ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/movies/archive/v02.n278

Internet Message Format | 2000-07-20 | 51KB

From: [e-mail] (movies-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: movies-digest V2 #278
Reply-To: movies-digest
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


movies-digest          Friday, July 21 2000          Volume 02 : Number 278



[MV] Re: WHaaatttt????
Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
[MV] OOOOOh, Star Wars debate
Re: [MV] Patriot - the british
Re: [MV] Re: WHaaatttt????
RE: [MV] Patriot - the british
RE: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
RE: [MV] Patriot - the british
Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
Re: [MV] Patriot - the british
RE: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
RE: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
Re: [MV] OOOOOh, Star Wars debate
Re: [MV] Re: WHaaatttt????
Re: [MV] RE: I don't wanna sound elitist
Re: [MV] RE: I don't wanna sound elitist

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:21:55 +0100
From: "geeg23" <[e-mail]>
Subject: [MV] Re: WHaaatttt????

What on earth was that post (see below) about?  Of course Luke Skywalker has
to "pretend" that things like a landspeeder are the norm.  If it is that
days equivalent of a car and not a "new" invention why would he be staring
at it and asking for an explanation how it works?  I dont recall any scenes
in, say, alien when they ask how the suspended animation works!  The films
that employ explanations are ones set now and are introducing new concepts.
If you stumbled into someones house today, and saw they had a time machine,
I think you would question how it works not just accept it.
And as for getting spiritual life improving messages from "Star
wars"...............I find that a little sad.  Why can't people accept Star
Wars as what it is.........a mediocre sci fi fantasy tale that hit the
screens at the right time.  Groundbreaking yes, brilliant-no!

Gerry T.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: 21 July 2000 06:28
Subject: [MV] Movies and My Rant on Star Wars


> >
> >
> > Well, so do I.  After all, aren't movies supposed to entertain more than
> > anything?
> > -Eric-
>
> Yep.   I regularly watch movies that are nothing more than action.  Or
say, Bond
> clones, movies like Entrapment.  But movies that titillates my senses also
gets
> extra points.
>
> Star Wars for example... It has primordial themes, very simple.  Critics
from
> the school of Star Trek and serious science-fiction scoff at the whole
notion
> that there is a deeper meaning behind the Star Wars movies.  What they
utterly
> miss as I pointed out earlier is that Star Wars isn't neccessarily science
> fiction, it  is a fantasy film with very cool high tech gadgetry.  While
being
> interviewed for Episode 1, Liam Neeson made a very interesting poitn which
I've
> always known.  He mention (and I'm paraphrasing here) that Star Wars
movies uses
> all these amazing technologies but act as if its "matter of fact" stuff.
I
> think that's Irish/British Jargon for everyday life.   Neeson made the
analysis
> that Luke skywalker's landspeeder is shown in the movie as another peice
of
> hardware.  He gets in and gets out of it like its done everyday, yet
there's the
> underlying fantastic thing that his car hovers!  Did he notice it? No.
Luke is
> Luke, not Mark Hamill pretending to be Luke and acting all blown away by
all
> this technology.  Because he isn't supposed to be.  An inherent flaw in
many
> science fiction films and this includes Star Trek the TV series and the
movies
> is that they treat the technology they use as if the characters were 20th
> century time travellers in the future.  They are many moments where the
> film/show goes into a long babble of technical analysis explaining how the
> machines work and there are also moments where the characters themselves
are as
> surprised by the technology they are using as the audience is.  That I
think
> removes these futuristic characters from their settings and place them
firmly in
> the here and now. That is all well and good and Star Trek has a distinctly
> different focus than Wars, but I prefer Star Wars' very casual treatment
of
> technology.  They are living in a Galactic Republic, wow. Replace
Coruscant's
> Greco-Roman skyscrapers with Columns and Domes and you have Rome.   Lucas
didn't
> sent out to imagine a futuristic city, he went to the past to get his
vision of
> this fantastic capital city, and I think that is also one of the other
things
> that rings very true in the films. We've all seen the stuff before, but
Lucas
> just tilts it like Esher and voila, its a new vision.
>
> The film have simple themes, yes, but these are also timeless themes.  The
> notion that all of us have a good and bad side may be dismissed by people
as
> common sense, but no film before Star Wars have used it as its central
theme.  I
> can't count the number of times I've looked at a situation and realized
that I
> was using the things Yoda told luke to guage my own sanity and my own
> evilness.   I am somewhat impatient, I get peeved when people make me
wait, and
> it is times like that which the Star Wars themes rings true.  I am waiting
for a
> friend to arrive, Its been more than an hour. I am not in the best of
moods, so
> my mind is automatically going into revenge mode.  "Why not just call it
off and
> forget about it when she arrives so at least she would suffer a little
too".
> But I very often come around and remind myself that is the "quick and easy
> path"  Yes, it is very easy and satisfying to get back at someone, but it
is
> also the path to the dark side as it leads only to hurt feelings and
> suffering.     Star War's message isn't some baloney phoney message
dressed up
> by Lucas to sell tickets. I believe the director means it when he says he
has
> something he wants to teach young people.
>
> Quoting Roger Ebert in his summation of the Star Wars movies, he said
>
> "The film philosophies that will live forever are the simplest-seeming
ones.
> They may  have profound depths, but their surfaces are as clear to an
audience
> as a beloved old story. The way I know this is because the stories that
seem
> immortal--'The Odyssey,' 'Don Quixote,' 'David Copperfield,' 'Huckleberry
> Finn'--are all the same: A brave but flawed hero, a quest, colorful people
and
> places, sidekicks, the discovery of life's underlying truths"
>
> And he adds
>
> " If I were asked to say with certainty which movies will still be
widely-known
> a century or two from now, I would list '2001,'   nd 'The Wizard of Oz,'
and
> Keaton and Chaplin, and Astaire and Rogers, and  probably 'Casablanca'. .
. and
> ``Star Wars,'' for sure."
>
> End of Rant
>
> Dexter
>
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]
>



