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hist_text-digest       Saturday, January 5 2002       Volume 01 : Number 922



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark
-áááááá MtMan-List: saddles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: For the Record
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
-áááááá MtMan-List: Left-handed long guns--Now stirrups
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Left-handed long guns--Now stirrups
-áááááá MtMan-List: stirrups
-áááááá MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: need to unsubscribe temporarily
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: surcingles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:36:24 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark

A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed air gun
with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a lead
ball.

I never heard this. Any of you historical experts run across this?

Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)


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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:52:45 -0600
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: saddles

    Have any of you noticed the riggings on donkeys and mules on the news
for Afganistan and other behind-the-times countries?
    They don't seem to rig them right at all but put just incredibly huge
loads on those poor critters. Just a single strap or rope around the gut.
Seems to work but I gotta feel sorry for the animals.
Frank

Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders


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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:20:27 -0700
From: "Ned Eddins" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark

Dianne,

Go to: http://www.pbs.org/lewisandclark/inside/idx_equ.html  If you have
trouble with the link or want more references get back to me.

Ned
[e-mail]



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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:01:48 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: For the Record

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: For the Record


>
> >...Also have been known to associate with the likes of Hawk Pierce
> (VBG)....Thanks
> > Hilljack (Bill Marney Sr.)
>

"Some people know how to shoot themselves in the foot right off".

Welcome Bill.

Buck.


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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:31:42 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns

He' Don,

That's my point the only original long guns that I have seen in person,
collector manuals or collector magazines that where "left handed" that I can
remember where of a fancy high dollar style, not something the common man
would be able to afford.  So why are so many of the "Mr. Know-It-Alls"
carrying LEFT handed flintlocks and claiming to be a scout, hunter, or
trapper of modest means ?  If these guns - "left handed locks" where not
that common when compared to the thousands of right handed ones that most
use, aren't these folks missing the point with their persona of the common
man ?

So once again my question is "how common is a left handed long gun" and
"would the common man, trapper, adventurer and so on of poor to normal
wealth been able to afford one if wanted.  I'm asking for your (members)
thoughts on this one, I really don't know and would be only guessing - no
proof or documentation !

Wanisi Nee'tees,
Buck Conner
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 6:18 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns


> Howdy Buck,
>   Whew! You possibly opened a can of worms on this one. This topic is
> debated quite a bit here in the east. When you look at the
evidence(american
> rifles handed down to us through posterity)american left-hand rifles are
> non-existant. I have seen only seen two left hand long guns in my
> experience. These two flintlock fowlers were real fancy highly chiseled
and
> wire inlay rich european guns owned by royalty. And I repeat, European and
> only two.
>   BTW, thanks for your help on the AMM question.
> Wanisi Nee'tees,
> Don Secondine
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:44:46 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens

In a message dated 1/4/2 9:37:21 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Kit Carson and his Hawkens rifle. I wanted to
purchase a fairly good copy of this rifle. (Don't think I can afford an
original.) What should I look to spend on this and where should I look for
it?>>

Check out Track of the Wolf.  Good stuff.
Richard James

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:23:40 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark

In a message dated 1/4/02 8:41:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed air gun
 with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a lead
 ball.

Since the link didn't work when I tried it:

In the Lewis & Clark Journals, the air rifle is talked about when they spent
the winter at the Mandan Village, among other places.  It was Lewis' "toy" he
used to impress the Native Americans.  It developed enough punch it could
kill deer -- without the big bang the normal rifles made.  The air rifle they
had looked quite similar to the 1803 Harpers Ferry rifles they carried with
the exception of the "wrist" area of the stock.  The air rifle's wrist was
curved much like our modern gun stocks instead of being straight as was
common to stocks of that period.  At the end of the curved area was attached
the air chamber.  This chamber was spherical, and removable.  The pump to
pressurize the chamber was separate.  Basically, the air rifle looked pretty
much like any other rifle except for the "air ball" at the end of the grip
area in the butt stock.  The air chamber would hold enough air for several
"firings", so they were pretty quick to reload once they had pressure up.
Air rifles of this size, were not all that uncommon then in Europe &
definitely had not been deemed "kid toys" yet.  Looking through European
history, you'll find the air rifles were quite popular with the upper class.
Unfortunately, they were EXPENSIVE, so lost out to the less expensive "powder
burners".  They also fell into that area of disrepute our modern "assault
weapons" have when someone figured out they made excellent sniper &
assassination weapons.

