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hist_text-digest        Sunday, August 6 2000        Volume 01 : Number 603



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: I need horn
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: I need horn
-áááááá MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá MtMan-List: bag question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bag question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bag question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bag question
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: bag question
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver

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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 16:24:49 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...


> Ok.... not many pines on the West side of the Cascades, cept Lodgepole,
will
> any evergreen pitch work? Got lottsa Douglas Fir here...

Magpie,

Don't think there are any lodgepole over on your side, just tall skinny
trees that grow in tight clumps trying to reach the sun which hardly ever
shows itself anyway. But they are not lodge pole pine. Probably fir.

Fir pitch (any pitch) will work. Capt. L




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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 17:31:07 -0600
From: Joe Brandl <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I need horn

Dennis,
I believe I might have some horn tips, five inches is pretty long for
solid horn, will trade

more later
Joe
Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com
Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440
New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!!

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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:43:15 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

In a message dated 8/3/00 5:21:23 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Don't think there are any lodgepole over on your side, just tall skinny
 trees that grow in tight clumps trying to reach the sun which hardly ever
 shows itself anyway. But they are not lodge pole pine. Probably fir.
  >>
Haaaaa....I agree, it don't shine here....but where do ya think I got all the
poles for my lodge? Great stand of lodgepole just south of Mt St Helens...

Ymos,
Steve

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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:22:12 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: I need horn

Joe Wrote:   "five inches is pretty long for  solid horn"


Joe...Anything over 4" will work fine...
Thankee
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

 "Knowing how is just the beginning"
,


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:31:28 -0700
From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge

Hello this technical discussion group.
Two things: First.  Had a long time, I mean a long time bp shooter in
Montana tell me that the "old" guys used to shoot their rifles over the
snow, when unburned black powder showed on the ground they backed her down
just a shade and stayed with that load.  Probably few of them old guys gave
much of hoot, nor could they have known  a lot about muzzle velocity, etc.
Probably when they felt it was right, it was right.  My old buddy said that
they just knew when they weren't wasting powder and that their rifle was
tuned to where they wanted it.  I have no idea where his info came from, but
felt then as now, he knew of which he was speaking.  I did that and in my
altered old indianized CVA much more than 85 grains was making the snow
black.  Second.  I have heard, or read, that one of the reasons that the
long barreled rifle was so popular was the sighting plane.  The longer the
distance between the rear and front sight the more accurate the sight
register.  Them guys musta not worn bifocals.  I can see one sight or the
other on my 26" barrel, not both.
Just info.  Have no idea as to accuracy of any of it.
Regards,
John Barber


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:11:26 -0500
From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

>   >>
> Ok.... not many pines on the West side of the Cascades, cept Lodgepole,
will
> any evergreen pitch work? Got lottsa Douglas Fir here...
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
>
I believe the pitch produced by any pitch producing tree  will do. Some
better than others, but the pitch of cherry, any pine, and birch  should
work.
Birch tar needs to be "rendered"
from the bark by heating the bark and allowing the birch tar to seep  out of
the
bark...or so I'm told. I have no experience with birch tar.

Just cut the bark in an upward direction, to reduce the chance of causing
disease
and insect infestation, and wait for the sap to ooze from the wound.
The longer the pitch sits on the tree, the more solid it gets.


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 20:48:41 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...


> Haaaaa....I agree, it don't shine here....but where do ya think I got all
the
> poles for my lodge? Great stand of lodgepole just south of Mt St Helens...