[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:54:55 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like

Just a comment on the Seven Samurai.  Its not really a war film, but it had
a big climax in the end.

Dexter

MARK wrote:

> Nah, nah nah, they are all bad films, however my list of stinkers are:
>
> HIGHLANDER - a detestible pile of cack, why do so many people like this
> film
> Wild Wild West - There haven't been many that are worse
> Anna and the King - Just pips The Patriot as being the most boring 3
> hours of my life
> Dirty Weekend - Michael Winner should just be shot!
> The Waterboy - WHY!!!!!!
> Getting Even With Dad - Mac nearly always destroys a film
> The out of towners (remake) - Steve Martin is a GOD, however, this is a
> terrible film
> Summer of Sam - I really wanted to like this film, but it was
> dis-jointed and badly edited
> My Favourite Martian - I was flying back from Dubai, there was nothing
> else on  - HONEST!!!!
> Entrapment - derivative crap - go see the far superior remake of "The
> Thomas Crown Affair" for a good thief movie.
> The Avengers - Nobody could have actually liked this movie
>
> (Shit, I've just noticed that there are 3 Sean Connery films in my list
> - greatest living Scotsman - PAH!!)
>
> I realise that this is a fairly recent list of films, but I tend to give
> myself a frontal lobotomy whenever I have seen a bad film, so therefore
> they don't stick in my mind.
>
> Some of my faves:
>
> The Thing - John Carpenters version (although the original is still very
> good)
> Seven Samurai - Kurasawa knew how 3 hours in a war should be presented
> to the viewer - EMMERICH take note
> Die Hard - Other action films have been big, but this will always be the
> daddy
> Heat - It's hard to try and not praise this film too
> The Jerk - Steve Martin - as  a white-blackman - a MASTERPIECE
> The Exorcist - still the best horror film in the world
> Alien - The Second best horror film in the world
> Smoke & Blue in the face - Wayne Wangs' irreverant yet totally absorbing
> pair of films
> Manhattan - Woody and Gershwin - wow!
> Dr Strangelove - bitingly satirical
> First Blood - have any of you watched it recently, it is close to
> becoming a classic
> Swingers - it is SO the money
> Pulp Fiction - an obvious choice - but it is great
> Kind hearts and Coronets - Ealing comedy at it's finest
> Hobsons Choice - John Mills is wonderful in this film
> Hudson Hawk - I don't know why, but I just love it!
>
> This is by no-means a definitive list of my favourite movies, moreso
> just what I like today, right now, ask me again in 5 minutes and my
> choices will have changed
>
> MARK
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dexter Sy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: 21 July 2000 04:33
> > To:   [e-mail]
> > Subject:      Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4
> >
> > Nice. I agree with your picks.
> >
> > Dexter
> >
> > Wade S wrote:
> >
> > > Other than Armageddon..... films I hate more than ID 4.
> > >
> > > Kazaam
> > > Baby Geniuses
> > > Sphere
> > > Meet Joe Black
> > > Reindeer Games
> > > Lawnmower Man 2
> > > Wyatt Earp
> > > Speed 2
> > > Batman & Robin
> > > Dr. Jekyl & Ms. Hyde
> > > For Richer or Poorer
> > >
> > > Wade
> > >
> > > >From: "geeg23" <[e-mail]>
> > > >Reply-To: [e-mail]
> > > >To: <[e-mail]>
> > > >Subject: Re: [MV] Patriot - lite
> > > >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:49:30 +0100
> > > >
> > > >ID 4 is atrocious.  It is a very poor excuse for a sci-fi film and
> > lacks
> > > >any
> > > >of the edge that the science fiction films of the 50's had that it
> > so badly
> > > >tries to copy.  Emmerich is one of the worst directors around who
> > makes
> > > >films without plots...........or to be more precise, the plots are
> > > >simplistic and filled with unlikely coincidences.  Anyone who
> > considers ID4
> > > >good sci fi has never seen much to be a good judge of what good
> > sci-fi is.
> > > >The only film worse than ID4 in the 90's is "Armageddon".  Dont get
> > me
> > > >started on that!!!!!!!
> > > >
> > > >Gerry T.
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
> > > >To: <[e-mail]>
> > > >Sent: 20 July 2000 19:23
> > > >Subject: Re: [MV] Patriot - lite
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > (refer to conversation below to know what i'm responding to)
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I think ID-4 is a great film.  It is certainly one of the
> > great
> > > >sci-fi
> > > > > films of the 90s.  It was one of the first summer blockbuster
> > films that
> > > >jarred
> > > > > me psychologically.   Sci-fi hadn't don't what ID-4 did in a
> > long time.
> > > > > Basically watching the monuments to our civilization demolished
> > has that
> > > >effect
> > > > > on people, and it strikes at the core of our human existence.
> > It is the
> > > >same
> > > > > reason invading armies in the past burn entire villages and
> > towns...
> > > >basically to
> > > > > demoralize the population.  It is a very real human instinct.
> > Now,
> > > >that
> > > >has
> > > > > been largely forgotten since subsequent films like Deep Impact
> > or
> > > >Armageddon have
> > > > > done the same.
> > > > >
> > > > > Devlin/Emmerich are very much students of the Star Wars trilogy
> > and the
> > > >battles
> > > > > have the same feel.   Waching the fighters go up against the
> > shielded
> > > >mother
> > > > > ships was emotional.  It has the feeling that our best
> > technologies
> > > >failing us,
> > > > > we are helpless, not even nukes can kill them.   It has the same
> > kind of
> > > >feeling
> > > > > when people first saw X-Wings  flying down into that DeathStar
> > trench to
> > > >blow up
> > > > > the death star.  THe feeling of fighting against increadible
> > odds.
> > > >Again,
> > > >not
> > > > > totally original but it is very much inherent in American
> > cinema.  While
> > > >Lucas
> > > > > viewed hollywood as the Empire and hence the Death Star, I doubt
> > > >Devlin/Emmerich
> > > > > had the same ulterior meaning to their aliens.  They were
> > following the
> > > >formula
> > > > > Lucas created.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dex
> > > > >
> > > > > [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In a message dated 07/20/2000 10:54:30 AM Pacific Daylight
> > Time,
> > > > > > [e-mail] writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > << The
> > > > > >  characters might as well be replaced with aliens and it would
> > > >probably
> > > >make
> > > > > >  a nice sequel to independence day.  But for all its flaws I
> > find the
> > > > > >  patriotic bravado... nice.   I'm sorry if I'm stepping on
> > people's
> > > >toes
> > > >here
> > > > > >  but I'm the kind of sucker who likes this kind of stuff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Dex >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I do agree about the flaws, but it was entertaining.  One
> > question,
> > > >how
> > > >can
> > > > > > this film possibly be compared to Independence Day?  That was
> > pure
> > > >crap,
> > > > > > among my least favorite movies of all time with stinkers like
> > Twister,
> > > >House
> > > > > > Arrest, and Rock-A-Doodle.  The Patriot was way above any of
> > those.
> > > > > > -Eric-
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message
> > "unsubscribe ]
> > > > > > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]
> > ]
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dexter S.
> > > > > Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
> > > > > Http://www.tendobox.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message
> > "unsubscribe ]
> > > > > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]
> > ]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> > > >[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and
> > I'm not
> > > so sure about the first one."
> > >                     --Albert Einstein
> > >
> > > "I don't kill flies but I like to mess with their minds. I hold them
> > above
> > > globes. They freak out and yell, 'Whoa, I'm way too high!'"
> > >               --Bruce Baum
> > >
> > >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > __
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> > > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]
> >
> > --
> > Dexter S.
> > Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
> > Http://www.tendobox.com
> >
> >
> >
> > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

