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From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #717 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, January 27 2001 Volume 01 : Number 717 In this issue: -áááááá MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Suspenders -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wood Wheels -áááááá MtMan-List: Speaking of weels... -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wood Wheels -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Suspenders -áááááá MtMan-List: Powder, caps/flint, patch, lube, ball, and barrel -áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Bullet molds -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powder, caps/flint, patch, lube, ball, and barrel -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Suspenders -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Powder, caps/flint, patch, lube, ball, and barrel -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá MtMan-List: Was bullet molds -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Bullet molds(ball and patch tightness) -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá MtMan-List: braces/suspenders -áááááá MtMan-List: Wislizenus -áááááá Re: MtMan-List:Dennis, or Dennis? <g> -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá MtMan-List: Short Starters -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson & BC -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail -áááááá Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:11:39 -0600 From: "Ethan Sudman" <EthanSudman@home.com> Subject: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C087BB.0BBF62A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all. I was wondering if anyone knew what became of the mountain men after the = westward expansion really started. I understand that some of them became = trail guides to wagon trains. What happened to the rest, especially = considering that most of them were so poorly educated? What happened to = them after 1890 (when the frontier was "officially" non-existent)? Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethansudman@home.com) - ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C087BB.0BBF62A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was wondering if anyone knew what = became of the=20 mountain men after the westward expansion really started. I understand = that some=20 of them became trail guides to wagon trains. What happened to the rest,=20 especially considering that most of them were so poorly educated? What = happened=20 to them after 1890 (when the frontier was "officially"=20 non-existent)?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,<BR>Ethan Sudman (<A=20 href=3D"mailto:ethansudman@home.com">ethansudman@home.com</A>)</FONT></DI= V></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_00B0_01C087BB.0BBF62A0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:13:36 -0800 From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Suspenders Suspenders have been the means of holding your pants up well beyond migration by Europeans to this country. In fact, suspenders (or "braces") had elastic parts to them in the Dickensonian era. Gentlemen fashion only, of course. Linen suspenders with leather reinforcement was standard issue to military troops during the 19th Century. The leather belt was a "tool" belt to hold ammo, bayonet, etc. The style of suspenders with the X arrangement in the back is said to be an American style. English braces are Y in shape with a loop in the back suspending a piece of leather with two buttonholes. I wear linen suspenders to hold up my leather trousers but I believe I will switch to leather braces of my own manufacture. I don't like the way the metal buckles cut into my chest or the narrow width that has put semi-permanent furrows into my shoulders. Larry Huber - ----- Original Message ----- From: <SWcushing@aol.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Suspenders > Hallo the List, > > Does anyone know how long suspenders have been around? ....(and not the > elastic type) When you're built like a plumb, belts don't get it...... I am, > of course, pretty lean... but my pistol, knife, and hawk tend to pull my > breeches down....:o) > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:13:27 -0600 From: "Ethan Sudman" <EthanSudman@home.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wood Wheels Hello. What type of wood is used? Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethansudman@home.com) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ole B. Jensen <olebjensen@earthlink.net> To: hist_text <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 8:52 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Wood Wheels > Gentelmen, > I found a source for Wagon Wheels, Axels, Cart Wheels any such item. If you > have any such needs, E-mail me at= olebjensen@earthlink.net > YMOS > Ole # 718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:14:43 -0600 From: "Ethan Sudman" <EthanSudman@home.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Speaking of weels... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C087BB.79C8A2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all. Someone recently brought up wood wheels. While we're on the topic, does = anyone know what kinds of wood were typically used in wooden wheels = during the 1800's? Thanks, Ethan Sudman (ethansudman@home.com) - ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C087BB.79C8A2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello all.</FONT></DIV><FONT = face=3DArial size=3D2> <DIV><BR>Someone recently brought up wood wheels. While we're on the = topic, does=20 anyone know what kinds of wood were typically used in wooden wheels = during the=20 1800's?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,<BR>Ethan Sudman (<A=20 href=3D"mailto:ethansudman@home.com">ethansudman@home.com</A>)</FONT></DI= V></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_00D4_01C087BB.79C8A2C0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:45:46 EST From: BrayHaven@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wood Wheels In a message dated 1/26/2001 6:13:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, EthanSudman@home.com writes: << What type of wood is used? >> Hickory or white oak Greg S. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:32:29 -0600 From: "jdearing" <jdearing@brick.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Suspenders > Suspenders have been the means of holding your pants up well beyond > migration by Europeans to this country. In fact, suspenders (or "braces") > had elastic parts to them in the Dickensonian era Ya got any documentation on that? I sure would like to see it. Thanks J.D. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:35:21 -0800 (PST) From: Dennis Fisher <difisher@yahoo.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Powder, caps/flint, patch, lube, ball, and barrel This question comes up periodically and I guess IÆll through my 2 cents in. There is no quick and easy answer to the question ôwhatÆs right for my rifleö. All rifles are different and you just have to spend a lot of time experimenting with all the different components. But the truth is that there are multiple answers for the same rifle. The powder charge, cap, patch, lube and ball that works great on the rifle range in July may not work at all on mid winter hunting trip in sub zero weather. But this is what separates the mountain men from the pork eaters. My advice is to get the best rifle you can and use it all the time. Learn it inside out. In my humble opinion, the best diagnostic tool for your rifleÆs performance in the patch that you pick up after youÆve fired it. A well tuned rifle will create a spent patch that looks darn near good enough to use again. The rifling will have engraved the patch but not cut through it, the back of the patch nearest the powder will a tan color, and the patch will be opened up nearly flat (sort of saucer shaped). If you are finding black, twisted, smoldering rags û something is not right. Powder û I use real black powder and have no experience with any substitutes. I use 2F in my .58 with good success but you can experiment with other grains. Try and stick with the same brand and grain size once you get things working. Black powder rifles seem less immune to patterning with changes in the powder change. The point of impact may go up or down but the shots arenÆt scattered. Once again, look at your spent patches and see what is happening. I first started trying to work out a load at 50 grains and worked all the way up to 120. Ended up in the 70 û 80 grain range. Caps û I tried a lot of different caps but the Dynamite Nobel ones worked best for me. This is another variable for the final equation. Patches û After trying a lot of different material, the one that worked best for me was the .0015ö mattress ticking. I donÆt use precut patches but there is nothing wrong with that if you can get the ball started squarely in the center of the patch. I wash it to get all the sizing out and then cut in down to manageable sizes which I tear down (along the grain) into strips about 2 inches wide. If your patching isnÆt surviving in one piece, you may need to look a something more rugged. Or, the ball may be two small. If it loads too easy, I would suspect that was the problem. How easy is too easy? I guess if you load your rifle with the earlier mentioned rawhide mallet, almost anything would be too easy. I would recommend that you be able to press the ball and patch into the muzzle with the flat of your patch knife handle, then seat it with the ramrod, you're in the ballpark. Holding the ramrod up close to the tip with both hands should preclude the need for a short starter. I donÆt have anything against them but it is just an extra thing in my shooting pouch that I can do without. Or as Ole mentioned, a barrel that is relieved at the muzzle. Patch Lube û I get best results with spit patches in the warmer months and bear oil in the winter. Spit patches will freeze in your barrel before you can ram them down. Learned that one the hard way. There are all different kinds of concoctions out there and I tried a lot of them in the beginning. The only other one I like (for warm weather) is a mixture of beeswax, lard, and paraffin. I prelube strips of patching material and squeegee off the excess lube. Here again, test, test, test and find out what works best for you. Ball û Two words here ôpure leadö. The way this is supposed to work is you push a snug fitting soft lead ball with a patch down the barrel, the powder goes off, the force of the explosion causes the bullet to slightly flatten and expand into the grooves, the patch takes the rifling and imparts spin to the bullet, the bullet exits the barrel and the patch is discarded like a sabot. Using a rifle with a quick twist (1 in 48 or less) that was meant for conical bullets can cause the patch and bullet to strip the rifling (fail to engage them) and shoot more or less like a smooth bore. Always select a rifle with a slower twist that was meant for round balls (if thatÆs what you are shooting). Barrel û My rifle has an inch and an eighth barrel with shallow 1 in 60ö rifling. I pulled the breach plug off mine as soon as I got it and took a slightly flatten ball and hammered it in the barrel at the muzzle with a piece of wood. Then used a heavy cleaning rod to force in through the barrel. The ball was perfectly engraved with the rifling. I measured the ball to determine the land and groove diameters. Now I had a starting point to select a ball size from. Based on my calculations I should have needed a .565 ball. But actually testing showed that a .562 worked better all around. Fine tuning your rifle is half the fun of muzzleloading and it gives you a good excuse to go shooting. Dennis Fisher __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:17:05 -0600 From: Todd <farseer@swbell.net> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bullet molds To all: Lots of good advice. I've settled with .495, and .010 patching. I = tear it into 2" strips, and grease it up with a mix of beeswax and = tallow. I keep that in a brass box. WHen i'm shooting in the cold, = I keep the box tucked inside the overlap on my coat or frock coat (which = one depends on HOW cold it is). I can start the ball with the tip of = my patch knife, it's a piece of antler with a natural notch in then end, = works as well as a short starter. I cut the patch, and shove it down = with my ramrod. Works well. I also have a short starter, and a brass = range rod I use when I'm at the range or bench. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > hawknest4@juno.com > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 1:59 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bullet molds >=20 >=20 > todd > in my bench guns I use a .015 .017 patch and a bore size bullet and = load > with a rawhide mallet which has a short starter on one side---- >=20 > Nuff said--- >=20 > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark = (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site:=20 > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce >=20 > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:42:38 -0800 From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder, caps/flint, patch, lube, ball, and barrel Hi Dennis, Long time , no see..... hardtack (randy bublitz) Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie O'Donnel fat? - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:47:25 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" <amm1585@hyperusa.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Suspenders SUSPEND'ER, n. One that suspends. 1. Suspenders, plu. straps worn for holding up pantaloons, &c.; braces. 11. Braces, plu., suspenders, the straps that sustain pantaloons, &c. Suspenders have probably been around since the day after britches were invented....they were certainly known by the same words in 1828, according to the Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary. (see above) YMOS Lanney Ratcliff - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:46:51 EST From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail - --part1_24.1056859d.27a3909b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ethan: Osborne Russell and men like Joe Meek and Doc Newell (brothers-in-law) settled in Oregon. They were part of the first provisional government west of the Rocky Mountains. They met secretively (because of the strong of the British presence -- Hudson's Bay --) in what they called "wolf meetings." They were actually forming a government and stood together at Champoeg, Oregon and made the historic vote. It has always amazed me that these adventurous, nomadic mountaineers, became such powerfully strong citizens in the settlements. The fact that they acted honorably and made a strong contribution is no surprise, it's just the fact that they settleed down and lived among "quiet men." That's the surprise to me. Fair weather to you, Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com - --part1_24.1056859d.27a3909b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>Ethan: <BR> <BR>Osborne Russell and men like Joe Meek and Doc Newell (brothers-in-law) <BR>settled in Oregon. They were part of the first provisional government west <BR>of the Rocky Mountains. They met secretively (because of the strong of the <BR>British presence -- Hudson's Bay --) in what they called "wolf meetings." <BR>They were actually forming a government and stood together at Champoeg, <BR>Oregon and made the historic vote. It has always amazed me that these <BR>adventurous, nomadic mountaineers, became such powerfully strong citizens in <BR>the settlements. The fact that they acted honorably and made a strong <BR>contribution is no surprise, it's just the fact that they settleed down and <BR>lived among "quiet men." That's the surprise to me. <BR> <BR>Fair weather to you, <BR> <BR>Laura Glise <BR>Wind1838@aol.com</FONT></HTML> - --part1_24.1056859d.27a3909b_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:52:05 -0500 From: "D. Miles" <deforge1@bright.net> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder, caps/flint, patch, lube, ball, and barrel Hey Hardtack.. I am back on line for a week now.. I was off for near 3. Getting ready to hit the bed. We have 3" of new snow since noon and it is still really a flyin' Gonna wake my beagle dog up early and go miss some pheasant & rabbit tomorrow to piss her off...<G> What's up with you? D - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randal J Bublitz" <randybublitz@juno.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 8:42 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Powder, caps/flint, patch, lube, ball, and barrel > Hi Dennis, Long time , no see..... hardtack (randy bublitz) > > Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie > O'Donnel fat? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:52:33 EST From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail In a message dated 1/26/01 3:11:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, EthanSudman@home.com writes: << What happened to them after 1890 >> We're still here Ethan, just smarter than ever! Barney - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:42:42 -0700 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Was bullet molds This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C087D8.87E39AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg said: I wouldn't shoot at an elk at 130 yards with a black powder rifle. But = that's me :o). I passed on a similar shoot back in November. Never got = that close again. Elk do not have to bolt to leave you behind, they can = sure cover the country at a meandering walk while you try to sneak = along. Tried again last weekend and could not find the herd. Tracks make = a poor meal.