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movies-digest        Thursday, August 17 2000        Volume 02 : Number 285



Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn
Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn
[MV] Re: Picnic At Hanging Rock
Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn (SPOILERS for Reindeer Games at the end)
Re: [MV] Re: Picnic At Hanging Rock
Re: [MV] Re: Picnic At Hanging Rock
Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn (SPOILERS for Reindeer Games at theend)
[MV] Re: Shakespeare
[MV] Re: OT Brains vs. Brawn
[MV] Re: Reindeer Games
Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn
Re: [MV] Re: Reindeer Games
Re: [MV] Re: OT Brains vs. Brawn
[MV] bye
Re: [MV] bye
Re: [MV] Re: Shakespeare
Re: [MV] Re: OT Brains vs. Brawn
Re: [MV] 20 replies combined into one blamange.
Re: [MV] 20 replies combined into one blamange.
Re: [MV] 20 replies combined into one blamange.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:06:59 -0400
From: Mel Eperthener <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn

At 10.40 PM 15/08/2000 -0700, David F. Nolan wrote:
>Along those lines, I will take issue with Mel Eperthener's assertion that
>"Picnic At Hanging Rock" is a good movie.  I realize that a lot of "serious"
>critics agree with him, but I thought it was awful ... one of the worst
>movies I've ever watched. It's too long, boring, deliberately obscure,
>pretentious, has low production values, and goes nowhere. You never DO find
>out what happened to the damn girls on the picnic!  That's MY opinion; now,
>Mel, tell us why you think it's good!  (And anyone else who's seen it, feel
>free to chime in!)

Confession time....

Dunno.... never saw it:-)

Albeit it was the ONLY movie on that list that I never saw.

It was out of print for such a long time.... and then re-released at $100.
After taking the bath I did on Walkabout (similar time frame to Hanging
Rock, similar background, and it did nothing for me... so I didn't include
that one), I have not been willing to throw money after it.  Waiting for
the price to reduce.

However, the reason it was on the list:  It was based on a true story, it
was typical of it's time period (c 1971), especially of Australian cinema
at that point.  (I recently watched The Pallalax View, also from that time
period - and it showed that Arlington Road's ending was not as original as
I thought)  It was Peter Weir's first film. (and I was NOT about to put The
Cars that Eat People/Paris on the list... not that cruel).  And it is
considered a critical part of Australian History.  And EVERY review I have
ever read has praised the film to the Heavens.

As for never finding out what happened to the girls.  Like I said, it was a
true story.  And one of the mysteries of Australian History.

THAT is why it was on the list I submitted.:-)

Regards,

- --Mel


- --Mel Eperthener
president, Gowanna Multi-media Pty

Please support the endeavour
of a friend and fellow Australian.

Political Corrections by Michael Jaymes Cassidy
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/politicalmusings

______________________________________________
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death,
your right to say it. -Voltaire (1694-1778)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:35:35 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn

> Uh, you may want to watch yourself here, Dex, mate.
>
> Right now, it may be the gamerz v Oz....  but you start getting that gamerz
> 'tude here, you are going to find popular opinion going against you.
>
> Not to sound like my father..... when you put down the controller and get a
> job... an actual job, where you contribute something to the economy, you
> will understand why the anti-gamerz attitude is so strong.

The real irony here is that movies were equally hated and feared in the early
1900s when it first started to show potential as a mass media.   Women's
Temperance movements (the same folks who advocated prohibition)  were against
it, very much like soccer moms all scream bloody murder everytime a game looks
innapropriate to them.  Movies back then were seen as low art, entertainment for
the poor and uneducated.  The patriarchal attitude towards movies are now being
repeated on games.    Granted its only been commercially viable for about 30
years, it has achieved very much.  I recently attended the  E3 convention in Los
Angeles held by the IDSA (interactive digital software association) and one
thing it immediately clear,  video games are not toys any more. Or Sony and
Microsoft wouldn't bother.  Nintendo for that matter makes more money off its
games than most Hollywood studios combined.

There's no attitude here man.   OK, there migth have been a little, directed
towards Chris because of his tone but that discussion was winding down anyways.





>
>
> Just a fair, friendly warning to tread carefully here.  Remember, 'tis a
> place to discuss movies.

Yes sir.

>  Tho admittedly, some movies are easily confused
> with video games (and The Matrix comes to mind here... I thought Thirteenth
> Floor had the plot they missed), 'tis best to error on the side of caution.
>  :-)

The Matrix I think is a movie that only people who play videogames or people who
at least understand them can truly appreciate.  The movie makes various
allusions to games and the similarity of the structure between games and the
matrix is not a coincidence.  In the training scene for example where Neo was
put into a simulator, the directors deliberately casted twins to stand in for
the "synthetic crowd".  This is a detail that may puzzle the unintiated or its
probably something that just goes in one end and comes out the other without
much thought being put into it but it was done for a good reason.  Its a well
know fact most games feature a handful of character variations and character
faces are reused hundreds of times to save time and money (there's no way a game
developer can created a thousand, or two thousand orginal characters). Were made
to believe that the person who wrote the simulation program Neo was using got
lazy, or simply didn't have the time to create original characters so he reused
designes again.  There are more, but its little details like this that I
appreciate and so do my peers.