- --
Dexter S.
Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
Http://www.tendobox.com



[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:58:52 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: [MV] OOOOOh, Star Wars debate

The thing is, so many science fiction film fail so miserably at making pretend
the technology they are using are in fact stuff of everyday life.  People do
agree Star Wars looks good compared to other sci-fi films. Star Trek is most
atrocious for that, but then agian, their focus have always somewhere else.

I've said it once and I'll say it again, Star Wars isn't science fiction.
Because instead of spending 2 hours showing you how suspended animation works,
the films spend 2 hours telling the story of a family.  The Star Wars films
could be set in medieval Japan and it would be a great Samurai film.   That's
the difference.

Dexter



geeg23 wrote:

> What on earth was that post (see below) about?  Of course Luke Skywalker has
> to "pretend" that things like a landspeeder are the norm.  If it is that
> days equivalent of a car and not a "new" invention why would he be staring
> at it and asking for an explanation how it works?  I dont recall any scenes
> in, say, alien when they ask how the suspended animation works!  The films
> that employ explanations are ones set now and are introducing new concepts.
> If you stumbled into someones house today, and saw they had a time machine,
> I think you would question how it works not just accept it.
> And as for getting spiritual life improving messages from "Star
> wars"...............I find that a little sad.  Why can't people accept Star
> Wars as what it is.........a mediocre sci fi fantasy tale that hit the
> screens at the right time.  Groundbreaking yes, brilliant-no!


