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hist_text-digest       Tuesday, August 22 2000       Volume 01 : Number 611



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Debarkin Lodgepole Pine
-áááááá MtMan-List: Still Hunting !!!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Debarkin Lodgepole Pine
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, Capt. (OFF TOPIC)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Still Hunting !!!
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)
-áááááá Fw: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)
-áááááá Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Lost Address - Off Topic
-áááááá MtMan-List: Hair Pipe
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Santa Fe trade inquiry
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Santa Fe trade inquiry
-áááááá MtMan-List: Hairpipe....redux
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle?

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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:34:22 -0500
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Debarkin Lodgepole Pine

Ever try a drawshave?

northwoods


- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: August 19, 2000 6:20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Debarkin Lodgepole Pine


>Hallo the List,
>
>I now know why the Indians cut their lodgepole pine in the spring, and it
>ain't cause there's still snow in the hills and it's easier to drag em out.
>It would normaly only take me an hour or so to blow the bark off a dozen or
>so poles with a high pressure water cleaner in the Spring, but today it
took
>that long to do just six. It may have something to do with it being hot and
>dusty in the NW, the bark being thick, and it does not come off without a
>fight. Anyway, get your poles in the spring.....
>
>Ymos,
>Magpie
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 16:55:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Still Hunting !!!

Hello the list,
 Still hunting anyone that may be interested in coming
to the Chouteau Days Celebration, at Salina, Ok. Oct.
6-7-8th.
 We need school demos Fri, and public demos Sat.
 It will be at the Chouteau Museum, they have about 3
acres of museum, and city park area to set up on.
 Anyone close enough, and want to help ??
 If you have trade goods, bring them. (kids and
public)
 not many "skinners" attended last year.
 Hope you might post this on any othet site you know
of for me.( Open camp-late 1700's-mid 1800's)
 thanks
 George

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail û Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 19:47:39 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Debarkin Lodgepole Pine

In a message dated 8/19/00 4:33:20 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Ever try a drawshave?


northwoods

 >>

Hallo Northwoods..... Yup, have tried a draw knife, but you won't believe how
nice the poles look when you pressure clean the bark off. Smooth, no nick or
cuts, and a bright shiney finish.... still gotta cut and file the limb and
knots down though. I can do enough poles for a lodge in about an hour in the
spring when the bark is loose...

Hey....where that bark canoe tape!

Ymos
Steve

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Date: 19 Aug 2000 19:27:05 -0700
From: Concho <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Congrats Concho, Capt. (OFF TOPIC)

>  The same Capt. from me - enjoy every minute. (the only senseable remarks the three have made - Dennis, Larry and Gabby - the New Three St........).
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AND WE CALL HIM FRIEND & BROTHER

> Yes Concho I was offered a position (limited to special projects - my choice) with HRD,..............
> Resource & Documentation for:
>    ______________________________________________

HOW DID YOU PULL THIS OFF - (limited to special projects - my choice), I WASN'T GIVEN AN OPTION ?

DID THE LIST DIE OR IS EVERYONE OUT ON THE GROUND !!!!



In the footsteps of others,

D. L. "Concho" Smith
Historical Advisor for:
   ______________________________________________
         HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT
"Research & field trials in the manner of our forefathers,
                before production".
   ________________________________________HRD__
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:03:51 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Still Hunting !!!

george---

thats about the start of muzzle season in arkansas---if its earlier
steave and i may try to make it---



    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce        "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line "  trademark (C)
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor florida 34684        Phone Number:  1-727-771-1815
E-Mail: [e-mail]   Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1980 20:27:22 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)

I finally go around to doing some digging on the subject of corn oil. I
found these sites:

www.corn.org/web/history.htm  A Brief History of the Corn Refining Industry
- --says that the first commercial production of corn oil took place in 1889.

www.mazola.org
- --says Mazola introduced in June 1911

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:31:56 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)

Angela,
  Looks like the references to corn oil used as a waterproofing were
incorrect, but I wonder what they were refering to as "corn oil" ?
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
<[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, August 19, 2000 7:53 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader)


I finally go around to doing some digging on the subject of corn oil. I
found these sites:

www.corn.org/web/history.htm  A Brief History of the Corn Refining Industry
- --says that the first commercial production of corn oil took place in 1889.

www.mazola.org
- --says Mazola introduced in June 1911

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 20:39:51 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)

Angela,

Thanks. I took a look at the site too. Well, it was a good idea anyway.
Anyone know of a whale that has washed up on the shore some where? I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
- ----- Original Message -----



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Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 23:04:51 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)

Webster's 1828 Dictionary describes corn as an edible seed from a =
variety of plants (see below).  Could the original reference to corn oil =
have meant something different from what is meant today?  Vegetable oils =
were know at this time (see below).  Terminology and word useage have =
changed, sometimes radically, over the last two centuries, making =
assumptions risky.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Lanney Ratcliff=20

CORN, n. [G., L. See Grain.]
1. A single seed of certain plants, as wheat, rye, barley and maiz; a =
grain.  In this sense, it has a plural; as, three barley corns make an =
inch.  It is generally applied to edible seeds, which, when ripe, are =
hard.
OIL, n.  It seems to be named from its inflammability, for aelan, is to =
kindle, and to oil; hence anaelan, to anneal; aeled, fire.  L. oleum; =
Gr.]
An unctuous substance expressed or drawn from several animal and =
vegetable substances.  The distinctive characters of oil are =
inflammability, fluidity, and insolubility in water.  Oils are fixed or =
fat, and volatile or essential.  They have a smooth feel, and most of =
them have little taste or smell.  Animal oil is found in all animal =
substances.  Vegetable oils are produced by expression, infusion or =
distillation.