Magpie,

Are they "Lodge Pole PINE" or tall skinny fir? Most of my lodge poles came
from WA. east side and they are mostly fir. Capt. L





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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:11:04 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge

John,

I must say I agree with most of what your saying as practical wisdom from
long ago. But wasn't this discussion on the MLML list rather than the
MtMan-List? Or am I getting more senile than I think. <G> Capt. L

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "atthesea" <[e-mail]>
To: "Mountain Man List" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 7:31 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge


> Hello this technical discussion group.
> Two things: First.  Had a long time, I mean a long time bp shooter in
> Montana tell me that the "old" guys used to shoot their rifles over the
> snow, when unburned black powder showed on the ground they backed her down
> just a shade and stayed with that load.  Probably few of them old guys
gave
> much of hoot, nor could they have known  a lot about muzzle velocity, etc.
> Probably when they felt it was right, it was right.  My old buddy said
that
> they just knew when they weren't wasting powder and that their rifle was
> tuned to where they wanted it.  I have no idea where his info came from,
but
> felt then as now, he knew of which he was speaking.  I did that and in my
> altered old indianized CVA much more than 85 grains was making the snow
> black.  Second.  I have heard, or read, that one of the reasons that the
> long barreled rifle was so popular was the sighting plane.  The longer the
> distance between the rear and front sight the more accurate the sight
> register.  Them guys musta not worn bifocals.  I can see one sight or the
> other on my 26" barrel, not both.
> Just info.  Have no idea as to accuracy of any of it.
> Regards,
> John Barber
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 23:25:16 -0500
From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge

Capt. L,
Your are right in both cases, the thread was on MLML and yes, you probably
are getting more senile than you think.<G>
Harddog


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Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 22:12:26 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "harddog" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2000 9:25 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Barrel length/powder charge


more senile than you think.<G>

Harddog,

Thanks for the confermation. Isn't the above an oxymoron? <G> Capt. L




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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 01:22:09 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

To gather pitch, take a small paper bag and your hatchet.  Go in to the woods
and scan all the coniferous trees in the vicinity.  Diseased trees with
insect borers in them seem to be better.  There will be large knots of dried
pitch on the sides of these diseased trees.  Hack it off with your hatchet
and put it in the bag.  Don't pay any attention to how gross it looks.

When you have enough, take it home and put it in a large tomato can.  Place
it on the stove at the lowest possible heat setting.  Let it remain there
until it melts.  Take a small forked stick and use it to scoop out all the
bark, twigs, and dead bugs.

Don't forget to bend a spout on the tomato can.  Pour it in to smaller metal
containers for future use.  I use old percussion cap tins.  It will harden
into a light brown, plastic solid.  When you get ready to use it, heat it up
again per John Dearing's instructions.  The hotter you heat it, the harder it
will be when it dries.  The soft stuff remains flexible, so it is not real
good as a glue.  Mix powdered charcoal in with it to make pitch glue.  The
hotter it gets, the darker and thinner it will become, until it almost has
the consistency and color of real maple syrup. (not Karo)  It is then ready
to be used as a glue.

PS, it does burn, but just remove it from the heat and blow it out if it
catches on fire.
If it happens to be on your skin when it does this, just plan on being
disfigured for a while.

If you screw it up, write me offlist and I will send you some.

Dave Kanger

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 08:54:21 -0500
From: "Frank Fusco" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: bag question

Bob Spencer wrote,

     <In mid-18th century the horns were quite large and
tended to be fancy, with engraving, carving.>

Bob
    I enjoyed your explanation of the evolution of bag design, very
informative.  However, your statement regarding horns brings out some
misconceptions that carry over into all kinds of antiquities, guns and
everyday items as well.
    Most research is based on what survived and is available for study
today.  In other words, what did not survive is not studied and conclusions
are often based on the study of surviving items only.
    As with things used today, ordinary items are discarded when they become
worn out or obsolete. 'Back then' the same thing happened.  The common
working gun was ignored or even trashed when a better one became available.
Same with horns.
`    On the other hand fancy or presentation pieces were cherished, cared
for and passed on to succeeding generations.  Check the museums, fancy guns
greatly outnumber plain or working guns. I spoke with a gun museum curator
recently who actually declines donations of non-fancy guns, he will refuse
an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy. I
disagree with him but he is the curator.
    My point is, I believe you would have been more accurate to say that
"some" horns got fancier.  I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room
cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he
went hunting.
Respectfully,
Frank G. Fusco
Mountain Home, Arkansas


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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:07:46 -0400
From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question

>    Most research is based on what survived and is available for study
>today.  In other words, what did not survive is not studied and conclusions
>are often based on the study of surviving items only.