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:00:28 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Patriot - the british

MARK wrote:

> He wasn't a villain, he was an officer in an opposing army.  Then Mel
> and his kin mercilessly slaughter him.
>
> MARK

Well, I had fun watching the film is all i have to say.   And like I said,
the British were caricatures in the film. I'm taking your side actually.

Dexter


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:04:57 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: WHaaatttt????

>  Why can't people accept Star
> Wars as what it is.........a mediocre sci fi fantasy tale that hit the
> screens at the right time.  Groundbreaking yes, brilliant-no!

The same can be said for Citizen Kane.   Hindsight is not always 20/20 and its
pretty obvious you think very highly of the films, which is fine, but to try to
re-write history and cliam star wars was just lucky is really revisionist
nonesense.
what may seem so obvious to us was probably never obvious to the people back
then.  Remember your first encounter with multiplication? Same idea.   Before it
hits, you don't get it. After you get it, it becomes easy and you'd wonder why
you didn't think of it earlier.

Dexter


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:17:09 +0100
From: MARK <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [MV] Patriot - the british

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Dexter Sy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    21 July 2000 11:00
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: [MV] Patriot - the british
>
>
>
> MARK wrote:
>
> > He wasn't a villain, he was an officer in an opposing army.  Then
> Mel
> > and his kin mercilessly slaughter him.
> >
> > MARK
>
> Well, I had fun watching the film is all i have to say.   And like I
> said,
> the British were caricatures in the film. I'm taking your side
> actually.
>
> Dexter
>
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:18:50 +0100
From: MARK <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like