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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 01:10:08 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Fw: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)

In a message dated 8/19/00 9:05:52 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< CORN, n. [G., L. See Grain.]

1. A single seed of certain plants, as wheat, rye, barley and maiz; a grain.
>>

Angela...... how about "Maiz oil"..... worth a try?

Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:32:09 -0400
From: tom roberts <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Lost Address - Off Topic

Will the kind folks who's "nom de email" is "wefarmasmidgen"
please contact me off list?  I've lost your address.

Thanks!

Tom


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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:08:49 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Hair Pipe

hello the camp!  sorry to be so late with this response, but I just found
this link buried in my favs ;), and it seems to have some very well
researched information on the subject. Check it out... <A
HREF="http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/tptoc.htm">Hair Pipes in Plains
Indian Adornment</A>    Barney

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Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 22:32:36 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)

In reference to corn oil....the website indicated that the first "commercial"
production of corn oil began in 1889.  There are lots of products used by
early settlers in many parts of the country (world) that were used long
before they became "commercially: available.  Many products were produced and
used at home.  Especially in an agrarian society.  Dairy products, meats,
grains were all available to many early inhabitants long before they were
commercially available commercially.  That some crops were sold or traded is
a fact but others were produced for the consumption of the individuals.. Why
not corn oil?  Could it be that while there was a use for the product the
demand was insufficient to create a commercially viable product.
Just my on rambling thoughts but it seems to me corn oil could have been
available for use even if not a "commercially" viable product at the time.

YMOS,

Steve

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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 03:03:00 GMT
From: "scott mcmahon" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Santa Fe trade inquiry

    Does anyone out there know where to find invoices with costs for Santa Fe
trade goods? I'm looking for something to give me an idea of what they paid
for goods in the east. I'd also like to find some information on what wages
were paid to teamsters, hunters and the various other positions on a Santa
Fe bound trade caravan. I was told there was some inventories for Bent's
Fort in the Chouteau collections but don't have a contact for this...any
help/suggestions? Anyone out there doing a Santa Fe trade impression? Look
forward to any and all suggestions and information.

    Most Sincerely,
    Scott McMahon
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 03:12:39 GMT
From: "wayne anderson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle?

List,

I've heard that "diah's" rifle is in a muesum and that for a time a copy of
it was produced by one of the Italian manufacture.  does anyone have any
information on this thread???

Wayne
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 23:03:43 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)

Steve,

As I wrote over a week ago; since this topic came up I have searched for=20
early references to corn oil. I have found none.

 From the information on the corn.org site it sounds as if the extraction=20
of corn oil is not the simple process an oil like linseed is to=20
extract.  The short history clearly states that the first corn refining=20
didn't take place until 1844.  45 years later they learned to extract oil=20
from the up to then waste product germ.  This is not a simple technology=20
folks did back on the farm.

I suspect corn was so important as a food crop no one was much interested=20
in processing it into an oil which could be more easily extracted from less=
=20
valuable plant and animal materials.

John...


At 10:32 PM 8/20/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>In reference to corn oil....the website indicated that the first=
 "commercial"
>production of corn oil began in 1889.  There are lots of products used by
>early settlers in many parts of the country (world) that were used long
>before they became "commercially: available.  Many products were produced=
 and
>used at home.  Especially in an agrarian society.  Dairy products, meats,
>grains were all available to many early inhabitants long before they were
>commercially available commercially.  That some crops were sold or traded=
 is
>a fact but others were produced for the consumption of the individuals..=
 Why
>not corn oil?  Could it be that while there was a use for the product the
>demand was insufficient to create a commercially viable product.
>Just my on rambling thoughts but it seems to me corn oil could have been
>available for use even if not a "commercially" viable product at the time.
>
>YMOS,
>
>Steve
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>


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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 08:45:54 -0400
From: "Dennis Earp" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was:  Muzzleloader)

Angela,

If I'm not mistaken, in eighteeenth century Ireland, all grain was referred
to as "corn".
This could have a bearing on the meaning of the oil being used, but I'm not
aware of
any other vegetable oils used at that time.

Dennis Earp

- ---- Original Message -----
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 1980 10:27 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: corn oil (was: Muzzleloader)


> I finally go around to doing some digging on the subject of corn oil. I
> found these sites:
>
> www.corn.org/web/history.htm  A Brief History of the Corn Refining
Industry
> --says that the first commercial production of corn oil took place in
1889.
>
> www.mazola.org
> --says Mazola introduced in June 1911
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:58:02 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle?

