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hist_text-digest        Tuesday, August 1 2000        Volume 01 : Number 600



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Dennis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dennis
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Dennis
-áááááá MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá RE: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Awl-for-All
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá MtMan-List: What to do with the pretty thang?
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...
-áááááá MtMan-List: Longtrail (Off Topic)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Site update
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:33:30 -0500
From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Dennis

> " I can only cut lettuce with the ones I got from you ???"
> What ever makes you happy, O Wise One....<G>
> D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Concho figured it out - we turned the blade over, thanks "Kid".

Oh no!!!  That's what's wrong with Dennis's knives I got..the handles
are on upside down!!

And you'll have to pry them out of my cold, ...fingers to get them away
from me, too.

Still grinning Dennis :)
Mike

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Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:37:52 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dennis

BUCK WROTE:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> - we turned the blade over, thanks "Kid".<


Gentlemen... I have blockbuster of a solution for you.. I make a right handy
double edged sticker... That way, no matter which way you grab it, you have
an edge...
D


"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

 "Knowing how is just the beginning"



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Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:28:53 -0700
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dennis

Now that is Marketing...<s>  hardtack

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Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 19:53:42 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

Hallo the List,

Here's a question that mebbe the Great John Kramer could answer for me......

In the NW we have a wild cherry tree that has a beautiful dark red/silver
bark, and I sometimes use it to back osage or yew bows. The bark is real
strong in the lateral, as it grows, so need a fairly large tree to get the
strips.

Lately, I've seen some of the cherry trees secreting an amber colored sap, in
gobs about as big as your thumb. It's rather sticky stuff under the hard
crust, and I'm thinking it would make a good, natural glue for feathers,
points, or what ever. I tried melting some with heat, (it will not burn with
a flame) but that didn't work. So the question is... what can I dissolve the
sap in, to make up a glue?

Ymos,
Steve


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Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 18:37:22 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

Magpie,

It is either alcohol or water solvent. If it won't burn readily, it is
probably only water solvent and may not work all that well for glue in wet
side WA. Just my guess. I know what your referring to as we get it on our
Domestic Cherry trees over here. Capt. L
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 4:53 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...


> Hallo the List,
>
> Here's a question that mebbe the Great John Kramer could answer for
me......
>
> In the NW we have a wild cherry tree that has a beautiful dark red/silver
> bark, and I sometimes use it to back osage or yew bows. The bark is real
> strong in the lateral, as it grows, so need a fairly large tree to get the
> strips.
>
> Lately, I've seen some of the cherry trees secreting an amber colored sap,
in
> gobs about as big as your thumb. It's rather sticky stuff under the hard
> crust, and I'm thinking it would make a good, natural glue for feathers,
> points, or what ever. I tried melting some with heat, (it will not burn
with
> a flame) but that didn't work. So the question is... what can I dissolve
the
> sap in, to make up a glue?
>
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 21:53:58 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

At 07:53 PM 7/30/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Lately, I've seen some of the cherry trees secreting an amber colored sap,=
=20
>... ...what can I dissolve the sap in, to make up a glue?
>
>Ymos,
>Steve


Hmm,

First: if you want glue why not just use glue?  Boil down the hide &/or=20
hooves of any animal or fish and make glue.

Most tree resin is sticky when it bleeds from a wound.

Off the top of my head I don't remember any recipes calling for cherry=20
resins.  They could probably be distilled to leave a form of turpentine and=
=20
rosin (if you distill for spirits and separate the solids) or more likely=20
cooked down to leave a residue like maple syrup and sugar.

Every tree resin should be soluble in one or more of many essential oils,=20
fixed oils, water, turpentine or alcohol.  Heat may or may not aid the=20
process.

If I encounter any references to using cherry sap I'll try to remember to=20
take note.  The foggy dark corners of my mind seem to want to bring up=20
something about being used in medicine.  Cherry bark of at least one specie=
=20
has certainly been used.  Now where have I hidden that old=20
pharmacology?  If you're interested in following it up start studying=20
decoctions and infusions.

That you're backing bows with it is interesting, if it is that strong it=20
might make good woven bark chair bottoms and backs?  Maybe useful in=20
weaving baskets?