NM

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:40:41 -0700
From: "Gene Hickman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark

Dianne,

Take a look at this web site: http://www4.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html

The .31 cal. air rifle was a big hit on the expedition. All of the Native
Americans encountered were intrigued by it. It is mentioned frequently in
the journals. Lewis had it made for him when he was in Philadelphia prepping
for the expedition. It was very accurate, but there is one story of Lewis
accidentally hitting a woman bystander with it during a demonstration.

YMOS
Bead Shooter

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>

> A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed air gun
> with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a lead
> ball.  I never heard this. Any of you historical experts run across this?
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:19:17 -0700
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens

David,
Email off list, may have one for you to look at.
                                            mike.
David Usner wrote:

> Your discussion about the Hawkens rifle has brought me out of my burrow.
> I've been writing a play about Kit Carson and his Hawkens rifle. I wanted to
> purchase a fairly good copy of this rifle. (Don't think I can afford an
> original.) What should I look to spend on this and where should I look for
> it?
>
> Dave
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:12 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:hawkens---
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:33:07 EST [e-mail] writes:
> > >
> > > Dick
> > > I don't know how well you know this Guy from Logan. But I know him
> > > Very well
> > > and know that Hansen him self had seen this gun and wanted to trade
> > > him out
> > > of it. So it authenticity is in doubt buy you when others seem to
> > > think it's
> > > legit. By the way he did not pay big bucks for it he only paid $300
> > > for it
> > > back in the very early seventies. At a gun show from someone off the
> > > street
> > > that had inherited it. I guess the other three Hawkins he owns are
> > > phonies
> > > too. This man has been collecting old muzzlers since 1950. I would
> > > think he
> > > knows his stuff And Has one of the finest collections fur trade
> > > guns, traps
> > > and knives I have seen in one persons privet collections. He has won
> > > the best
> > > of show at several gun shows for his collection junk as he calls it.
> > > I wish I
> > > could own such Junk.
> > > Crazy Cyot
> >
> > Crazy---
> > who is this person you speak of in logan utah---please send me the info
> > offline---he may have some of the art russel knock offs that were being
> > passed as originals---please send me his address and phone---sure would
> > like to talk to him a bit and then i'll let you know what i thank---a lot
> > of people who cant afford a original get good copies then when
> > documentation is lost thru death or other ??? they seem to appear as new
> > found originals documented back to the 70's---that is the time span art
> > was having copies made---I know a couple of secrets about the copies---
> >
> >
> > Nuff said---
> >
> >     "HAWK"
> > Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
> > & "The Arkansas Underhammers"
> > 854 Glenfield Dr.
> > Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
> > E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
> > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> > Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:16:34 -0700
From: "BARRY CONNER" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark

>
> Take a look at this web site: http://www4.vmi.edu/museum/air_rifle.html
>
> The .31 cal. air rifle was a big hit on the expedition. All of the Native
> Americans encountered were intrigued by it. It is mentioned frequently in
> the journals. Lewis had it made for him when he was in Philadelphia
prepping
> for the expedition. It was very accurate, but there is one story of Lewis
> accidentally hitting a woman bystander with it during a demonstration.
>
> YMOS
> Bead Shooter
- -----------------------

What's really interesting about this gun, Mr. Beeman (of air rifle fame)
along with several others in that field have suggested the gun at the museum
is not the gun that was built in Phila. and taken on the journey, something
about the air chamber and a few other pieces of the museum gun aren't
correct according to the drawings that came from that shop that built the
original gun, now both the gun and plans are at the same museum.  Why didn't
the folks at the museum look at the drawings before showing the gun back in
the 1930's ?

Buck.