I know for a fact that some people see the stuff in the matrix as mumbo jumbo
made up by the screen writers.   All I have to say is, the Wachowski brothers
know their stuff.

As for limiting my references to video games, you have a totally valid point.
I'll keep it to a minimum or not at all.

Cheers,
Dex


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:53:50 -0700
From: "David F. Nolan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: [MV] Re: Picnic At Hanging Rock

on 8/15/2000 11:06 PM, Mel Eperthener at [e-mail] wrote:

> As for never finding out what happened to the girls.  Like I said, it was a
> true story.  And one of the mysteries of Australian History.

According to one of the more recent reviews on the Internet Movie Data Base
(www.imdb.com) that's a myth.... although I don't know for sure.

From reading the IMDB comments, I think this movie is more beloved by women
than by men (although my wife hated it too!).  Words like "dreamy" and
"surreal" and "delicate" and "haunting" keep popping up (along with "slow"
and "boring" and "pretentious").   There are overtones (or is it
undertones?) of lesbian dalliances, although nothing very overt.  As I said,
a lot of people think it's just wonderful... but I hated it, for all the
reasons I gave.  I definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone!


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:53:02 -0400
From: Mel Eperthener <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn (SPOILERS for Reindeer Games at the end)

At 11.35 PM 15/08/2000 -0700, Dexter Sy wrote:
>The real irony here is that movies were equally hated and feared in the early
>1900s when it first started to show potential as a mass media.   Women's
>Temperance movements (the same folks who advocated prohibition)  were against
>it, very much like soccer moms all scream bloody murder everytime a game
looks
>innapropriate to them.  Movies back then were seen as low art,
entertainment for
>the poor and uneducated.  The patriarchal attitude towards movies are now
being
>repeated on games.


Well, there is a learning curve.  And a development curve.  And at the risk
of going completely off-topic myself, you do realise that the game
developers already have systems that could blow what is currently available
away??  But they are milking the current platforms for all they can.

At least with movies and other programming, there was a good, economic
reason for not going to colour sooner.  The equipment was simply too
expensive.  And in the case of television, you had to have colour tellys
before you could do colour programming. (Heck, Australia didn't even start
broadcasting in colour till 1975)   We are seeing the same thing right now
with HDTV.  And just wait till you see a movie like The Matrix on DVD on a
widescreen HDTV telly.  Or any other Effects-laden movie.

(Having said that, I am most impressed with the sound on DVD.  One of my
favourites to watch on DVD is The Big Chill, because of the soundtrack.
Air Force One is also impressive, due to the sound work they did.  On the
other hand, I was very disappointed in Die Hard.  Sounded very tinny)

   Granted its only been commercially viable for about 30
>years, it has achieved very much.

Uh, I think 30 years is being kind.  Heck, Pong only came out in the
mid-to-late 70s.  (Of course, this is coming from someone looking for a
C-64, to access programmes from that time period)



>The Matrix I think is a movie that only people who play videogames or
people who
>at least understand them can truly appreciate.
<SNIP>
>I know for a fact that some people see the stuff in the matrix as mumbo jumbo
>made up by the screen writers.   All I have to say is, the Wachowski brothers
>know their stuff.

Yes, I have to give you that.  For all the pokes at the lack of plot, well
it did do the graphics very well, and did hold your attention.  I have come
to think the greatest crime, worse than bad taste, is being boring.  Heck,
even tho I do agree with a lot Oz had to say, I am sorely disappointed in
movies like Eyes Wide Shut and Eye of the Beholder (OK, Beholder had a LOT
wrong with it:-) and Holy Smoke because the committed the sin of being boring.

Having said that, anyone (Oz??) care to comment on Reindeer Games??
Possibly one of the best movies to discuss here, cause you know, for all
it's flaws, it WILL be number one in video this week.


SPOLIER ALERT!!!!




D
O
N
'T

S
A
Y

I

D
I
D
N
'T

W
A
R
N

Y
A!!!


Really, it's the cliches that got me more than anything.  And how many
times can they make us think someone is dead, only to bring them back??  It
worked in Fatal Attraction.  It worked the first time in about any horror
movie series.  But give it a bloody break now!!!!  Stop throwing red
herrings at us.

I thought the movie had SOME potential, but in it's drive to use EVERY
(yes, EVERY) cliche in the book, it just fell apart for me.

Regards,

- --Mel


- --Mel Eperthener
president, Gowanna Multi-media Pty     http://www.webz.com/gowanna
mailto:[e-mail]                  mailto:[e-mail]

419 Butler Street
PO Box 95184
Pittsburgh, PA 15223-0184
[phone]                                    [phone]
1-888-45-GOWANNA -- TOLL FREE     (1-888-454-6926)
____________________________________________
"Wow! So that is what all that extra space on the movie screen is
 for!" reaction to  "Gladiator"
______________________________________________


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[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:58:29 -0400
From: Mel Eperthener <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: Picnic At Hanging Rock

At 11.53 PM 15/08/2000 -0700, David F. Nolan wrote:
>> As for never finding out what happened to the girls.  Like I said, it was a
>> true story.  And one of the mysteries of Australian History.
>
>According to one of the more recent reviews on the Internet Movie Data Base
>(www.imdb.com) that's a myth.... although I don't know for sure.