Hold on, in Seven Samurai the villagers battle to save their village
from the invading bandits - it's a mini-war against an army.
Irrespective of the numbers involved, these guys went to war.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Dexter Sy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    21 July 2000 10:55
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
>
> Just a comment on the Seven Samurai.  Its not really a war film, but
> it had
> a big climax in the end.
>
> Dexter
>
> MARK wrote:
>
> > Nah, nah nah, they are all bad films, however my list of stinkers
> are:
> >
> > HIGHLANDER - a detestible pile of cack, why do so many people like
> this
> > film
> > Wild Wild West - There haven't been many that are worse
> > Anna and the King - Just pips The Patriot as being the most boring 3
> > hours of my life
> > Dirty Weekend - Michael Winner should just be shot!
> > The Waterboy - WHY!!!!!!
> > Getting Even With Dad - Mac nearly always destroys a film
> > The out of towners (remake) - Steve Martin is a GOD, however, this
> is a
> > terrible film
> > Summer of Sam - I really wanted to like this film, but it was
> > dis-jointed and badly edited
> > My Favourite Martian - I was flying back from Dubai, there was
> nothing
> > else on  - HONEST!!!!
> > Entrapment - derivative crap - go see the far superior remake of
> "The
> > Thomas Crown Affair" for a good thief movie.
> > The Avengers - Nobody could have actually liked this movie
> >
> > (Shit, I've just noticed that there are 3 Sean Connery films in my
> list
> > - greatest living Scotsman - PAH!!)
> >
> > I realise that this is a fairly recent list of films, but I tend to
> give
> > myself a frontal lobotomy whenever I have seen a bad film, so
> therefore
> > they don't stick in my mind.
> >
> > Some of my faves:
> >
> > The Thing - John Carpenters version (although the original is still
> very
> > good)
> > Seven Samurai - Kurasawa knew how 3 hours in a war should be
> presented
> > to the viewer - EMMERICH take note
> > Die Hard - Other action films have been big, but this will always be
> the
> > daddy
> > Heat - It's hard to try and not praise this film too
> > The Jerk - Steve Martin - as  a white-blackman - a MASTERPIECE
> > The Exorcist - still the best horror film in the world
> > Alien - The Second best horror film in the world
> > Smoke & Blue in the face - Wayne Wangs' irreverant yet totally
> absorbing
> > pair of films
> > Manhattan - Woody and Gershwin - wow!
> > Dr Strangelove - bitingly satirical
> > First Blood - have any of you watched it recently, it is close to
> > becoming a classic
> > Swingers - it is SO the money
> > Pulp Fiction - an obvious choice - but it is great
> > Kind hearts and Coronets - Ealing comedy at it's finest
> > Hobsons Choice - John Mills is wonderful in this film
> > Hudson Hawk - I don't know why, but I just love it!
> >
> > This is by no-means a definitive list of my favourite movies, moreso
> > just what I like today, right now, ask me again in 5 minutes and my
> > choices will have changed
> >
> > MARK
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Dexter Sy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> > > Sent: 21 July 2000 04:33
> > > To:   [e-mail]
> > > Subject:      Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4
> > >
> > > Nice. I agree with your picks.
> > >
> > > Dexter
> > >
> > > Wade S wrote:
> > >
> > > > Other than Armageddon..... films I hate more than ID 4.
> > > >
> > > > Kazaam
> > > > Baby Geniuses
> > > > Sphere
> > > > Meet Joe Black
> > > > Reindeer Games
> > > > Lawnmower Man 2
> > > > Wyatt Earp
> > > > Speed 2
> > > > Batman & Robin
> > > > Dr. Jekyl & Ms. Hyde
> > > > For Richer or Poorer
> > > >
> > > > Wade
> > > >
> > > > >From: "geeg23" <[e-mail]>
> > > > >Reply-To: [e-mail]
> > > > >To: <[e-mail]>
> > > > >Subject: Re: [MV] Patriot - lite
> > > > >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:49:30 +0100
> > > > >
> > > > >ID 4 is atrocious.  It is a very poor excuse for a sci-fi film
> and
> > > lacks
> > > > >any
> > > > >of the edge that the science fiction films of the 50's had that
> it
> > > so badly
> > > > >tries to copy.  Emmerich is one of the worst directors around
> who
> > > makes
> > > > >films without plots...........or to be more precise, the plots
> are
> > > > >simplistic and filled with unlikely coincidences.  Anyone who
> > > considers ID4
> > > > >good sci fi has never seen much to be a good judge of what good
> > > sci-fi is.
> > > > >The only film worse than ID4 in the 90's is "Armageddon".  Dont
> get
> > > me
> > > > >started on that!!!!!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >Gerry T.
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
> > > > >To: <[e-mail]>
> > > > >Sent: 20 July 2000 19:23
> > > > >Subject: Re: [MV] Patriot - lite
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > (refer to conversation below to know what i'm responding to)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I think ID-4 is a great film.  It is certainly one of
> the
> > > great
> > > > >sci-fi
> > > > > > films of the 90s.  It was one of the first summer
> blockbuster
> > > films that
> > > > >jarred
> > > > > > me psychologically.   Sci-fi hadn't don't what ID-4 did in a
> > > long time.
> > > > > > Basically watching the monuments to our civilization
> demolished
> > > has that
> > > > >effect
> > > > > > on people, and it strikes at the core of our human
> existence.
> > > It is the
> > > > >same
> > > > > > reason invading armies in the past burn entire villages and
> > > towns...
> > > > >basically to
> > > > > > demoralize the population.  It is a very real human
> instinct.
> > > Now,
> > > > >that
> > > > >has
> > > > > > been largely forgotten since subsequent films like Deep
> Impact
> > > or
> > > > >Armageddon have
> > > > > > done the same.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Devlin/Emmerich are very much students of the Star Wars
> trilogy
> > > and the
> > > > >battles
> > > > > > have the same feel.   Waching the fighters go up against the
> > > shielded
> > > > >mother
> > > > > > ships was emotional.  It has the feeling that our best
> > > technologies
> > > > >failing us,
> > > > > > we are helpless, not even nukes can kill them.   It has the
> same
> > > kind of
> > > > >feeling
> > > > > > when people first saw X-Wings  flying down into that
> DeathStar
> > > trench to
> > > > >blow up
> > > > > > the death star.  THe feeling of fighting against increadible
> > > odds.
> > > > >Again,
> > > > >not
> > > > > > totally original but it is very much inherent in American
> > > cinema.  While
> > > > >Lucas
> > > > > > viewed hollywood as the Empire and hence the Death Star, I
> doubt
> > > > >Devlin/Emmerich
> > > > > > had the same ulterior meaning to their aliens.  They were
> > > following the
> > > > >formula
> > > > > > Lucas created.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dex
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [e-mail] wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > In a message dated 07/20/2000 10:54:30 AM Pacific Daylight
> > > Time,
> > > > > > > [e-mail] writes:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > << The
> > > > > > >  characters might as well be replaced with aliens and it
> would
> > > > >probably
> > > > >make
> > > > > > >  a nice sequel to independence day.  But for all its flaws
> I
> > > find the
> > > > > > >  patriotic bravado... nice.   I'm sorry if I'm stepping on
> > > people's
> > > > >toes
> > > > >here
> > > > > > >  but I'm the kind of sucker who likes this kind of stuff.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  Dex >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do agree about the flaws, but it was entertaining.  One
> > > question,
> > > > >how
> > > > >can
> > > > > > > this film possibly be compared to Independence Day?  That
> was
> > > pure
> > > > >crap,
> > > > > > > among my least favorite movies of all time with stinkers
> like
> > > Twister,
> > > > >House
> > > > > > > Arrest, and Rock-A-Doodle.  The Patriot was way above any
> of
> > > those.
> > > > > > > -Eric-
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message
> > > "unsubscribe ]
> > > > > > > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]
> > > ]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Dexter S.
> > > > > > Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
> > > > > > Http://www.tendobox.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message
> > > "unsubscribe ]
> > > > > > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]
> > > ]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message
> "unsubscribe ]
> > > > >[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]
> ]
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
> and
> > > I'm not
> > > > so sure about the first one."
> > > >                     --Albert Einstein
> > > >
> > > > "I don't kill flies but I like to mess with their minds. I hold
> them
> > > above
> > > > globes. They freak out and yell, 'Whoa, I'm way too high!'"
> > > >               --Bruce Baum
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > __
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > > http://www.hotmail.com
> > > >
> > > > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message
> "unsubscribe ]
> > > > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]
> ]
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dexter S.
> > > Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
> > > Http://www.tendobox.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe
> ]
> > > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]
> ]
> >
> > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]
>
> --
> Dexter S.
> Tendo Box - Nintendo e-zine
> Http://www.tendobox.com
>
>
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:21:13 +0100
From: MARK <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [MV] Patriot - the british

