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hist_text-digest       Saturday, April 21 2001       Volume 01 : Number 789



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and L&C accuracy
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent
-áááááá MtMan-List: Drive and dump
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and L&C accuracy
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents
-áááááá MtMan-List: Ferris Map
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Going Indian versus Puritains
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent

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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:13:19 -0600
From: "John L. Allen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN

A "p.s." to my earlier posting:

The best place to get the necessary tables for solar declination are from
astronomical almanacs (called "ephemerae" in Lewis & Clark's time). Data can
be downloaded from the U.S. Naval Observatory site, as I recall. Address is:
aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/docs/almanacs.html#astalm.

Simplest way to navigate in this day and age is with a laptop and a
hand-held GPS device, available from DeLorme mapping for under $100 (the GPS
receiver, not the laptop).

On another mapping topic: as I was writing this, the UPS deliveryman came
with my copies of Warren Angus Ferris's "Map of the Northwest Fur Country,
1836". It is absolutely fantastic and the best example of mountain man
cartography, saving Jim Bridger's great map of the mid-1850s. But Bridger's
map was made after significant government exploration during the 40s and 50s
while Ferris's map illustrates the geographical knowledge of the RMF during
its heyday. Map is available from Mountain Grizzly Publications, 133 East
1600 North, Orem, UT 84057, phone [phone]. The price is $24.95 and the
map is accompanied by a nice little pamphlet describing the map. This is
apparently a limited run: my two copies were numbered 301 and 302 of 2000.
The map reproduction is terrific; color is a sepia tone and it looks
old--will look great framed and hanging on a wall. Now if I can just get the
Mountain Grizzly folks to knock my price down for the free advertising . . .

John Allen

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 9:43 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN


> Angela,
> I know your sidekick is a navigator, and I'm wondering if he can come up
with
> an easy way of figuring out latitude using just the sun. Seems to me we'd
use
> "local apparent noon" (LAN) and come up with a sun line that would give us
> latitude, but can't remember just how we did it.
> At night of course, we use the North star, and measure the angle from the
> horizon to get latitude. I ask because Lewis and Clark took LAN shots on
the
> voyage of discovery. Might be fun to see just how close they were on the
> observations.
>
> Ymos,
> Magpie
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:12:25 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and L&C accuracy

At 11:45 AM 4/20/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:43:32 EDT
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Latitude and LAN

Hi, I'm Jeff,
I presume that you are looking for historical methods. Well, here goes....

>...an easy way of figuring out latitude using just the sun.

Two methods were used. The first is easy. Using your sextant and parallel
glasses (reflecting artificial horizon) record the highest altitude of the
sun at LAN. Apply instrument corrections and divide by two to find the
height of the sun above the horizon as measured by the sextant. Apply the
correction for the refraction of the Earth's atmosphere (modified by the
density altitude) to obtain the true altitude of the sun above the
horizontal (horizon). Subtract this number from 90 degrees to obtain the
distance of the sun from the zenith (the point directly overhead). Look up
the sun's declination for the time of your observation (nearest hour is
sufficient) and, if it is north, then add it to the zenith distance to find
your Latitude. If south, subtract the declination from the zenith distance
to find it. Your accuracy with this method (using either modern or
historical instruments) should be less than 1 nautical mile in error. (This
accuracy will seem astonishing to mariners, but they have to contend with
fuzzy horizons, heaving seas, and a place to stand that continually moves
across the earth's surface.)

The second method is called "latitude by double altitudes" and has been
forgotten by modern navigators. The method involves taking two observations
of the sun separated by a known time interval of about an hour. (A common
watch of the period is sufficiently accurate for this purpose.) Using a
bunch of spherical trigonometry one's latitude can be found to about the
same accuracy as a "noon shot". With a hand calculator (not historic) I can
do the calculations in about 20 minutes. Using trig tables and logs
(historic) I can beat the problem to death in about 1 1/2 hours or
so....(if the mosquitoes aren't too bad)

>At night of course, we use the North star, and measure the angle from the
>horizon to get latitude.

