Here we go again , this is why I do not enjoy this list. Some of you think you
know it all.........I am not trying to be smart like some of you. There are alot
of very great people on this list but some of you,well.....................
ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:
> > Can anyone help me , I would like to get off this list.It is a great way to
> > get info, but I get very tired of it
>
> You can't be reading it too close because the information you seek is at the
> bottom of every mail you receive from this list. I suppose the obvious is
> too blatant!!
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:48:26 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list.......
In a message dated 2/5/01 8:44:32 AM, ThisOldFox@aol.com writes:
<< but I get very tired of it
You can't be reading it too close because the information you seek is at the
bottom of every mail you receive from this list. I suppose the obvious is
too blatant!! >>
You know TOF....I sure get tired of your bad mouth too ....and he's not even
on your list..... Glad there's a delete button for most of your posts.
Magpie
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:52:03 EST
From: ThisOldFox@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list.......
> Here we go again , this is why I do not enjoy this list. Some of you think
> you know it all.........
No, we just state the obvious. If we were sitting at the campfire and you
asked where the canteen was, I would say....."It's right in front of you. Why
don't you look before you ask." Stating the obvious has absolutely nothing
with knowing it all.
>I am not trying to be smart like some of you.
Then I hope you are not a school teacher at Virden. I would be concerned
about my kid's education.
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 14:05:29 -0600
From: don shero <deshero@pionet.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: What a trapper would have/ steel
Hello all,
Huffman photographed indians and buffalo hunters in Montana in 1870's
and 80's. He did photo skinners with a steel,, and they were also
listed as purchases {3} with 60 skinning knives. {and 50 lbs of powder
for 550 lbs lead.}
Surely a knife man like a trapper used one?
Meat cutters use the knife on the smooth steel for cutting meat, razor
sharp, thin edge.
Butchers skinning hides and/or cutting tendons, etc. use a rough steel,
giving not quite as sharp an edge, a little bigger teeth, more sawing
effect.
I would carry both to the mountains, but if I had only one, would make
do with the rough steel.
Don
Avoid Irishmen-usless for Burnett-let him have what he wants
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:38:50 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: What a trapper would have!
In a message dated 2/5/1 07:39:59 AM, olebjensen@earthlink.net writes:
<<Trappers however were the working class, they took the tools of
there trade and as many comforts that they could carry, to them it's not a
hobby it is there life.>>
Documentation???
RJ
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:44:13 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Research
In a message dated 2/5/1 08:51:13 AM, hawknest4@juno.com writes:
<<wc also said" I'd reather be anywhere than in philidelphia"
"HAWK">>
Hawk
I think he got his wish.
RJ
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 14:46:07 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: archive indexing
Poorboy,
Unanswerable questions are debated endlessly with the demand for more and
more documentation, of that which can't be documented; and still it is
demanded ever more loudly. Most often the demands are by those who've
never provided anything of value to the discussions. No one wrote down how
they wiped their ass in 1836, but, I'm pretty sure they did. In Britain in
the 1700's there were at least two slang terms for toilet paper, it doesn't
mean any made it to the mountains. If any one did write it down the
Victorians burned it.
Did folks treat their ramrods in 1823 with anything? Who knows? Who
cares? If they did in the Rocky Mountains (the area and period of our
interest) it was with whatever grease they had at hand. This is a
variation of a topic that has been discussed many, many, many times before:
the subject has been worn out. In the mountains grease was grease and good
money wasn't often wasted foolishly on something always available free. We
can document what craftsmen in the settlements did only a little better;
when it came to small details of everyday life there is a great deal we can
never be certain of. In terms of oils very little shows up on trade lists
of the period. Hence my first post in this series listed several of the
animal fats which would have been available to them; then.
