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hist_text-digest      Saturday, January 26 2002      Volume 01 : Number 940



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: "BELL MARE"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Some help needed
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Sign (was Citation for Bell Mare)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Tetons at my back door
-áááááá MtMan-List: Stock Oil
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Stock Oil
-áááááá MtMan-List: Stock Oil
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: California Horse Source
-áááááá =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20Egyptian=20cotton?=
-áááááá =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20Some=20help=20needed?=
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed
-áááááá MtMan-List: Western History Association
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 12 females....
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 12 females....
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare (But brace yourself, bad joke ahead)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association
-áááááá MtMan-List: By request

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:05:35 -0500
From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "BELL MARE"

COMPADRES, I have been following this thread with interest, I will just
mention that in the East during the 1700's through to 1800 the native
Americans used to steal the bell mare and use the bell to bring the
searching owners of the mare into ambush. Many young boys and men on going
out in the morning to find the horses lost their hair.  Any acounts of this
in the west?    DAve Albaugh #1736


AUX ALIMENTS DU PAYS


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:10:09 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed

Linda, As to the Pacific Primitive, contact Ed 'Smitty' Smith, the Booshway
at [phone] or mail to 208 West 9th Avenue, Escondido, California 92025.

Don't know the dates, but if you're planning on attending, the Pacific
Primitive is set for the week following the California Primitive, on the same
property. It would be a GREAT two weeks in one of the most beautiful sites
I've camped on.

I just heard the other day that next year (2003), the California, Pacific and
Western Primitive's have been scheduled back-to-back for a three week
extravaganza ;).

Barney

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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:12:41 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed

Sorry, forgot to mention that the California Primitive is near Kernville, CA,
in June.  Smitty will have the exact info.  Barn

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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 19:33:02 -0500
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed

Wow!!!! that sounds like fun.  I am seriously thinking about going out West again
after an absence of about 12 years.  Want to see what I am missing and meet old
friends.  Would love to meet many of you on this list, and renew a few good hugs
with those from the past.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> Linda, As to the Pacific Primitive, contact Ed 'Smitty' Smith, the Booshway
> at [phone] or mail to 208 West 9th Avenue, Escondido, California 92025.
>
> Don't know the dates, but if you're planning on attending, the Pacific
> Primitive is set for the week following the California Primitive, on the same
> property. It would be a GREAT two weeks in one of the most beautiful sites
> I've camped on.
>
> I just heard the other day that next year (2003), the California, Pacific and
> Western Primitive's have been scheduled back-to-back for a three week
> extravaganza ;).
>
> Barney
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:53:57 -0800
From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Some help needed

Linda,   Here is a website for the Pacific Primitive Rdvs.. I'm planning on
going to it this June 22-30 in Paisley Oregon.
http://eddies.grrtech.com/rendezvous/ppr/Current/  I found it with a google
search for Pacific Primitive rendezvous.    hardtack



> [Original Message]
> From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
 > Date: 1/25/02 2:49:09 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Some help needed
>
> To change the topic a little, I need some information on the 2002 Pacific
Primitive
> Rendezvous and the 2002  Rocky Mountain Primitive Rendezvous.  Does
anyone know
> where and when these events will take place?
>
> Linda Holley
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- --- Randal Bublitz
- --- [e-mail]
we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,
 we are Borrowing it f


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 18:27:59 -0800
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sign (was Citation for Bell Mare)

More often than seeing Indians they would discover "sign." War parties
traveled afoot, usually, so that they would leave less sign to be
discovered by outliers. Like Ned noted, traveling on horses leaves more
obvious sign than a careful, well practiced native afoot would care to
leave. Even so, woodsmen like Bill Williams felt that they had developed
a sixth sense that warned them of danger even in the absence of discrete
sign. I believe that the policy of most aggregated trapping
organizations was to keep grouped up when sign showed natives about. In
strength, noise would not have mattered so much. In the absence of sign,
though, and in freetrapper pairings, silence seems to have been the
order of the day, even to the point of using sign 'sted of talking. I
don't think that I've seen any journal reference to this ... musta
gotten the impression from James Fennimore Cooper? Or maybe Shines
mentioned it ...

