<BR>well said I would add a few more uses for the shovel while out in the back
<BR>country.
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>I</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> always dig a fire pit to help cut down on those unwanted fires and so when
<BR>I leave I can bury my fire pit. Camping without a trace, proper camping
<BR>skills for back country. That bring up another use to bury your business out
<BR>in the bushes with. Nothing is more disgusting to come across when your not
<BR>looking were you are stepping.
<BR>I'm sure the boys back then did not think about or care about these things.
<BR>But we live in the here and now and if you don't practice good camping
<BR>skills. Your just another one of those flat landers that has no business out
<BR>in the woods in my book.
<BR>I'm not saying this to you Mike cause I'm know you practice good camping
<BR>skills. This for those that haven't a clue what camping without a trace is.
<BR>You should all camp as though the Blackfeet are on your trail and you want to
<BR>leave as little sign as possible of your passing.
<BR>Another use for my shovel is when I'm out I am always keep an eye out for
<BR>eatable roots to add to my fair. Like I said before a digging stick just
<BR>don't cut it for me.
<BR>One more thing when having a fire in the forest it is the law you should have
<BR>a shovel and water container handy. So to tell you the truth John I hope
<BR>there is at one shovel in every camp weather it documented or not.
Groubbing Hoe..... .75". Someone has already mentioned the spades that
were listed in the Fort Astoria inventory of 1811.
William Ashley records and Jed Smith records 1825- 1831- records did not
contain any references to spades or shovels.
Robert Campbell ledger of goods taken to the 1832 Pierre's Hole
rendezvous-no reference to spades or shovels.
Nathaniel Wyeth's Fort Hall ledgers and records 1834 did not contain any
entries for spades or shovels-even though he left Robert Evans and 11 men
to build Fort Hall and cached some goods at the fort site in August of
1834-by the way there were no Metis in this group of 11.
American Fur Company ledgers for goods taken to the Rendezvous from 1833 to
1840 did not contain any references to spades or shovels.
"Things of Life" a Park Service publication which lists the items used and
traded at Fort Union from 1829 to 1845 did not contain any reference to
spades or shovels.
Inventory of Fort Jackson when sold to Bent & St. Vrain by Sarpy & Fraeb in
1838 lists " "3 new corn hoes" , and '"1 Pick axe or grubbing hoe" and
no listings for spades or shovels.
1839 Inventory of Bent's Fort- " 6 corn hoes", and "1/2 doz Spades". By
the way this inventory also includes " 50 lb barrels of almonds".
Just about every one of the inventories or ledgers listed above included
some type of adze or large chisel with a few listing things like "beaver
spears" or "beaver chisels". Be careful in interpreting Alfred Jacob Millers
art work -he arrived in the mountains in time for the July rendezvous and
was
back in St Louis by October so when did he observe the trappers doing such
things as wading streams to set traps or digging caches-yet he has paintings
which include such scenes??
Blacksmiths were apart of most of the fur enterprises and in many cases the
precursor to building a fort was to set up the forge-Fort Hall, Fort Union,
Fort Astoria and even Bonneville's Fort Nonsense built in 1833 in the heart
of the Green River valley had an active forge and blacksmith. Jed Smith
talks about laying over long enough for one his blacksmiths to repair some
guns-so even some of the nomadic trapping brigades had a blacksmith with
them.
This by far not the final answer on spades or shovels in the fur trade-just
more food for thought.
Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
I would be curious as to how many Clay has encountered in his deeper
digging into the records of places like Fort Hall?
John...
John T. Kramer, maker of:
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:24:09 -0400
From: "Tim Jewell" <tjewell@home.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
Hey everybody,
I just wanted everyone to know that I didn't just post a question then
expect everyone else to do all the research work.
So far what little I have been able to come up with is geared more toward
shovels here in the east. I have found several references to companies set
up specifically to make shovels. One of them, The Rowland Company, in
Philidelphia started making shovels in the mid 1700's. They are still in
business but now manufacture power transfer units and such. Two others gave
passing reference to shovel companies set up in eastern towns but gave no
further information.
I have sent an email to the Rowland Company to see what (if any) kind of
history they have regarding shipping and manufacture up to 1840. I know
it's a one in a million shot but maybe they'll have something that will
help.
In search of the elusive shovel...
Until later,
Tim
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 19:44:51 -0500
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels
At 09:22 AM 6/9/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Sorry Ole just couldn't resist but maybe we could use the additional
>uses of a fry pan for documentation of cast iron.
Wynn,
Ain't no cast iron here, mine is beat out of heavy sheet iron. Now Ole h=
e=20
might carry real heavy and easily broken cast iron pots and pans.
