organdy, muslin, nankeen, pongee silk, sarsnet, satin, and velvet.
Textiles for Clothing in the New Republic, 1800-1850: A Workbook of
Swatches and Information, by Lynne Z. Bassett $34.95 U.S.
Available from: http://www.sallyqueenassociates.com/
This book is hot off the presses--get yours now, because once it's out of
print, you might have a looong wait ahead of you.
Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
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Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:20:34 EDT
From: LivingInThePast@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
Tim, Although this is not a direct ref to the RMFT, in looking at the Joseph
Smith Key To The Various Sheffield Manufactories (1816), illus. 980-1003,
there were a number of spades/shovels being made.
Most (but not all) of them have a square cornered blade. They have either a
simple 'T' handle, or in most cases a 'D', as commonly seen today.
In contrast to the items made today, these appear to have hand-wrought blades
and hand-shaped handles.
There are a couple of shovel-nosed spades shown as well, and they are very
full at the sides, giving the appearance of almost a heart shape.
If you'd like a photocopy of the pages, let me know. Barney
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Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:26:38 -0600
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
Hi Tim;
I think shovels were so common place, that no one bothered to mention them.
after all, what else would one dig a cash with? if you had to dig it with
your fingernails or your frying pan wouldn't such an arduous task be
mentioned in your journal? I believe shovels were carried and were/are,
just as necessary as was a good felling ax. Keep in mind a large brigade
might only need a couple. I use, like many of my compadres, a smaller
Swiss army surplus shovel, that looks remarkable close to the hand forged
originals. It's small enough to stow in a pannier or a car trunk. the handle
shank is riveted to the blade rather than welded. I picked mine up at a
local army navy store for about 10.00 or so.
Tom
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Jewell" <tjewell@home.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 8:47 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
> Hello the list,
>
> I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's
> trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement
and
> as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period
accounts
> of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging
caches
> and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second,
> since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody
have
> a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used?
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:51:18 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <Wfoster@cw2.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!!
> Walt,
> Just yanking the chain, take notes. I have got too much on my plate now.
> YMOS
> Ole # 718
What do you want me take notes about Ole. The cast iron foundry at Fort
Union?
Walt
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Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:50:44 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
Tim,
Get ahold of a copy of Rex Allen Norman's 1837 sketchbook of the western fur
trade. In it is a sketch of the shovel that he believes was used. You can
get a close copy of the blade end by getting a WWI or II European military
shovel through some of the surplus stores. Try Cheaper than Dirt.
The sketch book will also show you proper dress and other gear. Basically
what you don't see you shouldn't have. <G> Good luck on your journey.
Capt. Lahti'
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Jewell" <tjewell@home.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 7:47 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
> Hello the list,
>
> I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's
> trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement
and
> as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period
accounts
> of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging
caches
> and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second,
> since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody
have
> a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used?
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:47:54 -0400
From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: dung eat`in dogs
Having hunting dogs on and off for most of my 57 yrs. a dog that eats dung
is a sign of the dog not being worth having. Most I`ve seen aren`t worth the
time to care for them. A big embarrassment for the unfortunate owner. Here
in the north they were usually shot. No good to hunt or for pets.
Now that I found this wonderful tidbit of info we will no longer have to
shoot them. We can trade them to mule owners as stall cleaners.
As for a scientific reason, I don`t know, but maybe someone will.
What part of the country has the most mules?
John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
longhunter
mountainman
Southwest, Ohio
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:22:40 EDT
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
- --part1_98.15f04eed.2850da20_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
When I was in the Rockys, I heard several stories of how shovels were carved
out of wood in the winter when it was to cold to do anything else, then they
became trade items.
Joe
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>When I was in the Rockys, I heard several stories of how shovels were carved
<BR>out of wood in the winter when it was to cold to do anything else, then they
<BR>became trade items.
<BR>
<BR> Joe</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:44:09 -0500
From: Jim Lindberg <jal@cray.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
I got a British WWI shovel with wooden t handle from Sportsman Guide for
around $15, luckily I got the plain wooden handle and not the od green
one.
Jim
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:07:04 -0400
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
Arrowhead Forge makes a good, peroid shovel.
D
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:08:12 EDT
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
In a message dated 6/7/1 7:45:24 AM, jal@cray.com writes:
<<I got a British WWI shovel with wooden t handle from Sportsman Guide for
around $15, luckily I got the plain wooden handle and not the od green
one.>>
I have a US version of the same entrenching tool. I used it to shovel dirt
into John Johnston's grave when we buried him. Are we saying now that this
is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade period? It sure is handy in camp.
Richard James
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:09:35 -0400
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
Are we saying now that this is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade
period?
