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hist_text-digest       Sunday, January 13 2002       Volume 01 : Number 927



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle
-áááááá MtMan-List: 18th c. natives/Camporee
-áááááá MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly"
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Ya fooled me!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle
-áááááá MtMan-List: Gun Barrels(Finishing)
-áááááá MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle (souldering)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Buffalo hunt next year
-áááááá MtMan-List: Great Books!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:15:39 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:41:07 -0700 "BARRY CONNER"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> This is a good example of what could have been used by either the
local
> gunsmith or blacksmith, I own two of Caywoods guns and one has the
sight
> your talking about.  Danny is really nice to deal with and always
upbeat,
> talk to him at least once a month - he's a good man and makes a  great
> product.
>

Buck.
I guess i got all entralled in reading on this thread and didnt say what
i was also thinking but as you say it was a local fix to add a rear
sight---thats one of the reasons he soft soulders them on the guns
because we talked a bunch about that also---he doesnt use silver soulder
as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in some
cases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great ---danny
and i are also close as he only lives about 10 miles from my home town
where i was rased and went to high school---danny and i hunt together on
my property best deer woods in the state he says ---if you like to climb
the big mountain---always see deer

danny and i spilled a beer on each other and he counceled me on my new
adventures in gunmaking---seems he and i have made the same mistakes at
different times---ever time i see him he tells me i dont charge enough
for my guns---told him i do it a lot for the love of building them---he
said if that was my only source of income then i would have a different
attitude---we both agree that quality takes time and lots of
patience---and the better the tooling the better the product---

his new crocket rifle is relly comming along---was working on the stock
master when i was there---that was his major project going---and still
trying to ship 5 or 6 guns a week him and his assistant---he was also
detailing the engraving on the patchbox

got to run---
Nuff said----

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:53:20 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: 18th c. natives/Camporee

Hi Fellows,
  There is a Boy Scout Camporee being held in Hartford county, Maryland in
April 19th and they want someone who is knowledgable and respectful of
native culture to give a presentation on Dealawares, and other related
tribes. Sounds like a lot of fun and a chance to inspire these young people.
I live 7 hrs. away and cannot do it. Is there any of you who live within a
couple of hours of the sight who would be willing to spend some time with
these boys. If so, contact me of list and I will put you in touch with the
Scout Master. Thanks ahead of time for your interest.
Your friend,
Don Secondine



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:06:09 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly"

Hawk,

I talked to Danny Caywood on Wed. of this week and asked about the Crocket
rifle, he said it was in the $12,000.00 range and only 200 would be made,
I've heard from others that this is as close as one can get to being a twin
to the original. Like you said excellent quality is costly as seen in this
"investment" weapon.

Buck.

> his new crocket rifle is relly comming along---was working on the stock
> master when i was there---that was his major project going---and still
> trying to ship 5 or 6 guns a week him and his assistant---he was also
> detailing the engraving on the patchbox
>
> got to run---
> Nuff said----
>
>     "HAWK"
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:32:23 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "excellent quality can be costly"

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:06:09 -0700 "BARRY CONNER"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Hawk,
>
> I talked to Danny Caywood on Wed. of this week and asked about the
> Crocket rifle, he said it was in the $12,000.00 range and only 200
would be
> made, I've heard from others that this is as close as one can get to
being
> a twin to the original. Like you said excellent quality is costly as
seen
> in this "investment" weapon.

