ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n578

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Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #578
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hist_text-digest         Friday, June 23 2000         Volume 01 : Number 578



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items
-áááááá MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:24:13 -0500
-áááááá MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá MtMan-List: more on patch knife
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Warm weather cloths/kids cloths
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: more on patch knife
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1980 06:26:41 -0600
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items

manbear <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >What are:
> >1 dz knee straps?
>Could be like the straps or short sashes that voyageurs used around their
>knees to keep from blowing them out when carrying heavy bundles.

I hadn't heard about this! Can you tell us more?

BTW, the Glauber's salts were very likely meant for medicinal use (as a
purgative, IIRC); I've found them mentioned in that way in several Canadian
fur trade journals. The Canadian fur traders used peppermint for 'colic'
(stomach pain); haven't seen it used for toothache. Oil of cloves is more
usual for that, isn't it?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:38:34 -0700
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Unknown Items

Angela,
My humble apologies.  You are totally correct.  It's oil of
cloves...not...peppermint for toothaches.
John Funk


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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:25:14 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:24:13 -0500

I realize that this ain't exactly the rocky mountains, but Palo Duro =
Canyon in the Texas panhandle is plenty easy to look at.  Check it out =
at:
http://www.palodurocanyon.com/thumb/tour.html

Lanney Ratcliff



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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:05:14 -0500
From: Matt Porter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Patch knives

To all,
    I want to know if any of you folks have some suggestions for authentic
patch knives.  I'm having a custom .45 cal poor boy made and I want to
cut my patches while I load.  I heard it is more accurate.  Thanks for
any help.

YMHS
Matt Porter
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:47:27 -0700
From: "Larry Huber" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575

Everyone seems to havr their favorite place to acquire ready-made
clothing...especially for kids who grow out of their outfits every
rendezvous.  I've had excellent results from Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc.
Their whole line is on the web at www.jastown.com

Larry Huber

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Karl Kroll <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 11:28 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #575


> What is the easiest low cost way to get suitable warm weather clothing
(not
> leather) for a rendezvous.  Are there any brands of modern clothes that
can
> be easily modified so they look period correct?  If needed I can get
clothes
> sewn for me if I have a pattern.  (Where does a guy buy patterns?)
> The clothes would have to look authentic enough so I would not detract
from
> the event.  I also need clothes for my 11 year old daughter.
>
> Thank you
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:41:48 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

Dennis Miles can make you a fine knife to accompany your new smoke pole.

He works in period styles, techniques, materials, etc, ad nauseam.

During the period I've never encountered the term "patch" knife.  Pen
knife, crook knife, butcher knife, fleshing knife, etc., no patch knife.

More accurate than what?  I think you were being shined on.

John...



At 04:05 PM 6/22/00 -0500, you wrote:
>To all,
>         I want to know if any of you folks have some suggestions for
> authentic
>patch knives.  I'm having a custom .45 cal poor boy made and I want to
>cut my patches while I load.  I heard it is more accurate.  Thanks for
>any help.
>
>YMHS
>Matt Porter


"Never ascribe to malice that which is
adequately explained by incompetence."
                            Napoleon Bonaparte.


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:07:09 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

> More accurate than what?  I think you were being shined on.
>
> John...

Matt,

John is right about there being no evidence of special patch knives carried
to cut patches. The more authentic way is to just use the regular knife you
carry.

But I believe, John, that Matt was refering to the cutting of patches at the
muzzle as being the more accurate in terms of "shooting accuracy".

Matt,

Many use precut patches with acceptable or satisfactory results. Others feel
the need to cut the patch at the muzzle. It probably does provide a bit more
accuracy but is not very handy in the woods. I find that precut patches
hauled out of the pouch when reloading or already wrapped around a ball in a
loading block (which is hard to document too <G>) works just fine for
hunting accuracy and for trail walks shooting at gongs and such. Your
choice, Matt. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:38:44 -0500
From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives

Cap'n, do you use a patch cutter, or just cut the material into small =
squares or such like?   I've cut my ticking in to strips and greased up =
a mess, and stuck it in a tin, and I use that when I feel like cutting =
at the barrel, but I've often wondered about cutting small squares, and =
using those.   I've also got the pre-lubed kind as well, and they work =
well enough when I'm on the range pooping around, but there are times =
when I prefer to be as traditional as I can. =20