That's certainly true, Frank. Still, I believe there are other factors
involved. At any give period in time, people favor certain styles. These
preferences don't usually last, and another style comes into vogue, for
whatever reasons. I think that has something to do with the fact that those
who study and collect horns recognize a distinct French and Indian War
'style' horn, for instance. They don't, however, speak of Revolutionary War
style horns, just horns of the Revolutionary period.

We can see the same thing in guns. After the Revolution, with a surplus of
gunsmiths needing to make a living and a decreased demand for guns, the
guns became more ornate, and you got more 'bang for your buck', because of
the severe competition. So, we wind up with the Golden Age Rifle. They were
popular for 25 years, or so, but then they quickly declined, for several
reasons. Who can doubt that guns from the 1820 period were much more plain,
showed much less taste than those of 1790?

>`    On the other hand fancy or presentation pieces were cherished, cared
>for and passed on to succeeding generations.  Check the museums, fancy guns
>greatly outnumber plain or working guns.

You are absolutely right. If my comments lead anyone to believe that *all*
horns were fancy, I mislead them. I didn't mean to say that. I should have
said that more fancy horns were made early on, fewer later. There were
probably always a preponderance of plainer horns throughout the period.

As far as size is concerned, I suspect that was related to function.  It
just takes a lot less powder to hunt than it does to make war, and most of
those early, large, decorative horns were related to military exploits.
Because of larger caliber guns, maybe, but certainly a need to have an
ample reserve of powder. It's of little concern if you run out of powder on
a squirrel hunt. <G>

>    My point is, I believe you would have been more accurate to say that
>"some" horns got fancier.  I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room
>cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he
>went hunting.

You are probably right (except that I said they got plainer, not fancier).
It depends on what picture we have of the situation at that time, doesn't
it? Because we are particularly interested in the frontiers at different
periods, we tend to think in those terms. The fact is, though, that those
on the frontier made up a fairly small percentage of the population at
large, so we may be forcing ourselves into a skewed perspective.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Louisville, KY
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html



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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 14:14:33 -0500
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank Fusco <[e-mail]>
To: AMM <[e-mail]>
Date: August 04, 2000 8:55 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: bag question


>>Bob Spencer wrote,
>>
>>     <In mid-18th century the horns were quite large and
>>tended to be fancy, with engraving, carving.>


>    I enjoyed your explanation of the evolution of bag design, very
>informative.  However, your statement regarding horns brings out some
>misconceptions that carry over into all kinds of antiquities, guns and
>everyday items as well.


I'm with Bob on this one. Mid and late 18th century horns were quite large
and tended to be fancy with engraving and carving.  They were large and had
large spouts because the calibers used were larger. They were often carved
and practically always engraved. By the end of King Georges War (1748)
powderhorns had evolved into highly sophisticated personal items. During the
French and Indian War decorated powder horns were "fashionable". By trading
favors with friends or fellow soldiers they often had there horns carved and
engraved in a professional manner.
A good portion of men chose to carve there own horns and they were only
limited by there talent and imagination. The "golden age" of the engraved
powder horn was during the last half of the 18th century. By the end of the
War of 1812 the earlier high art form disappeared.

>  I doubt the guy raising seven kids in a one room
>cabin in the wilderness cared whether his horn was fancy or plain when he
>went hunting.