he has done a bunch of research and has been working constantly for the
last year and a half building the tooling to make all the parts---has
even fondeled and took lots of pictures of the gun he is duplicating he
was working on the carving on the stock whil i was there during hunting
season---lock patchbox triggers and butplate lost wax molds made---he is
keeping his web site current on the progress he is making---said he had
invested over $100,000 in it so far has sample parts in from the foundry
for most of the steel parts said he was going to have to sell a minimum
of 20 rifles to get his money out of the project---he said he has orders
for over 50 so far and people are asking for specific numbers of the
serial numbers od 1 to 250---the relief carving on the wood was giving
him fits on his stock masterall the barrel channel---and forstock was
complete as was the butt area except for the carving in the wrist he had
whacked out a couple of the basic stocks but was refining what he was
doing a bit to better duplicate the original---believe he said he had
over 6000 hrs labor in the project to date and if you get 2000hrs a year
that is about 3 man years of just labor not including material and
such---he was starting to turn and machine barrels and locks they looked
good---
if you talk to danny tell him you and i correspond on occasions---he
calls me a hobby gunmaker as i usually only make 10 to 20 guns a year but
i scratch build---got a 62 cal hawken in the mill that needs to get
finished as soon as possible plus others and trying to do the underhammer
thing---doesnt seem to be enough hrs in the day---I know you know the
feeling---

want to have a few guns ready for the alifi that comes up in february so
i'm putting in the hrs--I sure hope he will break even on the crocket
project---the engraveing on the rifle is beautiful but what else would
you expect from danny--

got to run--
nuff said----



    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:02:52 -0700
From: Charlie P Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle

Hey there Hawk,
Can I make a comment on this solder thing?
I am sure excess heat could cause the warping
you mention, to properly silver solder the metal
must be heated to a good bright red for the flux
and solder to flow.  This heat done carefully should
not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the
formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale
can be  prevented in several ways, I generally use
Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <<GG>>
anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the
bore, especially in the area where the heat will be
applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire
scale  free bore, works on rifles and the smooth
tubes I prefer.  Here I go again, Brownells also
has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is
stronger than any other soft solder I have found.
        Have never met Danny C, but did run into
his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun
he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I
believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog
cover.  Had a sweet release and very fast lock
for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie
I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen
and we chatted about a replacement lock for
one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never
followed up on!)
        Understand, I don't disagree with your post,
just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say
Howdy at the same time.

- ---he doesnt use silver  soulder
> as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in
> somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:42:44 -0800
From: "Spivey, Michael" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle

Gentlemen,

Just some comments on Silver Solder and type of solder.

The comment below on using a true Silver Solder (actually a silver braze) on
a already built up and finished firearm is fact as it can be very
detrimental to the finish and the firearm as a whole.  Silver Brase "Solder"
melts between 1100?F and 1700?F and develops about 85,000 psi.  Silver Brase
is not normally used to mount sights but can be if that is what you wanted
to do.  Something better would be Brownells Hi Temp Hi-Force 44 Solder (95%
Cad and 5% Silver, 650?F and 38,00 psi) or
Brownells Hi-Force 44 Solder (96% Tin and 4% Silver, 475?F and 28,000 psi).
There are also Hi Strength soft solders that can be used to mount sights,
ribs etc but the fit of the part to a great degree controls how strong the
joint will be. Most of those hard Soft Solders melt around 425-465?F and
develop 10,000-16,000 psi strength.  True soft solder 60/40 Tin/Lead melts
at about 250 and develops about 2,000 to 4,000 psi and the fit is very
important.   Soldering Talc or welding soap stone (Pencil) can be used to
refuse the solder from where you do not want it to be by rubbing it on where
you do not want the solder to flow.

My two Cents

Mike Spivey
Ontario, CA
A&P Mech, Machinist, and Gunsmith


- -----Original Message-----
From: Charlie P Webb [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 10:03 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle


Hey there Hawk,
Can I make a comment on this solder thing?
I am sure excess heat could cause the warping
you mention, to properly silver solder the metal
must be heated to a good bright red for the flux
and solder to flow.  This heat done carefully should
not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the
formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale
can be  prevented in several ways, I generally use
Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <<GG>>
anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the
bore, especially in the area where the heat will be
applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire
scale  free bore, works on rifles and the smooth
tubes I prefer.  Here I go again, Brownells also
has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is
stronger than any other soft solder I have found.
        Have never met Danny C, but did run into
his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun
he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I
believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog
cover.  Had a sweet release and very fast lock
for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie
I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen
and we chatted about a replacement lock for
one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never
followed up on!)
        Understand, I don't disagree with your post,
just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say
Howdy at the same time.