I'm not defending the british in the film because I am british, rather
I'm just pointing out that the film was very biased - then again I
suppose all war films are.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Dexter Sy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    21 July 2000 11:00
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: [MV] Patriot - the british
>
>
>
> MARK wrote:
>
> > He wasn't a villain, he was an officer in an opposing army.  Then
> Mel
> > and his kin mercilessly slaughter him.
> >
> > MARK
>
> Well, I had fun watching the film is all i have to say.   And like I
> said,
> the British were caricatures in the film. I'm taking your side
> actually.
>
> Dexter
>
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:15:45 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like

MARK wrote:

> Hold on, in Seven Samurai the villagers battle to save their village
> from the invading bandits - it's a mini-war against an army.
> Irrespective of the numbers involved, these guys went to war.

Indeed it is.  But the film spent a great deal of time building up.  Keep in
mind that its 2 tapes and the final battle occured only in the last 2/3 of
tape #2. A lot of film time was spend introducing each Samurai warrior. The
great part is that in the end they work as a team and each Samurai's
specialty is drawn out for everyone to see.  The ending/climax was actually
a prolonged seige and a final 30 or so minutes of intense battle.

Its not a war movie in the way people would envision it.  Its distintly
Japanese in style and pace.   So I'd just classify it as a Samurai film,
which will probably give people a better idea of what kind of scope is
involved. And  Seven Samurai by no means is epic in its battles, especially
compared against Kurosawa's later work, Kagemusha, which would fit more
closely with the "war film" tag.

Dexter


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:19:18 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Patriot - the british

MARK wrote:

> I'm not defending the british in the film because I am british, rather
> I'm just pointing out that the film was very biased - then again I
> suppose all war films are.

Yep.  How'd you think the Germans felt with Ryan when Spielberg showed SS
troops and hitler youth being shot execution style even after
surrendering. War is personal thing so films about war tend to become
extremely biased.   I think one of the better ones was Tora Tora Tora!
Which ended with Admiral Yamamoto warning his comrades of America's might
and waking the "sleeping giant" something he actually did say.  It was
bittersweet as the Americans get kicked in Pearl Harbor, but we also know
the ultimate course of the war.  And the film was made with Japanese
co-operation, hence some really authentic WW2 warships were used.

BTW, anybody find the Pagoda like superstructures of the Japanese
Battleships cool?  They look way cooler than the American class ships.

Dexter

MARK wrote:

> I'm not defending the british in the film because I am british, rather
> I'm just pointing out that the film was very biased - then again I
> suppose all war films are.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dexter Sy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: 21 July 2000 11:00
> > To:   [e-mail]
> > Subject:      Re: [MV] Patriot - the british
> >
> >
> >
> > MARK wrote:
> >
> > > He wasn't a villain, he was an officer in an opposing army.  Then
> > Mel
> > > and his kin mercilessly slaughter him.
> > >
> > > MARK
> >
> > Well, I had fun watching the film is all i have to say.   And like I
> > said,
> > the British were caricatures in the film. I'm taking your side
> > actually.
> >
> > Dexter
> >
> >
> > [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> > [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:42:35 +0100
From: MARK <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like

Get it on dvd, only 1 disc - plus a minor documentary from the BFI
(british film institute).

I would not classify it as a Samurai film, Samurai where the fighting
class in Japan, and the only class allowed to carry edged weapons.
(hence the development of such blunt fighting tools as escrima,
nunchukas etc, from farming equipment).  Samurai were generally employed
by a master, and therefore not free to roam and fight at will.  A
master-less Samurai was called Ronin, he wandered the country and payed
his way by "freelancing".  Therefore, to be technically correct it is a
Ronin film - however, other than the sub-standard Robert De-Niro flick,
most people wouldn't understand the word Ronin.

Obviously, Seven Samurai was remade into The Magnificent Seven, now you
wouldn't call that a Samurai movie would you.  Rather a Mercenary Movie,
and what are mercenaries?  Independent soldiers who are brought into
fight a war on the side of the side that pays the highest.

A war film does not have to have numerous battles to be classified as a
war film (look at Ice Cold in Alex), rather it has to take place in a
time of conflict - which Seven Samurai obviously does.

