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klr650-digest         Tuesday, October 6 1998         Volume 01 : Number 287




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Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 16:43:36 -0700
From: Mike Magier <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (klr650) Re: air in forks - some chemistry

Jeff -
Forgive my unabashed geekiness, especially as this technicality in no way
detracts from the truth and logic of your fork air discussion. However, I
feel compelled to re-state the equation you describe (Ibelieve it's called
the ideal gas law).

PV = nRT

Where:
P = pressure (torr)
V = Volume (liters)
n = number of "moles" of gas in system (basically how many gas particles are
exerting that Pressure)
R is the "ideal gas constant", and
T = Temperature (Celsius or Kelvin - can't remember!)

Since R is constant, and (for any given fork setup) n is constant, we can
remove them from the equation and say

PV :: T  (PV is proportional to T).
This tells us that as the fork air warms up (T increases),  P or V (or both)
must also increase. That is, the gas will expand, forcing the fork to be
less compressed, or the internal air pressure will increase (thus giving the
"stiffer" response).

If we add gas to the system, that means we are icreasing "n".

PV :: nT

Obviously, this would also force P and/or V to increase.

Don't know if this helps anyone or not, but I was so amazed that I ever
remembered any of it that I just had to add my $.02.

Mike Magier
98A12
- ----------
>
>The purpose of the air valves at the top of the forks is to let air OUT,
not
>to put air in. If you are riding hard off road, the oil and air will heat
up
>and that will increase pressure in the forks. I refer you to the (P*V)/T =
>(P*V)/T foumula we all learned in freshman chemistry. The volume inside the
>forks remains constant, so we can remove it from the equation. P/T = P/T
What
>this all means is that if the temperature goes up, the pressure goes up,
and
>the forks stiffen up. As the forks cool down, the fork seals will leak
enough
>air back in to equalize the pressure.
>Jeff - A12

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 20:16:10 -0400
From: Dave Wormmeester <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (klr650) KLR vs Street bikes, who wins

> Take two equal riders, one on a KLR and the other on a jap 600 sport bike and
> the sport bike will always be the faster of the bikes in any paved road
> condition.  The KLR will win only where it's design capablilites outweigh
> those of the sport bike.  Nuff said by me

  I do not agree with you on this part.  Most would go faster on the KLR
not because it is the better bike, but because it is easier to ride.  The
sharper the corner and bumpier the pavement, the more you would
find this to be true.
Dave W.
KLR 650
ZX-10

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:18:13 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (klr650) Re: klr650-digest V1 #286

In a message dated 10/6/98 2:52:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-
[e-mail] writes:

> Kawasaki is contradictory on the subject. The manual states that the forks
>  should run at atmospheric but in the KLR650 page and the spec page on
>  www.kawasaki.com they say they are air adjustable. I have included both
>  pages as attachments. My Bultaco actually had ball and spring pressure
>  relief valves on the forks that I took out when installing the valve stems.
>  The Bulls forks worked fine and leaked no worse than they did before the
>  modification. I wouldn't reccomend doing this with a motocross bike but the
>  KLRs forks generally don't get worked as hard as a motocrossers.
>                            Alan Henderson
>
During my 30+ years of riding and maintaining motorcycles I have tried a lot
of things. The air in the forks is a very old idea. I wouldn't be too
concerned about the seals leaking. If they leak, they were going to anyway.
Due to the design of the seals, the higher the air pressure the tighter they
seal against the fork tube. This results in additional drag due to stiction of
the seal. The pressures the seal normally see are extremely high. As the air
trapped in the fork is compressed the pressure doubled each time the volume is
cut in half. By the time the fork bottoms the pressure can be exterme. I ran
an old Suzuki TS250 with no spring at all, just air pressure. The air was much
better than the springs (much more progressive) and resulted in no bottoming (
6" of travel). I currently run 3-5 psi of air over the stock springs due to my
excessive weight (+-320lbs.). This works much better than stock without air.
I'm sure that Progressive springs would be even better. The only problem with
the stock air valves is getting the pressures set right and equal in each leg.
I use a pressure gauge for an ATV. The ballon tires run low pressures so the
guage is accurate in the 1-8 psi range. A crossover tube would be better. I
have had no problems with the air in my forks.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 20:16:10 -0400
From: Dave Wormmeester <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (klr650) KLR vs Street bikes, who wins

> Take two equal riders, one on a KLR and the other on a jap 600 sport bike and
> the sport bike will always be the faster of the bikes in any paved road
> condition.  The KLR will win only where it's design capablilites outweigh
> those of the sport bike.  Nuff said by me

  I do not agree with you on this part.  Most would go faster on the KLR
not because it is the better bike, but because it is easier to ride.  The
sharper the corner and bumpier the pavement, the more you would
find this to be true.
Dave W.
KLR 650
ZX-10

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:29:21 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (klr650) Shop manual

Can anyone tell me where I can buy a shop manual and about how much they are?

