in your article in the b.o.b.#7 on clothing of the rocky mt. trapper 1820 to
1840 you mention fabrics used for legwear as being duck, denim,
fustian,wool, and tow. I'm particularly interested in denim. I read
somewhere that denim is short for "Dennimes France", it's place of origin.
how long has denim been around? Is the modern day denim used in say, Levi's
the same as the old? I've noticed in miller paintings, he shows his subject
wearing light blue trousers. could these be made of faded indigo blue denim?
if modern denim is the same, would a pair of indigo denim, "fall front"
trousers be appropriate?
respectfully; Tom Ballstaedt
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:41:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Buck Conner <buck_conner@email.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega
Coopers were a dime a dozen in the old days. Barrels were the most common
kind of shipping material and wood was cheap. Wood cost no more than the
effort to collect it. Think of the barrel as cardboard boxes. There wasn't
much of an effort to reuse barrels. Usually they went one way and ended up
as firewood after they were opened. Seems odd to me but this is what I was
told at Williamsburg.
Larry Huber
- -------------------------
Early barrels had the wooden rings and later ones had the iron rings which became tools and weapons after the wood was gone for the Native American according to many accounts on westward movement, that must be where we get the throw away attitude - from our forefathers !
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:58:35 EST
From: Traphand@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega
what I have used for a small leak is fine powder cinnamon.fill the keg with
water add the cinnamon say about a handful put it unto the keg As the water
leaks out the cinnamon flowing on top of the water finds the spot it is
leaking from and plugs the leak.Empty water and refill.
Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
Traphand@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:12:07 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca>
Subject: MtMan-List: Iroquois
Just to set the record straight (from the Iroquois perspective) this is the
history of my people (speaking as a Seneca):
At the time when the Dutch landed (first) in New England, the Five Nations
(and many others) already had extensive trade routes crossing the continent.
The Iroquois aligned themselves with the Dutch (as exclusive distributors,
to use today's terms). Mean while, to the north, the French had established
on the St. Lawrence River and had trading relations with the more northerly
tribes (Huron, Ottawa, etc.) There was a long standing and bloody rivalry
between the French allies and the Dutch allies. When the British came to New
York, Albany became the main political centre for the new British/Iroquois
alliance.
At the time of the American revolution, the Five Nations had had a very
long-standing relationship with the British (from about 1600) and the
decision split the Five Nations for the first time ever. (The Great League
of Peace is deemed to have been established around 1400, as near as anyone
can determine.) The Council Fire at Onondaga was extinguished (for the first
time ever) and a large number of People moved north of Niagara and the St.
Lawrence to fight for the British. Some of the People remained neutral and
refused to fight. Others of the League fought for the Americans.
Unfortunately, when it was all over, neither the British nor the Americans
made any significant provisions in the peace treaty for their Five Nations
allies.
The Council Fire at Onandaga was not re-lit nor was the rift in the Five
Nations fully healed for almost 100 years.
As to Iroquois in the west, my people spoke of Iroquois traders having been
to the Pacific before whitemen. It is said that Cook met an Iroquois among
the coastal Natives when he landed on the west coast. That is what is said.
That is the history as it is remembered by my people.
Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:35:57 -0800
From: "ALAN AVERY" <aavery@telus.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega
I have also used this method, and it seems to work well. As a bonus, the
cinnamon leaves an agreeable taste in the water!
Black Knife
Alan Avery
- -----Original Message-----
From: Traphand@aol.com <Traphand@aol.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: March 27, 2001 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Oak kega
what I have used for a small leak is fine powder cinnamon.fill the keg with
water add the cinnamon say about a handful put it unto the keg As the water
leaks out the cinnamon flowing on top of the water finds the spot it is
leaking from and plugs the leak.Empty water and refill.
Traphand
Rick Petzoldt
Traphand@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:46:42 -0700
From: "Clay J. Landry" <landry@mcn.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question for clay landry
According to Montgomery's book on textiles in America denim was used and
available in the 1700's. I have seen references to gray, brown and blue
denim in the trade ledgers of the American Fur Company. In 1989 at Montana
Centennial Rendezvous I was fortunate enough to attend Bill Brown's (US Park
Service-historic clothing expert) talk on period clothing. Bill had a
several shirts from the 1800's and a most interesting pair of pantaloons and
matching coat-both made from blue denim!! Bill had discovered these articles
inside an old sofa being used as stuffing!! He determined that these items
were from the early 1800's. The denim that we see in Levis is somewhat
different from the denim I saw in these original pieces-the weave was not
as tight as Levis and the yarn was of larger diameter causing the fabric to
be somewhat fuller and softer than Levi denim. Bill said that many original
denims were also a wool blend. A blue wool/ denim fabric called "Country
cloth"-purchased from Charlie Childs in Ohio is a very good replication of
the old denim/wool blend according to Bill. I have also purchased plain
white denim at fabric stores and dyed it gray or brown-after dying and
washing these fabrics very closely resemble the texture and feel of the
originals.