Next to his wife and children a mans powder horn was often times his most
cherished possession. Bob was correct in pointing out that horns were
larger, and fancier...

northwoods


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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 16:12:40 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Length/Powder Charge

In a message dated 8/3/00 7:36:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<<  Them guys musta not worn bifocals.  I can see one sight or the
 other on my 26" barrel, not both. >>

Try moving your rear sight forward toward the muzzle.  Young eyes can see the
back sight at 6 or 8 inches ahead of the breech, but us old grey beards need
a bit more distance so's we can see both sights at the same time.  Read
somewhere Daniel Boone's rifle had 2 dove tail slugs in the barrel where the
rear sight had been moved forward to compensate for his eye sight.
Evidently, this is a "period fix" for aging eyes.  Can anybody verify this?
Eye sight ain't the only thing that goes south on us with age, huh, Capt?  8)

NM

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 17:29:58 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

In a message dated 8/3/00 8:44:52 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<<
Are they "Lodge Pole PINE" or tall skinny fir? Most of my lodge poles came
from WA. east side and they are mostly fir. Capt. L
 >>

Yup...they sure are lodgepole pine! Got a bunch of skinny fir around, but
this ain't them. Even had to get a permit to cut the "lodgepole pine" from
the forest service... Hey... I brought a couple over for you at the PVLR, but
you said you'd get some in Idaho.

Magpie

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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:01:52 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

> Yup...they sure are lodgepole pine! Got a bunch of skinny fir around, but
> this ain't them. Even had to get a permit to cut the "lodgepole pine" from
> the forest service... Hey... I brought a couple over for you at the PVLR,
but
> you said you'd get some in Idaho.

Magpie,

Well, I never got the job done with puttin up and tak'in down the Rendezvous
I just never made time. Sorry I didn't take you up on your offer last time
we were in close prox. Next time. <G> Capt. L




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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:54:30 -0400
From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question

Frank Fusco wrote:

>  I spoke with a gun museum curator recently who actually declines donations
> of non-fancy guns, he will refuse
> an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy.

If it was me, I have him refer all people wanting to donate "Plain Janes" to MY
museum.  I'd gladly accept them...G

Manbear


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Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 21:54:30 -0400
From: manbear <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: bag question

Frank Fusco wrote:

>  I spoke with a gun museum curator recently who actually declines donations
> of non-fancy guns, he will refuse
> an 18th century plain [not plains] rifle because he considers it unworthy.

If it was me, I have him refer all people wanting to donate "Plain Janes" to MY
museum.  I'd gladly accept them...G

Manbear


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 11:37:22 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West

Hi All,  I just wanted to commend the folks at North Star West, makers of
fine Trade Guns and Kits.  I lost the Screw which holds the hammer to the
lock.  I called to order it, and they are sending it to me at NO CHARGE.
It wasn't their fault that I lost the screw.  I offered to pay, and they
said, we'll warranty it.  I've had the gun nearly 10 years.   Good folks,
just wanted to publicly tip my hat to them.   hardtack

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Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 17:32:10 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan- North Star West

Had the same happen to and they did the same .GREAT PEOPLE.

traphand

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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 13:37:00 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver

Summer Greetings to the List:

Last month I asked if anyone remembered a reference to "rum the beaver," a
story I stumbled upon in my research.  I couldn't remember the meaning of the
term.

Not content to rest until I relocated the reference . . . .

I share the story.  It is from the Autobiography of Stephen Hall Meek.

. . . I became imbued with that restless spirit of adventure that has since
been a marked characteristic of my life, and left my home for the then
comparatively unknown West.  St. Louis was at the time the center of the fur
trade of the United States, and when I reached that city I engaged with the
Rocky Mountain Fur Company, to work in their warehouses.  I was placed in the
cellar by the celebrated William Sublette with several other green hands to
"rum the beaver," which operation consisted of spreading the skins out upon
the cellar floor and sprinkling them with rum for preservation.  Sublette
left us with the remark, "Don't you boys get tight now," at which idea we all
laughed.  Soon the fumes of the rum began to affect us and it was not long
before we were reeling around the room apparently helplessly drunk.  Sublette
then put in an appearance, and pretended to be angry with us "Can't I leave
you here alone for a few minutes without your getting drunk?  Do you think
that this is the kind of men I want around me?  Here!" said he "drink this"
and he drew a cup from the barrel.  This had the effect of making us sober
again and Sublette again left us with the remark " The next time you rum the
beaver, just rum yourselves first."

I found this story on our site:

http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/smeek.html

Fair weather to you all,

Laura Glise
[e-mail]

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