Thanks,

Doug.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:47:25 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (klr650) [NKLR] Gino's KTM

In a message dated 98-10-06 15:07:53 EDT, [e-mail] writes:

<< I guess w/ KTM's upcoming merger w/ Harley, Gino will get to share
 service line space w/ the H.O.G.'s? Just don't expect them wave...? >>

I went to the local Harley dealer to see if I could find leather motocross
body armour and a motocross half helmet in flat black, but they had neither
;-)

Gino

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:51:02 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: (klr650) Vroom, vroom

Well, I have rode the KLR to work and then some, for a couple days now with
the jet kit.  What a difference.  Bike runs great, but I think I will pay the
price at the gas pump.  For the record, I have the Dyno Jet 140 main jet, the
clip in the middle notch on the needle, the mixture screw turned out 2.25
turns and the float set to spec.  I have a K&N Filter and a Laser Produro
Exhaust.

Gino

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 21:07:11 -0500
From: Alan Henderson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (klr650) tires for snow

At 09:40 AM 10/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>        Hi Allan;
>
>        Sorry .. it is gotta be "a quick" reply ..  but I can be more
specific
>        if You want me .. ;-) (want us me & Mariola- my girlfriend)
>        We just put MT21 on two KLR's .. and:-----------
>
>        10.---- IF YOU WANT A GOOD TIRE FOR WET PAVEMENT -- TALK TO FRED
>> BUT
>IN MY OPINION >> GO FOR GRIPSTERS >> AT LEAST WE ARE ;-)))))
>
>        sorry do not know sizes . .. can check once got back home ;-)
>
>        Kris&Mariola
>        2xKLR650 Chicago
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>  I am thinking of putting a set of Pirrelli MT21s on my 99 for the winter.
>Any one have any experience or know what size will fit.
>                                              Alan Henderson
>
How would Gripsters do in snow? I plan to ride my KLR most of the winter
except when it is too icy. I would think full knobs would be better in Iowa
snow than the OEM Dunlops or the Gripsters. Anybody have any experience?
    Thanks Alan Henderson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:06:26 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: (klr650) List (NKLR Subject)

I offer this post with some risk.  I want to be respectful (that's the
way I am) but I must add my few words about the posts that abuse the
"male" tendency to use poor language (of course, that's a choice) or
gross "jokes" such as racial, ethnic, etc. Most of us are on the list for
the exchange of information and the words used during that are important.
  All I want is for listers to consider their "modern" language.  I mean
to step on no toes nor arouse criticism in anyone; I just appeal to
decency.  If you don't like this message, please forget it.  You do have
your choice and right.  Thanks.
 -Ves  A12

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 19:19:49 PDT
From: "Juan Villarreal" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (klr650) Re: (NKLR) Nasty Notes from the list.

Ron wrote:

>Ouch!!
>maybe you have every right to say what you did, but not by what was
>attached, in my opinion.  I just had to say something because if we
>start to feel like we can't write things without being taken to the
>cleaners, then we destroy the concept of what we're doing.  Let's get
>back to the important things, like RIDING and improving our KLR's.

Ron,
     My therapist is in full agreement, although I don't know if I'll be
able to recall the Bolivian death squad...

Juan Villarreal, '97 KLR
"El Lobo Solo"

P.S.  Was joking about the therapist, will keep you guessing with
regards to the death squad.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 21:37:08 -0500
From: Alan Henderson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (klr650) tires for snow

>>How would Gripsters do in snow? I plan to ride my KLR most of the winter
>>except when it is too icy. I would think full knobs would be better in Iowa
>>snow than the OEM Dunlops or the Gripsters. Anybody have any experience?
>>    Thanks Alan Henderson
>
>
>Alan,
>
>I use the Pirelli MT21s all the time not just for winter.  I like tires that
>are aggressive and don't mind if they wear out a little faster than some of
>the rest.  Grip is more important than tire life to me.  The sizes you want
>would be 130/90x17 for the rear and 90/90x21 for the front.
>
>Fred
>
Thanks for the prompt reply! Those are the sizes that I figured would fit
but wanted some confirmation before I ordered them and they would be to
wide to fit the swing arm or something. I have used Pirelli MT16s on my old
Bultaco and liked them quite a bit. Didn't do as much street riding as I do
now but they did fine as long as you respected the limitations of full
knobs on pavement.                            Alan Henderson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:05:35 -0500
From: "Jim Sprecker" <[e-mail]>
Subject: (klr650) Foul words....

Does weanies and wantabees classify as inappropriate and not politically
correct??
Jim ('K'ills 'L'ittle 'R'abbits)
- -----------------------------------------------
>    [e-mail]     <
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:53:42 -0500
From: Steve Rottenberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (klr650) Re: air in forks

Hi,
    I've known and I've read that we should not put any air to the
forks. I've had my KLR for 3 years and over 25k miles blah, blah, blah and
I've had 4 lbs of air for the last two years.
    Just go to your friendly Kawasaki dealer and talk to your favorite
monkey (I mean ... mechanic) and tell him/her to ad 4lbs of air .. they've
got a little pump with a hose and a gauge  that hooks up to the nipple and
it doesn't deflate when you are disconecting it.
    I visited a lot of HD dealers around FL (Working reasons) for 3
years and I saw the little pump for sale, I believe "Progressive" sells it
for around $40. The jap dealers also have to have it. But I've seen it for
sure at the Hog Shops.