MARK

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Dexter Sy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    21 July 2000 11:16
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
>
>
>
> MARK wrote:
>
> > Hold on, in Seven Samurai the villagers battle to save their village
> > from the invading bandits - it's a mini-war against an army.
> > Irrespective of the numbers involved, these guys went to war.
>
> Indeed it is.  But the film spent a great deal of time building up.
> Keep in
> mind that its 2 tapes and the final battle occured only in the last
> 2/3 of
> tape #2. A lot of film time was spend introducing each Samurai
> warrior. The
> great part is that in the end they work as a team and each Samurai's
> specialty is drawn out for everyone to see.  The ending/climax was
> actually
> a prolonged seige and a final 30 or so minutes of intense battle.
>
> Its not a war movie in the way people would envision it.  Its
> distintly
> Japanese in style and pace.   So I'd just classify it as a Samurai
> film,
> which will probably give people a better idea of what kind of scope is
> involved. And  Seven Samurai by no means is epic in its battles,
> especially
> compared against Kurosawa's later work, Kagemusha, which would fit
> more
> closely with the "war film" tag.
>
> Dexter
>
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 03:42:21 -0700
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like

MARK wrote:

> Get it on dvd, only 1 disc - plus a minor documentary from the BFI
> (british film institute).

Yes yes.  I am seeking it out as we speak. :)

>
>
> I would not classify it as a Samurai film, Samurai where the fighting
> class in Japan, and the only class allowed to carry edged weapons.
> (hence the development of such blunt fighting tools as escrima,
> nunchukas etc, from farming equipment).  Samurai were generally employed
> by a master, and therefore not free to roam and fight at will.  A
> master-less Samurai was called Ronin, he wandered the country and payed
> his way by "freelancing".  Therefore, to be technically correct it is a
> Ronin film - however, other than the sub-standard Robert De-Niro flick,
> most people wouldn't understand the word Ronin.

Yeppers.  Very true.   But I think Ronins are still Samurai's in terms of
classification. They have all the perks of a Samuria, including the right to
carry a sword.     The film also alluded to a former master which had been
defeated and his fiefdom taken over (am I right?)  so I think  there's also
a sense of honor there.

>
>
> Obviously, Seven Samurai was remade into The Magnificent Seven, now you
> wouldn't call that a Samurai movie would you.  Rather a Mercenary Movie,
> and what are mercenaries?  Independent soldiers who are brought into
> fight a war on the side of the side that pays the highest.
>
> A war film does not have to have numerous battles to be classified as a
> war film (look at Ice Cold in Alex), rather it has to take place in a
> time of conflict - which Seven Samurai obviously does.

good point.  Ok, you make a  really good point.

BTW,  Kagemusha is a nice Kurosawa film in that it introduced historical
figures.  I've always been a great admirer of Oda Nobunaga and his ally and
protogΘ Tokugawa Ieyasu.  They both appeared in the film as the villians,
but hey, it was cool! :)

Dex


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:15:42 +0100
From: MARK <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like

Yep, you are right, there is a sense of honour there also.

I've not seen Kagemusha, nor Ran - neither have I seen Forbidden
Fortress which I believe Star Wars took the story from.  Some serious
homework here for me.


> -----Original Message-----
> From:    Dexter Sy [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    21 July 2000 11:42
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: [MV] Films I hate more than ID 4 - and some I like
>=20
>=20
>=20
> MARK wrote:
>=20
> > Get it on dvd, only 1 disc - plus a minor documentary from the BFI
> > (british film institute).
>=20
> Yes yes.  I am seeking it out as we speak. :)
>=20
> >
> >
> > I would not classify it as a Samurai film, Samurai where the
> fighting
> > class in Japan, and the only class allowed to carry edged weapons.
> > (hence the development of such blunt fighting tools as escrima,
> > nunchukas etc, from farming equipment).  Samurai were generally
> employed
> > by a master, and therefore not free to roam and fight at will.  A
> > master-less Samurai was called Ronin, he wandered the country and
> payed
> > his way by "freelancing".  Therefore, to be technically correct it
> is a
> > Ronin film - however, other than the sub-standard Robert De-Niro
> flick,
> > most people wouldn't understand the word Ronin.
>=20
> Yeppers.  Very true.   But I think Ronins are still Samurai's in =
terms
> of
> classification. They have all the perks of a Samuria, including the
> right to
> carry a sword.     The film also alluded to a former master which had
> been
> defeated and his fiefdom taken over (am I right?)  so I think  =
there's
> also
> a sense of honor there.
>=20
> >
> >
> > Obviously, Seven Samurai was remade into The Magnificent Seven, now
> you
> > wouldn't call that a Samurai movie would you.  Rather a Mercenary
> Movie,
> > and what are mercenaries?  Independent soldiers who are brought =
into
> > fight a war on the side of the side that pays the highest.
> >
> > A war film does not have to have numerous battles to be classified
> as a
> > war film (look at Ice Cold in Alex), rather it has to take place in
> a
> > time of conflict - which Seven Samurai obviously does.
>=20
> good point.  Ok, you make a  really good point.
>=20
> BTW,  Kagemusha is a nice Kurosawa film in that it introduced
> historical
> figures.  I've always been a great admirer of Oda Nobunaga and his
> ally and
> protog=E9 Tokugawa Ieyasu.  They both appeared in the film as the
> villians,
> but hey, it was cool! :)
>=20
> Dex
>=20
>=20
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:00:38 +0100
From: "geeg23" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] OOOOOh, Star Wars debate

I am sorry, but could you please tell me the name of a film, set in the
future, in which they come across (what is to them) normal technology, and
start going in to detail as to why it works?  I can't think of any!