Well, not quite of course, of course. You see, the north star is not really
at true north, it's off by about 30 minutes of arc, so that results in a
huge error (up to plus or minus 30 nautical miles!) if you don't go to a
lot of bother to figure out the time beforehand. Basically the method was
not used circa 1800. Much easier just to use the sun or other star on a
meridian passage - then time is irrelevant.

>I ask because Lewis and Clark took LAN shots on the
>voyage of discovery. Might be fun to see just how close they were on the
>observations.

Well, I happened to be at the Giant Springs of the Missouri River for a
re-enactment with some really nice fellows from Great Falls. Seeing as how
the springs are readily identifiable and ain't moved much in the last 200
years or so I figured it would be fun to see how a shot taken by me would
compare to reality & L&C. I was off by about 700 yards in latitude, and
Meriwether, well he missed it by something like 17 miles... Unfortunately
there is no really good reason for such a large error other than
inexperience. L&C weren't the only explorers to get their sums wrong, Heck,
Alexander Mackenzie's first expedition to find the Pacific was such a
surveying dog's breakfast that he returned home to England for some
remedial math before setting out again (this time successfully) in 1793.

Oh, by the way, I gather that somebody on the list expressed the view that
L&C's accuracy went to pot once they let their watch run down. This really
should have had almost no effect as even pocket chronometers like L&C's
were not reliable enough over many days for longitudinal accuracies
comparable to todays. The purpose of such watches was to keep track of
local time (and they were set frequently for this purpose). Greenwich time
was determined by observation using the lunar distance method. The time
difference between local time and Greenwich (or Philadelphia/Paris or
wherever depending upon your nationality) determined your longitude. David
Thompson's accuracy in longitude was obtained by means of only a common
watch and a good eye. Of course, the determination of latitude is
completely time independent.

For a full discussion (with computational examples) of David Thompson's
complete methods, I refer you to Northwest Journal Vol. IX. Available
through Angela...

Oh, Angela has just tacked on the entry by John Allen:
John Allen wrote:
 >>On Lewis and Clark and LAN:
The captains were remarkably close on their latitudinal observations, partly
because they had two sets of readings for comparison: local noon time or
"local apparent noon" which they obtained from solar elevation and
observance of Polaris at night. <<

Polaris really should not have helped much because of the time sensitivity.
Latitude by meridian transit or double altitudes or equal altitudes would
have been much more accurate and only one of these methods (double
altitude) requires a watch that can keep time for an hour to an accuracy of
about +/-9 seconds. - JG

 >>They were less correct in their longitudinal
observations because they forgot to wind their chronometer and let it run
down (no quartz batteries in 1804). They couldn't ever get it set correctly
again, forcing them to use incredibly complicated measures to determine
longitude (transit of the moons of Jupiter, etc.).<<

Did they really use Jovian moons? The method is grossly inaccurate and a
royal pain. Lunar distance is the way to go (and it yields results of about
+/- 5 minutes of longitude if you stay in one spot for a couple of days and
observe your brains out) - NB: The Lunar distance method does require some
math skills while the Jovian method is math-free. -JG

 >>Determining latitude from local apparent noon can be done only if you
have a
set of tables (Lewis and Clark carried them) showing the sun's elevation
above the horizon for different lines of latitude on each day of the year. <<

The required tables (included in an annual book still entitled the
"Nautical Almanac") simply list (amongst other things) the declination
north or south of the celestial equator of the sun for each day (usually
several times for each day) throughout the year. It's not a large amount of
data to carry around and the information pretty much repeats every five
years. It is important to note that to determine your latitude using
Polaris *to the same accuracy* you not only need a set of tables, you also
require the exact time- JG.