- ---he doesnt use silver  soulder
> as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in
> somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:53:46 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle

Hawk & Charlie,

Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I'll share this little story
about putting heat on a trade gun barrel, Hanson got a big kick out of this,
he had heard it before Bill told us at one of the Chradon Days rendezvous
years ago.

A reenacter from the northwest, William Stewart tells of stories told to him
about the NW gun when living with several tribes in Canada. One that got my
attention was, while cleaning his reproduction trade gun when visiting with
some elders, the jag became stuck and pulled off the ramrod. Trying to not
show his concern, yet think of a fast remedy for his problem, an elder spoke
up and told of the same thing happening to him several times when he was
young and using such a weapon. He went on to tell of pulling the barrel from
the wood and placing it over a fire, "let it get hot enough until the patch
burns from around the jag, it will then fall out". Maybe this explains why
some stories tell of barrels bursting when shot! William didn't mention how
he cured his problem, I'm sure it wasn't by heating as suggested. (Stewart
21,22)

Now how much heat do you need to solder a little sight on guys <GGG>.

Take care,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Buck's Base Camp:  http://buckconner.tripod.com
Historical Research:  http://conner110.tripod.com
O'Connor/Connor/Conner History:  http://conner110.tripod.com/family.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie P Webb" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle


> Hey there Hawk,
> Can I make a comment on this solder thing?
> I am sure excess heat could cause the warping
> you mention, to properly silver solder the metal
> must be heated to a good bright red for the flux
> and solder to flow.  This heat done carefully should
> not cause a warping problem, perhaps worse is the
> formation of fire scale inside of the barrel. The scale
> can be  prevented in several ways, I generally use
> Brownells ( a good old reliable fur trade name) <<GG>>
> anti fire scale paste generously coating the inside of the
> bore, especially in the area where the heat will be
> applied, this gunk when cleaned out leaves a fire
> scale  free bore, works on rifles and the smooth
> tubes I prefer.  Here I go again, Brownells also
> has a soft solder Force 44 I believe which is
> stronger than any other soft solder I have found.
>         Have never met Danny C, but did run into
> his Dad at a vou, he allowed me to shoot the gun
> he had done with the Seahawks and inlays, I
> believe it later appeared on Caywoods catalog
> cover.  Had a sweet release and very fast lock
> for a lock that big. Was a fine shooter. Charlie
> I believe was his name, was a perfect gentlemen
> and we chatted about a replacement lock for
> one of Curleys old locks. (which I have never
> followed up on!)
>         Understand, I don't disagree with your post,
> just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and say
> Howdy at the same time.
>
> ---he doesnt use silver  soulder
> > as to it puts too much heat on the barrels and can warp them in
> > somecases---his underlugs are also souldered on and they work great
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:02:55 -0700
From: Charlie P Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Ya fooled me!

Buck,
Ya fooled me, which is really not to hard to do, I
thought you were going to tell us a story with a big bang
for a finale.  About three years ago a fellow came in to
our shop packing the ugliest muzzle loader I have ever
seen.  It was all brass mounted with medalions and brass
bands,  Ma of pearl inlays and engraving, simply ugly.
Wanted to know if it was safe to shoot,  Hmmmm says I
where on earth did this firearm come from?  He said he had
bought it from a tribesman in Turkey or some such faraway
place. On further questioning he informed me that after
buying the gun he had gone through hell getting it through
customs and into the United States. My first thought was
"well no wonder, anything that ugly should be burried,
not brought into the U.S."  but being the gentleman I am I
simply asked if he was serious about shooting it. He was, I
then asked is it loaded.........Of course not he shouted,
I just told you I had to bring it through customs, what a
stupid question, I have been handling firearms for years...
on and on he complained.
Well you know the rest of the story, found it indeed was
loaded. Pulled the breachplug and found not one but two
loads of powder and two patched round balls  one on top
of the other.
        Could have been very interesting had some one tried to
solder a rear sight on this one.