Well, especially with Australian history, there is a lot of myth and
superstition.  At the risk of going off-topic yet again, there is a new
book out, called In A Sunburned Country by Bill Bryson.  I'm only a few
pages into it, and it has taught me things I didn't know about my own
country.  (And I was practicularly an Australian History major, too)  Not
sure if Hanging Rock is going to be covered, but I will keep you posted.

Book is featured prominently at Borders.  That is how I found out about it,
too.

>
>From reading the IMDB comments, I think this movie is more beloved by women
>than by men (although my wife hated it too!).  Words like "dreamy" and
>"surreal" and "delicate" and "haunting" keep popping up (along with "slow"
>and "boring" and "pretentious").   There are overtones (or is it
>undertones?) of lesbian dalliances, although nothing very overt.  As I said,
>a lot of people think it's just wonderful... but I hated it, for all the
>reasons I gave.  I definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone!

Lesbian Undertones in an Australian movie??  Say it ain't so:-)

I give to you, as two short examples, Heavenly Creatures (yes, New Zealand,
but remember what I said about Kiwis.... the Canadians of the South
Pacific:-) and Love Serenade (and sisters, too!!)  And that is just two.  I
could name heaps more.

Regards,

- --Mel


- --Mel Eperthener
president, Gowanna Multi-media Pty     http://www.webz.com/gowanna
mailto:[e-mail]                  mailto:[e-mail]

419 Butler Street
PO Box 95184
Pittsburgh, PA 15223-0184
[phone]                                    [phone]
1-888-45-GOWANNA -- TOLL FREE     (1-888-454-6926)
____________________________________________
"Wow! So that is what all that extra space on the movie screen is
 for!" reaction to  "Gladiator"
______________________________________________


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[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:58:29 -0400
From: Mel Eperthener <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: Picnic At Hanging Rock

At 11.53 PM 15/08/2000 -0700, David F. Nolan wrote:
>> As for never finding out what happened to the girls.  Like I said, it was a
>> true story.  And one of the mysteries of Australian History.
>
>According to one of the more recent reviews on the Internet Movie Data Base
>(www.imdb.com) that's a myth.... although I don't know for sure.

Well, especially with Australian history, there is a lot of myth and
superstition.  At the risk of going off-topic yet again, there is a new
book out, called In A Sunburned Country by Bill Bryson.  I'm only a few
pages into it, and it has taught me things I didn't know about my own
country.  (And I was practicularly an Australian History major, too)  Not
sure if Hanging Rock is going to be covered, but I will keep you posted.

Book is featured prominently at Borders.  That is how I found out about it,
too.

>
>From reading the IMDB comments, I think this movie is more beloved by women
>than by men (although my wife hated it too!).  Words like "dreamy" and
>"surreal" and "delicate" and "haunting" keep popping up (along with "slow"
>and "boring" and "pretentious").   There are overtones (or is it
>undertones?) of lesbian dalliances, although nothing very overt.  As I said,
>a lot of people think it's just wonderful... but I hated it, for all the
>reasons I gave.  I definitely wouldn't recommend it to anyone!

Lesbian Undertones in an Australian movie??  Say it ain't so:-)

I give to you, as two short examples, Heavenly Creatures (yes, New Zealand,
but remember what I said about Kiwis.... the Canadians of the South
Pacific:-) and Love Serenade (and sisters, too!!)  And that is just two.  I
could name heaps more.

Regards,

- --Mel


- --Mel Eperthener
president, Gowanna Multi-media Pty     http://www.webz.com/gowanna
mailto:[e-mail]                  mailto:[e-mail]

419 Butler Street
PO Box 95184
Pittsburgh, PA 15223-0184
[phone]                                    [phone]
1-888-45-GOWANNA -- TOLL FREE     (1-888-454-6926)
____________________________________________
"Wow! So that is what all that extra space on the movie screen is
 for!" reaction to  "Gladiator"
______________________________________________


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 01:42:00 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn (SPOILERS for Reindeer Games at theend)

> Well, there is a learning curve.  And a development curve.  And at the risk
> of going completely off-topic myself, you do realise that the game
> developers already have systems that could blow what is currently available
> away??  But they are milking the current platforms for all they can.

I can speak with authority on this and say they are :)  The problem right now is
with PC gaming where it seems like theres a new upgrade every six months.
Ridiculous even by today's standards.  A guy who bought a PlayStation in 1995 when
it first came out will only need to upgrade later then year when PlayStation 2 is
released. If they want to.  There's still enough games out there to keep the
average casual gamer occupied until the playstation 2 hits the mass market price
range.  At $300 its hella expensive and Sony's targeting the hardcore technophiles
right now.