You seem to think your time is more valuable than mine. I have spent far
more than 6 hours writing, proofing and editing many of the postings I have
made. Writing for me is a difficult chore; I have attempted to provide
compleat answers in my postings. If you want to know what I think of
modern boiled linseed oil (I don't consider it very useful) you will have
to do a little digging in the archives. Until such time as I feel it is
appropriate to comment further. That is my choice to make -- not
yours. Yours is to choose whether or not you want to know, and are willing
to expend a little effort to find out.
You complained of the poor archiving and indexing so I offered you a job
you haven't chosen to take up, the things we wish to see done better around
here are done by those who want to see improvements; not by the rest of us
to satisfy your whim.
You contacted me privately off list demanding more answers and then when I
failed to respond to your complete satisfaction chose to whine
publicly. You had to consciously address your rant to the list, if you had
hit reply it would only have been sent to me.
You spent a measly 6 hours in the archives and learned nothing worth
knowing? I have never gone to the archives for more than 15 minutes that I
didn't pick up something useful that I missed when it was first
posted. Maybe it wasn't what I started out looking for, but, that is the
joy of research and study.
Most of the sources I work from are not available. In some cases I own the
only copy in the world. Much of what I've learned was from others who
worked from materials of which there are no other copies; or who learned
from their own doing. Some of my sources are 6th generation photocopies
barely legible. Many of my sources have been lost to me over the years and
I have only what I remember or made notes of. Much of what I've learned
has been in the doing hence I am the documentation. If you think I'm wrong
do your own research.
I have written on the use of various grease & oils and the appropriateness
of same many times over the past several years. Your questions offer no
potential for great or profound revelations. I took offense at your ever
more strident attitude and my response became more curt with your
increasing demands. Simple questions often require complex answers. Quick
partial answers too oft generate misunderstandings and misinterpretations.
Some of the folks who provide volumes of useful information on this list
are exceedingly gracious. I am not one of them, I am a curmudgeon who
often can't believe the gracious ones can remain so accommodating in the
face of gross rudeness.
I have grown weary of the lazy who expect to be spoon fed every little
detail they think they want to know. I am tired of those who think they
have some entitlement to what others have learned, they have caused me to
grow quite testy in answering their silly little questions every time they
dream one up.
I do not respond every time somebody brings up the use of some modern
innovation; or those who make a substitution leap without knowing the full
properties of the materials they recommend. I most often ignore those who
think they offer something of value recommending WD-40 or such. On
occasion the suggestions offer unforeseen hazards like back when someone
started promoting the use of oxidizers as an ingredient for bore
solvent. On occasion it takes a lot of several peoples time to beat down
the bad and worse ideas.
By recent example: Diesel fuel was suggested as the writer, I assume,
assumed it was about like coal oil as petroleum derived kerosene replaced
coal oil and kerosene is sort of kind of like diesel fuel. It doesn't seem
to have been considered that coal oil was cutting edge technology before
1850 not much seen in this country, and certainly not commonly available in
the Rockies. Not to mention that diesel fuel bears little resemblance to
coal oil. We try and study how things were not how they might of been.
The original question regarded increasing flexibility of ramrods, I offered
the one old method I am aware of which might offer some benefit, oil
finishes have not often been claimed to improve flexibility, they are
considered preservative treatments. Decaying horse shit is a period
material that may improve flexibility of ramrods, it was available in the
mountains; as it is on this list. The one certain feature that helps is
straight grain through the entire length.
If you want to know something other than what is offered --- do the
work. Otherwise be thankful for what you get. My time is not yours to
command.
John...
"Never ascribe to malice that which is
adequately explained by incompetence."
Napoleon Bonaparte.
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:56:01 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list.......
In a message dated 2/5/1 08:57:16 AM, neigh@marsaglia.com writes:
<<Can anyone help me , I would like to get off this list.It is a great way to
get
info, but I get very tired of it. Some of you need to go into a chat
room.............>>
This is a very valid statement in my estimation. A lot of time and space is
wasted with what should be "chat room" activity. Too deep for me, but can
anyone initiate such as suggested?
RJames
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:58:21 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list.......