John...
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0
Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<
<http://www.kramerize.com/>
mail to: <kramer@kramerize.com>
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 01:31:40 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mules, Shovels and horses
>Sorry Ole just couldn't resist but maybe we could use the additional
>uses of a fry pan for documentation of cast iron. Wynn,
Ain't no cast iron here, mine is beat out of heavy sheet iron. Now Ole he
might carry real heavy and easily broken cast iron pots and pans.
John...
Hi Wynn,
The Spanish Barb was the horse that the northern Indians went south for in
the early 1700s. By the time of the rendezvous practicing American mountain
men 1825-1838 they were the most common horse on the northern plains. Out
numbering any others by thousands to one. This horse is noted by having one
less backbone than other horses. These horses are found in the Pryor
Mountains in south central Montana today. Living decendents. With the
price of expensive mules and horses of today. The Montana mountain Spanish
Barb is a bargin at $125. Other horseman friends and family members have
adopted these horses from BLM sales in Billings, Montana. Last month a sale
was held in Billings. They make fine mountain horses for riding and
packing. You get more of the real thing for less money from the orginial
equiptment used by the common mountain man at least here in Montana. I do
not think mules were used north of the Yellowstone until very late. They
seem to be used on the North Platte west and south more than north of that
river. The Spanish Barb horse was the standard of best use here.
As for shovels. One common method used on the northern plains and northern
Rocky Mountains was using elk horn as a pick and a shoulder blade as a hoe
or shovel. Plum practical and no need to bother packing along to the next
rare cache site.
Be going to Fort Union on Wendsday. Looking forward to rendezvousing with
other list members.
Walt
- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:39:30 EDT
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: MtMan-List: The four wild herds of Spanish Barb.
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Thought some of you might want to read up on the few wild herds that are
left, that have strong Spanish Barb blood lines.
NORTH AMERICAN COLONIAL SPANISH HORSE, Foundation Strains of the Present Breed
by D. Phillip Sponenberg, DVM, Ph
Feral Strains Some of the purely Spanish horses remained in isolated feral
herds. Such pure horses became rare fairly early in this century due to the
practice of shooting the Spanish stallions and replacing them with draft or
blooded stallions in an attempt to "improve" or "breed up" the feral herds as
sources of draft or remount stock. Bob Brislawn, founder of the Spanish
Mustang Registry in 1957, used many feral horses in his herd. Several of his
foundation horses were obtained from Utah, although isolated horses from
other herds contributed as well. The Brislawn horses contributed widely to
the present breed. Most of the feral herds that served as the original source
for the Spanish Mustang Registry were subsequently contaminated with other
breeds of horses, and are therefore no longer purely Spanish. The horses
within the SMR represent the only contribution that those once pure herds can
now make to the breeding of the Colonial Spanish Horse.
A later and major source of feral Spanish Colonial type horses were the herds
in the Bookcliffs of Utah. These horses also figure prominently in the
Brislawn as well as some other herds. In some herds these are still present
as a unique strain. In other remote parts of Utah there are still some
Spanish type wild horses.
One such area is the Sulphur herd management area in Southwest Utah. Many of
the horses from the northern end of this management area have very Spanish
type. The usual colors in these herds are dun, grullo, red dun, bay, black
and a few chestnuts. These horses show remarkable adaptation to their harsh
environment. These horses are currently attracting attention, as well as
dedicated breeders such as Ron Roubidoux and Darcey Duce. A group of these
horses was accepted into the SMR in 1994.
Feral horses of the Cerbat Mountains in Arizona contributed to the Colonial
Spanish Horse of today. The original group captured from this area was caught
by Ira Wakefield, who was a very accomplished mustanger. The Cerbat herds
have a known history of purity on their present range since 1862. While Ira
kept horses from a variety of sources throughout his long life the Cerbat
horses are the only ones of his that made an impact on the present Colonial
Spanish Horse. Today the Cerbat horses from the original capture have been
supplemented by more recent Bureau of Land Management captures from the same
ranges. The newer horses are identical in type to the older ones, giving
added credence to the history of isolation and purity. The Cerbat strain is
used by a variety of breeders of Colonial Spanish Horses, and is also kept as
a distinct strain by Marye Ann and Tom Thompson. The horses come from a very
restricted range, and are very uniformly conformed. They also have some
unique blood types, which is another indication of their value for
conservation. The feral Cerbat herds are still pure, and are being managed by
the Bureau of Land Management to remain pure within themselves. These feral
herds will hopefully continue to be a source of this unique genetic type
along with animals of the same strain being raised domestically. The Cerbat
horses are a classic old Spanish type and are roan, bay, or chestnut.