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 01:03:57 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles

Jerry,

Like Clay, I'd be very interested in a source that describes Jedediah Smith's
saddle acquired in California too.  It would be a big help to the Jedediah
Smith Society. I look forward to your providing that for the list.  Thanks in
advance

Jim Hardee

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 07:31:56 -0700
From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Left-handed long guns--Now stirrups

Mr. Buck Conner wrote:
 That's my point the only original long guns that I have seen in person,

collector manuals or collector magazines that where "left handed" that I
can
remember where of a fancy high dollar style, not something the common
man
would be able to afford.  So why are so many of the "Mr. Know-It-Alls"
carrying LEFT handed flintlocks and claiming to be a scout, hunter, or
trapper of modest means ?  If these guns - "left handed locks" where not

that common when compared to the thousands of right handed ones that
most
use, aren't these folks missing the point with their persona of the
common
man ?

Being about as common as you can get, I asked about this very question
on list about a year ago.  Here is what it comes down to for me.  I
shoot left handed, which means when I eventually get my flintlock it
will either be built left handed so I can be a ôMr. Know It Allö or it
will be right handed and I will shoot it on the wrong side.  I know I
will sometimes be shooting without safety glasses because I wont wear
them hunting or likely not often while on the ground.  If I go to a line
or specifically to shoot sure I will wear some.  That may not be the
safest plan but it is reality.

No one last year could answer me clearly that the chance of being
blinded or injured by a piece of flint or burning powder are improbable
or that it makes no difference which side the lock is on.  If it gives
me an edge when it comes to my vision, I will sacrifice authenticity.

I am facing a similar dilemma with my stirrups.  I am using English
style D ring irons because I believe they are more accurate than the cut
down cowboy stirrups that most use and call Indian stirrups.  I may
someday build some Indian stirrups as Bill Cunninghams book show you how
but I am not ready for that yet.

My son likes my style and so we got him some irons for Christmas.  Now I
have twice had occasion with mine that my foot has hung in the stirrup.
Both were minor incidences but with mocs I have no heel and having my or
my sons foot slip through a stirrup and allow a horse to drag us to
death has a certain unpleasent aurora about it.  English saddles are
built so that the leathers can slip off if the pressure pulls backward
but I have my leathers wrapped securely around the bars of the saddle.
I am seriously considering making tapadoras so our feet can not slip too
far in.

Unauthentic?  Of course.  If someone has another suggestion I will
gladly hear it.  (By the way other than the safety issue I really like
the irons.  They are lighter and have more movement than Western
stirrups.  Or the other complaints I heard from people who had not tried
them, I do not  find them cold or overly hard to stay in when working
fast.)

Please excuse the rambling
Wynn Ormond


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 15:22:30 +0000
From: "darlene secondine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Left-handed long guns--Now stirrups

He' Wynn,
  What is the title of that book by Cunningham. I want to peek at it.
I have a friend here in Ohio that cut his stirrups out of a block of real
thick wood and they look like the stirrups you see in paintings of the
period.Mexican or New Mexican looking things. But anyway, he wears moccasins
and his feet don't get hung up in them. I'll ask him where he got the
pattern and what the style is called, if you want me to. His saddle is made
from a rawhide covered tree with straight straps to hang his stirrups on and
a cinch and that is about as simple as it gets. I'll have to look at it in
more detail when we see each other again. Talk to you later,
Don


