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hist_text-digest     Wednesday, September 20 2000     Volume 01 : Number 629



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá MtMan-List: how about this for a subject?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: how about this for a subject?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: how about this for a subject?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:47:37 -0700
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

Is this where we hear the squelch in the background and all of us run for
cover or cover our ears???  I think everyone is out to the Eastern or the
Seminar or something.   I am getting bord, board, or boarded?  Something
like that.  So, whats' up "doc"?

Linda Holley

Ratcliff wrote:

> tap, tap, tap......is this thing on????
> Lanney Ratcliff
>
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> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 13:59:37 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Holley" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500


> Is this where we hear the squelch in the background and all of us run for
> cover or cover our ears???  I think everyone is out to the Eastern or the
> Seminar or something.   I am getting bord, board, or boarded?  Something
> like that.  So, whats' up "doc"?

Linda,

If someone would ask a question, I would make some kind of off the wall
answer that everyone can jump on and shoot full of holes and we can go from
there. <G> It's hunting season in many places. I'm between trips at the
moment but ain't stayin home any longer than I have to. Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 14:37:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

> > Is this where we hear the squelch in the
> background and all of us run for
> > cover or cover our ears???  I think everyone is
> out to the Eastern or the
> > Seminar or something.   I am getting bord, board,
> or boarded?  Something
> > like that.  So, whats' up "doc"?
>
> Linda,
>
> If someone would ask a question, I would make some
> kind of off the wall
> answer that everyone can jump on and shoot full of
> holes and we can go from
> there. <G> It's hunting season in many places. I'm
> between trips at the
> moment but ain't stayin home any longer than I have
> to. Capt. Lahti'


Here's a question: why are there so many more horses
asses than there are horses?

Seriously, if black powder and horses did not exist in
America, how far into the interior continent would the
European immigrants have gone? The Plains tribes for
instance barely populated the grasslands before the
escape of the spanish Barbs, right?

=====
defstones
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge.
Knowledge is of the past,
Wisdom is of the future."
- -Native American Proverb

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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 15:34:37 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

Weren't there mastodon hunters out there waaayyyy before the plains tribes.  In
response to how far would the europeans have gone though...good
question....maybe the Viking settlements in the New World give us a hint on the
pre-blackpowder days.  Seems like back then the ones with the biggest stick
ruled the roost eh?



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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:36:58 -0600
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: how about this for a subject?

    Since the site is slow, how about a comment and then you guys jump
in?
How many times have you heard that the only white women in the
west were the missionary wives? Then all the "experts" use Narcissa
Whitman and Mrs. Spaulding as the only possible personas that
white women today can portary accurately?
    Well, there were actually fourteen women and two young white
ladies in the west before 1840. This does not include the one or two
found in the southwest prior to 1841. The list as I have it is:

1836
    Narcissa Whitman
    Eliza Spaulding
1838
    Sarah Smith
    Mary Grey
    Mary Walker
    Satira Rogers (who died at Willaimette falls- drowning)
    Mrs. Eells
1839
    Mrs. John Griffin
    Mrs. Asahel Munger
            (both independant missionaries)
1840
    Mrs. Harvey Clark
    Mrs. P. Littlejohn
    Mrs. Alvin Smith
            (above were independant missionaries)
    Mrs. Joel Walker
    Joel's sister
    two young daughters
            (the Walkers were not missionaries, the first settlers west)

    Now in 1841, it seems like there were 24 more whites (American) in
Oregon and 114 more in 1842. While we are on the subject- you do find
English white women in the forts on the west coast during this time.
Wives
and relatives of fort employees.
    So, it is true that only two white women came to the rendezvous. But
far
more than that went west during what most people consider the fur trade!

                                                        mike.



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:29:17 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

> Here's a question: why are there so many more horses
> asses than there are horses?

Deafstones,

I'll take a crack since I brought up the idea. To your first question:
Because some one needs to ask that question and someone will come along and
try to answer it so there are at least twice as many. <G>

>
> Seriously, if black powder and horses did not exist in
> America, how far into the interior continent would the
> European immigrants have gone?