>
>
> At least with movies and other programming, there was a good, economic
> reason for not going to colour sooner.  The equipment was simply too
> expensive.  And in the case of television, you had to have colour tellys
> before you could do colour programming. (Heck, Australia didn't even start
> broadcasting in colour till 1975)   We are seeing the same thing right now
> with HDTV.  And just wait till you see a movie like The Matrix on DVD on a
> widescreen HDTV telly.  Or any other Effects-laden movie.

Well, I don't think just because it has a lot of effects its better suited for
HDTV.  I have always hated television for its blurry picture, its intolerable
curvature and its hard headed insistance to be a Square when moving pictures are
in rectangles.  HDTV will fix that and I'm very happy. HDTV also offers higher
resoltuion... something that will definately improve the quality of the picture
for any movie.   The major misconception is that HDTV combined with digital
mediums like DVD brings out more detail hence your reference that it is good for
effects-laden movies.  The thing is, detail is only the means to an end.   With a
sharper picture, the experience itself is closer to the original print since the
picture isn't blurred by the television.  Therefore what people really want isn't
detail, but rather the experience afforded by the amount of detail so that they
may look into a screen with a level of detail so high it can almost pass for a
window and that is afterall what a movie is, a window into a different world.  I'm
also been made aware of the of the idea that the audience is a voyeur looking
through a window, something film scholars often use as a key analytical angle for
film.  So if HDTV helps faciliate that, I'm all for it :o)

>
> (Having said that, I am most impressed with the sound on DVD.  One of my
> favourites to watch on DVD is The Big Chill, because of the soundtrack.
> Air Force One is also impressive, due to the sound work they did.  On the
> other hand, I was very disappointed in Die Hard.  Sounded very tinny)

DVD rocks... and that is that.  :o)

>
>
> Uh, I think 30 years is being kind.  Heck, Pong only came out in the
> mid-to-late 70s.  (Of course, this is coming from someone looking for a
> C-64, to access programmes from that time period)

I'd kill to have a C-64.  I was going to say 20 years when I was writing but I
felt I'd go make it 30 just to be sure.

Games have grown by leaps and bounds as you've alluded to earlier.  You're
undoubtly aware of a film being prepared by Square studios called Final Fantasy.
Very impressive CG work as the entire movie is built in the computer, even the
human characters.    Well, I'm not sure how good that movie is, and I will admit
the teasers seem to hint as a techno feast that doesn't mesh well with the movie's
namesake games, but you should check out the Final Fantasy games. They  are among
a new generation of interactive entertainment that push games on a narritive
level, so much so that the guys at Squaresoft got ambitious and decided to make a
movie :-P  Not to mention Final Fantasy is to Japan culturally what Star Wars is
to Americans.  Actually, Star Wars is pretty big in Japan too, but in anycase, the
FF games are Japans biggest "fantasy/sci-fi" export in the last ten years.

> Yes, I have to give you that.  For all the pokes at the lack of plot, well
> it did do the graphics very well, and did hold your attention.

It's not that simple you see.  I think people need to get over their preconceived
notions about effects. A movie with a lot of effects doesn't mean the effects made
the movie.  Movies like Godzilla failed miserably despite its convincing effects.

I'd be glad to have a discussion with you on the point of plot if you could
articulate what exactly about it you didn't like.  What I liked about the Matrix
was how it was subtly exploring the issues of the digital culture without being
blatant about it.    On the surface, the movie seems to deal with the issue of
"the matrix/the computer system/the synthetic world" on a very superficial level,
similar to  how New York is thrown in as a setting for a movie just because its
New York.   To some audiences, the computer environment may feel like it was just
thrown in as the setting so the directors can have fun with the action sequences.
And that may well be part of the reason.  But in the finished product, there's a
lot of aspects of the film that explores digital culture with an understanding
that is genuine and you know its not going to pull a fast one on the audience.
And trust me its not easy.  I've seen countless TV shows and movies try to pretend
they know the digital culture and fake it. But most people 25 and below can look
at it and knows its just some crappy shit made up to sell to people outside the
culture who are totally clueless.  The Wachowski's must be given credit for the
fact that everything in the Matrix are totally believable and the Matrix itself is
described as a computer program and in that sense, everything the movie pulls,
with one exception, are all technically plausible.   One thing in particular that
impressed me was their choise of  the computer A.I. as the villian in the film.
This may seem like a convinient and impersonal enemy for the audience to hat.
After all, we all kinda hated HAL too.  But while HAL explored the ethical issues
surrounding the right to self preservation with the issue of smart computers
coming in as a distant second, the A.I. creatures in the Matrix like Agent. Smith
(also note his obviously generic name) and his cronies are portrayed as hunters,
anti-virus programs going around the system hunting for bugs in the system.  They
are footsoldiers, programs within a program and they are our enemy for good
reason.  In games, the A.I. is the enemy and they can be seen as the protectors of
the program, trying to defeat the intruders (the human players) from winning  and
hence, taking over the game world or in other words, taking over the matrix.    I
have more to say but I think my hands are about to fall off.