>From: "Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: Hist mail <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Left-handed long guns--Now stirrups
>Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 07:31:56 -0700
>
>Mr. Buck Conner wrote:
>  That's my point the only original long guns that I have seen in person,
>
>collector manuals or collector magazines that where "left handed" that I
>can
>remember where of a fancy high dollar style, not something the common
>man
>would be able to afford.  So why are so many of the "Mr. Know-It-Alls"
>carrying LEFT handed flintlocks and claiming to be a scout, hunter, or
>trapper of modest means ?  If these guns - "left handed locks" where not
>
>that common when compared to the thousands of right handed ones that
>most
>use, aren't these folks missing the point with their persona of the
>common
>man ?
>
>Being about as common as you can get, I asked about this very question
>on list about a year ago.  Here is what it comes down to for me.  I
>shoot left handed, which means when I eventually get my flintlock it
>will either be built left handed so I can be a ôMr. Know It Allö or it
>will be right handed and I will shoot it on the wrong side.  I know I
>will sometimes be shooting without safety glasses because I wont wear
>them hunting or likely not often while on the ground.  If I go to a line
>or specifically to shoot sure I will wear some.  That may not be the
>safest plan but it is reality.
>
>No one last year could answer me clearly that the chance of being
>blinded or injured by a piece of flint or burning powder are improbable
>or that it makes no difference which side the lock is on.  If it gives
>me an edge when it comes to my vision, I will sacrifice authenticity.
>
>I am facing a similar dilemma with my stirrups.  I am using English
>style D ring irons because I believe they are more accurate than the cut
>down cowboy stirrups that most use and call Indian stirrups.  I may
>someday build some Indian stirrups as Bill Cunninghams book show you how
>but I am not ready for that yet.
>
>My son likes my style and so we got him some irons for Christmas.  Now I
>have twice had occasion with mine that my foot has hung in the stirrup.
>Both were minor incidences but with mocs I have no heel and having my or
>my sons foot slip through a stirrup and allow a horse to drag us to
>death has a certain unpleasent aurora about it.  English saddles are
>built so that the leathers can slip off if the pressure pulls backward
>but I have my leathers wrapped securely around the bars of the saddle.
>I am seriously considering making tapadoras so our feet can not slip too
>far in.
>
>Unauthentic?  Of course.  If someone has another suggestion I will
>gladly hear it.  (By the way other than the safety issue I really like
>the irons.  They are lighter and have more movement than Western
>stirrups.  Or the other complaints I heard from people who had not tried
>them, I do not  find them cold or overly hard to stay in when working
>fast.)
>
>Please excuse the rambling
>Wynn Ormond
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html




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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 07:49:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: stirrups

Howdy Win!  I had considered using English style irons
at one time too, as I believe they are pretty much
period also, but found a pair of bentwood stirrups
from a childrens saddle and used them instead.  They
are the same as regular stirrups but a bit smaller
across, and also not as tall, thus making it
impossible for my foot to slip through even in mocs.
As a matter of fact it is really difficult to get a
boot in them.  Perhaps you could find some English
irons from a childs saddle that would work for you.  I
think that might work for you.  DOG

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 07:56:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles

The point that noone has mentioned about Center Fire
rigs is that when the saddle is properly positioned on
the horses back, the cinch goes around the largest
part of the horses barrel, so a little slide forward
or back and voila! the saddle is loose.  rerigging to
a 3/4 or rimfire puts the cinch ahead of the barrel,
thus eliminating this problem. The rimfire setup also
would allow one to double rig, but I don't know how
period that is.  I think that development came about
with cow work which sorta puts it out of our time
period.  DOG

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:19:06 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need to unsubscribe temporarily

Please unsubscribe me from this list.  I've got to go on active duty for the
CO Nat'l Guard for a few weeks.

Thanks,

John R. Sweet

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 00:20:55 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Palmer Schatell)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles

Sir:
I am in the process of replicating a Civil War cap pouch and need a small
amount of sheep skin with the wool on.  A piece about 4 X 4 inches would be
fine. If you have any scrap of this size or larger I would happy to buy it
from you.
Palmer (trescoupes) Schatell
13255 S.W. 9th Court
G-101
Pembroke Pines, FLA. 33027
[e-mail]
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles


> I use a 7/8 rigged saddle with a crupper and a martingale. all three are
> made by myself.   I tried to style the martingale, aka breast collar as
> authentically as far as my skills and research could lead me.
> I have also gone out on a limb and discreetly lined the skirts with sheep
> skin.  with all that, the saddle doesn't budge going up or down.
>  I think, with the aid of the sheep skin.  if I kept the cinch adjusted
> correctly, checking it every hour or two, I could  leave the martingale
and
> crupper at home.  another reason I lined my saddle skirts is that it cuts
> down on saddle sores and since I ride whatever I can beg borrow or steal.
> the extra padding helps to minimize fitting problems with different
animals.
> I also use a surcingle with a brown/black sheepuffalo, [Navajo sheep
> skin}mochia that makes for a very comfy and secure seat.
> Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry & Barbara Zaslow" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
>
>
> > Dog,
> >
> > I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle.  It is 3/4 rigged
> and
> > was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in
> > California in 1826 or 27.  It would slip all over the place if I didn't
> use
> > an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath.  All
of
> my
> > gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar.  I doubt
> > that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the saddle
> > from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions.  I ride in some
> > really hilly country and it is a necessity.  In the end, though, all the
> > breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a good
> seat.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Jerry Zaslow #1488
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> >
> > At 06:58 PM 12/25/2001 -0800, you wrote:
> > >I have not tried packing with a center fire pack
> > >saddle, but do ride an 1870's stock saddle which
> > >appears to be of Texas or Southwest origin.  I have
> > >chased cows several times in the Uintas with it, and
> > >guarantee it slips a lot, especially on fat ol' grain
> > >fed ponies with no withers going up a steep grade. Not
> > >only does it slide back if not tightened at regular
> > >intervals, it will roll sideways when dismounting in
> > >order to tighten it.  After a few ventures that could
> > >have turned into real rodeos on panicky horses
> > >(fortuneately none of the poor nags I rode had that
> > >much spirit, or were used to stupid things happening)
> > >I had it shifted to a 3/4 rig, and started using a
> > >breast collar.  In the country up here, it is pretty
> > >much a necessity if you go at anything faster than a
> > >walk.  Are breast collars period?  I don't know.  Are
> > >they needed?  Damn straight, pardner, at least with a
> > >center fire rig.
> > >   While on the subject of saddles, someone wrote
> > >about a saddle for $3.00, and a complete saddle for
> > >$5.00.  If I remember right, a saddle was just the
> > >tree, and a complete saddle was a rigged tree.  That's
> > >all for now from the high country, Happy Holidays, Dog
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
> > >http://greetings.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >----------------------
> > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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>
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:42:15 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Kit Carson and his Hawkens

On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:44:46 EST [e-mail] writes:
>
>
> Check out Track of the Wolf.  Good stuff.
> Richard James
>
a good place to start but they arnt going to be cheep---over $1000 for a
decent copy ---and a real good one with good barrel and parts can go over
$1500 depending on the craftsmanship and the parts---

 "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:05:36 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Compressed air gun with Louis & Clark

sure were air guns with lewis and clark and they were fairly large bore
we had a discussion on this same subject about a year and a half
ago---and all the info on them came out---just went thru my old messages
on this computer dont have it here but i have pictures of them
somewhere---that someone sent me---I wanter to build one at one time but
due to work load and time have not accomplished it there are several guys
on this list that have the info if they are still around---if they dont
post it i will try to recover the info and send it to you---look first in
the inventory of the discovery trip---believe it will give you a listing
there---

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce


On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:36:24 -0600 "Best, Dianne" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> A friend was saying he read that there was some kind of compressed
> air gun
> with Lewis & Clark, a gun that was "pumped up" by hand and fired a
> lead
> ball.
>
> I never heard this. Any of you historical experts run across this?
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
>
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:38:51 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Left-handed long guns

On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:31:42 -0700 "BARRY CONNER"
<[e-mail]> writes:
> So once again my question is "how common is a left handed long gun"
and
> "would the common man, trapper, adventurer and so on of poor to  normal
> wealth been able to afford one if wanted.  I'm asking for your
(members)
> thoughts on this one, I really don't know and would be only guessing  -
no
> proof or documentation !
>
> Wanisi Nee'tees,
> Buck Conner
> "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"  Thomas Jefferson 1771

buck
I agree with you on only seeing fancy left handed guns probably owned by
persons of high stature and means --but I have a right handed gun that
has the stock notched our so that the shooter can use his left eye to
shoot with looks like some one relly butchered the butstock gun is dated
late 1700 to early 1800 it is flint probably for someone who had their
right eye put out and didnt think to shoot the right handed gun left
handed---you can see the sights easy with your left eye if you get a spot
weld---big hunk out of that butstock---relly looks strange---have kept it
just because of that cant say when it was altered of if it was made that
way it was a very old fix---