Now to your second question: They would probably never have left Europe
since they had no powder and no horses. Think about your question.

The Plains tribes for
> instance barely populated the grasslands before the
> escape of the spanish Barbs, right?

 And finally: Well.............they did populate the plains and many other
areas of the continent didn't they? And didn't the great Indian
civilizations of South America, Central America and even our South West and
Eastern Mound Builders ,etc. exist without the horse or gun powder for that
matter? Many of the "plains Indians" came to be there because they were
pushed out of their ancestoral lands in the Eastern US and thus were on the
Plains and sucessful simply because of the coming of europeans but there
before europeans. They in their turn had pushed out other tribes to be there
so the Plains must have been populated to some degree.

 So perhaps the Plains were not overly populated simply because the resource
could not be utilized as effectively but many other areas of the country
were well populated because resources were easy to come by and were being
efficiently utilized. The fish and agriculture of the eastern indians, the
salmon and whaleing cultures of the west, the civilizations of the rest of
North and South America, etc.

We could speculate and say that the Indian was doing just fine on this
continent without the horse and gun and we could further speculate that
given time they would have invented ways to further over populate this
continent and perhaps wipe out the buffalo on their own as they probably
wiped out such animals as the  mamoth and mastidon. There may even have
still been horses and camels, etc. here when the indian first arrived and
rather than ride them, the indian ate them. And all without the benifit of
guns and powder. Amaizing.

I'm running out of bs so someone else needs to take over so Linda feels like
we're earning our keep. <G> I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:24:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

- --- [e-mail] wrote:


> Weren't there mastodon hunters out there waaayyyy
> before the plains tribes.  In
> response to how far would the europeans have gone
> though...good
> question....maybe the Viking settlements in the New
> World give us a hint on the
> pre-blackpowder days.  Seems like back then the ones
> with the biggest stick
> ruled the roost eh?


Yes, the earlier settlements failed to take hold, such
as the first Virginia settlements and some on the
Texas coast did not survive as well. Even when the
immigrants became "naturalized", that is adapted to
the land, they still chose places to live that NO
natives would be caught dead in, such as the Los
Angeles Basin (smog air inversions were well known
then). Apparently, odds improved through sheer numbers
of an invasive species, the "Euro-Americans".
Metalurgy and blackpowder seems to be the unfair
advantage along with the horses. If the Vikings had
the horses with them, would they have survived? ...and
claimed the continent for Norway and Sweden?

=====
defstones
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge.
Knowledge is of the past,
Wisdom is of the future."
- -Native American Proverb

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:41:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

- --- Roger Lahti <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Now to your second question: They would probably
> never have left Europe
> since they had no powder and no horses. Think about
> your question.

I agree with your first and third answers
wholeheartedly. Life may have been improved
dramatically with the arrival of the white man's horse
for transportation (tipis and possessions became
bigger, for example). Otherwise, life's great,
probably better than Renaissance Europe. In some
areas, the natives surpassed the Euro-American's
technology.

I can't believe you wrote the second answer! Perhaps,
you should reconsider your answer. Crowded and
oppressed Europeans couldn't stay home, could they?
I'm straying far from the discussion now: The
difference between America and Australia is that
America was presented as a kind of Utopia (religion,
freedom, economy, etc.) that it could/would not live
up to while Australia began as a penal colony (just
reviewed the tapes recorded off PBS's the Fatal Shore
while I was in Colorado's Weminuche Wilderness).
Whichever, where else can Germans, Austrians,
Hessians, Scotch-Irish-welsh go to? They could not
live at all had they stayed, could they?

Respectfully yours,

=====
defstones
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge.
Knowledge is of the past,
Wisdom is of the future."
- -Native American Proverb

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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 16:43:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

Has anyway read "Killing the White Man's Indian" by
Fergus M. Bordewich?