Wayne,

Who is this "diah" of whom you speak?  Lots of people refer to Jedediah Smith
by such a name but other than historians and novel writers, I've never seen
"diah" in a primary source document.  If you have, let me know.

As for Jedediah Smith's gun, I've never heard that any rifle traced back to
him was ever found but one of his pistols was displayed in a museum in San
Diego until they were stolen on October 27, 1961.

The pistol was a pecussion, half-stock .50 caliber.  It had a 9 1/2 inch
octagonal barrel and was 15 1/2 inches in length.  Several good pictures
exist and I can direct you toward them if you like.  Carl P. Russel described
it as an "English duelling-pistol type, well made..."

Jim Hardee, AMM#1676

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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:19:18 -0600
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Santa Fe trade inquiry

Scott,
    If you check with the Palace of the Govenors in Sante Fe,
I imagine they would have what you want. Another place,
possibly would be the Kit Carson Museum in Taos or Bent's
Fort themselves.. My web site has the email addresses on one
of the pages.
                                    mike.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~amm1616

scott mcmahon wrote:

>         Does anyone out there know where to find invoices with costs for Santa Fe
> trade goods? I'm looking for something to give me an idea of what they paid
> for goods in the east. I'd also like to find some information on what wages
> were paid to teamsters, hunters and the various other positions on a Santa
> Fe bound trade caravan. I was told there was some inventories for Bent's
> Fort in the Chouteau collections but don't have a contact for this...any
> help/suggestions? Anyone out there doing a Santa Fe trade impression? Look
> forward to any and all suggestions and information.
>
>         Most Sincerely,
>         Scott McMahon
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:45:37 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Hairpipe....redux

While reading on a totally different subject, I ran across the following
tidbits in "Speaking of Indians", University of Arizona Press, 1970.  It
might help clear up some of the mystery discussed earlier in the thread a
while back.

"Probably the longest run a style ever had was that of the "hairpipe."  It
was worn over four thousand years ago and is still in use.  A company in New
York still supplies them, as they and their predecessors have for 135 years.

Ancient burials turn up hair pipes in the eastern US.  They were made of the
columns of shells traded from the coast, from rolled copper, bone, and stone.

In 1735, an Irishman named William Campbell settled in New York, and for
years, his family manufactured wampum for the Indians from clam shells.
Later, they concentrated on hair pipes.  The business was handed down to the
great-great-grandsons.  Others made pipes too, but the Campbells held a
monopoly.

Their pipes were made from the lip of the conch, Strombus gigas, that was
carried as ship's ballast to New York from the West Indies.  They bought them
in lot of five to ten thousand.

The family had a secret finishing process that helped them corner the market.
 It involved baking the shells to whiten them, soaking them in buttermilk to
soften them for drilling, tempering metal drills in sheep's tallow, and
polishing the pipes with sand and water.  The hardest part was drilling the
long shells by hand, which limited production to 100 a day per man.  With the
ingenious invention of a machine that turned out 6 at a time, production
zoomed to 400 per day.

....in 1878, a trader to the Ponca indians was surprised to witness a sudden
surge in the demand for corncob pipes.  Not until he was shown a necklace
made from bone pipestems was the mystery cleared up.  The trader contacted
the pipe manufacturer, who contacted Armour and Company of Chicago, and ,
with an unlimited supply of cattle leg bones, a new enterprise was born.
Bone hair pipes were the big news, and the Campbells went out of business.

........because power tools were used, production costs were lowered, and the
pipe sold cheaper.

John Jacob Astor, among others, distributed hair pipes  [made of shell].
Lewis and Clarrk carried them as presents to Indian chiefs.  ....the bauble
became very popular and spread across the plains."

Perhaps this will clear up some of the confusion we associate with the
semantics of hair pipe.
I summarize:
1.  Hair pipe for trade in quantity were around sometime after 1735.
2.  They were made from shell, rather than bone, but other materials were
sparsely used.
3.  With the introduction of corncob pipes using bone pipe stems, the Indians
saw an alternative to the highly priced shell hair pipes.
4.  Bone hair pipes did not become popular until after 1878.
5.  This iformation would seem to indicate that any hair pipe used or traded
during the RMFT era would have been made of shell.

There were no footnotes to this article which pointed to any primary sources,
and the suggested reading list pointed to no further information which might
clear up the mystery; however, the book appeared to be well researched.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:22:09 -0500
From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: diah's rifle?

> I've heard that "diah's" rifle is in a muesum and that for a time a copy
of
> it was produced by one of the Italian manufacture.  does anyone have any
> information on this thread???
>
>
I don't know who owned the rifle used as the pattern for the "Santa Fe
Hawken"
made by Uberti several years ago. That could be the gun you are refering to.

These were quality guns, good shooters, and about 95% + historically correct
copy.
And in .53 cal, yet.

J.D.


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