***********************
Here are a couple of period recipes for waterproof glue as verbatim as=20
written as I can verbatim:

FIRE AND WATERPROOF CEMENT
1 gill vinegar
1 gill milk
Seperate the curd and mix the whey with;
5 egg whites
Beat well together and sift sufficient quick lime to convert to consistency=
=20
of thick paste. Vessels mended with this cement never seperate and resist=20
action of both fire and water.


YATES WATERPROOF CEMENT
4 oz. best glue
2 oz isinglass
Dissolve in standard glue pot with mild ale over slow fire to the substance=
=20
of strong glue. 1 1/2 oz. well boiled linseed oil is gradually added and=20
the whole well mixed. When cold and made into cakes it resembles india=20
rubber. Dissolve in equal part ale for use. Used for wood, china,=20
earthenware, glass and leather. For leather apply hot and allow to cool six=
=20
hours while clamped or weighted. By adding a little tow it is suitable for=
=20
sealing casks.

************************************************



John...

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>


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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:06:01 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing

- --- Original Message ---
Joe Brandl <[e-mail]> Wrote on
Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:32:04 -0600
 ------------------
Does paul have a web site/

Yes, temporary for the moment.

Look at www.rendezvoutraders.com

Enter and go to Braddock's Trace Mercantile.

Joe, thanks for the inquiry.

Paul


- -----
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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 11:15:47 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

In a message dated 7/30/00 8:00:26 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< First: if you want glue why not just use glue?  Boil down the hide &/or

hooves of any animal or fish and make glue.

 >>

Thanks John, Capt Lathi,

I'm always looking for some "waterproof" natural glue for fletching, splices,
and sealing.....hide glue works for some, not for others. I tried to dissolve
the resin in mineral spirits, lacquer thinner, alcohol, and water.....only
water worked, so that answered the question. The resin is probably not good
for much....

<<<That you're backing bows with it is interesting, if it is that strong it

might make good woven bark chair bottoms and backs?  Maybe useful in

weaving baskets?>>>

The bark is strong stuff....reminds me of the nylon strapping tape. You can
pull it apart the long way, but not tear it in two. To use it on a chair back
and bottom I'm sure would work well and make a beautiful chair or basket.
You'd need a large tree as your strips need to be cut from around the tree...
John Strunk is a bowyer from Tillamook, OR and has been using cherry bark
backing for years....

What was birch pitch mixed with to make it water proof on bark canoes? (ain't
no stinkin birch around here though)

Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 08:47:31 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

> What was birch pitch mixed with to make it water proof on bark canoes?
(ain't
> no stinkin birch around here though)

Magpie,

There are birch trees around but that's not what they used to seal the seams
of bark canoes. The birch tree's around this part of the country are red
river birch and look a lot like cherry trees and their bark is much like
cherry bark.

I'm guessing on the correct name but I believe it was balsm fir pitch or
probably some other tree's pitch or gum resin. Not water soluble like your
cherry sap. It was mixed with charcoal and perhaps some animal fat and was
heated to make it pliable enough to spread on the seams. Now nobody hold me
to the ingredients on this stuff. <G> But no, not water soluable. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:00:17 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana


John Strunk is a bowyer from Tillamook, OR and has been using cherry bark
backing for years....

Ymos,
Magpie

Hi Magpie,

Woke up this morning just before daylight.  While outside feeding the
critters I watched daylight start up.  About a half an hour after daylight I
turned and headed towards the lodge.  I just stepped in.  When I heard the
sound of branches thrashing from the old cottonwood and loud thump smack the
ground just outside the lodge door.  I grabbed the camp bow and stepped back
outside with three broad head arrows.  I could not believe a mature coon
would fall asleep and then fall out of the tree while breaking his back so
he could not get up.  I could see some white stuff on the muzzle.  So I
pinned him to the ground where I could watch him.  He did not show any more
of the foamy stuff but went into convulsions.  Like some critters do when
they have distemper.  The sheriffs office said they had a similar occurrence
two weeks ago and the test came up negative.  I will take the head in this
afternoon for shipping to the state lab for the test.  I met John Strunk at
a shoot in the Porky Pine Hills west of Cardston, Canada.  We just finished
up a week of bow camp on Clark Bottom.  I opened up the Institute of Crow
Bows Lodge.  Hotter than last year.  More mosquitoes too.  I did not do
anything remarkable at the shoot.  I hit 39 out of 40 targets and shot 11th.
Long hard enduring day.  We moved elk, moose and the gray wolf off the range
as we shot the round.  From Walt's Badgerhole.