=====
defstones
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge.
Knowledge is of the past,
Wisdom is of the future."
- -Native American Proverb

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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 17:18:51 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

> I can't believe you wrote the second answer! Perhaps,
> you should reconsider your answer. Crowded and
> oppressed Europeans couldn't stay home, could they?

The point of my answer was that the original question precluded anyone
having horse or powder in the New World by virtue of how the question was
asked.

If that had really been the case, I doubt the European would have had the
civilization in place to come to this continent in any strength. The Vikings
are a good expample along with other early sea faring cultures that may have
come over without a record having been kept. The Vikings either were pushed
back out by the indigenus peoples or failed because of politics or lack of
resources or perhaps the ability to utilize the scant resources or because
there were little resources to utilize. If they had been posessors of the
horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP
Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I
remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 20:16:55 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

I was wondering if you have any insight on how to restore brain tanned
leather. I came across a shirt that is in great need of help. Tahnks for any
input you can provide.

Jim B.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:48:56 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS

Capt,
  Here's a topic and I discussed a little last summer.
  How do you and others feel Northwest Guns were finished ?  We talked about
how the wood was finished sometime ago, but what about the metal parts ?
Were they blued, browned, or in the white ?  Were the barrels blued or
browned and the locks left white ?  Or not ?
Pendleton


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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 19:54:43 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS

OOps !  Should have said: Here's a topic you and I discussed a little last
summer.  Senior moment <G>
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
To: mountain lists <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 5:34 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS


Capt,
  Here's a topic and I discussed a little last summer.
  How do you and others feel Northwest Guns were finished ?  We talked about
how the wood was finished sometime ago, but what about the metal parts ?
Were they blued, browned, or in the white ?  Were the barrels blued or
browned and the locks left white ?  Or not ?
Pendleton


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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 00:38:03 GMT
From: "larry sherman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

. If they had been posessors of the
>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP
>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I
>remain...
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>


I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the black
powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were able
to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could throw
more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I
can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one
bullet.

Respectfully Larry Sherman
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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:09:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

- --- larry sherman <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> . If they had been posessors of the
> >horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different
> history. But pre BP
> >Europeans probably would not have made any inroads
> on this continent. I
> >remain...
> >
> >YMOS
> >Capt. Lahti'
> >
>
>
> I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents
> that even with the black
> powder and until the creation of repeating arms that
> the indians were able
> to push the settlements back. The reson for this was
> that they could throw
> more arrows faster than the settlers could load and
> fire their weapons. I
> can't find my book right now but it was somthing
> like 4 arrows to one
> bullet.
>
> Respectfully Larry Sherman
>


Thanks for the reminder about repeaters. First arrows
and then bullets. Believe it was BETTER than 4 arrows
to one bullet!

=====
defstones
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge.
Knowledge is of the past,
Wisdom is of the future."
- -Native American Proverb

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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: S Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: how about this for a subject?

- --- Mike Moore <[e-mail]> wrote:
>     Since the site is slow, how about a comment and
> then you guys jump
> in?
> How many times have you heard that the only white
> women in the
> west were the missionary wives? Then all the
> "experts" use Narcissa
> Whitman and Mrs. Spaulding as the only possible
> personas that
> white women today can portary accurately?


Thanks for this list! Gonna pass this on to Pam for
her 'portrayals' or whatever she calls her lectures.

=====
defstones
"Seek wisdom, not knowledge.
Knowledge is of the past,
Wisdom is of the future."
- -Native American Proverb

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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:27:23 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS

> Were they blued, browned, or in the white ?  Were the barrels blued or
> browned and the locks left white ?  Or not ?
> Pendleton

Pendleton,

To be honest I have no idea. Anything I would have to say on it would be
speculation. In that vein I would speculate that from what we know about
common practices, they may very well have been heat blued though I can see a
good case for in the white and browned. I have seen experts discuss this and
many feel that bluing the metal via a heat treatment (cooking it in a
special ash mix) was probably more common than browning and that even "in
the White" was very common especially with military weapons. Seeing an
original today that is browned, it seems to me that it is problematical as
to whether the brown finish came from natural age or was manufactured that
way. Any way I am speculating and there are surely others who's knowledge
will enlighen all of us more. I remain Sir..........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:36:24 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS

> In that vein I would speculate that from what we know about
>  common practices, they may very well have been heat blued though I can see
a
>  good case for in the white and browned. I have seen experts discuss this
and
>  many feel that bluing the metal via a heat treatment (cooking it in a
>  special ash mix) was probably more common than browning and that even "in
>  the White" was very common especially with military weapons.