 >>Of course, you have to know the date of your observation. One of the
reasons
why Lewis and Clark were so absolutely certain to make daily journal entries
was so they'd always know what day it was. Any of you who have been out in
the boonies for any length of time know how easy it is to lose track when
you don't have to punch a time clock.<<

Quite so! Lose track of a day and you will be in deep navigational
yogurt.... I might add that navigation is the art of staying found. The
standard tools of the day (as practiced by David Thompson, Peter Fidler,
Phillip Turnor and others in British North America) were latitude by
meridian transit of the sun or other star, latitude by double altitudes,
the occasional latitude by equal altitudes, and longitude by lunar
distance. The mathematical instrument of choice was the sextant (designed
specifically for the observing of lunar distances) used in combination with
a mercury-filled reflecting artificial horizon (parallel glasses). Watches
were usually just common watches; true chronometers capable of accurate
longitudes were still really only reliable in the context of ship-board
use. So-called "pocket chronometers" like the one used by L&C were just too
darned expensive (Thompson never owned one). Latitude by Polaris and
longitude by Jovian moon were pass'e, and were no longer included in
standard navigational texts of the period. For examples of the methods
taught see "Tables Requisite to be used with the Nautical Ephemeris for
Finding the Latitude & Longitude at Sea." edited by John Garnett (editor of
the American Nautical Almanac), New-Jersey, 1806. - JG

Hope this helps....



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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:06:53 -0600
From: Logan <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent

Hi folks,

    I swear by my "Highland Tents" tent (Their parent company is Panthera
Trade Company - NO relation to Panther Primitives) It has served me well
through 2 years of living while building my house. It's survived 70 mph
winds on several occasions, major snow storms, and almost golf ball
sized hail in a strong wind. The only problem I had after each storm was
in resetting my 28" stakes (the ground gets soggy, and they start to
slide eventually). It's made out of 13 oz Sunforger (the white canvas
most people seem to use), and it held like a charm! Rain, wind, snow
will not keep me away (well, maybe the mortgage, but not the weather!).
Their parent company also carries almost any kind of leather and tools
you could want at great prices. They are great to work with! Their email
address is [e-mail], if you want to talk to them. I'm not sure
if they have a web site or not...

Just my two bits..

Logan

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Subject:
>         RE: Canvas Question
>   Date:
>        Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:25:42 -0600
>   From:
>         SALES <[e-mail]>
>     To:
>         [e-mail]
>
>
>
>
>Dear Logan-
>
>In answer to your question, yes we sell canvas off the bolt, not just
>finished materials. It so happens that we are having a sale on some of
>our canvas now.  Normally, the Retail price of this canvas (it isn't >the
>fire-retardant,  that canvas is more expensive, but also on sale) is
>$4.75 a yard. The sale price is: $4.00 a yard (for an order of 10-40
>yards),  $3.75 a yard (for an order of 50-90  yards), or $3.50 a yard
>(for  any order of 100 yards or more).  If we don't have exactly what
>you want, we will find it.
>
>   While we normally only stock the variations of Sunforger canvas >(from
>the water-resistant to the Flannel Sunforger), we currently also have
>several hundred yards of 13 oz. 5' wide colored (red, navy, and
>grey-blue) untreated canvas. We are selling it at $2.50 a yard (regular
>price is $5.00). We have a limited supply of this canvas.
>
>   We are also having a special sale:  a 15% discount to the first two
>people in any state to have a tent order in by June 15.
>
>Thank you for your inquiry, and we look forward to doing business with
>you again.
>
>Sonya Urban
>Highland Tents
>(a division of Panthera Trade Company)
>[phone]
>1-866-240-9600 (toll free)
>[e-mail]

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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:56:30 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Drive and dump

Larry and Ole,

I was going to cover that and go into slightly more detail.

You suit up before you get to the gate. (put your duds on)
Drive in find a spot and dump your stuff out.
Go part the rig out in the parking area.
Come back in and stop to talk to some buddies from across the country you
haven't seen in a year.
Finally get to your camp and set up if your wife hasn't got it done yet.

When they allow you to set up out of your rig it is usually a 30 minute time
limit which is used up dumping stuff out so back to drive, dump, park, setup
or "Drive and dump" for short.