BTW, I thought that I had spent lots of time in silence in the shining
mountains. Nope, it took an evening when I had to make a dry camp
outside of Death Valley (I was taking pictures at sunset and it was way
too far to a designated camping area, so I just moseyed up a trail until
it petered out far from anything) to experience real silence. No trees
about, no wind, no water. Not jack. I sat about and watched the stars
come out, and heard the scritch, scritch of a coyote pup on coarse
gravel, coming to check me out. There was nothing out there to hear but
him, and I was amazed at how that minute sound was magnified.

B'st'rd, with nothing of value to add.

Pat Quilter wrote:
>
> {Some snippage}
>
> When you read the old
> journals, it is clear that sometimes they are in "Indian country" and
> sometimes not (or at least, the tribe was thought to be in a different
> region at that time). In any case they could go for weeks without seeing
> any. Of course, these assumptions were periodically punctured by the sight
> of a warrior party, or worse, a sudden raid. We can assume that the more
> cautious parties changed their tactics whenever they believed they might
> encounter hostiles.

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 22:03:19 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tetons at my back door

In a message dated 1/25/02 2:16:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< C,
 Lived here for 25 years now and love it.  You'd be more than welcome, if
you're ever in my neck of the woods, to stay a spell.
 YMHOS, >>

Likewise, if you ever find yourself in upstate SC you can stay a while at our
abode...either in the city house (suburbs) or at the farmhouse (old, a little
rundown and very comforting!!!)  The deer and turkey walk the fenceline
daily!!!

Thanks for the invite!!!

- -C.Kent

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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 22:44:48 -0500
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Oil

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I took the finish off this here GPR stock, took a file to it and started =
rounding everything and am in the midst of sanding.

Just a few questions;

What kind of oil was used in the 1800's on gunstocks?  The stock is a =
very nice black walnut and I would like to darken it a wee bit, but that =
will also come with age.

Did the mountain men really stick brass tacks all over their Hawkens or =
is that just fancy tv?  I can only imagine that the tacks served no =
useful purpose other than to identify ones weapon.

Thanks,

Frank V. Rago

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I took the finish off this here GPR =
stock, took a=20
file to it and started rounding everything and am in the midst of=20
sanding.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just a few questions;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What kind of oil was used in the 1800's =
on=20
gunstocks?  The stock is a very nice black walnut and I would like =
to=20
darken it a wee bit, but that will also come with age.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Did the mountain men really stick brass =
tacks all=20
over their Hawkens or is that just fancy tv?  I can only imagine =
that the=20
tacks served no useful purpose other than to identify ones =
weapon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank V. =
Rago</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1A5F1.E4AB0880--


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Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 05:46:29 +0000
From: "don secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stock Oil

He' Frank,
  The old finishes on original rifles and fowlers were linseed oil based
varnishes. Every gunsmith had a favorite recipe, but basically linseed oil
with various hardeners that were soluble in terpentine. A good hard finish
that I use is a modern varnish. Marine Spar Varnish cut with mineral spirits
so it flows onto the wood without any drag. I brush the first two coats on
and then lightly sand the brush marks out with 400 grit wet and dry. Let it
dry overnight between coats. The last two coats are to even out the finish,
applied very thin with a 1 1/2" square of pillow ticking. When the last coat
dries hard I buff it with cotton duck. This will give you a durable finish
that you can hunt in any kind of weather with and not worry about swelling
the stock. Spar varnish comes in glossy and satin sheen. I use the satin
sheen. It winds up looking like the finish you see on old plains rifles that
still have finish on them. I have a couple of old Muzzle Blasts Mags that
have a part 1 & 2 article on the history of gun finishes. I'll try to find
them if you want to try to locate them for yourself. I hope this helps and
good luck.
Don in the Ohio Country


>From: <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Oil
>Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 22:44:48 -0500
>
>I took the finish off this here GPR stock, took a file to it and started
>rounding everything and am in the midst of sanding.
>
>Just a few questions;
>
>What kind of oil was used in the 1800's on gunstocks?  The stock is a very
>nice black walnut and I would like to darken it a wee bit, but that will
>also come with age.
>
>Did the mountain men really stick brass tacks all over their Hawkens or is
>that just fancy tv?  I can only imagine that the tacks served no useful
>purpose other than to identify ones weapon.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Frank V. Rago