> Can I make a comment on this solder thing? I'll share this little
> story
> about putting heat on a trade gun barrel,

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:02:18 -0700
From: Charlie P Webb <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle

Howdy Mike,
I am going add 2 more cents worth and muddy
the water even more, <<<ggg>>>

Thank you for your input on this solder and sight thread.
Your information is very concise and accurate.  However
over the past 50 so years working with modern and
antique firearms I have found many that were silver soldered
(brased).  It used to be that an import side by side shotgun
such as Greener or Purdy was was far more regarded
because of the hard solder used to hold the barrels and rib
together.  Other imports used soft solder and sold for far less
money, most inexpensive side by sides today are done the same.
My Winchester model 21 and 23 are silver soldered, as is my
Bosse and Gebruder.  My Stoger coach gun is soft soldered.
I have several Rugers that the sights are silver soldered on
from the factory. Pedersoli's muzzle loading shot guns are/were
soft soldered, and I know of several that have come apart.
        I don't know of a practicing gunsmith who would not
include the refinishing in silver solder job.  Even with soft solder
there can be some unforseen  refinishing that must be done.
You can't solder anything hard or soft without first removing the
finish down to the bare clean/degreased  metal.  Refinishing
blueing/ browning is much easier to do than removing fire scale
from a rifled bore.  Most gunsmiths today glue ribs on rather
than take the chance of a flux run or other soft solder booboo.
Over the years, I have used a lot of pounds of Force 44, and
I believe it to be very good.
Again, I enjoyed and appreciate you input!
Catch you all later,
Charlie

> Just some comments on Silver Solder and type of solder.
>
> The comment below on using a true Silver Solder (actually a silver
> braze) on
> a already built up and finished firearm is fact as it can be very
> detrimental to the finish and the firearm as a whole.  Silver Brase
> "Solder"
> melts between 1100?F and 1700?F and develops about 85,000 psi.
> Silver Brase
> is not normally used to mount sights but can be if that is what you
> wanted
> to do.  Something better would be Brownells Hi Temp Hi-Force 44
> Solder (95%
> Cad and 5% Silver, 650?F and 38,00 psi) or
> Brownells Hi-Force 44 Solder (96% Tin and 4% Silver, 475?F and
> 28,000 psi).
> There are also Hi Strength soft solders that can be used to mount
> sights,
> ribs etc but the fit of the part to a great degree controls how
> strong the
> joint will be. Most of those hard Soft Solders melt around 425-465?F
> and
> develop 10,000-16,000 psi strength.  True soft solder 60/40 Tin/Lead
> melts
> at about 250 and develops about 2,000 to 4,000 psi and the fit is
> very
> important.   Soldering Talc or welding soap stone (Pencil) can be
> used to
> refuse the solder from where you do not want it to be by rubbing it
> on where
> you do not want the solder to flow.
>
> My two Cents
>
> Mike Spivey
> Ontario, CA
> A&P Mech, Machinist, and Gunsmith

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 03:21:54 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Gun Barrels(Finishing)

Howdy Fellas,
While we're on the subject of soldering, rear sights, etc. In the 18th c. it
was common practice to dovetail lugs on muskets, fowlers, rifles whether
they were octagon or round or a combination of both. I've never seen
original antique barrels with soldered on underlugs. It was also common
practice here in the colonies to blue gun barrels by digging a pit and
filling the bore with crushed charcoal to keep the bore from oxidizing.
Build a fire in the oblong pit and let it burn down to hot coals lke you
would if you were going to roast corn ears. Lay the gun barrel in the hot
coals and put more hot coals on top of the gun barrel.
Let her simmer for 45 min. or so and you have yourself aan original old time
fire blue finish. Over in Europe, they heated round rods and kept shoving
them in the bore so as to heat the barrel from the inside out. When it
turned blue on the outside it was done.
  Front sights on the old trade guns were set in a groove engraved in the
barrel and simply peened in at the ends of the blade. And these blades were
just a half circle of iron, never seen any little brass turtles soldered on
any original old trade guns. Now, I know this fire pit stuff might scare the
heck out of some of you, but that's how they used to do it.
Don Secondine in the Ohio Country



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!

Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous.  As usual, this is an
open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a spell, and
partake of liquid refreshment...

Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend...

Regards,

Ad


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 01:10:28 -0500
From: "CrookedHand" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!

Ad.. have a pint fer me... sorry I cannot make it this year.... gimme one
more year to get healthy..... then look out.. I'll come and sleep in yer
tent and laugh at yer jokes and hug yer gruzzly ole neck!

Good luck!
Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699
http://www.alltel.net/~chand/
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 11:12 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!


> Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous.  As usual, this is
an
> open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a spell,
and
> partake of liquid refreshment...
>
> Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend...
>
> Regards,
>
> Ad
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 01:09:36 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!

YOU COMING REAL EARLY ARNT YOU PARD----WILL SEE YOU THERE----BEST GET MY
STUIFF IN ORDER---SEE YOU THERE--- BOY DOES TIME FLY---stuff---now i have
to be on a schedule again---got to run---more later===\
sorry for the shouting but the cap locks was on ---

nuff said-=--

hawk---

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500 "Addison Miller"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous.  As usual, this
> is an
> open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a
> spell, and
> partake of liquid refreshment...
>
> Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend...
>
> Regards,
>
> Ad
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:38:49 -0500
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OFF TO THE ALAFIA!!!

Due to illness, I will not be there this year.....next year.

Linda Holley

[e-mail] wrote:

> YOU COMING REAL EARLY ARNT YOU PARD----WILL SEE YOU THERE----BEST GET MY
> STUIFF IN ORDER---SEE YOU THERE--- BOY DOES TIME FLY---stuff---now i have
> to be on a schedule again---got to run---more later===\
> sorry for the shouting but the cap locks was on ---
>
> nuff said-=--
>
> hawk---
>
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:12:33 -0500 "Addison Miller"
> <[e-mail]> writes:
> > Will be heading out Sunday for the Alafia Rondezvous.  As usual, this
> > is an
> > open invite to anyone there to stop by the Mouse House and sit a
> > spell, and
> > partake of liquid refreshment...
> >
> > Hawk, look forward to seeing you again, my friend...
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Ad
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>     "HAWK"
> Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> & "The Arkansas Underhammers"
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
> E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:06:44 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rear sights on Tulle (souldering)

charley---michael and guys and gals---
I get into this souldering things all the time---have used all types of
soulder on guns and gun parts---there is a right soulder for almost any
job (GBG)---now in my humbel opinion and from the couple of years of
doing gun work that i have done---and also the slight bit of restoration
i have accomplished and the number of double shotguns i have replaced the
rib's on and the sights i have stuck on with soulder I have to address a
few simple basic questions or parameters all of us need to think about
when doing such a project---and keep in the back of our minds

1.heat
2.what you are soldering
3. strength of joint
4. fit of joint
5. cleanlyness is next to godlyness
6. soldering is not welding or brazeing
7. loads on the souldered joint
8.purpose of souldering---
9. why are you souldering and not welding it
10. do we need a bit of overkill in our bond
11. there is a difference between souldring and silver brazeing
12.tinning a joint
13. availability of materials

now that most of the basic considerations are listed and yes there is
still a few more i didnt post on the above list---lets get down to
basics---what are we trying to do---stick a rear sight on a gun without
applying more heat than is required