Gerry T.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: 21 July 2000 10:58
Subject: [MV] OOOOOh, Star Wars debate


> The thing is, so many science fiction film fail so miserably at making
pretend
> the technology they are using are in fact stuff of everyday life.  People
do
> agree Star Wars looks good compared to other sci-fi films. Star Trek is
most
> atrocious for that, but then agian, their focus have always somewhere
else.
>
> I've said it once and I'll say it again, Star Wars isn't science fiction.
> Because instead of spending 2 hours showing you how suspended animation
works,
> the films spend 2 hours telling the story of a family.  The Star Wars
films
> could be set in medieval Japan and it would be a great Samurai film.
That's
> the difference.
>
> Dexter
>
>
>
> geeg23 wrote:
>
> > What on earth was that post (see below) about?  Of course Luke Skywalker
has
> > to "pretend" that things like a landspeeder are the norm.  If it is that
> > days equivalent of a car and not a "new" invention why would he be
staring
> > at it and asking for an explanation how it works?  I dont recall any
scenes
> > in, say, alien when they ask how the suspended animation works!  The
films
> > that employ explanations are ones set now and are introducing new
concepts.
> > If you stumbled into someones house today, and saw they had a time
machine,
> > I think you would question how it works not just accept it.
> > And as for getting spiritual life improving messages from "Star
> > wars"...............I find that a little sad.  Why can't people accept
Star
> > Wars as what it is.........a mediocre sci fi fantasy tale that hit the
> > screens at the right time.  Groundbreaking yes, brilliant-no!
>
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]
>



[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:07:29 +0100
From: "geeg23" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: WHaaatttt????

Actually I don't think Star Wars is good at all, I am currently having the
misfortune of sitting through nearly all four because my young son likes
them.  I fail to understand your point below as Star Wars was definetely a
film of it's time.  It was groundbreaking for the day and Science Fiction
had not been potrayed in this big budget way towards a large audience.
Watching the first (or to be more precise 4th) film again I am stunned at
how inept it all is, and for all it's faults (and there are hundreds!) Darth
Maul actually comes across as a better villain than Darth Vader who actually
looks a little inept lumbering around in his big helmet!  I just fail to see
what all the fuss is.  Yes, in 77 (when I was 9) I was
hooked...................but time has past, I have seen a lot more (and
better) films and the thrill has gone.  I can assure you, after multiple
watchings, Pee Wee's big adventure is far more watchable than Star wars.

Gerry T.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Dexter Sy <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: 21 July 2000 11:04
Subject: Re: [MV] Re: WHaaatttt????


> >  Why can't people accept Star
> > Wars as what it is.........a mediocre sci fi fantasy tale that hit the
> > screens at the right time.  Groundbreaking yes, brilliant-no!
>
> The same can be said for Citizen Kane.   Hindsight is not always 20/20 and
its
> pretty obvious you think very highly of the films, which is fine, but to
try to
> re-write history and cliam star wars was just lucky is really revisionist
> nonesense.
> what may seem so obvious to us was probably never obvious to the people
back
> then.  Remember your first encounter with multiplication? Same idea.
Before it
> hits, you don't get it. After you get it, it becomes easy and you'd wonder
why
> you didn't think of it earlier.
>
> Dexter
>
>
> [ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
> [ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]
>


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:23:03 +0100
From: Garrett Winters <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] RE: I don't wanna sound elitist

on 17/7/2000 17:55, ("Paul D  Richardson") at [e-mail]
wrote:

>
> I do agree on one thing, however: these "zaplet polls" or whatever they are
> need to go.  Ditto the posts that do nothing more than promote a website.
> However, I will support any on-topic discussion, even if the content does not
> interest me.


I so agree the zaplets are mighty annoying as one thing I like about most
mailing lists is their strict adherence to plaintext as not everyone in the
world has the best system and best connection.
Garrett


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:33:54 +0100
From: Garrett Winters <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [MV] RE: I don't wanna sound elitist

on 18/7/2000 16:20, David F. Nolan at [e-mail] wrote:

> I liked Jarmusch's "Mystery Train," but thought that "Ghost Dog" was just
> too weird and introspective. Those are the only two I've seen.

really I loved Ghost Dog for those very same reasons. it was surreal and
worth subsequent viewings. lot's of subtle undertones and good
characterisations make up for what might become a cult favorite.
I'll have to hunt down this "mystery train" just to see if his work is
derivative or truly original.
Garrett


[ To leave the movies mailing list, send the message "unsubscribe ]
[ movies" (without the quotes) to [e-mail]          ]

------------------------------

End of movies-digest V2 #278
****************************

[ To quit the movies-digest mailing list (big mistake), send the message     ]
[ "unsubscribe movies-digest" (without the quotes) to [e-mail] ]