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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 12:27:53 -0400
From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

>I'm guessing on the correct name but I believe it was balsm fir pitch or
>probably some other tree's pitch or gum resin. Not water soluble like your
>cherry sap. It was mixed with charcoal and perhaps some animal fat and was
>heated to make it pliable enough to spread on the seams. Now nobody hold me
>to the ingredients on this stuff. <G>

Journal of John Joseph Henry, a riflemen from Pennsylvania, on the march to
Quebec through the wilds of Maine, with B. Arnold, Oct. 11, 1775, from the
book by Kenneth Roberts, _March to Quebec_:

(Their birch bark canoe had been scraped all along the side by a snag,
ripping a gash almost the entire length right under the gunwale.)

"When we had examined the broken canoe, and had rummaged both, for some
means of repairing it, every heart seemed dismayed. Our birch bark and
pitch had been exhausted in former repairs,...."

"Getchel alone was really sedate and reflective. He ordered the other guide
to search for birch bark, whilst he would look among the pines for
turpintine. We followed the one or the other of these worthies, according
to inclination, and soon returned with the desired materials. The cedar
root was in plenty under our feet. Now a difficulty occurred, which had
been unforseen, and which seemed destructive of all hope. This was the want
of fat or oil of every kind, with which to make the turpintine into pitch.
A lucky thought occurred to the youngest of the company, that the pork bag
lay empty and neglected in one of the canoes. The thought and act of
bringing it were instantaneous. The bag was ripped, and as if it had been
so much gold dust, we scraped from it about a pint of dirty fat. Getchel
now prepared an abundance of pitch. The cedar root gave us twine. The canoe
was brought to the fire. We found every rib except a few at the extreme
points, actually torn from the gunwale. All hands set to work-- two hours
afterward, the coanoe was borne to the water."

They went barely 500 yards before the bottom of the canoe was punctured by
another snag, and they returned to the fire for a second repair.

In putting the canoe into the water, yet again, they got one end into the
water, one end still up on the elevated bank, when:

"Mr Boyd's feet slipped-- the canoe fell from his hands-- its own weight
falling upon the cavity formed by the declivity of the bank and the water--
broke it in the centre into two pieces, which were held together by nothing
but the gunwale."

"The canoe was brought to the fire, and placed in a proper posture for the
operation. The lacerated parts were neatly brought together, and sewed with
cedar root. A large ridge of pitch, as is customary in the construction of
this kind of water craft, was laid over the seam to make it water tight.
Over the seam a patch of strong bark a foot in width and of a length
sufficient to encircle the bottom, even to the gunwales, was sewed down at
the edges and pitched. Again over the whole of the work it was thought
prudent to place our pork bag, which was saturated with liquid fat. It was
a full yard wide, and was laid down in the same manner. This work, which
was laborious, nearly consumed the rest of the day."

The patch held, they made it back to the army.

Bob



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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:01:48 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Awl-for-All

Matt,
    I have used this little gem of mine for a number of different projects.
From making wallets to bullet pouches and moccassins.  I even made a leather
hunting shirt for one of my wife's teddy bears that we dressed up as a
mountain man.( she's in a collecters club and she even makes her own
miniatures.  We made one of those too, it was all of 3.5" tall!  She's great,
she even knitted wool touques for them to wear!)  Sorry, I got side-tracked.
We gave one to my best friend for his birthday last year, and he sewed up an
elk hide case for his flinter.   It just works great, even if its not period
correct.

Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith
Boise, ID

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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:52:22 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

In a message dated 7/31/00 9:01:49 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<<  I met John Strunk at

a shoot in the Porky Pine Hills west of Cardston, Canada.  We just finished

up a week of bow camp on Clark Bottom.  I opened up the Institute of Crow

Bows Lodge.  >>

Hi Walt,

I just talked to J. Strunk at the North American Long Bow Safari in
Brownsville, OR not long ago....know him rather well. I have one of his
cherry barked yew longbows that is a work of art. He lives not far from me...