The feral horses from the Kiger region in Oregon are usually included in
discussions of Colonial Spanish Horses. These are feral horses that are
selected to be dun, grullo, or red dun. These are managed both in the feral
herds and in herds of private breeders. The excess horses from the range
herds are periodically rounded up and sold to interested buyers. The
conformation of horses in the herds is currently somewhat variable. Some are
still of Spanish type, but others are smoother and taller than the usual
Spanish type of conservation interest. Regardless of whether this
conformation is the result of crossbreeding in the past, or due to selection
from a Spanish base, it is less useful to Spanish horse conservation than is
the more distinctly Spanish type which also exists in the herds.
The Pryor Mountain mustangs range on high terrain between Wyoming and
Montana. Most of these horses have Spanish conformation, and the blood types
of the horses are also those expected of horses with Spanish ancestry. These
horses are found along a major Crow and Shoshone migration route, and they
probably have an origin in tribal horses. They are an interesting group since
colors include bay, black, roan, chestnut, dun, grullo, roans, and a few
buckskins and minimally expressed calico paints. This array of colors,
especially the relatively high proportion of black and black based colors, is
also consistent with a Spanish origin. The Pryor Mountain mustangs are an
important resource for Spanish Horse conservation in North America. The Pryor
Mountain mustangs are fortunate in inhabiting the first wild horse refuge
that is specifically set up to conserve mustangs. That they are Spanish is an
added bonus, and private individuals are now becoming interested in
conserving this type. The BLM has also recently been acknowledging the
uniqueness of this herd and is working to preserve the Spanish type on this
range. This herd is one of the most accessible feral horse herds, and seeing
these horses in their home environment is well worth the trip to this range.
Other feral horses that are included in the foundation horses of the
registries are usually individual horses with the correct Spanish appearance
rather than an entire group of horses such as the Cerbats or the Holbrook
group. These individual horses came from North Dakota, California, Utah,
Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. None of these represent a line of breeding
in the same way that the Holbrook/Brislawn horses or the
Wakefield/Thompson/Cerbat horses do since none have been bred within the
original group. They do, however, contribute importantly to the overall mix
of feral contribution to the Colonial Spanish Horses. Most feral herds
remaining today are crossbred with non-Spanish horses. Recent success,
especially with the Pryor, Cerbat, Sulphur, and Kiger horses, has stimulated
some investigation into the feral herds that are controlled by the Bureau of
Land Management for other herds of Spanish type. If other herds of the
correct type are found then the history of the feral horses in the area will
be considered, along with blood typing information, in order to determine if
any of these herds should be added to the list of Spanish type herds. These
can then be managed to guard against incursion of non-Spanish horses. Such a
program has several advantages. It keeps the feral Colonial Spanish horse in
the original environment so that selection pressures keep working to produce
environmentally resistant horses. The BLM also finds it easier to adopt out
this type of horse rather than the usual crossbred type. If any other feral
Spanish herds remain besides these four, they are probably very, very rare.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot
- --part1_2b.16a5b4f1.28550ad2_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT COLOR="#007d7d" SIZE=2>Thought some of you might want to read up on the few wild herds that are
<BR>left, that have strong Spanish Barb blood lines.
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#af0027" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>NORTH AMERICAN COLONIAL SPANISH HORSE, Foundation Strains of the Present Breed
<BR><B>Feral Strains</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></B> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#007d7d" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Some of the purely Spanish horses remained in isolated feral
<BR>herds. Such pure horses became rare fairly early in this century due to the
<BR>practice of shooting the Spanish stallions and replacing them with draft or
<BR>blooded stallions in an attempt to "improve" or "breed up" the feral herds as
<BR>sources of draft or remount stock. Bob Brislawn, founder of the Spanish
<BR>Mustang Registry in 1957, used many feral horses in his herd. Several of his
<BR>foundation horses were obtained from Utah, although isolated horses from
<BR>other herds contributed as well. The Brislawn horses contributed widely to
<BR>the present breed. Most of the feral herds that served as the original source
<BR>for the Spanish Mustang Registry were subsequently contaminated with other
<BR>breeds of horses, and are therefore no longer purely Spanish. The horses
<BR>within the SMR represent the only contribution that those once pure herds can
<BR>now make to the breeding of the Colonial Spanish Horse.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#007d7d" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">A later and major source of feral Spanish Colonial type horses were the herds
<BR>in the Bookcliffs of Utah. These horses also figure prominently in the
<BR>Brislawn as well as some other herds. In some herds these are still present
<BR>as a unique strain. In other remote parts of Utah there are still some
<BR>Spanish type wild horses.