first  i am from the school that believes that you should put no more
height on a barrel than is required to do your job---just what are we
souldering---should we weld it NO ---too much heat---is this a load
bearing thing---it should not be---so we come down to look at the
project---putting a rear sight on a gun similar to the way a old repair
or job was done---they didnt use silver braze---the didnt need the high
strength of that kind of joint---if we are going to have a good stable
joint the parts we are putting together should be bare metal and good
contact fit---CLEAN---totally clean---welding puts a lot of heat into a
piece of metal in fact you are flowing metal of the like kind together
into a homogenious mixture---do we need high strength in a
sight---no---just suffecient strength to keep it on the gun in normal and
semiabnormal conditions so this eleminates the need to weld or to silver
braze or to braze the sight in place---in souldering a part requires it
be timnned good to get a good bond and in silver souldering the flux is
what helpe to get the metal to flow and to stick where it needs to go
tinning is your flux in souldering---ever try to twist a couple of copper
water pipes apart that have been souldered ???????a good souldered joint
is a lot stronger than most of us realize if it was cleaned and tinned
properly so we now get down to the meat of the whole discussion---I do
not like to silver braze or braze parts on a ml for the rear sight and
for the under rib and the underlugs in some cases especially in thinn
barrels---I thank soulder is appropriate (from the above statement i bet
HERE comes the flack)

guys go to your local hawdware store pick up a can of tinning solution
(tinnaloyal or equivelent)also pick up a spool of the new lead free 3 %
silver copper pipe soulder without flux(ie rosen core) that is used for
souldering water pipes together---melts and works at low temp------take
out your sight apply the tinning compound to the sight after you have
cleaned the sight tin it good in the contact area and wipe off all the
excess while it is hot and melted do the same to the barrel where you
want to sight to godont put the tinning solution where you dont want
solder to flow---take about a 1/2 length of the stick soulder and melt on
the bottom of the sight base and flow it evenly across the bottom of the
part then take some wire and wire the sight in place or clamp it in place
your choice---take your propane tourch and warm up the two parts together
all of a sudden the sight falls into place---no excessive soulder on the
barrel and its there for good if you cleaned the parts and tinned them
properly---and you didnt even hardly discolor the barrel on the
inside---strong enough---yes---overstrong---no---do you need more
strength of bond no---now take some steel woll and or emery and clean the
sight and the area on the barrel where you got excessive metal ---blue or
brown or leave bright your choice---barrel cleanup is easy doing it this
way---I have done a bunch of under ribs on ML shotguns this way and it
works and is strong enough without excessive heat

I have never had a rear sight come off that i did this way and have done
quite a few---(I also know a few gunbuilders that do the same thing with
the underlugs)---the new lead free soulder is a lot stronger than you
realize and will easily  meet your needs for this prodject---


some of you may agree and some of the techies will disagree but just
posting my humbel opinion and experiences guys---

Nuff said---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
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Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 17:59:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Sega <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo hunt next year

I was wondering if any of you know of a ranch that
offers buff hunts in AZ or UT.  Some of you had
mentioned getting your' buffs in MT, but Thats a
little too far.  Arizona has a state run hunt but, you
only get a quarter of the beast and don't get to keep
the hide.

Thanks.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:21:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Great Books!

It's cold, wet, rainy, and dark in my camp this time of the year. So, when I
ain't up to terrorizing some critter, or trying to make sumtin, I
read...mostly fur trade, history stuff. The last three I finished of late
are: "Adventures of the First Settlers on the Oregon or Columbia River" from
the journal of Alexander Ross. ( a great read about a clerk for Astoria, NW
Co, and HBC...and covers my area of the woods) next: "Narrative of a Journey
Across the Rocky Mountains to the Columbia River" by John K
Townsend..(a physician/ornithologist that traveled west with
Wyeth...outstanding!) and finally: "Siskiyou Trail.. the Hudson's Bay Fur Co.
Route to California" by Richard Dillion. (another great book covering many
who made it west of the Rocky's)
But the book I'm having a hard time putting down is not a history book at
all, but a novel by Stewart E. White.... "THE LONGRIFLE".  I found a 1st
addition, 1932, nearly falling apart, in an antique store in Billings...for
$3. The tale is by far one of the best reads I've had in a while, (pure
mountain man stuff!) and I recommend it to all on our lists. If I can get the
covers pieced back together, I'll send this one to the AMM library...it's
just to good to set on a shelf...

Ymos,
Magpie

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