It's right in front of you. Why
> don't you look before you ask."
Just saying "It's right in front of you" with a smile on your face "<G>"
goes down a lot better than the part about "Why don't you look before you
ask".
It takes up a hell of a lot less band width and causes a lot fewer hard
feelings to just say "Try the link at the bottom of each post on this list".
Or just not saying anything at all.
> Then I hope you are not a school teacher at Virden. I would be concerned
> about my kid's education.
For all we know this person is a student. Nice image we are building here
with the education folks or young people.
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:47:57 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tobacco used as insect repellant (1700-1843)(other stuff)
In a message dated 2/5/1 10:37:55 AM, hawknest4@juno.com writes:
<<best natural bug repelant i have found is made out of penneroyal >>
I have an old book,"Camping & Woodcraft" by Kephart copywrite date 1917 that
cites oil of pennyroyal in its list of "bug-offs". Other ingredients in
various formulas and ratios include: Oil of cintronella, spirits of camphor,
oil of cedar, pine tar, creosote, oil of peppermint, oil of bergamot, quassia
and such vehicles as vasaline and olive oil. Now 1917 is not 1817, but it is
a lot closer to 1837 than a 200l talk sheet. The book itself is a treasure
of wood-lore and survival. It came out just before the U.S. involvement in
WW I and talks about "dessicated food" for rations and draws a lot from
Hudsons' Bay information sources.
Richard James
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:59:39 -0800
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: RAMRODS AND BUTCHER'S STEELS
OK folks,
I'll admit, I have only been half way following these threads but here are
some points :
Ramrods :
Someone mentioned that 'wiping stcks' were traded at rendezvous. I can
find no such reference in the archives.
Nearly all original ramrods I have seen were tapered. Therefore a one
size fits all 'wiping stick' traded at rendezvous would not be a going
concern.
As to soaking ramrods in oil to make them more flexible, I can't find any
refernce to that either prior to the 1880's.
One tip on soaking ramrods : Do all your tapering, smoothing, and
installing the rod tip before soaking. Once they have been soaked in oil
(what ever type) whittling,sanding, or scraping becomes a major problem.
Just my experience.
Butcher's Steels :
Here again folks, I can find no reference to them being traded at
rendezvous. Sorry !
Pendleton
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 14:41:12 -0800
From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger Mountianman Rendezvous in Wyoming
Hi
Does anyone have any information about a "Jim Bridger Mountianman
Rendezvous in Wyoming"? Had a fella email me looking for information on
where and when, and I don't have any on this particular event.
Regards from Idaho
Lee Newbill
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:36:28 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: archive indexing
In a message dated 2/5/1 01:49:10 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes:
(. . . several things, including:)
<<You seem to think your time is more valuable than mine. I have spent far
more than 6 hours writing, proofing and editing many of the postings I have
made. Writing for me is a difficult chore; I have attempted to provide
compleat answers in my postings. . . . . archiving and indexing so I offered
you a job
. . . . .the things we wish to see done better around here are done by those
who want to see improvements;
Earlier today there was a complaint that much of what we see on this posting
belongs on a chat list as it is from and individual to another individual -
meaning the rest of us don't care sick'um for what is posted, BUT it is
taking our time.
Courtesy has been asked for in the instance of long quotes from earlier
posted messages when exerpts would have far better served the purpose.
And now a complaint of my own: Repeatedly messages come out saying "mountain
men did . . . . or mountain men did . . . .." with no sources, no
documentation and in fact and obviously a contemporary opinion - but
presented as if it were documented fact. We don't know what trappers
thought - unless it is in their journals. No one has documented anything
about soaking ramrods and we can't produce a single inventory of possible
bags contents.
Now then: I endorse the statements of others as noted and quoted above. I
set into message my own feelings. Now - a presumption - I think many good
folks are wasting hundreds of unnecessary hours on these screens because we
have no code of discipline and I am asking for this:
State your source or declaire you are stating your opinion.