> I have come
> to think the greatest crime, worse than bad taste, is being boring.  Heck,
> even tho I do agree with a lot Oz had to say, I am sorely disappointed in
> movies like Eyes Wide Shut and Eye of the Beholder (OK, Beholder had a LOT
> wrong with it:-) and Holy Smoke because the committed the sin of being boring.

The amazing thing is, audiences agree. Reindeer Games, Eyes Wide Shot and Eye of
the Beholder are all considered bombs.  And the former two were promoted heavily
and hyped up too.  Give the audience and general public some some credit eh?

This is a huge reply,  I am tired. Sorry if I confused anyone.. G'night.

- --
Dexter S.
Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
Http://www.tendobox.com



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:15:00 -0600
From: ("Paul D  Richardson") <[e-mail]>
Subject: [MV] Re: Shakespeare

> Personally, I think for the first time in a long while, Shakespeare
> is being theatened by the medium of film and other forms of visual
> entertainment.

I must disagree.  Only yesterday, a two-disc Special Edition of TITUS came out
on DVD.  This is a film based on one of Shakespeare's lesser-known plays, and
has received quite a bit of critical acclaim.  In addition, there have been at
least two Shakespeare adaptations for the big screen released this year
(HAMLET and LOVE'S LABOURS LOST).  Shakespearean festivals around the country
continue to sell out.  He isn't going anywhere.  He certainly has a larger
audience than when he was alive.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:20:00 -0600
From: ("Paul D  Richardson") <[e-mail]>
Subject: [MV] Re: OT Brains vs. Brawn

> As for the Kiwis, like Campion, Crowe and Sam Neill (I think he's a Kiwi,
> too), well, you gotta understand they WANT to be Australian.... sort of
> like the way Canadians view the Yanks:-)

Canadians do not want to be associated with Americans (for lack of a better
word for those of us living in the US).  Right now there is a beer commercial
that is enormously popular called "My name is Joe" that is all about asserting
Canadian individuality and deflating stereotypes ("I say about, not
'aboot'!").  Another example would be Canadian backpackers in Europe, who sew
Canadian flags on their backpacks so that they aren't mistaken for "Ugly
Amercians."

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:29:00 -0600
From: ("Paul D  Richardson") <[e-mail]>
Subject: [MV] Re: Reindeer Games

> I thought the movie had SOME potential, but in it's drive to use EVERY
> (yes, EVERY) cliche in the book, it just fell apart for me.

If you think REINDEER GAMES was cliche-driven, wait until you see WHAT LIES
BENEATH.  It makes REINDEER GAMES look like BEING JOHN MALKOVICH in terms of
originality.  There is not one element of that film that isn't derived from an
earlier picture.  And, of course, audiences are raving about it.  *sigh*

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:43:41 -0500
From: Diane Christy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Brains vs. Brawn

On 8/16/00, 1:48 AM -0400, [e-mail] said so nicely:
>Yes, but the thing is that I'm not talking about the fact that everyone is
>entitled to their opinion (which they are, BTW).  I understand what you're
>saying, but the thing I'm talking about is how Chris calls someone a moron
>for liking something.

My turn to chime in!  Eric, that's his opinion.  He may truly feel
that way.  You may feel that's wrong, but I bet if you asked everyone
on the list whether or not they had some kind of snob attitude (I'm
using this as a descriptive adjective and not as a judgement) toward
people who watch certain kinds of movies there would be these
"opinions" all over the place.  I know I have them.  I have to
realize that I'm operating out of this attitude and suspend it to
give people and the movie a fair shake.  It's just a way of operating
as a human being.  So give your arguing companion a break and let him
have his attitude.  Trying to convince him otherwise doesn't seem to
be getting anywhere.  Oh, and Chris, please don't get the idea I'm
ganging up on you.  I'm not.  I'm just trying to help restore
harmony.  Not everyone agrees with everything all the time, and
that's ok!
- --
~~~~~
Diane Christy (Samantha and Joshua's Mom)
Jefferson, LA
http://www.geocities.com/~dchristy10/
mailto:[e-mail]
ICQ #12904700  <dkbc10> on Instant AOL Messenger
~~~~~

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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:32:27 -0400
From: Mel Eperthener <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: Reindeer Games

At 09.29 AM 16/08/2000 -0600, Paul D  Richardson wrote:
>If you think REINDEER GAMES was cliche-driven, wait until you see WHAT LIES
>BENEATH.  It makes REINDEER GAMES look like BEING JOHN MALKOVICH in terms of
>originality.  There is not one element of that film that isn't derived
from an
>earlier picture.  And, of course, audiences are raving about it.  *sigh*
>

Funny you should mention that.  I just had a customer in here trying to
convince me that What Lies Beneath was an excellent film, and I should go
see it.  And I used to respect her opinion, at least until she told me she
didn't like American Beauty:-)

Even worse (which was my position in the discussion just ended) is that
they give away EVERY MAJOR plot point in the trailers.  But I have already
seen rants about this, so I will stop here.

