One reason you find a few people in our hobby who use "Indian"
items and ways is the unqiue time frame we portary. The fur trade is
probably the first peroid of time, for the western tribes, that whites came
into large contact with them. We (trappers, adventurers and company men)
traveled. lived and died in the same lands as various tribes. Many of these
men had a good relationship with the Indians living around them. They traded,
camped and even married into alot of the tribes. So, when things which are
"Indian" turn up in our camps, it is more natural in the time frame we represent
then with any other.
As far as "spiritual appropriations"- different story. Many of us in this
group
have friends which are full, half or quarter bloods. We get invited to sweats,
dances and dinners. And I must say, there are a few in this hobby which like
to portary themselves as "Indians". They may tell old stories around the camp
fire, give blessings for new lodges and even dress like natives. But that is the
exception to the rule for those of us who take this seriously. Most will
respect, but
not copy. They (we) even tell about things we have learned from our friends, but
don't profit on it. And some of our group can make very good representations of
great old Indian equipement, but it is known that it is that- not like you find
in
alot of the tourist traps around the west.
We respect the life styles which some Indians I know conduct themselves.
Past and present. For me, I take everyone, white or Indian for who they are.
I have been heckeled during a class of about 40 people by a Indian before.
When questioned and had various views pointed out to me, I gave straight
answers. Some which the whites didn't like, some which the gentlemen didn't
much care for. By the end of the hour's class, we talked some more, he
invited me to his camp and when it was all done, said I was always welcome
to his home. Too many times, we have this gap between us which is influnced
by TV, old movies and even our prejudgies. Which doesn't have to be there
(on both od our sides).
mike.
"Best, Dianne" wrote:
> As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have
> been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps,
> and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering
> back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant
> culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and
> the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I
> want to broach.
>
> I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white
> people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed
> to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian".
>
> There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with
> Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so
> inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions
> died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites.
>
> Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people
> ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of
> "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a
> bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial
> groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they
> professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned.
>
> As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures,
> a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation".
>
> Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles?
>
> I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am
> wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized
> Native groups.
>
> Looking forward to a rousing session on this one.....
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
- ----------------------
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:03:55 EST
From: JSeminerio@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
Here's where the fun starts
Sorry Diane but as in much of the world today it is all befuddled. We don't
get to see too many Native American at most Rendezvous. I had a talk with a
professor who is Native. The general consensus is that we are nuts and could
not be anything but dangerous. If you read those trap stories that might be
right.
Go to Pow wow, and I don't have to tell you "Vegas style" (my name, you can
make up your own) rules. I have seen and this is the ultimate best, Native
Americans at Pow wow co-opting (hope I "spelt" that right) velvet ribbon work
and 3-D bead work from the Mardi Gras Indians. MG Indians are not "Indians"
at all but an Afro American sub culture from New Orleans that strut their
stuff during Carnival. MG Indians make the most incredible use of Ribbon,
beads and feathers.
Jake Pontillo, a nice Italian Boy from Queens, has been paid by Reservations
and Native groups to teach porcupine quill work to Native Americans. Most of
the books written about camp and trail craft (the guys on this list could
just rattle them off) were written or compiled by Whites (Caucasoid Americans
if you please). Are we the great preservers? Or the great corrupters?
European collections are really all we have of 18th Century Native material
cultures.
We from a historical perspective research things as they were. Many mountain
men and long hunters lived, traded, married, fought against and were allied
to Native Americans. We PORTRAY. The Native American culture like America
as a whole is ever evolving.
Native and ALL Americans have the right and even the obligation to proceed
into the future. So let the beaded baseball caps wave. I always thought
that a GREAT fund raiser for Native causes would be a High Fly designer
show/auction of Pow wow Dance garb.
Boy that was long and rambling. Sorry about that
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 19:51:57 EST
From: JSeminerio@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
In a message dated 12/5/00 5:36:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
deafstones@yahoo.com writes:
>
> I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious
> ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my equally
> inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh well.
> Yeah, it was inappropriate; so?
>
Was it a circumcision?
And don't start you are just mad that you didn't think of it first!
Fox I am REALLY really sorry
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:03:33 EST
From: Wind1838@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation - Off topic
Respectable?
Well, I agree more period correct, more interesting, better looking, but
respectable . . . I'm just not sure I can agree with that. Has anyone ever
heard the story of Dead Horse eating a buffalo's eyeballs at an AMM gathering.
I rest my case.
Laura Jean
(I did tell him that if he would consider doing it live, I thought I could
get him a gig on Leno or Letterman.)
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 21:21:03 EST
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item
- --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I've been contacted about a beaver problem. It involves three locations or
more. The land owner has maybe more than 10,000 acres. I have trapped
beaver for many years and will start trapping on these in Feb. Would anyone
out there like to learn beaver trapping? I could use some help. It's in
Eastern, OK.
TrapRJoe
- --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>I've been contacted about a beaver problem. It involves three locations or <BR>more. The land owner has maybe more than 10,000 acres. I have trapped <BR>beaver for many years and will start trapping on these in Feb. Would anyone <BR>out there like to learn beaver trapping? I could use some help. It's in <BR>Eastern, OK.
<BR>
<BR> TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML>
- --part1_95.3e33075.275efc8f_boundary--
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 18:39:44 -0800 (PST)
From: S Jones <deafstones@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
- --- JSeminerio@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 12/5/00 5:36:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> deafstones@yahoo.com writes:
>
> >
> > I've been amused by a few of these 'demonstrations' of religious
> > ceremonies in tipis at rendezvous. After one such demo, I gave my
> equally
> > inept demonstration of a Jewish ceremony and was told to leave! Oh
> well.
> > Yeah, it was inappropriate; so?
> >
>
> Was it a circumcision?
> And don't start you are just mad that you didn't think of it first!
>
>
> Fox I am REALLY really sorry
ROTFLMAO!!! Didn't think of that at the time, no! Ah, well, i won't have
another oppurtunity. No more for the public open house shows for me.
Getting back to Diane's letter, I think poverty and just plain lack of
oppurtunities excuses the Natives 'lack of interest'.
=====
deafstones
What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is.