One of the earliest, most used, and least mentioned methods of metal
finishing on these early firearms was salt.  It works quickly, imparts the
required finish to the metal, and is durable.

You swab a salt solution on the metal, let it rust, and card it off.  An
asphaltum or linseed oil coating was often used to kill the action.  Many
early military firearms were finished this way, and it was a simple method
for "contract" guns which had to be built in large quantity and finished
under a deadline.

I ain't saying that it was used on Northwest guns, but they fit the profile.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:43:00 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

> I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the
black
> powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were able
> to push the settlements back.

Larry,

Sure am glad someone agrees with me. <G> I am not sure I agree with what was
contended in "The History of the Gun" though. I see that as an
oversimplification and romantization of the relationship between different
weapons.

The reson for this was that they could throw
> more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I
> can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one
> bullet.

No doubt that a disparity in fire power existed but a bit of speculation and
extrapolation on known history says it was more complicated than just a
matter of fire power. If we're talking about the advent of repeating arms as
the point when the First People lost the battle to throw back the new comer
then let's talk about what happened prior to that.

In early America both Indian and White were soon similarly armed. Whites at
times encroached on Indian lands with success and other times the fortunes
of war were against them but right up to the advent of the Rocky Mt. Fur
Trade Era in the early 1800's White culture was moving west inexorably
without the advantage of repeating arms.

During the Western Fur Trade Whites were sucessful in conducting business
out into the center of the great Plains Indian Culture without the advantage
of repeating arms and the Oregon Trail Migration took place with little
military conflict of arms between Whites and Indians without the advantage
of repeating arms. Much of the West was settled by the time of the great
indian wars on the Plains. The Indian didn't try or was not effective in
holding back European Westward movement with or without repeating arms. So
my take on all this is that the conclusions reached by the authors of that
book are flawed big time.

In Europe, the bow gave way to the gun mainly because it was easier to train
a soldier to use a musket than raise him from infancy to shoot a long bow
with effect. But Long bows were still effective in battle for some time
after the introduction of the gun. Just not easily learned. Respectfully, I
remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:44:40 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TRADE GUNS

Senior moment <G>
> Pendleton

Pendleton,

My senior moments start less than a day back. No memory of anything past
this morning. <G> Capt. L



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Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 01:56:26 GMT
From: "larry sherman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

I'll have to agree with you again.


>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
>Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:43:00 -0700
>
>
>
> > I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the
>black
> > powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were
>able
> > to push the settlements back.
>
>Larry,
>
>Sure am glad someone agrees with me. <G> I am not sure I agree with what
>was
>contended in "The History of the Gun" though. I see that as an
>oversimplification and romantization of the relationship between different
>weapons.
>
>The reson for this was that they could throw
> > more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons.
>I
> > can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one
> > bullet.
>
>No doubt that a disparity in fire power existed but a bit of speculation
>and
>extrapolation on known history says it was more complicated than just a
>matter of fire power. If we're talking about the advent of repeating arms
>as
>the point when the First People lost the battle to throw back the new comer
>then let's talk about what happened prior to that.
>
>In early America both Indian and White were soon similarly armed. Whites at
>times encroached on Indian lands with success and other times the fortunes
>of war were against them but right up to the advent of the Rocky Mt. Fur
>Trade Era in the early 1800's White culture was moving west inexorably
>without the advantage of repeating arms.
>
>During the Western Fur Trade Whites were sucessful in conducting business
>out into the center of the great Plains Indian Culture without the
>advantage
>of repeating arms and the Oregon Trail Migration took place with little
>military conflict of arms between Whites and Indians without the advantage
>of repeating arms. Much of the West was settled by the time of the great
>indian wars on the Plains. The Indian didn't try or was not effective in
>holding back European Westward movement with or without repeating arms. So
>my take on all this is that the conclusions reached by the authors of that
>book are flawed big time.
>
>In Europe, the bow gave way to the gun mainly because it was easier to
>train
>a soldier to use a musket than raise him from infancy to shoot a long bow
>with effect. But Long bows were still effective in battle for some time
>after the introduction of the gun. Just not easily learned. Respectfully, I
>remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