Regards,

- --Mel


- --Mel Eperthener
president, Gowanna Multi-media Pty     http://www.webz.com/gowanna
mailto:[e-mail]                  mailto:[e-mail]

419 Butler Street
PO Box 95184
Pittsburgh, PA 15223-0184
[phone]                                    [phone]
1-888-45-GOWANNA -- TOLL FREE     (1-888-454-6926)
____________________________________________
"Wow! So that is what all that extra space on the movie screen is
 for!" reaction to  "Gladiator"
______________________________________________


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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:39:35 -0400
From: Mel Eperthener <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: OT Brains vs. Brawn

At 09.20 AM 16/08/2000 -0600, Paul D  Richardson wrote:
>> As for the Kiwis, like Campion, Crowe and Sam Neill (I think he's a Kiwi,
>> too), well, you gotta understand they WANT to be Australian.... sort of
>> like the way Canadians view the Yanks:-)
>
>Canadians do not want to be associated with Americans (for lack of a better
>word for those of us living in the US).

Please don't tell me you really believe that:-)  The commercials and such
are just a backlash.  Besides, it is great fun to ask a Canadian if they
are a Yank.  They get really peeved about the confusion.  However, having
abdicated their culture to the Americans, they have pretty much cast their
lot with the country to the South.

Both countries (Canada and New Zealand) are dependent on their bigger
neighbour for culture and trade.  Both have allowed homegrown culture to
stagnate because of the overwhelming influence of the dominate culture.
And citizens of both countries are moving in droves to the neighbouring
country because of a higher standard of living.  (Kiwis actually can get
more dole money (welfare benefits) from the Australian government than
their own government!!!)  Just like Crowe, Campion, et al are confused for
Australians, I think you would be hard pressed, if given a list of actors,
to tell which are Yanks and which are Canadians (more Canadians than you
realise).

Heck, it is so bad that Canadian movies can't even really be differentated
from US productions.  (There, to get everything back on topic:-)

Having said that, the My Name is Joe spot is one of the funniest things I
have ever seen.  And it is shown in theatres all over Canada.

Regards,

- --Mel


- --Mel Eperthener
president, Gowanna Multi-media Pty

Please support the endeavour
of a friend and fellow Australian.

Political Corrections by Michael Jaymes Cassidy
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/politicalmusings

______________________________________________
I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death,
your right to say it. -Voltaire (1694-1778)
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---


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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:07:13 EDT
From: "Jed Cross" <[e-mail]>
Subject: [MV] bye

Okay
Well I am leaving the movies list, bye.


- -Jed
MSN messenger: [e-mail]
AIM:jedcross
Yahoo pager: jedcross
ICQ: 83842545

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:20:29 -0500
From: Diane Christy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] bye

On 8/16/00, 5:07 PM -0400, Jed Cross said so nicely:
>Well I am leaving the movies list, bye.

How come??
- --
~~~~~
Diane Christy (Samantha and Joshua's Mom)
Jefferson, LA
http://www.geocities.com/~dchristy10/
mailto:[e-mail]
ICQ #12904700  <dkbc10> on Instant AOL Messenger
~~~~~

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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:01:31 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: Shakespeare

>
> I must disagree.  Only yesterday, a two-disc Special Edition of TITUS came out
> on DVD.  This is a film based on one of Shakespeare's lesser-known plays, and
> has received quite a bit of critical acclaim.  In addition, there have been at
> least two Shakespeare adaptations for the big screen released this year
> (HAMLET and LOVE'S LABOURS LOST).  Shakespearean festivals around the country
> continue to sell out.  He isn't going anywhere.  He certainly has a larger
> audience than when he was alive.

WEll I really don't want to get into a protracted discussion about this.  My main
observation in the e-mail I wrote is that he is being carted off into academia,
for the most part.  The aforementioned films didn't have huge audiences.

that's it.  I'm not saying anything else about it.




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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:10:56 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: OT Brains vs. Brawn

> Please don't tell me you really believe that:-)  The commercials and such
> are just a backlash.  Besides, it is great fun to ask a Canadian if they
> are a Yank.  They get really peeved about the confusion.  However, having
> abdicated their culture to the Americans, they have pretty much cast their
> lot with the country to the South.

The thing I'd like to say is that Canadians aren't ethnically different from the
Americans.  We all pretty much came from the same place so the part on
abdicating our culture may be a little bit misleading.  I think stories that are
local to Canada, you know, a movie set in Toronoto not Toronto dessed up to be
New York or Vancouver dressed up to be San Francsico  are lacking. I will give
you that much.  But there's so much in common between the two cultures to begin
with its inevitable that the Americans do take over the job of telling some of
the more redundant stories which I'm fine with.   A love Story is a love story,
and its going to be more or less the same whether its in Vancouver or its in
Seattle.  Both cities are practically sister cities.  The thing that I think can
be improved is that more localized movies about Canadians should be made
available.  We don't really need to see another football movie when a hockey
movie may be more fitting.

As for Culture, I'll have to say the relationship between Canada and the U.S. is
more regional in the sense that the western cities have more in common with
their western neighbors down south than they do with cities accross in the
east.  Im fron Vancouver and I can relate to Seattle, San Francisco and Portland
a lot more than I can to New York.  Conversely, my friends from Toronto feel
more at home in the big East Coast cities than they do in the west.    Relatives
from the Canadians plains in Alberta, and Minbota feels more connection with the
folks in Idaho and Montana than they do with us folks here in Vancouver who are
a mountain range away.