Person to person chatter should be addressed that way - person to person.
Think "courtesy" and respect for others' time when you decide to enter upon
the screen.
I know how subscribers like to jump on any little point of contention so have
your best shot at me on this one. I'll take your hits. But as you begin,
just ask "Is this really fair use of the time of other people whose common
interest in history I profess to respect?"
Most Sincerely,
Richard James
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:29:04 -0600
From: Virden High School <neigh@marsaglia.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list.......
I would not have a canteen at a rendezvoo............maybe a jug of mead.......
ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote:
> > Here we go again , this is why I do not enjoy this list. Some of you think
> > you know it all.........
>
> No, we just state the obvious. If we were sitting at the campfire and you
> asked where the canteen was, I would say....."It's right in front of you. Why
> don't you look before you ask." Stating the obvious has absolutely nothing
> with knowing it all.
>
> >I am not trying to be smart like some of you.
>
> Then I hope you are not a school teacher at Virden. I would be concerned
> about my kid's education.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:50:08 -0500
From: "Dennis Earp" <96mfg@hspower.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soaking Hickory Ramrods to improve flexibility?
Hawk,
Can you still find the old fashion coal oil? The kerosene they sell today
is not the same thing. I haven't been able to find coal oil in this area.
Thanks,
Dennis
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <hawknest4@juno.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2001 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soaking Hickory Ramrods to improve flexibility?
> have tried the olive oil---doesnt seem to want to penitrate as well as
> the thinner coil oil or decil would take a bit of the other oil and dont
> have any at hand or i would try it---as long as you fill the pores of the
> wood complete it makes a more homogenious rod thus the flexibility and
> strength and toughness in my estimation either would work in that contex
> but would have to test it over time to prove its reliability in my
> estimation----
>
> just my humbel opiunion of course
>
> Hawk
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:47:57 -0600
From: "Ethan Sudman" <EthanSudman@home.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Please, please, PLEASE
It doesn't take up all that much bandwidth. It shouldn't be a problem if you
have a good modem, and if not the wait won't kill you; should have updated
sooner anyway.
- - Ethan Sudman (ethansudman@home.com)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Geisinger <poorboy@ieway.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Please, please, PLEASE
> Klahowya Ethan,
>
> >Why not? It's better that way. Otherwise people don't have any idea what
> you're talking about when you reply to a previous message.<
>
> It is only necessary to quote a line or two, to make everyone else aware
of
> what you are responding to. Quoting entire messages only uses up valuable
> bandwidth, and makes the archives difficult to use.
> YMOS
> PoorBoy
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:36:52 -0600
From: Virden High School <neigh@marsaglia.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list.......
No I am not a school teacher just love the history...............maybe the
person who said glad they are not teaching my kids should get a life...........
Roger Lahti wrote:
> It's right in front of you. Why
> > don't you look before you ask."
>
> Just saying "It's right in front of you" with a smile on your face "<G>"
> goes down a lot better than the part about "Why don't you look before you
> ask".
>
> It takes up a hell of a lot less band width and causes a lot fewer hard
> feelings to just say "Try the link at the bottom of each post on this list".
> Or just not saying anything at all.
>
> > Then I hope you are not a school teacher at Virden. I would be concerned
> > about my kid's education.
>
> For all we know this person is a student. Nice image we are building here
> with the education folks or young people.
>
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:49:50 -0500
From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Soaking Hickory Ramrods to improve flexibility?
FWIW, I rub my ramrod with whatever grease is handy after a day afield, be
it deer fat, beaver or bacon from a porkeater ...... As I think I read
earlier.. "grease is grease" And I wouldn't want my ramrod or anything else
I carry to the field, for that matter to smell like coal oil, kerosene
diesel fuel or a New Orleans cathouse.... Seems to me that would give sharp
nosed critters a heads up...