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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 06:46:07 +0000
From: "don secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Oil

Well Frank, I found the old Muzzle Blasts issues and the articles. April and
May of 1984. "Gunstock Finishing: The Real Truth by John Bivins. Worth your
while if you can track them down.
On the brass tacks thing, I know Indians seemed to favor tack decorations,
but I can only guess about whether Mountain Men tacked their guns or not. I
don't know that I have ever read a primary source that mentioned Mountain
Men tacking their weapons. My quess is that it was a personal taste issue.
Good luck on your hawken.
Don



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 21:37:52 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare

NED---

SURE WOULD LIKE SOME PICTURES---OFFLINE

NUFF SAID-----

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Michael Pierce   "Home of the "Old Grizz  (C) product line & "the
Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr
Palm Harbor,   Florida    34684             Phone: [phone]
e-mail: [e-mail]   web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:52:52 -0700
From: "Ned Eddins" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Horse Source

Wynn,

The California horse thing bothers me for the very reasons you point out. I
read  a long time ago that the Old Spanish Trail was used in the early to
mid-1800s for stolen California horses and the Indian slave trade. The idea
was that if they could start out with say fourteen hundred or more horses
and reach Santa Fe with two or three hundred it was still profitable. The
man mentioned as the "biggest horse thief " was Peg-leg Smith. I have some
information on him in Jackson. First time I go up I will dig it out.

If as Leonard mentions, the horses were sold to Missouri traders, could
these be the horses used in the pack strings from St. Louis to rendezvous
and for the trappers to use????? Like you, I have never seen any reference
to stolen horses coming out of California other than the ones over the Old
Spanish Trail. As Sue mentioned, Walker and probably every other group that
went to California tried to bring horses back, but my feeling is, it was for
there own use as pack animals and to eat when things got tough, not
necessarily to sell or trade.

The use of California horses and the Indian slave trade (as far as I know,
Mountain Men had nothing to do with it) are interesting subjects. I don't
have the book, but a good reference would be Hafen, LeRoy R. and Ann W.
Hafen. Old Spanish Trail: Santa Fe to Los Angeles (Reprint ed., Lincoln:
University of Nebraska Press), 1993.
Ned





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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 18:30:15 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20Egyptian=20cotton?=

In a message dated 1/24/02 7:22:48 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< I am surprised that Magpie has not "chimed-in", since he made a tarp from=
=20
Egyptian cotton sheets this fall. He used a Queen size and treated it with=20
iron oxide and linseed oil. I think his was a 250 count also.  >>

Randy,
I'm real pleased with the oil cloth I made from a queen size sheet of=20
egyptian cotton. It's light, waterproof, and fairly tough, although you will=
=20
have to hem the edges to keep them from tearing. I squared up the sheet=20
(7.5'X7.5') and used the scrap for re-enforcing the corners and center for a=
=20
fly.... Figure on about a half gallon of boiled linseed oil and near a pound=
=20
of red or yellow iron oxide for a piece that size.
I'm gonna make at least one more to keep the gear dry for the Missouri River=
=20
trip....
Ymos,
Magpie=20

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 18:57:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20MtMan-List:=20Some=20help=20needed?=

In a message dated 1/25/02 5:18:25 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Would love to meet many of you on this list, and renew a few good hugs
with those from the past.

Linda Holley >>

Just bring one of your big, beautiful tipi's we can all camp in Linda!

Magpie

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:23:50 -0500
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed

How about a 17'+ with ALL the goodies......it will sleep about 10 and ME.

[e-mail] wrote:

> In a message dated 1/25/02 5:18:25 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << Would love to meet many of you on this list, and renew a few good hugs
> with those from the past.
>
> Linda Holley >>
>
> Just bring one of your big, beautiful tipi's we can all camp in Linda!
>
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 19:51:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed

In a message dated 1/26/02 4:20:27 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< How about a 17'+ with ALL the goodies......it will sleep about 10 and ME.
>>

Wooooohoooo!   .....<G> I'll find you....

