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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:38:30 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <rtlahti@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item
> Aw c'mon, Magpie, fess up. With all the tales
> Capt. Lahti' has told us about you recently, we all know who
> this Alaskan "friend" REALLY is!!!! <G>
>
> Victoria
Magpie,
I didn't tell them, Honest. They figured it out all by themselves. Do you
still have that Super Cub? <G>
And did you get that jpg of your daughter trying to take the ball away from
that Kennewick Woman?
Capt. Lahti'
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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 20:51:51 EST
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item
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True you may wear it for a while, but it doesn't sever legs or arms. I have
been in them, but because of advance planning I was able to get out, without
help. I was lucky.
TrapRJoe
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<HTML><FONT SIZE=2>True you may wear it for a while, but it doesn't sever legs or arms. I have <BR>been in them, but because of advance planning I was able to get out, without <BR>help. I was lucky.
<BR>
<BR> TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 20:56:44 EST
From: TrapRJoe@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item
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That why you use the safety on the trap and also an extra one to hold the
jaws allowing you to release it safely.
TrapRJoe
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>That why you use the safety on the trap and also an extra one to hold the <BR>jaws allowing you to release it safely.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR> TrapRJoe</FONT></HTML>
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A buddy of mine tried to grow his own tobacco over in eastern Tenn in with
his dad's crop allotment. Was a different strain and he was growing it for
seeds as well. Strange but the gov't. helicopters must have liked it, too
cuz they flew over quite a bit to get a look! Maybe the seeds you got were
some from his late eighties crop! <VBG> Strange, but his tobacco look
different that his dad's. Hmmm.................
Seriously, do you know what it was called? How does it smoke?
- -C.Kent
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:32:38 -0600
From: "Best, Dianne" <dbest@hydro.mb.ca>
Subject: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have
been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps,
and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering
back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant
culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and
the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I
want to broach.
I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white
people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed
to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian".
There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with
Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so
inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions
died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites.
Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people
("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of
"instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a
bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial
groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they
professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned.
As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures,
a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation".
Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles?
I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am
wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized
Native groups.
Looking forward to a rousing session on this one.....
Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:14:18 -0800
From: "Larry Huber" <shootsprairie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
Dianne,
Your post is bound to be a "stick in the eye" to many on this group.
Truth be known, very few Natives join in this buckskinning life style we
have all adopted. The bulk of us are of European extraction with a
sprinkling of African and Spanish blood. True, there are a number of us (an
overt number, suspiciously)who claim a portion of Native blood from one
tribe or the other. I have never met a "Rez" Native doing what we do and
only a few mixed-bloods who were raised "Indian".
Why is this? I have a couple of theories, both probably as invalid as
any, but based on observation and conversation. The first is
ignorance of recorded history. Ever see the award-winning film : "Smoke
Signals"? It depicts two young men leaving the reservation for the first
time to retrieve the inherited possessions (a car)of an absentee father. It
is referred to as "going to the United States". All the perceptions these
men have about contemporary life outside is gleaned from movies, TV and oral
tradition. Like the Amish, they dwell apart. The rejection of written
history is almost a religion among some of these tribes. Why read what the
conquerors have written about those defeated? It's too bad because our
local Chumash were able to emerge from their mixed Spanish/Native blood due
to the records of ceremonies and language kept by the Spanish padres at the
missions. It's also too bad because they miss the point of the "rendezvous
movement". At a reenactment held at Fort Snelling, Minnesota years ago a
small lodge was set up by a local Dakota couple. They made no attempt at
period clothing and wore their ribbon shirt and dance dress...but they were
there. I asked them why there were no more Natives at this gathering
considering that we were reproducing a period of history where the whites
and Indians wanted the same thing: to keep "civilization" east of the
Mississippi. He replied that most of his friends couldn't get by the evil
connections made to this fort. Fort Snelling is where the Dakota were
imprisoned after the abortive uprising in the 1860s. 49 Dakotas were taken
from Fort Snelling and hung at Mankato in the largest mass hanging in
history. The Indian war period and contemporary twentieth century living on
the reservations overshadow any "good times" of the past. And it's the love
of the history of this time that drives the "hobby". This life we live is
costly. You gotta love it to scrape and save for the gun and traps
necessary to travel back in time. Just the gas for the truck to haul all
the stuff is a major consideration these days. Most Natives have other
things to spend the money on. Stuff they need and love more.
