I agree with some a probably good bit more with what you are saying. My disagreement started with a writer telling a new convert to muzzle loading not to choose a cap lock. And I was saying that if you are going to do a 1830 40 50s impression a caplock is perfectly acceptable. I am not even saying that in the West in even the late 1830s most guns were cap. I am saying that they were in use at that time in a good number good enough number that a muzzloader can use them and be correct.As far as the statement
that most (shotguns) guns in the East were cap I left out Shotguns. NOW I will quote Garavaglia and Worman Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 .
"While the percussion lock was available at this time, the flintlock mechanism enjoyed a comparatively long period of popularity on the frontier. Alexander Forsyth, a Scottish clergyman, had patented the percussion system in April of 1807; by the early 1820s, after various modifications and improvements which included the development of the copper percussion cap, the system had gained a certain popularity among sportsmen. In 1827 the American Shooter's Manual noted that eastern sportsmen were almost
exclusively using shotguns fitted with percussion locks, and by 1830 many eastern guns, regardless of type, employed the percussion system. Within a year or two it was comming to the attention of westerners with increasing frequency; early in 1832, for example, John Martin of Little Rock incorporated this line in his advertisement: "Guns and Pistols with common locks, fitted with percussion locks, at the shortest notice." Nevertheless, flintlocks remained the choice of the more conservative frointersmen for
another ten years or so. (early 1840s). Thanks Gentleman James. Im sure there will be more to come.I hope we all are learning something from our diatribes and rantings. Watch your top knots. Wagh!
buck_conner@email.com wrote:
> Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 19:32:57 -0500
> From: jim gossett <gjme@negia.net>
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question
>
> About the guns and ignition . Flint or cap? Most guns in the East where probably cap by 1827.
> I have several original U.S. Model 1816 Harpers Ferry flintlocks that weren't converted until 1828/29 and not approved for service until 1830 -marked- "US/A.WATERS/1828" and "US/A.WATERS/1829" this company did many of the conversions and where proofed by "MILLBURY/1830" (government agent)for release for serviceon this year.
>
> >From 1923 until his death in 1990 my father had collected both flint and perc. military weapons of English or American forces used in the new world (here). So I can say we have seen a few over the years of these old guns and their ignition systems. We have sold, trade or swapped to collectors fron sea to shining sea as well as several museums, so I have seen a few over the years.
>
> A large part of the conversions where not in the field until the mid 1830's back east, so to state "Most guns in the East where probably cap by 1827." just really isn't true, let me tell you why.
>
> Maybe by 1835 some had changed, but remember these people followed what the military did, plus converting from one to the other system was expensive for those limited in funds when the old flinter still worked. They used their gun to mainly provide food for their families, also protection or sport, put like today it's expensive to just waste ball and powder.
>
> Usually those of means where the first to make the change, like anything else. Charles Hanson has talked and written many articles about this subject, but what I have always found interesting is there are only a few documented cases (in comparsion to the flint) of percussion being used before 1837.
>
> When St. Louis gun makers/hardware stores - (like today's Wal Mart or K Mart, sell everything) started to promoted the use of this system, either conversion or new guns (by the way many of which according to Hanson where double barrel shotguns)was in the late 1830!
>
> Charley wrote and I can't find which journal it is in right now, that many of the weapons coming west where military muskets, that was part of your pay when leaving the service (probably because of poor pay and the weapon you carried worked, it was used for the time being), interesting, sure shoots down some folks dreams.
> Jed Smith died in the late 1820"s carrying to caplock pistols. Read JOURNAL of a TRAPPER by Russell .Mid to late 1830's caplocks are used and mentioned. Also read Wah to ya and the Taos Trail it takes place in the late 1840's. Their guns are caplock the Indians use "the old style ignition'. As for me I have both and use both.That is the nice thing about the 1830s 40s and 50s they are both correct be you trapper or trader etc. Gentleman James
> As mentioned, there where both systems, the number of each is an unknown figure, like Charley said at a speech at Bent's Fort back in the late 70's, "records where not kept on such things, the only records as accurate as they would be, would be to look at the trade lists and possibly the number of flints or percussion caps being shown for that time". Not a true picture because some of flint shooters would have knapped their own with local material, rather than spend money on flint when whiskey was available.