D
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:09:52 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger Mountianman Rendezvous in Wyoming
In a message dated 2/5/1 03:34:40 PM, bluethistle@potlatch.com writes:
<<Does anyone have any information about a "Jim Bridger Mountianman
Rendezvous in Wyoming"? >>
Could be he is referencing the AMM gathering on Jim's birthday at the fort,
or - could be he saw the A&E special and wants to know about the Fort Bridger
Rendezvous held at the Fort every Labor Day week end - Thursday (set-up and
. . . ), Friday, Saturday, Sunday Monday.
See what he says. Maybe he wants to challenge Moki's wife for knife and axe.
RJames
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Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 18:29:42 -0500
From: Marc Stewart <sardog1@att.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: bug repellant
"best natural bug repelant i have found is made out of penneroyal and
it
also keeps the ticks off similar"
It does work quite well, but beware. Pennyroyal is poisonous so be
sure to keep it away from pets and small children please.
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 15:43:15 -0800
From: Lee Newbill <bluethistle@potlatch.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger Mountianman Rendezvous in Wyoming
> RJames wrote:
> Could be he is referencing the AMM gathering on Jim's birthday at the fort,
> or - could be he saw the A&E special and wants to know about the Fort Bridger
> Rendezvous held at the Fort every Labor Day week end - Thursday (set-up and
> . . . ), Friday, Saturday, Sunday Monday.
Thank you Sir, I believe it was the labor day event from his description. Based
on your info, I ran a websearch and found the Fort Bridger site with the annual
events listing. I will send him an email with that website and their email
address.
I appreciate your help.
Lee Newbill
N. Idaho
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:37:50 EST
From: HikingOnThru@cs.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Tobacco used as insect repellant (1700-1843)
In a message dated 2/4/01 8:59:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, tjewell@home.com
writes:
<< I've also heard that South American natives use it in a very concentrated
form as a poison on their blow gun darts and arrows for hunting birds and
small mammals.
I'll have to see what I can find about using tobacco as a repellent. I'll
let you know if I come up with anything.
>>
I am sure others will have differing opinions, but I would have to say it
should not be used in direct contact with the skin or where it could come
into contact with the skin. I was going to make up a tobacco tea to use as
the insecticide as mentioned earlier (works great) and was warned by a
physician I work with to avoid getting it on me. He told me nicotine
poisoning can cause some irreparable damage that catches up with you over the
long term. I hope he is wrong about that since I am not the most careful
person about keeping stuff like that off me when using it!!! Besides, too
many other things to use that are natural for insect repellent. Beaver
castor (if you can stand it), crush up mosqito bush, cedar essence, citrus
essences. Of course, my dad has dipped and chewed off and on for close to
twenty-five years and has yet to be bit on the lips!!!!
- -C.Kent
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:43:55 EST
From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Bent's Fort Activities in late July
- --part1_21.70be441.27b0a2cb_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I understand that they are holding mountain man activities at the end of
July, but do not know they specifics. Is anybody on the list attending? We
are scheduling the St. Vrain reunion for the same weekend in July, and
ideally would like to integrate the two. Yes, we have been in touch with the
Fort :)
- --part1_21.70be441.27b0a2cb_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SCRIPT" FACE="Comic Sans MS" LANG="0">I understand that they are holding mountain man activities at the end of
<BR>July, but do not know they specifics. Is anybody on the list attending? We
<BR>are scheduling the St. Vrain reunion for the same weekend in July, and
<BR>ideally would like to integrate the two. Yes, we have been in touch with the
<BR>Fort :) </FONT></HTML>
- --part1_21.70be441.27b0a2cb_boundary--
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Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:55:09 -0600
From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Please, please, PLEASE
OH I can cut and paste, and highlight and backspace, that's not the =
issue. I was responding to the idea that when I hit the reply button, =
that only the highlighted text would be in the reply, which is NOT how =
Microsoft's clipboard dialogs work.
'Nuff said, this is not nearly as interesting as the Fur Trade. I =
program for a living, ad the last thing I want to talk about is =
computers. =3D)
Todd
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