I've been flying in and out of Billings all last month, and have been meaning
to track you down.... I think you mentioned something about working at the
museum there (by the airport?). I'm camping in Helena every Thursday
afternoon if you get over that way.

You have a computer in yer lodge?

Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:18:01 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

In a message dated 7/31/00 9:30:55 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Getchel alone was really sedate and reflective. He ordered the other guide
to search for birch bark, whilst he would look among the pines for
turpintine. >>

Great story!   So.....Let me get this straight...the pine pitch is the
"turpintine", add some animal fat, in this case pork fat, heat, and you have
a good, waterproof glue!
I'll try it...
Ymos,
Magpie

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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:30:16 -0400
From: Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap...

>Great story!   So.....Let me get this straight...the pine pitch is the
>"turpintine", add some animal fat, in this case pork fat, heat, and you have
>a good, waterproof glue!
>I'll try it...

Sure, go ahead, but if you sink, blame Henry, not me. <G>

You are right about the turpentine. One of Webster's definitions is the
'gummy secretion of certain conifers'.

Bob

Bob Spencer <[e-mail]>
Louisville, KY
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html



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Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:40:34 -0600
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: What to do with the pretty thang?

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Maybe this one is to obvious and I should not bother, but there is =
usually a fair market for brands like T/C.  You could sell it as is to =
someone who would think you are an idiot for getting rid of a good =
shooting rifle just because it is too pretty.  Then go buy something =
that works better for you.  this idea works with horses.

WY

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Maybe this one is to obvious and I =
should not=20
bother, but there is usually a fair market for brands like T/C.  =
You could=20
sell it as is to someone who would think you are an idiot for getting =
rid of a=20
good shooting rifle just because it is too pretty.  Then go buy =
something=20
that works better for you.  this idea works with =
horses.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WY</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:57:08 -0600
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

Yellowstone Canoe Camp
On the Lewis & Clark Trail
Park City, Montana

I've been flying in and out of Billings all last month, and have been
meaning
to track you down.... I think you mentioned something about working at the
museum there (by the airport?). I'm camping in Helena every Thursday
afternoon if you get over that way. You have a computer in yer lodge?
Ymos, Magpie

Hi Magpie,
It seems I have been volunteering a lot of time at the County museum at the
airport in Billings over the last couple of years.  Some good ML stuff to be
seen there.  The director knows me well enough to reach me but you could
call 406.633.2497.  We could make arrangements and show you around some.  I
am due to go to Helena soon but only the Lord knows when maybe September.
With the VA and all who knows.  Give me a call the next time you are headed
for Billings.  I prefer to call it my electric smoke signal.

The way I use pine pitch is to mix equal parts of resin, charcoal and
beeswax.  Low heat on the resin.  When melted add some of the charcoal and
some beeswax while stirring with a stick.  Keep adding.  Use a stick to pick
up the mastic material.  When you need it apply heat from a candle until it
bubbles then.  Touch what you are trying to stick together similar to the
way you use a hot melt glue stick.  We use bull pine or limber pine from
around here.  A little goes a long ways.
Walt
Park City, Montana



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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:39:53 -0600
From: "Ron Chamberlain" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Longtrail (Off Topic)

Hi all,
Please excuse this intrusion to the list. I lost Longtrails (aka Vicki
Dinsmore)email. If anyone on the list has it please send to me offlist or
have her contact me please. It is regarding some articles of hers  on my
webpage.

Thanks,

Ron
<(⌐┐⌐)>

[e-mail]


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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:35:35 -0400
From: "Dennis Miles" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Site update

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I put a couple of new folders on the site, if anyone is interested.=20
Thanks
D

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1

 "Knowing how is just the beginning"


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<HTML><HEAD>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I put a couple of new folders on the site, if anyone =
is=20
interested. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks</DIV>
<DIV>D</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
e"<BR>         DOUBLE EDGE=20
FORGE<BR>    <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> "Knowing how is just the=20
beginning"<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 16:10:06 -0500
From: "jdearing" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap...

At 07:53 PM 7/30/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Lately, I've seen some of the cherry trees secreting an amber colored sap,
>... ...what can I dissolve the sap in, to make up a glue?
>
>
I believe that you can treat the cherry "pitch" as you would pine pitch,
though
I have no personal experience with cherry pitch.
J.D.


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