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:31:53 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Western History Association

Hi Mike,

Ever hear of the Western History Association?  Their annual conference is
Oct. 11, 12, & 13 (I haven't confirmed the dates but it's usually the second
weekend of Oct.) and will be in Colorado Springs.  I am going to try to go.

Bill Swaggerty is in charge of the fur trade presentation.  So far, he has
lined up Janet LeCompte to talk about writing all the fur trade biographies
sh'es done and working with Leroy Hafen, Mark Gardner (a Santa Fe Trail
historian) to speak on the Fur Trade in Colorado, and Barton Barbour (not
sure exactly what he's talking on yet.

Should be good.  How close are you to Colorado Springs?  I plan to be at the
AMM Museum of the Mountain Man expo and at least a few days of the Nationals,
so I'll see you there for sure.

Jim Hardee

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Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:35:08 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed

Magpie,

If a 17' + lodge impresses you, then apparently you have not been in one of
Rick and Jean Linseys' lodges. I'll have to remedy that. I don't think they
ever built anything much less than a 25/26 footer. I think they bring it to
Frog. Via two canoes lashed together with a frame work that spans about 6'
between canoes to space them out on the water and provide a platform to
carry the poles. Hell, you were there! Surely you must have seen it in the
main camp. The gals (about 12 or so) paddled over one day to force some
chocolate out of us. No more swimmin nicked for it, We want our
Chocolate!!!!!!!!! <G> They had us out numbered and out gunned so they got
it fer free!

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some help needed


>
> In a message dated 1/26/02 4:20:27 PM, [e-mail] writes:
>
> << How about a 17'+ with ALL the goodies......it will sleep about 10 and
ME.
> >>
>
> Wooooohoooo!   .....<G> I'll find you....
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 20:46:56 -0800
From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 12 females....

Capt.,    It's not the lodge that impresses me....12 gals per tent
impresses me....where do I sign up?   Do any of you attend the Pacific
Primitive?   I'm planning on going to this year's, in June. I've never beento one, but I hear they are worth while.  South Central Oregon is a couple
of day drive from here, but I've seen all the local stuff....   I hope to
meet some of you there.  hardtack



>
> If a 17' + lodge impresses you, .......
 The gals (about 12 or so) paddled over one day to force some
> chocolate out of us. No more swimmin nicked for it, ......
>
> Capt. Lahti'
>


- --- Randal Bublitz
- --- [e-mail]
we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,
 we are Borrowing it fro


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 21:08:29 -0800
From: "rtlahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 12 females....

Hardtack,

The one I mentioned is in April around the 21-26th and called Frog Holler.
Its a half week plus canoe in. Great fun. If your interested let me know.
It's by invite but I'm sure you'd be welcome if you mention that you got an
invite from Magpie and me, Members of the "Hard Core Elitist Bastards" that
camp out on the point in "Hard Core Elitist Bastards Estates"-a gated
community. <G>

I don't know if I'll make it to the Pacific Primitives this year. The end of
May and the month of June are shaping up to be a bit busy. What with the AMM
Nationals, the Black R. Party's "Lady Washington" whale Boat trip up the
Chehalis R. June 1-2, then there is plans afoot to float the Missouri for a
5 dayer, then Lard' Duncanson of our party has a permit to canoe into the
Boundary Waters for a week starting the 19th through the following week and
that probably puts us into the same time as they will hold the Pacific's
though I may be off by a month, I haven't looked at the signup sheet for a
couple months.

Anyways the Pacific is a nice one and is on a nice piece of Oregon
real-estate this year down by Paisley (sic) along a nice stream. You will
enjoy it.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Randal Bublitz" <[e-mail]>
To: "hist_text" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 12 females....