=20 Now that ends the season for me and I still have not taken a big game = animal with a muzz. On the weekend when we passed on the elk, we = returned to camp and unloaded by killing a lung sized rock at 150 yards. = Sure makes me wonder.... WY=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C087D8.87E39AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV> <P>Greg said:</P> <P></P> <P>I wouldn't shoot at an elk at 130 yards with a black powder rifle. = But that's=20 me :o). I passed on a similar shoot back in November. Never got that = close=20 again. Elk do not have to bolt to leave you behind, they can sure cover = the=20 country at a meandering walk while you try to sneak along. Tried again = last=20 weekend and could not find the herd. Tracks make a poor meal. </P> <P>Now that ends the season for me and I still have not taken a big game = animal=20 with a muzz. On the weekend when we passed on the elk, we returned to = camp and=20 unloaded by killing a lung sized rock at 150 yards. Sure makes me = wonder....</P> <P>WY </P></DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C087D8.87E39AA0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 22:04:47 -0500 From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bullet molds(ball and patch tightness) ole I order ramrods about once a year and usually order about a groce at that quantity i pay less than 1.00 a piece and of them order in sizes from 1/4 to 5/8 with the most of them being 3/8 7/16 and 1/2 I always order hickory---and ask for straight grain and center cut wood---then when i sort them wind up with less than 2 dozen that are fit to keep in my estimation and those i make rods out of---those i put into a plastic tube of decil fuel and let soak for over a month then put into a lathe and cut for ramrod ferrels and jags--- that makes a good tough and flexible rod---hard to find center cut hickory that is good straight grain thats why out of 144 rods i only get less than 24---the rest are used for repairs ---short starters and given away to people who dont know the difference in a good or a bad ramrod---bet i get rid of 2 or 3 ever time i go to the range---for people to use as a working rod---the ones that i put in my guns are the hand selected ones and havent had a customer call and say he has broken a rod in years---you also have to show a lot of people how to properly use a rod on lots of ocasions---BTW I dont use the plastic or the grafite ones---have a hickory one in my gun that is over 40 years old and still going strong---have a 1/4" rod in my 29 flinter that has been there for 12 years and have put the hurt on a lot of tree rats with it and it is still as flexible as it was the day i made it---can bend it double and it still dont break---I dont recommend that though--- the coned muzzel is quite common on a lot of old guns a lot of people call it a choke muzzel---most of the modern made guns dont do this as it takes time to do it right so it wont blow out patches ---a lot of the new conical or slug barrel use this same system to ease loading of unpatched slugs into the barrel---but the tapor is more abrupt than the choked older barrels---a lot of the old rifle makers would always pull from the muzzel end when cutting rifleing---thus cutting a choke in that end of the barrel from the normal rifleing cuting work being done---then all they did was hone the muzzel down about 2 to 2 1/2 inches---and it doesnt affect hunting accuracy but it did affect target accuracy---it sure helped in muskets in their loading---also works great on smoothies---for ease of loading---can be done with a simple break hone to choke it with---or a 1 degree tapored reamer--- Nuff said bud--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:31:28 -0600 From: "Ethan Sudman" <EthanSudman@home.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail Or in my case, dumber than ever :-). - - Ethan - ----- Original Message ----- From: <LivingInThePast@aol.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 8:52 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail > In a message dated 1/26/01 3:11:13 PM Pacific Standard Time, > EthanSudman@home.com writes: > > << What happened to them after 1890 >> > > We're still here Ethan, just smarter than ever! Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:18:55 -0800 From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" <tphsb@earthlink.net> Subject: MtMan-List: braces/suspenders This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C087DD.96A6A640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I got a question for the list; how far back can ajustable tabs on braces be documented? that is = something I have wondered. Thanks Tom - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C087DD.96A6A640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#f0e8d8> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I got a question for the = list;</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>how far back can ajustable tabs on = braces be=20 documented? that is something I have wondered. Thanks=20 Tom</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C087DD.96A6A640-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 21:51:40 -0700 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <leona3@favorites.com> Subject: MtMan-List: Wislizenus This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C087E2.2A2FACA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Dean. I look forward to another good read. Made that much better by the fact = that it would probably be unavailable anywhere else. WY - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C087E2.2A2FACA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you Dean.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I look forward to another good = read. Made=20 that much better by the fact that it would probably be unavailable = anywhere=20 else.