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Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 21:58:01 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500



> I was wondering if you have any insight on how to restore brain tanned
> leather

>>JIm,
 If it is dirty and kinda dry, just re-brain it.
D



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:59:10 -0700
From: Lee Newbill <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: how about this for a subject?

Mike Moore wrote:

>      Well, there were actually fourteen women and two young white
> ladies in the west before 1840. This does not include the one or two
> found in the southwest prior to 1841. The list as I have it is:

Mike... if you throw in the Nor'Westers in the Oregon territory, the list
expands a bit more with a white woman (english barmaid) ..... I forget her
name, in 1813, not to mention the many Metis of various mixtures.

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill


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Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:59:48 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

Larry,
I was always under the impresion that what desemated the Indian society was
Disease? not Black Powder Weapons and the Horse. It also seams to me that
the tribes were so bussy fighting and killing each other that it was easy
for europeans to devide and subjegate the tribes, one by one. If the Indian
tribes had posesion of black powder weapons and the horse, the killing of
each other would have made the hundred years war in Europe look like a
church social. Some of the tribes discribed by George Catlin were practicing
Human Sacrafice into the 1830's and now there is a theory that the Anestazi
may have practiced Canabalism, no wonder some of them built there homes on
clifs. OK now how is that for a discusion thread?
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "larry sherman" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
>Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 6:38 PM
>

>
>. If they had been posessors of the
>>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP
>>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I
>>remain...
>>
>>YMOS
>>Capt. Lahti'
>>
>
>
>I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the black
>powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were able
>to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could throw
>more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I
>can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one
>bullet.
>
>Respectfully Larry Sherman
>_________________________________________________________________________
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>
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 02:08:53 GMT
From: "larry sherman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500

The gun and horse are the tools that allowed us a foothold on this country.
Without them we would'nt be here.


>From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:59:48 -0600
>
>Larry,
>I was always under the impresion that what desemated the Indian society was
>Disease? not Black Powder Weapons and the Horse. It also seams to me that
>the tribes were so bussy fighting and killing each other that it was easy
>for europeans to devide and subjegate the tribes, one by one. If the Indian
>tribes had posesion of black powder weapons and the horse, the killing of
>each other would have made the hundred years war in Europe look like a
>church social. Some of the tribes discribed by George Catlin were
>practicing
>Human Sacrafice into the 1830's and now there is a theory that the Anestazi
>may have practiced Canabalism, no wonder some of them built there homes on
>clifs. OK now how is that for a discusion thread?
>YMOS
>Ole # 718
>----------
> >From: "larry sherman" <[e-mail]>
> >To: [e-mail]
> >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:15:27 -0500
> >Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000, 6:38 PM
> >
>
> >
> >. If they had been posessors of the
> >>horse AND THE GUN, it might have been a different history. But pre BP
> >>Europeans probably would not have made any inroads on this continent. I
> >>remain...
> >>
> >>YMOS
> >>Capt. Lahti'
> >>
> >
> >
> >I agree. The book THE HISTORY OF THE GUN documents that even with the
>black
> >powder and until the creation of repeating arms that the indians were
>able
> >to push the settlements back. The reson for this was that they could
>throw
> >more arrows faster than the settlers could load and fire their weapons. I
> >can't find my book right now but it was somthing like 4 arrows to one
> >bullet.
> >
> >Respectfully Larry Sherman
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> >http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>----------------------
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