> Capt.,    It's not the lodge that impresses me....12 gals per tent
> impresses me....where do I sign up?   Do any of you attend the Pacific
> Primitive?   I'm planning on going to this year's, in June. I've never
beento one, but I hear they are worth while.  South Central Oregon is a
couple
> of day drive from here, but I've seen all the local stuff....   I hope to
> meet some of you there.  hardtack
>
>
>
> >
> > If a 17' + lodge impresses you, .......
>  The gals (about 12 or so) paddled over one day to force some
> > chocolate out of us. No more swimmin nicked for it, ......
> >
> > Capt. Lahti'
> >
>
>
> --- Randal Bublitz
> --- [e-mail]
> we have NOT inherited the Earth from our fathers,
>  we are Borrowing it fro
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:32:40 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bell-mare (But brace yourself, bad joke ahead)

With all this talk of bell mares, I'm reminded of a riddle my young son told
me.

Q. Why do cows have bells?
A. They're horns don't work!

Sorry, had to do it.

Jim

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Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 22:39:00 -0700
From: "Michael Powell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Western History Association

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Jim,
Here's the scoop as far as things stand right now.  Allen and I will be g=
oing to Chaz's to help him with a student rendezvous at the same time as =
the Pinedale Museum thing with the Bros there.  Then we will travel from =
Chaz's straight to Nationals in Colorado.  With school and all I wouldn't=
 be able to make it to the October event.  However, it sounds good and an=
y history buff sound try to make that one.
YMHOS
Mike     =20
 =20
- ----- Original Message -----
From: [e-mail]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 9:34 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Western History Association
 =20
Hi Mike,

Ever hear of the Western History Association?  Their annual conference is
Oct. 11, 12, & 13 (I haven't confirmed the dates but it's usually the sec=
ond
weekend of Oct.) and will be in Colorado Springs.  I am going to try to g=
o.

Bill Swaggerty is in charge of the fur trade presentation.  So far, he ha=
s
lined up Janet LeCompte to talk about writing all the fur trade biographi=
es
sh'es done and working with Leroy Hafen, Mark Gardner (a Santa Fe Trail
historian) to speak on the Fur Trade in Colorado, and Barton Barbour (not
sure exactly what he's talking on yet.

Should be good.  How close are you to Colorado Springs?  I plan to be at =
the
AMM Museum of the Mountain Man expo and at least a few days of the Nation=
als,
so I'll see you there for sure.

Jim Hardee

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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Jim,</DIV> <DI=
V>Here's the scoop as far as things stand right now.  Allen and=
 I will be going to Chaz's to help him with a student rendezvous at the s=
ame time as the Pinedale Museum thing with the Bros there.  Then we =
will travel from Chaz's straight to Nationals in Colorado.  With sch=
ool and all I wouldn't be able to make it to the October event.  How=
ever, it sounds good and any history buff sound try to make that one.</DI=
V> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike     </DIV> <DIV>&n=
bsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MA=
RGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV =
style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D=
"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Casapy=
[e-mail]</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, =
January 26, 2002 9:34 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>=
 [e-mail]</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Su=
bject:</B> MtMan-List: Western History Association</DIV> <DIV> </DIV=
>Hi Mike,<BR><BR>Ever hear of the Western History Association?  Thei=
r annual conference is<BR>Oct. 11, 12, & 13 (I haven't confirmed the =
dates but it's usually the second<BR>weekend of Oct.) and will be in Colo=
rado Springs.  I am going to try to go.<BR><BR>Bill Swaggerty is in =
charge of the fur trade presentation.  So far, he has<BR>lined up Ja=
net LeCompte to talk about writing all the fur trade biographies<BR>sh'es=
 done and working with Leroy Hafen, Mark Gardner (a Santa Fe Trail<BR>his=
torian) to speak on the Fur Trade in Colorado, and Barton Barbour (not<BR=
>sure exactly what he's talking on yet.<BR><BR>Should be good.  How =
close are you to Colorado Springs?  I plan to be at the<BR>AMM Museu=
m of the Mountain Man expo and at least a few days of the Nationals,<BR>s=
o I'll see you there for sure.<BR><BR>Jim Hardee<BR><BR>-----------------=
- -----<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/mailli=
st.html<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from t=
he Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'=
>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 22:52:36 -0700
From: "Michael Powell" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: By request