>>Not in my camp.<G>
D
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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:12:55 -0500
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark material culture info wanted
Friends and foes,
I am posting this message below for a museum colleague. I told her that
this was the place for answers. I will be at Colonial Williamsburg
starting tomorrow till the 16th for the ALHFAM conference (Living history
museums) so I won't see any answers 'till I get back. I hope I have lots
of replies to read.
You can reply directly to her, too. See you down the trail.
Cheers,
HBC
>Hello Everyone!
We are in need of some information and sources for blankets, coats and
buckets for 1800-1803ish (yes this is Lewis and Clark).
Does anyone know what color and size the military blankets are at this
time?
Were the outer coats (watch coats or Capote) a wool coat/cape or were
they a capote/blanket coat? And what colors?
We need a source for large (5 gallon) brass buckets for this time
period too. Any ideas?
Thank you for your help! I'll be in Williamsburg next week, so see
many of you then.
Janice Elvidge
Education Specialist
Fort Clatsop National Memorial
92343 Fort Clatsop Road
Astoria, OR 97103
(503) 861-2471 ext. 221
Janice_Elvidge@nps.gov
***********************************
Henry B. Crawford
Curator of History
Museum of Texas Tech University
Box 43191
Lubbock, TX 79409-3191
henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu
806/742-2442, ext 255 FAX 742-1136
Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
***Living History . . . Because It's There***
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:14:07 -0400
From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: shovels
Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ??
John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
longhunter
mountainman
Southwest, Ohio
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:17:30 -0400
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels
" Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ??"
> John.
Let me say this with all sincerity...
$&*%^#()()%*()@#__*(*$(%U& NO!!!!!!!!!
D
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:21:51 -0400
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels
Allow me to expand on this..
Several years ago, I made a shovel for a "famous frontiersman" well, he was
so taken with it that he showed his buddies, and they wanted a shovel just
like (name deleted) So I built shovels for a damned month. Then said
frontiersman offered to expose the shovel in a magazine so I could sell
more.. He was threatened (promised) a slow, painful and ugly death if he did
such or even mentioned my shop in the same breath as the shovel. I have not
done a shovel since and I will not do a shovel again. Arrowhead Forge makes
a nice one.. GO there.
Want a knife or such, gimmee a holler.
D
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Knives and Iron Accouterments
http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
"Knowing how is just the beginning."
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:21:33 -0400
From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels
I guess a bark tanned scabard is out of the question too ?
> " Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ??"
>
>
> > John.
> Let me say this with all sincerity...
>
> $&*%^#()()%*()@#__*(*$(%U& NO!!!!!!!!!
>
> D
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:23:52 -0400
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels
F*** You, John Hunt.
Don't you have something else to do?
Love
D
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:27:35 -0400
From: "John Hunt" <jhunt1@one.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels
NO!!!!!!!!! just annoy you.
> F*** You, John Hunt.
> Don't you have something else to do?
>
> Love
> D
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>
>
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:09:13 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
> I have a US version of the same entrenching tool. I used it to shovel
dirt
> into John Johnston's grave when we buried him. Are we saying now that
this
> is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade period? It sure is handy in
camp.
>
> Richard James
Friends,
I got to back off what I said yesterday about being able to see an example
of this type of shovel by looking at Norman's Sketch Book. In response to
Richard's post above and the other comments showing up this morning, I got
the Sketch Book out to take another look at the shovel. It's not in Norman's
Sketch Book.
Look on page 133 of Book of Buckskinning Vol. VIII under "Trappers Tools"
for an example of an early~mid 19th Century shovel. Other than the "T"
handle, the military entrenching tool available from the aforementioned
surplus outfits is a dead ringer. My camp mate Taos, has gone so far as to
add a "T" handle to his shovel and I will as soon as I get a piece of metal
to bend over the "T" and a ring to retain it made up. Right now all I did
with mine was to remove the stock military wood handle which was too short
anyway and replace it with a section of hickory or ash from another broken
shovel handle.
The shovel handle is retained by a ring that slips on towards the blade end
or the "T" handle end to a tight slide fit along with a rivet through the
ring and "tang's" of both metal parts to form a secure connection. It is a
simple matter to knock the rivet out, and replace the original wood handle
with one of a more proper and handy length. I found no great need for the
replacement of the rivet so it is possible to knock the ring towards the
blade and thus loosen the grip on the handle by those tangs. You can then
remove or replace the handle in the field with whatever is handy. Hope this
helps.
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:05:00 EDT
From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels
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> Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and for
> the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the short
> handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties behind the
> saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. (for packing and
> real digging)
The ones from Arrow Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. They
have a tendency to bend at the blade. One of the members of our party had one
and while digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since replaced
it with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they look
just as good.
my two cents.
Crazy Cyot
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>The Shovel that <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and for
<BR>the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the short
<BR>handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties behind the
<BR>saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. (for packing and
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The ones from Arrow Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. They
<BR>have a tendency to bend at the blade. One of the members of our party had one
<BR>and while digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since replaced
<BR>it with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they look