The second reason is social. Us "white" people aren't Indians. Never
will be. Attend a Pow-Wow and wait until the place closes down for the
night. Listen to the songs the Natives sing for themselves around the drum
when the trinket sellers and fry-bread cooks have gone to bed and the white
tourists have left. The young women dance around the drum while the young
men pass the "holy smoke" and check out the gals. Us white guys stand on
the edge and listen to the words that are not sung but are there: "You are
not wanted here. You don't understand and never will. You are not Native
and never will be." Now reverse the situation and put reservation Natives
on the outside of a fire circle at rendezvous as they listen to the songs
and the attitudes presented there: "You do not belong here. You do not
understand and never will. You are not us and never will be." The
interesting thing about these two scenarios is the validity they both
espouse. There is something valid about the Indian-experience that attracts
us European immigrants. Back far enough we connect. And there is something
of the confidence and family values around the rendezvous campfire that is
attractive to the Native American. We both want what the other has but we
refuse to give up being who we are in order to attain it.
This post is too damn long and too damn philosophical. It really is up
to the mixed-bloods who live in both worlds to make the connection between
us. They need to talk up rendezvous to their cousins on the Rez and invite
them into an accommodating group. They need to come out of the closet and
explain the Indian mind to us buckskinners so we can "get" the good stuff
and adjust the attitudes that prevents us from experiencing the mix of
cultures that was so much a part of the original rendezvous.
Or NOT. The movement will continue as it has, catering to those that
read the histories, love the outdoors and won the wars. A few of us
individuals will attempt more. Those of us who are welcome in Native homes
and have Native relatives will continue to bridge the gap and insert the
knowledge gained into our lives. The rest will settle for celebrating
history in our own way. The buckskinning "hobby" appeals to a wide variety
of tastes and interests. There is room enough for everyone. There is room
for Natives.
Welcome,
Larry Huber
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Best, Dianne <dbest@hydro.mb.ca>
To: 'MountainMan Digest' <hist_text@xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:32 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
> As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have
> been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps,
> and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been
wandering
> back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant
> culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and
> the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I
> want to broach.
>
> I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white
> people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things
presumed
> to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian".
>
> There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with
> Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so
> inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the
suspicions
> died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites.
>
> Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people
> ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of
> "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a
> bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial
> groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they
> professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned.
>
> As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native
cultures,
> a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural
appropriation".
>
> Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles?
>
> I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am
> wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized
> Native groups.
>
> Looking forward to a rousing session on this one.....
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:16:55 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <pat_quilter@qscaudio.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
Larry Huber's thoughtful reply pretty much sums it up for me. I have always
had a fascination with Native culture which is part of what drew me into
recreating the mountain man's life style. I have come to realise that I have
a rather vague and superficial "understanding" of native culture which was
actually as varied as the 1000 or more tribes that populated this land
before we got here. Qualities which were generally admired and adopted by
white Americans included personal independence, a fairly class-less society,
and especially admiration for their well-developed skills of living in the
wilderness. Feared or hated qualities included ruthlessness and "heathen
religions". Most Europeans of the time appeared to take for granted that
their logical skills, education, weapons, personal strength, and Christian
faith were more than a match for the natives they encoutered. I can
understand the "New Ager's" search for the meaning of life and the romantic
hope that somehow the stoic Indians had it all figured out. I don't think
they do, any more than the rest of us. All societies have their bonding and
support rituals. Everyone appreciates polite respect for their customs and a
decent sense of privacy. I can understand resentment against cultural
appropriation, especially of a shallow and patronizing kind. If I found
myself invited to a ceremony I would be honored to attend in a respectful
manner but it is not my personal culture.
As a side point, although there may some some whites who are out-and-out
pretending to be Indians, most of those wearing "native" clothing are
recreating the crossover culture which developed between whites and their
mixed blood offspring who went "partly native" and enjoyed the freedom of
the wilderness while holding onto the wealth and power of their white
weapons and contacts. The "rules of the game" pretty much require women to
dress native, since there were so few white women until the very end of the
rendezvous era. You will find, however, that most events allow for a fair
amount of slack (for instance, for "frontier dress") as long as blatant
modern intrusions are avoided.
Best regards
Pat Quilter
- -----Original Message-----
From: Best, Dianne [mailto:dbest@hydro.mb.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:33 AM
To: 'MountainMan Digest'
Subject: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have
been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps,
and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering
back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant
culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and
the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I
want to broach.
I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white
people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed
to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian".
There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with
Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so
inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions
died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites.
Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people
("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of
"instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a
bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial
groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they
professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned.
As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures,
a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation".
Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles?
I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am
wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized
Native groups.
Looking forward to a rousing session on this one.....
Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
- ----------------------
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:54:13 -0800
From: Linda Holley <tipis@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
Actually, you might want to bring this up on another site called
http://www.powwows.com.
Elders I have talked too do not mind the dancers or the re-creation. But all is
an opinion on all sides.
As for "stealing" a culture, it might be more of an adaptation or adopting of a
culture.
Many of those who you maybe looking at are part Indian and trying to learn their
culture. But this is not the site to get into any of this.
I have seen Indians get dressed up as Buckskinners to do a time line at
Rendezvous.
What do we call these guys??