I have never seen original  poorboy in left hand or a tenn or verginia
gun nor a northwest gun and as you say most of the originals were quite
fancy (high doller type) and all that i have seen were rifles not
smoothbores---and i have probably fondeled several thousand originals in
my time---no left hand original hawkens known by me---no left hand
original lemans known by me----but who am i to say???--a riflesmith that
builds a left hand gun would have to make a left hand lock a mirrow or
the right hand---if one was made and documented the lock was probably
taken off of a double gun and installed on the rifle---like salvageing
parts---as we do today to repair old guns if the parts can be found---in
st louis during the fur trade period there were several lock
filers---(people who made locks) they are posted in the tax rolls and
their ledgers are on file in jefferson barrix ---and I have perrused them
pretty good and saw no note on makeing any left hand locks except for
double shotguns and they were sold in pairs---the mail order catalogs for
gun parts for tyrone and company dont reflect any left hand locks unless
i missed something so the lock would have to be custom made and be a one
of a kind item---(Special Order) and custom made----some of the records
from back east might reflect left hand locks but probably would be as i
say custom made and expensive ---IE almost the cost of the whole
rifle---and a hawken sold for $8 to $12 during that period---to custom
make a lock from scratch without patterns and such would take a lot of
time---and it would be a one of a kind thing---

Just my humbel thinking and info i have avail and have seen---
Nuff said----

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
& "The Arkansas Underhammers"
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 12:20:02 -0700
From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: surcingles

Jerry

A surcingle  (spelled numerous ways in the trade ledgers of the Rocky
Mountain fur trade) was a large belt 3 to 4 inches wide-Grimsley made them
from webbing or leather- that was strapped around the saddle and the
horse/mule to further secure the saddle. They passed trhough the saddle seat
and around the grith of the horse/mule. Based on the drawings and art work
of Alfred Jacob Miller the mountaineers used a surcingle to hold the
ephismore -a piece of buffalo robe used to cover the saddle-in place. If you
study the military horse equipment books done by Randy Steffen you will see
that a surcingle was used over the military saddles from the early dragoons
clear into late Indian wars period.

Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles


> Clay,
>
> Good to hear from you.  As far as the Jed Smith reference, Tom Nichols
made
> my saddle.  He is a Brother here in California and that is what he told
me.
> I should see him in March at the Mission Doings and will specifically ask
> him for the reference at that time.  I know it is not in his Journal, "The
> Southwest Expedition of Jedediah S. Smith, His Personal Account of the
> Journey to California, 1826-1827" or I missed it when I read it.
>
> As far as the sircingle, I have never used one because although I recall
> hearing the term, I can't remember where I saw it and don't remember
exactly
> what it is.  Is it a type of breast collar or something different?
Actually
> after getting used to my saddle (about 4 years ago) I have not had any
> problem with it slipping anymore.  That was more when I first started
riding
> it.  I also use a couple of blankets and that seems to have fixed the
> problem with slipping.  Tell me more about the sircingle, though.
>
> Thanks and Best Regards,
>
> Jerry Zaslow #1488
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
>
> At 09:41 PM 01/03/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >Jerry
> >
> >Have you ever tried to stabilize that center fire saddle with a
sircingle? A
> >sircingle was a very common item as it appears is just about all of the
> >inventories and trade goods lists that I have studied --- I wonder if
this
> >extra strap helped hold those light center fire saddles in position.
> >
> >Can you direct me to the source of the "description of a saddle Jed Smith
> >acquired in California in 1826 or 27" ?? I am always looking for first
> >person descriptions of fur trade saddles.
> >
> >Clay Landry
> >Moorhead MT
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
> >To: <[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:19 PM
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Center Fire Saddles
> >
> >
> >> Dog,
> >>
> >> I ride a reproduction 1826 Gourd Horn Mexican Saddle.  It is 3/4 rigged
> >and
> >> was built based on a description of a saddle Jed Smith acquired in
> >> California in 1826 or 27.  It would slip all over the place if I didn't
> >use
> >> an old style breast collar since it has no sheep skin underneath.  All
of
> >my
> >> gear is period correct with the exception of the breast collar.  I
doubt
> >> that it is but I will still use it anyway because it has kept the
saddle
> >> from slipping back to my horse's ass on many occasions.  I ride in some
> >> really hilly country and it is a necessity.  In the end, though, all
the
> >> breast collars in the world won't really matter if you don't have a
good
> >seat.
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >> Jerry Zaslow #1488
> >>
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
_
> >____
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------
> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
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