL 2260
-
- By Buck
-
- AN ACT to amend Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 39, Chapter 11, Part 6, to enact
- the
- "Victim and Citizen Criminal Apprehension and Protection Act of 1998"
- authorizing the use of force
- to apprehend certain suspected felons and for the protection of persons and
- property from such
- felons.
-
- BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF TENNESSEE:
-
- SECTION 1. This act shall be known and may be cited as the "Victim and Citizen
- Criminal
- Apprehension and Protection Act of 1998".
-
- SECTION 2. Tennessee Code Annotated, Section 39-11-621, is amended by
- designating the
- existing language as subsection (a) and by adding the following new subsections:
-
- (b) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), a private citizen is
- justified in threatening or using
- all necessary force, including deadly force, to apprehend a person who is
- committing or has
- committed first or second degree murder, attempt to commit first or second
- degree murder,
- aggravated robbery, especially aggravated robbery, rape, aggravated rape, or
- rape of a child if the
- citizen uses such force:
-
- A) While the defendant is on the same property where the offense was committed
- or attempted to be
- committed or on any public property adjoining such property; and
-
- B) During or in fresh pursuit of the person after commission or attempted
- commission of the offense.
-
- (c) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), a private citizen present
- in a motor vehicle is
- justified in threatening or using all necessary force, including deadly force,
- against a person whom one
- reasonably believes is attempting to use unlawful force against such citizen
- while committing or
- attempting to commit the offense of carjacking.
-
- (d) Any private citizen using deadly force to apprehend a suspected felon under
- the circumstances set
- out in subsection (b) or who uses deadly force pursuant to subsection (c) is
- presumed to have been
- put in reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily harm to self
- or others by such
- offender and the use of deadly force is justified even though the person using
- such force does not
- retreat from the encounter.
-
- (e) Any private citizen who uses force under the circumstances authorized by
- subsections (b) or (c)
- shall be absolutely immune from actual or punitive damages resulting from
- property damage, injury or
- death either accidentally or intentionally inflicted by such citizen upon the
- person or persons who
- committed or attempted to commit one or more of the enumerated offenses.
-
- SECTION 2. This act shall take effect on July 1, 1998, the public welfare
- requiring it.
-
- Return to Main Bill Index
-
-
-
-
- - -
-
- ------------------------------
-
- End of utah-firearms-digest V2 #29
- **********************************
-
-