Capt. Lahti'
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent


> Ole,
>     Not in California.  We don't allow setup after drop.  You drop, drive
> outa camp THEN set up.  You Utah boys outta know better.
>
> Larry Huber
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 7:35 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent
>
>
> > Linda,
> > Park and Drop= Put everything you own for camping in a truck, drive to
> camp
> > spot drop your stuff, set up, remove truck, change clothes and you are
> done.
> > Its how I get the wife and kidlet to go with me.
> > Ole
> > ----------
> > >From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
> > >To: [e-mail]
> > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent
> > >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 1:16 PM
> > >
> >
> > >Ok...what is a park and drop??  Is that different than you have ONe
hour
> to get
> > >out of Dodge.....  And that is a mighty small camp.... at "15"x25"
> "?????
> > >Knowing it is bigger than that, I hope, Do you put the tent around the
> car???  I
> > >did that once.  Drove them crazy.
> > >
> > >Linda Holley
> > >
> > >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:
> > >
> > >> John,
> > >> That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the
> > >> connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a
one
> pole
> > >> tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the
pyramid
> in
> > >> my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for
the
> > >> "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have
ever
> seen.
> > >> YMOS
> > >> Ole # 718
> > >> ----------
> > >> >From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
> > >> >To: [e-mail]
> > >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent
> > >> >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> >>What did you find about pyramid tents?
> > >> >>Lanney
> > >> >
> > >> >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents,
> > >> >
> > >> >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/
> > >> >
> > >> >know more about tents than anyone else I know.  I have been very
> pleased
> > >> >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of
their
> > >> >products I've seen.  They have the following information on their
web
> site.
> > >> >
> > >> >begin quote............."
> > >> >                           PYRAMID TENTS
> > >> >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the
> last
> > >> >few years. They have a very thin and short history.
> > >> >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first
> reference
> > >> >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every
attempt
> to
> > >> >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea
> was to
> > >> >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown
> Bess
> > >> >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we
> > >> >actually find the design in use.
> > >> >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on
the
> > >> >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in
> photographs
> > >> >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor
vehicles
> at
> > >> >picnic/ camping trips.
> > >> >
> > >> >"end quote..................
> > >> >
> > >> >John...
> > >> >John T. Kramer, maker of:
> > >> >
> > >> >Kramer's Best Antique Improver
> > >> > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
> > >> >        >>>As good as old!<<<
> > >> >
> > >> ><http://www.kramerize.com/>
> > >> >
> > >> >mail to: <[e-mail]>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >----------------------
> > >> >hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >>
> > >> ----------------------
> > >> hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> > >
> > >
> > >----------------------
> > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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>
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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:56:57 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Latitude and L&C accuracy

Hallo Jeff,
Excellent! ...and that's right handy with a sextant in Great Falls, to get within 700 yards. If I'm in the same state, I'm feelin kinda smug....<G>
Thanks to you (and Angela) and John Allen...
Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:24:42 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents

Hanging a bunch of skins over a pole
> and staking down the sides was very likely one step in the evolution of
the
> tipi. Also, if one did not have enough hides or canvas sheets for a full
> tipi, one might just make do with what one had and accidentally 'invent'
> the one-poler.
>     I believe the one-pole design to be very appropriate for the period.

Frank,

You sure do a lot of "believing and "methinks" ing to get to a point where
you can feel good about doing what can't be proven. <G> The Finn's or more
correctly their Native contingent up north invented the tipi and gave the
technology to the Indians of the New World when they came over here so many
years before the Vikings to trade and teach.