Steve in Tampa
98 B12
95 KLR  650

PS: Sorry if this subject had been discussed/answered already, it's tuesday
nite and I was just able to sit in front of my Mac and keep up with my
mailing lists.


>> The manual specifies atmospheric pressure and that's what I run. The only
>> concern that I have with adding a pound or two is that the front fork

Steve Rottenberg
Tuca en IRC (Undernet)
Email: [e-mail]
Don't take life so seriously ... it's not  permanent.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:11:45 -0500
From: Steve Rottenberg <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (klr650) Sportbike vs KLR

Carlos,
    I've had the KLR for 3 years and I believe I've gotten to know her.
I can do some stupid little tricks on the KLR that I's never even think of
doing in my B12.
Basic comparision between both bikes.

1- My KLR was my first bike
2- FL, as some of you might know is pretty much straight. You go north,
turn around and go south. Not many twisties and hills and places to really
take advantage of the KLR's abilities
3- I was very happy and VERY used to the KLR's handling and power, brakes et c.

Lets go to the bandit 12
1- You think of going fast, and the bike launches forward.
2- You think of stopping, and put ONE finger on the front lever and the
beast stops
3- riding position. more crotch rocket like but still pretty vertical.

Today I took the KLR to work instead of the B12. At first it seemed
strange. I've got to get used to the brakes on the KLR since they've got no
comparision with the B12's dual floating disk with 4 piston Nissin Calipers.
The one time I went twistie riding, I was with a bunch of guys from the
local dealership, They were mostly VFR's and CBR's and GSX's and all crotch
rockets. The guy's riding them were wearing full leathers, sport riding
boots and "worn" knee pads. So you pretty much have an idea that they were
experienced.
We rode some road's i'd never seen before. All in the middle of nowhere,
and I kept up with the firt 10 bikes (out of 70) all day long. Right in
front of me there was a guy with a CBR900R and when we stopped for lunch,
he came to shake my hand, because he couldn't believe how I was riding his
ass on every turn. Of course he got away on the straight roads, but he told
me he was expecting hearing my downshifts (Supertrapp Old version) in every
turn and kept telling himself "It can't be possible"
Other riders told that when they saw the KLR at the gathering in the
morning, they thought I was gonna be riding in the back with the old farts.
So I guess I left a couple of people pretty impressed with the capabilities
of the KLR.

Steve in Tampa
98 B12
95 KLR 650

PS Carlos, If you want to, call me at my office [phone] or email me
a phone # at [e-mail] and I can explain myself better on the
phone. This "gringo" languaje is driving me "nutz"


>>The reason I'm asking is because I am considering parting with a couple of
>>grand for a nice used EX500 (I know, not exactly a high tech sportbike),
>>and I've read various articles describing dual sports as being just as or
>>more capable than sportbikes (in general) in the twisties. Do any of you
>>have first hand experience?  What about Steve R. in Florida, how does your
>>new Bandit compare? Comments?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Carlos
>>
>>


Steve Rottenberg
Tuca en IRC (Undernet)
Email: [e-mail]
Don't take life so seriously ... it's not  permanent.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 22:29:16 -0500
From: Alan Henderson <[e-mail]>
Subject: (klr650) (KLR650) kick starter kit

I was looking in the kawasaki accessory catalog at the dealers and noticed
a kick starter kit for the KLR. Anyone have any experience with one. Makes
me just a bit nervous to not have a kick starter, old fashioned I guess.
Alan Henderson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:46:37 -0700
From: "Rob  Clement" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: (klr650) Shop manual

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 6:35 PM
Subject: (klr650) Shop manual


>Can anyone tell me where I can buy a shop manual and about how much they
are?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Doug.
>
>
Doug, I tried to find another publisher's manual, and the Kawa. manuals were
all I could find.  My dealer had one, and ordered the other.  One, the
"base" manual, was almost $40, and it covers the old KLR600; the other, the
"supplement" manual (for my '98 A12), covers all the changes made since
then, and it was a little over $20.

These aren't particularly good manuals from my standpoint, since I like to
learn something about the qualities of the bike and the marketing and
engineering rationales for the way it's made, the design, and the materials
(like some other manuals give).

The Kwaka manuals cover only the barebones "remove and replace" steps, and
some specifications/torque settings, and some very brief comments and
specifications about jetting for high altitudes.

Unfortunately, there are some cautions about modifying the bike for racing,
and lots of aggravating reminders about keeping hands on handlebars at all
times, adhering to speed laws, being cautious with flammable liquids,
replacing, modifying, altering, or having impure thoughts about your
wonderful stock muffler, airbox, carb, and smog equipment.

They're competent, basic, and boring.  So if you learn of another KLR650
manual, one I might enjoy reading, please let me know!

Rob C.

------------------------------

End of klr650-digest V1 #287
****************************