- --
Dexter S.
Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
Http://www.tendobox.com



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:38:47 -0700
From: Chris Parry <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] 20 replies combined into one blamange.

Diane Christy wrote:
>
> My turn to chime in!  Eric, that's his opinion.  He may truly feel
> that way.  You may feel that's wrong, but I bet if you asked everyone
> on the list whether or not they had some kind of snob attitude (I'm
> using this as a descriptive adjective and not as a judgement) toward
> people who watch certain kinds of movies there would be these
> "opinions" all over the place.  I know I have them.

Well said, and they're valid, even if they're about you yourself.
Personally I like to know if someone thinks I'm a moron, rather than
have them smile and keep it to themselves. So in a way, Eric, I'm
doing you a favour. And it's nothing personal. Anyone who is into
Pokemon I consider to be a moron. That's just the way it is. I
thought all those kids who invested thousands in baseball cards a
few years back were morons too, and I think history proved me right
on that one.

> Oh, and Chris, please don't get the idea I'm
> ganging up on you.  I'm not.  I'm just trying to help restore
> harmony.  Not everyone agrees with everything all the time, and
> that's ok!

How right you are, missus! Next reply:

Mel Eperthener wrote:
>
> Uh, I think 30 years is being kind.  Heck, Pong only came out in the
> mid-to-late 70s.  (Of course, this is coming from someone looking for a
> C-64, to access programmes from that time period)

I just sold a C-64. Got an Intellivision somewhere if you're looking
for one of those. In fact, I have a Hanimex Pong system that my dad
bought me in 1977 and still works. Pong, Atari, Intellivision, C-64,
Apple ][ clone, 286 clone, 386, 486-33, pentium.. it's been a steady
progression in technological upgrades throughout my life. The
problems Playstation people have with continually needing to upgrade
have been with us many many years. And console systems are more
prone to this than computers, because computers can be built on.
Consoles need to be replaced. They own your ass...

> Having said that, anyone (Oz??) care to comment on Reindeer Games??
> Possibly one of the best movies to discuss here, cause you know, for all
> it's flaws, it WILL be number one in video this week.

Umm, I'm not allowed to slag this flick off publicly. Someone I know
who is close to it (to say the least) would get mighty peed off with
me and, to be fair, there were external forces that stopped this
film from being what it was originally intended to be. Cryptic
enough? Good. Figure it out yourself.

Next!

"David F. Nolan" wrote:
>
> A month-old baby will
> watch anything that moves; to him it's "entertainment" --- fascinating,
> thrilling, etc.  As we grow older, our standards rise -- from "anything
> bright and shiny" to Teletubbies, to Barney, Rugrats, Pokemon, Martin
> Lawrence and on up the scale.  So unless you know something about the source
> of an opinion, it's of little value.

Trust Davey boy to put in one paragraph what's taken me four days to
get across. By all means, love Big Momma's House, just understand
that you're at the bottom end of the spectrum when doing so, and
will be dubbed a goof by people who expect more.

Should you be labelled? Probably not. Will you be anyway? Oh yeah.

> Along those lines, I will take issue with Mel Eperthener's assertion that
> "Picnic At Hanging Rock" is a good movie.  I realize that a lot of "serious"
> critics agree with him, but I thought it was awful ... one of the worst
> movies I've ever watched.

I have to disagree here. If watched in the context of the time it
was made, Picnic has to be seen as a wonder. It's like watching
Citizen Kane and saying "I don't get all the fuss." You have to
realise the things that, at the time it was made, made this film
genius. Never before had sets included ceilings. Never had the
camera moved in such a way. If seen in today's terms, Kane is a good
movie, but if seen in terms of what film was back then it's a
masterpiece. Such is the way with Picnic. If we compare it to films
like Sixth Sense that use all of today's tricks, it's easy to
denigrate. But if seen as a mid 70's spooky-art film that manages to
portray the spooks through nothing more than sound, atmosphere and
inference, it's a real achievement. A Blair Witch for the 70's?
Let's not go there.

Next!

Dexter Sy wrote:
>
> In his synopsis for his latest book,  "I hated, hated, hated This Movie"
> Ebert wrote
> "The easiest movies to write about are always the ones at the extremes. Good and
> bad movies dictate their own reviews; those in the middle are more of a
> challenge."

Certainly they are. Any critic can tell you this. Middle range
movies are a challenge because there's nothing to say other than
blah. To me, blah is a fail. I'll agree I have harder views than
most and when rating a movie I tend to start from zero stars and
make the film earn each star it gets, whereas many other critics
start with five and take one off every time something is awful. I
can't abide by that.
To me, movies are far too expensive. For a family of four to hit the
flicks, the average dad has to set aside $60 or more. The filmmaker,
in my opinion, needs to consider this when making the film. They
need to ask if what they are making is going to be worth that money,
or is it going to be a strictly commercial exercise aimed at
extracting that cash in the quickest possible way? To me, if a film
is like Return To Me, strictly by the numbers, never trying anything
new, just churning out a product with some names attached, that's
bordering on criminal. And when people accept that as "okay" because
it's not awful as such, just not very good, it really annoys me.