BeThatAsItMay, it is much easier to stretch a few hides over a few poles
leaning into each other than it is to make some kind of weather proof
shelter by tying up a bunch of hides to one pole. We do that in our groups
using each members sheet of canvas (usually (9' X 9') thus making a shelter
about 10' high that has room for as many as 7 men with a fire in the middle.
Kinda looks like a shallow tipi. Anyway I think you got your logic
backwards. And we ain't discussion the suitability of tipi's or one pole
cone shaped shelters regardless of what they are made of. We are discussion
the time period correctness of a "pyramid" shaped tent of canvas with one
pole in the middle called a Miners Tent.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:26:10 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents

In a message dated 4/20/1 07:20:25 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<We are discussion
the time period correctness of a "pyramid" shaped tent of canvas with one
pole in the middle called a Miners Tent.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'>>

And the conclusion is ? ? ? ? ? ? ??????????????!!
RJames

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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:38:40 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents

> And the conclusion is ? ? ? ? ? ? ??????????????!!
> RJames

So far just speculation based on a Miller Painting or probably a sketch that
seems to show a tent that might be a pyramid. And of course the mention of
Pyramid tents being used in 1841 and 46, which don't count for the modern
Rendezvous scene since the common cut off date is "In the Rocky Mt.s Prior
to 1840" not after.

Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:34:30 -0400
From: "D. Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents

But Roger, if they would have had it....<G>
D



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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:41:04 -0600
From: Todd Glover <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Ferris Map

I will second John's comments about the Ferris map he just purchased.
This is the one that Dr. Gowans spoke about at the symposium last
September and it was he who was responsible for getting it reproduced. It
does make a great wall hanger also. They are becoming scarce real quick.
I think you may still be able to get some from the Fort Bridger Museum
also, but you'd better hurry.

"Teton" Todd D. Glover
http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html

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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:57:21 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents

Dennis,

Thank you for your very valuable contribution to the discussion. <G>

Capt. Lahti'


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Miles" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents


> But Roger, if they would have had it....<G>
> D
>
>
>
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Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:21:27 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents

and the bottom line is?????

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Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:31:01 -0400
From: "D. Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pyramid tents

But Roger, It really all boils down to that, doesn't it?<G>
D



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Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:28:04 -0600
From: "Clay J. Landry" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Going Indian versus Puritains

This discussion of Euro-Americans adopting native American dress  of the
breech clout and leggings is very interesting to me
and in fact the very topic-with a little twist-that  instigated my foray
into the research and writing arena. In the mid  1980's I had the good
fortune to encounter two very fine historians and seminar presenters-Bill
Brown and John Luzader. Both of these
men had a common theme in their talks on period clothing-i.e. Anglo's or
whites would not wear breech clout and leggings for several reasons-first
and foremost is that these men were products of a strict Puritan society and
such beliefs would condemn them in the eyes of their peers --should they
stoop so low as to go "savage" in their dress. Bill and John  both had
several other reasons in their arguments -which I will leave alone for the
sake of time and space.

For several reasons I was not totally convinced by their arguments and set
out to make my own determination- three years of digging, reading and
researching resulted in a 1991 essay entitled "Going Indian-the use of
Leggings and breech Clout by the Euro-American trappers of the  Pre-1840
Rocky Mountain Fur Trade". This paper ended up quite lengthy so was not a
good prospect for magazine publishing-but Bill Scurlock did recommend that I
use the information as the basis for a chapter in his Book of Buckskining on
mountain man clothing. With some additional information and help from my
friend Allen Chronister the chapter was written.