Todd (who got new toy at Friendship this year)   BIG ol' silly grin on =
his face.
=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Roger Lahti
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:07 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Kramer" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 3:41 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
> > More accurate than what?  I think you were being shined on.
> >
> > John...
>=20
> Matt,
>=20
> John is right about there being no evidence of special patch=20
> knives carried
> to cut patches. The more authentic way is to just use the regular=20
> knife you
> carry.
>=20
> But I believe, John, that Matt was refering to the cutting of=20
> patches at the
> muzzle as being the more accurate in terms of "shooting accuracy".
>=20
> Matt,
>=20
> Many use precut patches with acceptable or satisfactory results.=20
> Others feel
> the need to cut the patch at the muzzle. It probably does provide=20
> a bit more
> accuracy but is not very handy in the woods. I find that precut =
patches
> hauled out of the pouch when reloading or already wrapped around=20
> a ball in a
> loading block (which is hard to document too <G>) works just fine for
> hunting accuracy and for trail walks shooting at gongs and such. Your
> choice, Matt. I remain.....
>=20
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:51:58 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: more on patch knife

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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In Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" =
there is a picture on page 208 of a knife that Russell stops just short =
of calling a patch knife.  He wrote:

"Fred Cline of Arcanum, Ohio, was a firearms expert who specialized in =
flintlocks.  The sketch in figure 52g, represents a rifleman's knife =
from a pouch that accompanied a flintlock rifle in the Cline Collection. =
 Mr. Cline made the sketch, and it is used here through the kindness of =
Mr. John Barsotti.  The knife is entirely handmade.  The blade is forged =
from a rasp, and the polished hickory hilt features a block-tin or =
"white-metal" inlay very neatly made.  The inlay technique is the same =
as that often employed in molding block tin in grooves cut in catlinite =
pipe bowls.  A polished steel bolster separates the handle from the =
blade, and a "bullet starter" appears in the butt.  Usually, the =
mountain man who carried a muzzleloading rifle also carried a knife of =
this kind in a sheath attached to the strap that supported his =
rifleman's pouch. A sharp knife was quite essential in cutting patches =
and in shearing the surplus of the patch material after the patched =
bullet was forced into the muzzle."=20

Judging from the scale that accompanied the knife (along with others) =
the knife was about 8 inches long.  It looks sturdy enough to skin a =
rhino.  Any comments?

Lanney Ratcliff

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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:55:40 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

> they work well enough when I'm on the range pooping around, but there are
> times when I prefer to be as traditional as I can.

Perhaps you should try some Lomotil as a patch lube.  Then you won't waste
all that ticking wiping your bore at the range.  <G>


TOF

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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:08:08 -0500
From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives

=3D)  Doctor gave me some of that once, after a bout of the Creeping =
Crud, didn't have to worry about pooping around for a week!  Thank you =
no!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of
> [e-mail]
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:56 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
>=20
> > they work well enough when I'm on the range pooping around, but=20
> there are=20
> > times when I prefer to be as traditional as I can. =20
>=20
> Perhaps you should try some Lomotil as a patch lube.  Then you=20
> won't waste=20
> all that ticking wiping your bore at the range.  <G>
>=20
>=20
> TOF
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:09:38 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives


Cap'n, do you use a patch cutter, or just cut the material into small
squares or such like?

Todd,

I made a patch cutter out of a hole saw blade. Sharpened a cutting edge on
it while it turned in my drill press. I can only cut one at a time but then
I'm retired so don't have anything else pressing to do. <G> I recall trying
square cut precut patches and found them not as easy to use as round for
some reason.  They may have caught on the jag end of the rod and wanting to
pull back up the barrel. Round seemed to work better. I also carry a roll of
patching already greased in my bag and can and have cut on the barrel. I do
think it gives more consitency and thus better accuracy but if your careful
to center your patch and not let it and the ball tip, I think precuts are
OK.

So what kind of new toy did you get? I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'







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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:27:15 -0400
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

> I want to know if any of you folks have some suggestions for authentic
> patch knives.
> YMHS
> Matt Porter

I doubt it is authentic, but I made one from an old straight razor blade and
crown antler peice. Works great. I have seen pix of old pocket knife blades
put in either bone or antler to use for a patch knife as well. I think it
was in one of the Buckskinning series books.  Soon as I get my books
unpacked, I'll look...

Ad Miller



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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:16:28 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

> I doubt it is authentic, but I made one from an old straight razor blade and
> crown antler peice. Works great. I have seen pix of old pocket knife blades
> put in either bone or antler to use for a patch knife as well. I think it
> was in one of the Buckskinning series books.  Soon as I get my books
> unpacked, I'll look...
>
> Ad Miller

It would not surprise me if more than a few straight razors got recycled as
patch knives during the era. I think you are on pretty safe ground recycling
one for patch cutting.