Linda Holley
"Best, Dianne" wrote:
> As a Flatlander who has been working her way toward something more, I have
> been through the "Buckskinning" series once, been to a lot of cyber camps,
> and been on this list for a couple of moons now. I have also been wandering
> back and forth between contemporary Native culture and the predominant
> culture for many decades now. With the trail I have walked in the past and
> the direction I seem to be going now, there is a really sensitive issue I
> want to broach.
>
> I have seen, in the Buckskinning books and elsewhere, a lot of "white
> people" wearing traditional Native clothes and "recreating" things presumed
> to be Native - to be most unkind "pretending to be Indian".
>
> There was a time, forty years ago, when white people associating with
> Natives paid a social price for their actions. Mainly, any white people so
> inclined were well received in Native circles, at least after the suspicions
> died down, but greatly frowned upon by whites.
>
> Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people
> ("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of
> "instant Indians" were born. Many people came to Native circles, learned a
> bit, and then went away to start their own "lodges" or other ceremonial
> groups understanding only the most basic tenants of that which they
> professed to teach, and claiming titles and "respect" they had not earned.
>
> As a result of these "thefts" there is now, in contemporary Native cultures,
> a lot of concern and even some real anger at these "cultural appropriation".
>
> Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles?
>
> I realize there will be many individual views on this topic but I am
> wondering most about the opinions expressed by Native elders and organized
> Native groups.
>
> Looking forward to a rousing session on this one.....
>
> Jin-o-ta-ka (Dianne)
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:42:12 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
In a message dated 12/5/0 08:34:00 AM, dbest@hydro.mb.ca writes:
Has this issue come up in Mountain Man circles?>>*
<<Things changed 15 or so years ago when a whole bunch of non-Native people
("New Agers") decided the Natives had things they wanted and a bunch of
"instant Indians" were born. . . . . . . . . claiming titles and "respect"
they had not earned.**
*One Indian - who is much to be respected in his knowledge of "ancestoral
correctness" - a spiritual leader, a much respected museum consultant, and a
lawyer - once told me that for "buckskinners" to build themselves a scalp
shirt and present themselves to the world is the same as for Indians to wear
a black robe and say "lets go play Catholic priest". Further - these shirts
and similar items were not only sacred, but earned. Another Indian - a
Lakota - in an open church meeting at the Fort Bridger Rendezvous said
basically the same thing.
** In conversation with individuals similar to the above, this group is
refered to as the "sweat-lodges and crystals" tribe. I didn't know it had
spread so broadly.
Richard James
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:54:26 EST
From: NaugaMok@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smokes??
In a message dated 12/1/00 11:28:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, CTOAKES@aol.com
writes:
<< Many hard core smokers now carry
hidden empty Sucrets tins to put their cigarette butts in rather than loose
eating privileges at her fire. >>
Heck of an idea! Would sure beat digging the loose butts out of my possibles
bag!
NM
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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:55:53 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item
<<Aw c'mon, Magpie, fess up.>>
Haaaaaaa...Victoria, I've been brain dead before, but that wasn't me!!!! <G> I did once manage to land my Cub on very thin ice (like 1/2 inch!)with a foot of snow on top, and almost went through.I could actually feel the plane settle as the ice started to give way. It was about 20 below and even if I could have made it to shore, I'd have never made it to camp, because all my survival gear was in the back of the plane.
...got moving fast enough to stay on top...but took awhile to get my heart restarted....<VBG>
I trapped most of the beaver with snares, set just below the "bottom" of the ice. I'd use 4 at each set..bent into a 8" circle, and set around a birch or willow pole for bait. The beaver would swim around, cutting the pole and get caught. When ice got thick, we'd used a chainsaw to cut the holes...sometimes 3' deep. Worked good. The hard part was skinning the critters...
Ymos,
Magpie
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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:03:54 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver news item
<<I didn't tell them, Honest.....>
No more war stories for you Lahti!!!!.....<G>
<<Do you still have the Cub?>>
Naw.....had to sell it to buy a real house...like the tipi wasn't good enough for my wife and kids!!! After 13 years I still grieve... :-(
I saw the pic in the Kennewick paper...cute kid, like her Dad...huh? Man o' man did we take a wippin' in that game!
Magpie
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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:11:13 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
In a message dated 12/5/0 01:35:15 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes:
<<I have seen Indians get dressed up as Buckskinners to do a time line at
Rendezvous.
What do we call these guys??
Linda Holley
>>
After the turn of the century someone in the Indian group caught on to the
script of "when you play cowboys and Indians - guess who wins??"! After
that, most western Indians started wearing cowboy duds and today - this is
the most popular wear. What do we call them??
Richard James
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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:52:01 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <olebjensen@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Cultural Appropriation"
Dianne,
It has come up, but bad taste is everywhere and knows no limit. That's why I
am AMM and try to stay with what is correct, you meet a more respectable
class of individuals then youre park and drop flat lander's.