<BR> One such area is the Sulphur herd management area in Southwest Utah. Many of
<BR>the horses from the northern end of this management area have very Spanish
<BR>type. The usual colors in these herds are dun, grullo, red dun, bay, black
<BR>and a few chestnuts. These horses show remarkable adaptation to their harsh
<BR>environment. These horses are currently attracting attention, as well as
<BR>dedicated breeders such as Ron Roubidoux and Darcey Duce. A group of these
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#007d7d" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Feral horses of the Cerbat Mountains in Arizona contributed to the Colonial
<BR>Spanish Horse of today. The original group captured from this area was caught
<BR>by Ira Wakefield, who was a very accomplished mustanger. The Cerbat herds
<BR>have a known history of purity on their present range since 1862. While Ira
<BR>kept horses from a variety of sources throughout his long life the Cerbat
<BR>horses are the only ones of his that made an impact on the present Colonial
<BR>Spanish Horse. Today the Cerbat horses from the original capture have been
<BR>supplemented by more recent Bureau of Land Management captures from the same
<BR>ranges. The newer horses are identical in type to the older ones, giving
<BR>added credence to the history of isolation and purity. The Cerbat strain is
<BR>used by a variety of breeders of Colonial Spanish Horses, and is also kept as
<BR>a distinct strain by Marye Ann and Tom Thompson. The horses come from a very
<BR>restricted range, and are very uniformly conformed. They also have some
<BR>unique blood types, which is another indication of their value for
<BR>conservation. The feral Cerbat herds are still pure, and are being managed by
<BR>the Bureau of Land Management to remain pure within themselves. These feral
<BR>herds will hopefully continue to be a source of this unique genetic type
<BR>along with animals of the same strain being raised domestically. The Cerbat
<BR>horses are a classic old Spanish type and are roan, bay, or chestnut.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#007d7d" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The feral horses from the Kiger region in Oregon are usually included in
<BR>discussions of Colonial Spanish Horses. These are feral horses that are
<BR>selected to be dun, grullo, or red dun. These are managed both in the feral
<BR>herds and in herds of private breeders. The excess horses from the range
<BR>herds are periodically rounded up and sold to interested buyers. The
<BR>conformation of horses in the herds is currently somewhat variable. Some are
<BR>still of Spanish type, but others are smoother and taller than the usual
<BR>Spanish type of conservation interest. Regardless of whether this
<BR>conformation is the result of crossbreeding in the past, or due to selection
<BR>from a Spanish base, it is less useful to Spanish horse conservation than is
<BR>the more distinctly Spanish type which also exists in the herds.
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#007d7d" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The Pryor Mountain mustangs range on high terrain between Wyoming and
<BR>Montana. Most of these horses have Spanish conformation, and the blood types
<BR>of the horses are also those expected of horses with Spanish ancestry. These
<BR>horses are found along a major Crow and Shoshone migration route, and they
<BR>probably have an origin in tribal horses. They are an interesting group since
<BR>colors include bay, black, roan, chestnut, dun, grullo, roans, and a few
<BR>buckskins and minimally expressed calico paints. This array of colors,
<BR>especially the relatively high proportion of black and black based colors, is
<BR>also consistent with a Spanish origin. The Pryor Mountain mustangs are an
<BR>important resource for Spanish Horse conservation in North America. The Pryor
<BR>Mountain mustangs are fortunate in inhabiting the first wild horse refuge
<BR>that is specifically set up to conserve mustangs. That they are Spanish is an
<BR>added bonus, and private individuals are now becoming interested in
<BR>conserving this type. The BLM has also recently been acknowledging the
<BR>uniqueness of this herd and is working to preserve the Spanish type on this
<BR>range. This herd is one of the most accessible feral horse herds, and seeing
<BR>these horses in their home environment is well worth the trip to this range.</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> </FONT><FONT COLOR="#007d7d" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Other feral horses that are included in the foundation horses of the
<BR>registries are usually individual horses with the correct Spanish appearance
<BR>rather than an entire group of horses such as the Cerbats or the Holbrook
<BR>group. These individual horses came from North Dakota, California, Utah,
<BR>Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. None of these represent a line of breeding
<BR>in the same way that the Holbrook/Brislawn horses or the
<BR>Wakefield/Thompson/Cerbat horses do since none have been bred within the
<BR>original group. They do, however, contribute importantly to the overall mix