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> - ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C087E2.2A2FACA0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:42:13 -0800 From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Dennis, or Dennis? <g> Dennis Miles, No offense brother, but I was replying to Dennis Fisher's posting. <g> I'm keeping tabs on you VIA scalpdance..... I am glad all is well with you, same is true here. How was the deer hagus? (sp?) BTW.... I saw George T. today, he is looking real good (well , as good as he can <s>). His knee and knuckle are progressing very well. He was on the way to the Mission to do some silver work. See ya soon, i hope..... hardtack Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie O'Donnel fat? - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:52:08 -0800 From: Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail Ethan, most of the originals were dead by 1890. The last rdvs. was in 1840. Even if 25 years old then, they would have been 75 by 1890. Many settled in California and Oregon. Many returned to the states. Many weren't as uneducated as most think. hardtack Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie O'Donnel fat? - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 22:29:45 -0700 From: Allen Hall <allenhall@srv.net> Subject: MtMan-List: Short Starters Hello the List, Can anyone document the use of short starters by mountain men? Allen - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:44:31 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jeremiah Johnson & BC In a message dated 1/26/1 02:12:59 PM, hawknest4@juno.com writes: <<the brothers of the amm buried the suposed remains of him there in the 70's--->> Supposed is not a good word. I checked at the Veteran's Cemetary in Los Angeles where had been burried, I saw his complete skeleton in the coffin laid on cotton batting over the top of all the other materials in the grave, I carried the coffin, and I helped let it down into the grave. I later dedicated the grave. Confirmed, anthenticated, but not supposed. (June 1974) Richard James hvrno #79 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:04:53 -0600 From: Victoria Pate <vapate@juno.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:52:08 -0800 Randal J Bublitz <randybublitz@juno.com> writes: > Ethan, most of the originals were dead by 1890. Ethan, Mr. Bublitz is referring to those were able to survive. Many MM lost their lives during the Fur Trade Era. Victoria > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 01:07:26 EST From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail In a message dated 1/26/1 07:56:24 PM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: <<<< What happened to them after 1890 >>>> They died. RJames - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:48:24 -0700 From: "John L. Allen" <jlallen@wyoming.com> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail To Ethan and others: I thought you would be interested in a compilation of data on the mountain men, produced by Richard J. Fehrman and printed in the last volume (#10) of Hafen's magnificent "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade" series. This set of fascinating statistics is based on the 292 biographies included in the preceding 9 volumes of the Hafen series. The number is large enough to make the statistics significant (meaning reliable). Here is the data: 1. Little is known about their education but most could at least read and write. 2. The four most common birth areas (over 50%) were Canada, Missouri, Kentucky, and Virginia; 31% were foreign-born (primarily British Isles and Europe). 3. The most active years in which men left St. Louis and other points for the mountains were 1825-30. 4. Most mountain men were married (92%); about 2/3 were married to whites (including Mexicans) and about 1/3 to Indians. 5. Of the married trappers, 75% fathered children with the average number of children being 4. 6. After their trapping days were over, mountain men took up various occupations: 30% became ranchers or farmers, 10% became businessmen or merchants, 28% retired or died in the mountains, and the remaining 32% became miners, guides, Indian agents or interpreters, post traders, teachers, sheepherders, carpenters, surveyors, writers, or horse thieves. 7. The average year of departure from the mountain man life was 1845. 8. The life span ranged from 28 years to 112 years. The average age of death of the mountain men was 64 years, considerably above the average for white males in the 19th century and comparing favorably with an average age of death of 68 for white males in 1970. Most died of old age or associated physical illnesses. Only about 11% were killed in fights with Indians and 7% met other violent deaths. This statistical compilation ends with the following passage (Hafen, vol. 10, pp. 14-15): "The findings of this study present the following composite picture of the average of the 292 mountain men sketched in the previous 9 volumes of this series. "He was born in Canada in 1805, and was educated enough to be able to read and write. He left for the mountains in 1828 from St. Louis, and arrived at some point in the Rocky Mountains in 1828. "This man was a free trapper. At one time or another during his stay in the mountains, he undoubtedly attended one of more of the sixteen rendezvous held between the years 1825 and 1840. He traveled around the west, usually with his family, using horse or mule, or sometimes a bullboat. His wife cared for their three children as well as helping with many aspects of the trapping and fur preparation procedures. "When our man left the mountains in 1845, he turned to a career of farming or ranching. After leading a full life for 64 years, he passed away in 1869 as the result of old age or an associated illness. He was then laid to rest in the parts of the West where he had spent much of his life--Missouri or California." This is a somewhat different picture than the one presented by fiction, movies, etc.--but all the more interesting for that. John **************************************************** Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randal J Bublitz" <randybublitz@juno.com> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:52 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: During and after the Oregon Trail > Ethan, most of the originals were dead by 1890. The last rdvs. was in > 1840. Even if 25 years old then, they would have been 75 by 1890. Many > settled in California and Oregon. Many returned to the states. Many > weren't as uneducated as most think. hardtack > > Blaming guns for killing people is like blaming spoons for making Rosie > O'Donnel fat? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #717 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.