It's not that hard to at least try to be original. You don't have to
succeed, you don't have to make a Being John Malkovich, you just
need to try. If I see a film like Tim Roth's The War Zone, which
tries something really difficult and botches it up, I'll give that
film a ton more cred than something like Big Momma's House, a film
that just follows already proven formulas, hits the lowest rung in
every department, tries absolutely nothing different and is
basically engineered to seperate us from our cash in such a way that
we don't complain.

> Borrowing from Ebert,  "I hated, hated, hated Snobs"

You have to understand, there's degrees of snobbery. Is Ebert a snob
when he says his favourite film is Battleship Potempkin (a Russian
film from early in the century)? Am I a snob when I say Big Momma's
House is sludge? I don't think so. Both opinions are not only valid,
but probably in the majority. In my eyes, a snob is someone who
won't see a film without subtitles, or who can't enjoy a good action
film just because it's an action film. A snob is also someone who
won't go and see a movie BECAUSE it has subtitles, or because it
doesn't star anyone he/she knows by name.

We're all snobs for something. I'm a snob against crap. I hate,
hate, hate crap. If you love, love, love crap, we're going to be on
a different page. To be fair, I think more often than not we'll be
in agreeance. I don't automatically dislike something because it's
low-grade. I saw Loser last night and, aside from an ending that
came out of nowhere and some of the most out of place music I've
ever witnessed in a film, it was a pretty enjoyable tame sort of a
flick. Would I consider it crap? Mostly. Would I say it occupies the
middle ground? Almost. Would I consider someone who gave it five
stars a moron? Most definitely.

If that now means some of you are morons in my eyes and you object
to that... life's tough. Wear a helmet.

OZ

http://www.efilmcritic.com
http://www.mymovies.com.au
http://www.tribe.com
http://www.if.com.au
http://ifmagazine.ifctv.com
http://www.sain.com.au

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Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 01:06:08 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [MV] 20 replies combined into one blamange.

In a message dated 08/16/2000 9:28:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,=20
[e-mail] writes:

<< Well said, and they're valid, even if they're about you yourself.
 Personally I like to know if someone thinks I'm a moron, rather than
 have them smile and keep it to themselves. So in a way, Eric, I'm
 doing you a favour. And it's nothing personal. Anyone who is into
 Pokemon I consider to be a moron. That's just the way it is. I
 thought all those kids who invested thousands in baseball cards a
 few years back were morons too, and I think history proved me right
 on that one. >>

Yes, I suppose they're valid opinions, but I just never have seen the sense=20
in judging anything but a person's taste in movies by the movies they like o=
r=20
don't like.  And, with the baseball card remark, if you must know, I gave up=
=20
on Pok=E9mon cards a long time ago when I realized I was never going to be=20
interested in playing the card game.  My liking of Pok=E9mon stems from the=20
videogame.  I originally thought the anime series was for the Pok=E9mon crow=
d=20
that was under 6.  I don't know how I got into it so easily, but I thought i=
t=20
was surprisingly good.  All I can say is that it's for the fans of the game.
As for your comments on "TV watchers," I know that movies work on different=20
levels.  Believe me on that one.  I know there are differences between the=20
kind of entertainment that is Forrest Gump to the kind that is Frasier.  I=20
think TV shows that go to film are getting a rather bad rap because people=20
assume that they don't know how to successfully translate something to the=20
big screen.  The only movie I think of as more of a long television episode=20
is Pocket Monsters: Revelation Lugia (known as Pok=E9mon the Movie 2000 here=
),=20
which didn't have the greatest plot or villain, but was a lot of fun for fan=
s=20
of the series.  Two movies I'd think of that made a rather successful=20
translation to movie theaters were South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut=20
(brilliant move on making it a musical as well) and Pocket Monsters: Mewtwo'=
s=20
Revenge (villain is a breath of fresh air from the rather cliche "all=20
powerful wants to take over the world villain" that Warner Bros. turned him=20
into).  My $.02 on that issue.
- -Eric-

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Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:28:12 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] 20 replies combined into one blamange.

>  The
> problems Playstation people have with continually needing to upgrade
> have been with us many many years. And console systems are more
> prone to this than computers, because computers can be built on.
> Consoles need to be replaced. They own your ass...

Actually given PlayStation now cost $99 and have at or under $200 for most of its
lifespan, its at a price no computers can beat.  You get a  lot of processing bang for
your buck and people can bear replacing a PlayStation because its cheap.  What can you
get for $99, or lets be fair and assume I bought one several years ago at the higher
$200 price range.  At the price, I won't be getting much of a computer I'll tell you
that.

Anyways, this is way out of the movie discussion, but Microsoft has decided to enter
the console business for one thing and one thing only. Consoles won.
- --
Dexter S.
Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
Http://www.tendobox.com



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