The points that I would like to make on "Going Indian" as a result of  this
study and subsequent findings are:
1. There is a documented precedent for whites wearing breech clout and
leggings on the Eastern Ohio frontier the late 1700's-this is recorded by
Doddridge and Cresswell-to the extent that the young men wore this grab to
church on Sunday-causing the young Ladies in the congregation to be quite
distracted from the service.
2. One of the sergeants of the Lewis and Clark Expedition records that  on
one hot August day the men wore nothing but a breech clout. Then there is
the comments of Charles McKenzie that Angela mentioned-here is a guy who is
a trader of status in a fur company and he admits that he dressed "Indian".
His excuse was that as he walked through camp the dogs barked at him unless
he was dressed like the natives!!
3.The records of the Astorian enterprise, in 1811, list some 10 to 15  men
buying "breech flaps  and leggings" before they embarked from their winter
camp on the Nodaway River.
4. The information on the breech clout and leggings being traded for by the
men of the Jed Smith trapping brigades has already been mentioned. Whether
you can prove from the ledger entries that the men actually wore this
garment combination is of course speculation-however these entries do prove
that leggings and breech clouts were carried in the stores of trade goods in
the early 1820's.
5. However questionable the entire Pattie story and narrative is, he does
state that he was wearing leggings and a red breech clout.
6. Then there is the question of  "did the trappers actually want to look
and dress Indian?"A quote from Irving's book about Captain Bonneville gives
an indication-"You cannot pay a free trapper a greater compliment than to
persuade him you have mistaken him for an Indian brave; and in truth the
counterfeit is complete. His hair suffered to attain great length, is
carefully combed out, and either left to fall carelessly over his shoulders,
or plaited neatly and tied up in otter skins of parti-colored ribbons. A
hunting shirt of ruffled calico of bright dyes, or of ornamented leather,
falls to his knee: below which, curiously fashioned leggings, ornamented
with strings, fringes, and a profusion of hawks' bells, reach to a costly
pair of moccasins.... Such is the account given by Captain Bonneville ".
7. Another part of this "wanting to look Indian" question is "just who were
these trappers and mountaineers? what were their origins??  We have had some
discussion on this list about many being educated men-however there is
another demographic that needs examing; "Demographics of the men
participating in the Rocky Mountain fur trade indicate that a large portion
of the camp keepers, rivermen and trappers were either French-Canadian or
French-American. Historians Carter and Spencer project that 60% of the 3000
men estimated to have participated in the fur trade of the Rockies were of
this ethnic back-ground.  These same researchers denote that the French
engage was characterized as having a "greater illiteracy and intermixture
with Indians" than his American counterpart. These statistics demonstrate
that a majority of the mountaineers came from an ethnic background, French,
which not only had very limited exposure to the Euroamerican societal
restrictions, but was also a nationality renown for their ability to adapt
and mix with native American cultures. Warren A. Ferris' journal provides
support to these statistics when he makes the following statement, "One half
of these men (trappers) are Canadians, and Half-breeds, who speak French,
and some both French and English; the remainder are principally Americans,
from every part of the United States."

One conclusion that could be drawn from all of this is that for clearly 1/2
of the mountaineers, -(the portion of these men who were of mixed bloods)--
especially those free trappers with Indian wives---that wearing a breech
clout and leggings was not a huge breech of deportment nor considered
uncivilized and--that yes-a few Euro-Americans can be documented to have
worn a breech clout.


Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Teasing--a rant (was: Denim)


>
> Padre Rolf,
>
> Thanks for taking the time to dig out this information but may I
> respectfully suggest that there is some question remaining as to what it
> means?
>
> There certainly is no doubt that European trappers, etc. wore mocs and
> leggings. They are widely pictured in Miller's field sketches being worn
(as
> to mocs) with pantaloons and etc. and the legging is a common enough
garment
> shown being worn over pantaloons and even more likely, knee britches.
>
> The information below shows two kinds of leggings on account but are they
> Indian leggings or the common legging worn by the aforementioned trapper
> over European leg wear?
>
> The reference you share about breech clouts demonstrates that they were
sold
> in commerce amongst traders and trappers but for what purpose? Were these
> buyers using them as personal wear (which is possible) or were they using
> them as gifts or goods to be traded. I would imagine cloth breech clouts
to
> be a desirable item of clothing by Native Americans.
>
> So how well have we really answered the question beyond the few notables
> that were recently mentioned who were known to dress Indian, which in my
> mind is something more than just wearing leggings and mocs but probably
> includes the breech clout, war shirt etc?
>
> And a further thought. Were those breech clouts an outer garment as the
> Indian wore them or were they an undergarment as worn by certain cultures
> around the world as late as the Second World War? (Japanese soldiers used
> them)
>
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
> Sept. 21, 1826
>         John Gaiter               Debit
>         1 pair sheep skin leggins         $1.50
>         1 Deer Skin                                   $1.25
>
> Oct. 24, 1826
>         Abraham Laplant     Credit
>         By difference in Breech
>         Cloths  250 cts-------                   $2.50
>
> also a couple of credits for "Mockasons"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>





- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:00:40 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent

Larry,
If you can get away with it, go for it. Show and Tell Rendezvous are what
they are. Will I be looking at youre smiling face at the Western? This is
one camp I wouldn't miss, the chance will only happen once.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent
>Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001, 10:24 AM
>

>Ole,
>    Not in California.  We don't allow setup after drop.  You drop, drive
>outa camp THEN set up.  You Utah boys outta know better.
>
>Larry Huber
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 7:35 AM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent
>
>
>> Linda,
>> Park and Drop= Put everything you own for camping in a truck, drive to
>camp
>> spot drop your stuff, set up, remove truck, change clothes and you are
>done.
>> Its how I get the wife and kidlet to go with me.
>> Ole
>> ----------
>> >From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
>> >To: [e-mail]
>> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent
>> >Date: Thu, Apr 19, 2001, 1:16 PM
>> >
>>
>> >Ok...what is a park and drop??  Is that different than you have ONe hour
>to get
>> >out of Dodge.....  And that is a mighty small camp.... at "15"x25"
>"?????
>> >Knowing it is bigger than that, I hope, Do you put the tent around the
>car???  I
>> >did that once.  Drove them crazy.
>> >
>> >Linda Holley
>> >
>> >"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:
>> >
>> >> John,
>> >> That is the same understanding that I have. currently I am using the
>> >> connical tent which dates back to French Military of 1760, it is a one
>pole
>> >> tent an made by "Tent Smith" it is much better looking than the pyramid
>in
>> >> my opinion. "Tent Smith" also made my 15"X25" Marque that I use for the
>> >> "Park and Drop" camps they are by far the best tent makers I have ever
>seen.
>> >> YMOS
>> >> Ole # 718
>> >> ----------
>> >> >From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
>> >> >To: [e-mail]
>> >> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 49er tent
>> >> >Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001, 8:05 PM
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> >At 09:31 PM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >> >>What did you find about pyramid tents?
>> >> >>Lanney
>> >> >
>> >> >Lanney & whomever first asked about 49er miner tents,
>> >> >
>> >> >Peter & Deborah Marques http://www.tentsmiths.com/
>> >> >
>> >> >know more about tents than anyone else I know.  I have been very
>pleased
>> >> >with everything I've bought from them and impressed by other of their
>> >> >products I've seen.  They have the following information on their web
>site.
>> >> >
>> >> >begin quote............."
>> >> >                           PYRAMID TENTS
>> >> >Pyramid (also called Miner's) tents have become very popular in the
>last
>> >> >few years. They have a very thin and short history.
>> >> >Although the design is a natural for contorting canvas, the first
>reference
>> >> >we know of was a gentleman in the British Army who made every attempt
>to
>> >> >get the tent style accepted by the quartermaster division. His idea
>was to
>> >> >have the corners held down with bayonets and the pole to be a Brown
>Bess
>> >> >musket. Needless to say it was another seventy five years before we
>> >> >actually find the design in use.
>> >> >Parkman mentions the Pyramid tent in his journal of 1846 while on the
>> >> >Oregon Trail. As cameras came into use, the tent is recorded in
>photographs
>> >> >of cattle drives and with exterior poles next to early motor vehicles
>at
>> >> >picnic/ camping trips.
>> >> >
>> >> >"end quote..................
>> >> >
>> >> >John...
>> >> >John T. Kramer, maker of:
>> >> >
>> >> >Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>> >> > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>> >> >        >>>As good as old!<<<
>> >> >
>> >> ><http://www.kramerize.com/>
>> >> >
>> >> >mail to: <[e-mail]>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >----------------------
>> >> >hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------
>> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>> >
>> >
>> >----------------------
>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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