I am not sure what Miller was depicting in his paintings of blue leg
wear-as blue wool pantaloons were also very popular and very common by the
1830's but to answer your question-yes- blue Indigo denim pantaloons-fall
front- can be documented as available and used by men of the Fur trade.
Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Ballstaedt <tphsb@earthlink.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 10:47 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: question for clay landry
> in your article in the b.o.b.#7 on clothing of the rocky mt. trapper 1820
to
> 1840 you mention fabrics used for legwear as being duck, denim,
> fustian,wool, and tow. I'm particularly interested in denim. I read
> somewhere that denim is short for "Dennimes France", it's place of origin.
> how long has denim been around? Is the modern day denim used in say,
Levi's
> the same as the old? I've noticed in miller paintings, he shows his
subject
> wearing light blue trousers. could these be made of faded indigo blue
denim?
> if modern denim is the same, would a pair of indigo denim, "fall front"
> trousers be appropriate?
> respectfully; Tom Ballstaedt
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:47:25 EST
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Denim
- --part1_a2.1219e4da.27f399cd_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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> <<that many original denims were also a wool blend. A blue wool/ denim
> fabric called "Country cloth"-purchased from Charlie Childs in Ohio is a
> very good replication of the old denim/wool blend according to Bill. I
> have also purchased plain white denim at fabric stores and dyed it gray or
> brown-after dying >>
A word of warning if you choose to use denim, which I agree existed and was
used earlier than most think. I had a pair of drop front breeches made for
me by a top name sutler out of stock brown denum/canvas and got nothing but
grief from my so called buddies. Only by stopping use of them did I escape a
camp name of "Carhartts". If you choose to wear blue denim you will get
constant questions about documentation and such from the strict historical
stitch counters and some events may tell you (based on their research) that
they are not acceptable at the event.
Now I'm not saying don't do it if you are sure of your history and
documentation, I'm just saying that I found redyeing my breeches in summac
and iron to change the color made life easier around the camp. It took less
time to dye the fabric then it would have to educate the 1,000's of
reinactors and public.
Y.M.O.S.
C.T. Oakes
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><<that many original denims were also a wool blend. A blue wool/ denim
<BR>fabric called "Country cloth"-purchased from Charlie Childs in Ohio is a
<BR>very good replication of the old denim/wool blend according to Bill. I
<BR>have also purchased plain white denim at fabric stores and dyed it gray or
<BR>brown-after dying >></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>A word of warning if you choose to use denim, which I agree existed and was
<BR>used earlier than most think. I had a pair of drop front breeches made for
<BR>me by a top name sutler out of stock brown denum/canvas and got nothing but
<BR>grief from my so called buddies. Only by stopping use of them did I escape a
<BR>camp name of "Carhartts". If you choose to wear blue denim you will get
<BR>constant questions about documentation and such from the strict historical
<BR>stitch counters and some events may tell you (based on their research) that
<BR>they are not acceptable at the event.
<BR>
<BR>Now I'm not saying don't do it if you are sure of your history and
<BR>documentation, I'm just saying that I found redyeing my breeches in summac
<BR>and iron to change the color made life easier around the camp. It took less
<BR>time to dye the fabric then it would have to educate the 1,000's of
<BR>reinactors and public.
<BR>
<BR>Y.M.O.S.
<BR>
<BR>C.T. Oakes</FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 13:34:28 -0700
From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Denim
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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If I was the type that listened to the trendy popular OPINION of my =
contemporaries. I would not be in this hobby. IF I make myself a cool =
pair of denim trousers, let em talk.
see ya on the trail; Tom
Oh and by the way, many thanks to Clay for the good imformation
----- Original Message -----=20
From: CTOAKES@aol.com=20
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Denim
<<that many original denims were also a wool blend. A blue wool/ =
denim=20
fabric called "Country cloth"-purchased from Charlie Childs in Ohio =
is a=20
very good replication of the old denim/wool blend according to Bill. =
I=20
have also purchased plain white denim at fabric stores and dyed it =
gray or=20
brown-after dying >>
A word of warning if you choose to use denim, which I agree existed =
and was=20
used earlier than most think. I had a pair of drop front breeches =
made for=20
me by a top name sutler out of stock brown denum/canvas and got =
nothing but=20
grief from my so called buddies. Only by stopping use of them did I =
escape a=20
camp name of "Carhartts". If you choose to wear blue denim you will =
get=20
constant questions about documentation and such from the strict =
historical=20
stitch counters and some events may tell you (based on their research) =
that=20
they are not acceptable at the event. =20
Now I'm not saying don't do it if you are sure of your history and=20
documentation, I'm just saying that I found redyeing my breeches in =
summac=20
and iron to change the color made life easier around the camp. It =
took less=20
time to dye the fabric then it would have to educate the 1,000's of=20
reinactors and public.=20
Y.M.O.S.=20
C.T. Oakes=20
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