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Hello the list,
By request, Sue Raven asked that I share this e-mail I sent her in respon=
se to her inquiry to me concerning such scenes at rendezvous.  This was i=
n light of the references made concerning the film, "The Mountain Men" w/=
 Heston and Kieth.  Most of you have heard this story and can think of ot=
hers like it from many a journal.  Please add your favorite to the list. =
I'd like to hear them and others might as well.
YMHOS
Mike
USRP
 =20
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Powell
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 10:59 PM
To: SUE RAVEN
Subject: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!
 =20
Sue,
Any present day mountaineer who knows "come here from sic'um" would never=
 take offense to the factual accounts of the fur trade rendezvous.  This =
is what it was when they went "without" for a year.  One of my favorite s=
tories is the account Joe Meek gives at the 1832 rendezvous in Pierre's H=
ole.
 =20
"When the pie was opened then the birds began to sing."  When Captain Sub=
lette's goods were opened and distributed among the trappers and Indians,=
 then began the usual gay carousal; and the "fast young men" of the mount=
ains outvied each other in all manner of mad pranks.  In the beginning of=
 the spree many feats of horsemanship and personal strength were exhibite=
d, which were regarded with admiring wonder by the sober and inexperience=
d New Englanders under Mr. Wyeth's command.  And as nothing stimulated th=
e vanity of the mountainmen like an audience of this sort, the feats they=
 performed were apt to astonish themselves.  In exhibitions of the kind, =
the free trappers took the lead, and usually carried off the palm, like t=
he privileged class that they were.
 =20
But the horse-racing, fine riding, wrestling, and all the manlier sports,=
 soon degenerated into the baser exhibitions of a "crazy drunk" condition=
.  The vessel in which the trapper received and carried about his supply =
of alcohol was one of the small camp kettles.  "Passing around" this clum=
sy goblet very freely, it was not long before a goodly number were in the=
 condition just named, and ready for any mad freak whatever.  It is repor=
ted by several of the mountainmen that on the occasion of one of these "f=
rolics," one of their number seized a kettle of alcohol, and poured it ov=
er the head of a tall, lank, redheaded fellow, repeating as he did so the=
 baptismal ceremony.  No sooner had he concluded than another man with a =
lighted stick, touched him with the blaze, when in an instant he was enve=
loped in flames.  Luckily some of the company had the sense enough to per=
ceive his danger, and began beating him with pack-saddles to put out the =
blaze.  But between the burning and the beating, the unhappy wretch nearl=
y lost his life, and never recovered from the effects of his baptism by f=
ire."
 =20
They figured there was 1000 people at this rendezvous along with between =
2000 and 3000 horses.  Quite a sight!  Not knowing the extent of your kno=
wledge or research you have done, I'm not sure where you are at with info=
rmation.  However, there are a few books that are still in print that are=
n't very expensive that give a excellent view of rendezvous and are the b=
asics for anyone's intro to the fur trade.
 =20
I would suggest;  A Majority of Scoundrels, An informal History of the Ro=
cky Mountain Fur Company  by Don Berry, $7.95, Comstock ISBN 0-89174-028-=
7
The Mountain Men, The Dramatic History and Lore of the First Frontiersmen=
 by George Laycock, $16.95, Lyons & Burford ISBN 1-55821-454-2
Rocky Mountain Rendezvous by Fred R. Gowans, $10.95, Gibbs-Smith ISBN 0-8=
7905-193-0
 =20
Enjoy,
YMHOS
Mike
USRP =20
 =20
- ----- Original Message -----
From: SUE RAVEN
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:19 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!
 =20



I really enjoyed the Rendezvous account.  Got any more great references o=
r ideas where I can look up some of these debaucheries scenes.  Please ta=
ke no offense; that is how it's viewed in the present educational literat=
ure.