>
> I'm sure that my old friend "Hawk" can add additional information, as can several others like Dave Kanger or Mike Moore, both good research men.
>
> Good discussion topic that will go on until we all loose interest in this hobby/sport/way of life, Thanks Gentlemen James.
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 21:59:25 EDT
From: Traphand@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Would like to see
Does any one know if the boone and crockett [ the hunter heroes] that was on
the history channel will be shown again.A friend taped it for me ,and I ended
up with two hours of Cops
Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
Traphand@aol.com
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 22:11:32 EDT
From: WSmith4100@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Would like to see
Yes, it will be shown on next Saturday the 14th. Don't know the time
though. check historychannel.com for times. I missed it too!!!
ZZZZZZZZZZZ
Sleeps Loudly
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Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 22:42:41 EDT
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Would like to see
In a message dated 7/8/01 7:00:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Traphand@aol.com
writes:
<< Does any one know if the boone and crockett [ the hunter heroes] that was
on
the history channel will be shown again >>
(ALL TIMES ARE EASTERN AND PACIFIC)
Sunday July 8, 12 AM to 2 AM (tonight)
Saturday, July 14 12 PM to 2 PM
and then Crockett (born two generations after Boone) is featured in
THE BATTLE OF THE ALAMO
Monday, July 16 7 AM to 8 AM
Hope this helps, Barney
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hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 22:46:04 EDT
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Boone & Crockett
OOPS!!! July 8th 12AM was this morning, not tonight as I posted. Danged
senior moment again! Sorry about that! Barn
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Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 10:52:29 +0800
From: buck_conner@email.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question
- -----Original Message-----
From: jim gossett <gjme@negia.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 20:13:36 -0500
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question
I agree with some a probably good bit more with what you are saying. My disagreement started with a writer telling a new convert to muzzle loading not to choose a cap lock. And I was saying that if you are going to do a 1830 40 50s impression a caplock is perfectly acceptable.........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wish I had the resources that Hanson had, he would have enjoyed this discussion and what some writer's think is correct, but un-documented. It would be interesting to see what references (documented) material was used by the writer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOW I will quote Garavaglia and Worman Firearms of the American West 1803-1865.
> "While the percussion lock was available at this time, the flintlock mechanism enjoyed a comparatively long period of popularity on the frontier. Alexander Forsyth, a Scottish clergyman, had patented the percussion system in April of 1807; by the early 1820s, after various modifications and improvements which included the development of the copper percussion cap, the system had gained a certain popularity among sportsmen.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"among sportsmen" - men of means, not the local baker, butcher or candlestick maker, Alexander Forsyth, the Scottish clergyman, was a wealthy man, the reason he hadf the time to work on his theory of the percussion cap. He had the means to show his invention to others of like wealth, finally coming to this country with the Lords and Dukes on their hunting trips, much like some of the air rifles that appeared in the late 1700's from Europe (expensive, different and who do we know that gets a copy of one - Lewis & Clark). Don't go by only a few writers, many just copy what another wrote.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nevertheless, flintlocks remained the choice of the more conservative frointersmen for another ten years or so. (early 1840s). Thanks Gentleman James.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes the percussion system was available, that doesn't mean it was widely excepted as early as stated earlier, whether in the East or West. Look how late the muskets where in being released for service, and like most weapons trends, the public follows the military thinking.
Here's another thought;
Look at the trade gun (flint) they where still filling orders (government contracts) for flint guns in the mid 1850's, a specialized trade agreed, as the Indians where use to the old system and as Hanson told us one time, he would guess they the Indian's didn't want to get into a supply and demand problem with caps at that time.
I have several trade guns, one is a pre 1813 gun that was converted according to it's markings in 1830 in New York state, so that shoots down what Hanson said with one gun, so should we say by 1830 all trade guns where converted to percussion cap, I don't think so! That's only one gun, Eastern and probably rare to be converted at this time, probably not an Indian gun.
Tryon (a general hardware store) made and sold percussion trade guns in Phila as early as 1836, called a "farm gun" for the general public not so much the Indian trade. A smooth bore single shot - shotgun basicly, in the East and percussion, so then everything should have been percussion ??? NOT.
See what we learn with a simple subject or flint or percussion, neat.