Sue





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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Hello the list=
,</DIV> <DIV>By request, Sue Raven asked that I share this e-mail I sent =
her in response to her inquiry to me concerning such scenes at rendezvous=
.  This was in light of the references made concerning the film, "<E=
M>The Mountain Men</EM>" w/ Heston and Kieth.  Most of you have hear=
d this story and can think of others like it from many a journal.  P=
lease add your favorite to the list. I'd like to hear them and others mig=
ht as well.</DIV> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike</DIV> <DIV>USRP</DIV> <DIV>&=
nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; M=
ARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV=
 style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=
=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Mic=
hael Powell</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, Ja=
nuary 25, 2002 10:59 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> =
SUE RAVEN</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: accur=
ate debauchery- more, more!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sue,</DIV> <DIV>=
Any present day mountaineer who knows "come here from sic'um" would =
never take offense to the factual accounts of the fur trade rendezvo=
us.  This is what it was when they went "without" for a year.&n=
bsp; One of my favorite stories is the account Joe Meek gives at the 1832=
 rendezvous in Pierre's Hole.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"When the =
pie was opened then the birds began to sing."  When Captain Sublette=
's goods were opened and distributed among the trappers and Indians, then=
 began the usual gay carousal; and the "fast young men" of the mountains =
outvied each other in all manner of mad pranks.  In the beginning of=
 the spree many feats of horsemanship and personal strength were exhibite=
d, which were regarded with admiring wonder by the sober and inexperience=
d New Englanders under Mr. Wyeth's command.  And as nothing stimulat=
ed the vanity of the mountainmen like an audience of this sort, the feats=
 they performed were apt to astonish themselves.  In exhibitions of =
the kind, the free trappers took the lead, and usually carried off the pa=
lm, like the privileged class that they were.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM>&n=
bsp;</DIV> <DIV><EM>But the horse-racing, fine riding, wrestling, and all=
 the manlier sports, soon degenerated into the baser exhibitions of a "cr=
azy drunk" condition.  The vessel in which the trapper received and =
carried about his supply of alcohol was one of the small camp kettles.&nb=
sp; "Passing around" this clumsy goblet very freely, it was not long befo=
re a goodly number were in the condition just named, and ready for any ma=
d freak whatever.  It is reported by several of the mountainmen that=
 on the occasion of one of these "frolics," one of their number=
 seized a kettle of alcohol, and poured it over the head of a t=
all, lank, redheaded fellow, repeating as he did so the baptismal ceremon=
y.  No sooner had he concluded than another man with a lighted stick=
, touched him with the blaze, when in an instant he was enveloped in flam=
es.  Luckily some of the company had the sense enough to perceive hi=
s danger, and began beating him with pack-saddles to put out the blaze.&n=
bsp; But between the burning and the beating, the unhappy wretch nearly l=
ost his life, and never recovered from the effects of his baptism by fire=
."</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They figured there was 1000 people a=
t this rendezvous along with between 2000 and 3000 horses.  Quite a =
sight!  Not knowing the extent of your knowledge or research yo=
u have done, I'm not sure where you are at with information.  Howeve=
r, there are a few books that are still in print that aren't very expensi=
ve that give a excellent view of rendezvous and are the basics for anyone=
's intro to the fur trade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would suggest;&=
nbsp; <EM>A Majority of Scoundrels, An informal History of the Rocky Moun=
tain Fur Company  </EM>by Don Berry, $7.95, Comstock ISBN 0-891=
74-028-7</DIV> <DIV><EM>The Mountain Men, The Dramatic History and Lore o=
f the First Frontiersmen </EM>by George Laycock, $16.95, Lyons & Burf=
ord ISBN 1-55821-454-2</DIV> <DIV><EM>Rocky Mountain Rendezvous </EM>by F=
red R. Gowans, $10.95, Gibbs-Smith ISBN 0-87905-193-0</DIV> <DIV> </=
DIV> <DIV>Enjoy,</DIV> <DIV>YMHOS</DIV> <DIV>Mike</DIV> <DIV>USRP </=
DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-L=
EFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT:=
 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>=
 <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>Fr=
om:</B> SUE RAVEN</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Frid=
ay, January 25, 2002 11:19 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To=
:</B> [e-mail]</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subjec=
t:</B> Re: accurate debauchery- more, more!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR><B=
R><BR>I really enjoyed the Rendezvous account.  Got any more great r=
eferences or ideas where I can look up some of these debaucheries scenes.=
  Please take no offense; that is how it's viewed in the present edu=
cational literature.<BR><BR>Sue<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR clear=3Dall> <HR>=
 Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A href=3D"http://ex=
plorer.msn.com/">http://explorer.msn.com</A><BR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BO=
DY></HTML><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer d=
ownload : <a href=3D'http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a>=
<br></p>

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