Kristopher K. Barrett

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:29:31 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Warm weather cloths/kids cloths

<< clothes for my 11 year old daughter. >> Girls only need a chemise which
you can get a pattern from Jas Townsend (wed site address listed previously),
moc's and a draw string skirt.  Now my wife sews the chemise and I do the
moc's for my 10 year old daughter but even I can make a draw string skirt.
Cut a rectangle of cloth about 1.5 time the waist measurement and 2" greater
then the measurement from floor to waist.  Sewn the 2 ends together to make a
cylinder then sew in a draw string pocket around the top to the waist.  You
then put in a draw string to tighten waist and hem the bottom.  Of course you
don't even have to hem if the fabric has a tight weave or if you use the
natural (salvage) edge of the fabric for the bottom edge.  To make warm
weather skirt pre shrink wool material and do the same.  And make chemise
from flannel.  I also recommend wooden shoes for little feet on cold wet days
of mornings.  You can buy them new or you can get them for under $10 at flea
markets and yard sales.  If you can keep a kid warm they will stay happy and
want to be with you.  For little girls we also get a piece of wool fabric
that we shrink and cut to a lenght that works for their size as a shawl or
wrap.  You can blanket pin it if you want or add a button or clasp if you
want or just let them wrap themselves up in it.  All inexpensive and easy to
do.

Also get out early to walk the trade blankets at events.  All of us with kids
have last years stuff to give away or at least sell cheap.  But it goes fast
so don't sit on you butt or it will be gone.  And remember if you find
something that is a little too big it won't be in 6 months to a year so pick
it up if it is right for you persona.

Your humble servant and father of two growing kids

C.T. Oakes


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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:05:20 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

In a message dated 6/22/00 8:07:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<  They may have caught on the jag end of the rod and wanting to
 pull back up the barrel. >>

Try using a smaller jag or no jag at all on your rammer.  Had simular
problems & this fixed my problems.

NM

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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:58:22 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on patch knife

Lanney,

Close but no cigar.

It is a knife good enough a man wouldn't really need to own another.

The overall shape is reminiscent of what we now know as a "Sloyd" knife,=20
some shapes have always worked.  It could cut patches, skin critters,=20
butcher meat, whittle sticks, take scalps, build a fort, and a lot=20
more.  That most carried a knife on or in their pouch I reckon was pretty=20
common.  Just makes too much sense not to.  Grab one thing and you have all=
=20
you really need.

A knife like that shown would certainly be a good first if not only=20
choice.  I'd like to see the "bullet starter" part a lot closer.  My point=
=20
is a man had his knife or knives; "patch" knife I think is a modern=20
term/concept.

I like one that size and a couple smaller and a couple or three larger and=
=20
maybe a hanger.

It wouldn't be my last choice -- if I could only have one.

John...

P.S. Re: another post (same subject): Re-handling razors was far from=20
unknown in the past.  Smith's Key shows a huge variety of size, style and=20
shape of blade; more than I would have previously considered correct for=20
the period.  A really sharp straight edged blade is a darn handy tool for=20
all kinds of fine work.  Cutting leather, trimming hair, amputating ears,=20
lips, noses & limbs, the uses were/are endless.


At 09:51 PM 6/22/00 -0500, Lanney wrote:

>In Carl P. Russell's book "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men"=20
>there is a picture on page 208 of a knife that Russell stops just short of=
=20
>calling a patch knife.  He wrote:

John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
 >>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 03:50:31 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

Capt.,

As you well know I don't hold much truck with them what punches purty holes
in paper.  Paper is too dang expensive to waste that way.  What with it all
being hand-laid and what, parchment is dearer still.  Carbon black
(charcoal) and grease can highlight a spot on any light color background
for free.  (I have inserted several clever sayings at this point regarding
yellow streaks, politicians and lawyers that are probably better left
unsaid, so insert your favored or preferred target here)

Targets of opportunity at estimated ranges over varying terrain teaches
more of what a mountain man needs to know.

Cutting the patch at the muzzle ain't gonna make a lot of difference where
it matters.  Staying alive & well fed is what it is all about.

I whack off a piece of whatever I have and cram it all down the barrel.  It
ain't neat but it works, the part that forms around the ball (I do make
sure the patch seals equally all around, easy with a big hunk of patch) on
the powder side it will be tight to the bore - if the fit is.  The rest is
just minor trash on top.

Loading blocks or the even niftier nitrated paper cartridges are darn handy
on special occasions.  When you're out living in the woods everyday,
everything you can learn to do without -- improves the quality of
life.  Loading blocks don't hold well with daily long term use.

Sometimes I'll just cram a ball down a fouled bore and pound some greasy
scraps of buckskin down as wadding over the top.  If I'm in a real hurry I
may just ram a ball home with no patching or wadding.  If you worry about
perfecting one particular loading mantra you really limit the utility of
the tool.  I have put rocks, sticks, leaves, dirt, moss, grass, bark, road
apples, red wheat, corn, meadow muffins, salt, and lots of other stuff down
the bore of my musket.  I keep strips of greasy rags tied to my shooting bag.

Try hunting quail with hard red winter wheat in your musket, you never have
to pick shot or bite down on lead.  It's a little more sporting, lots
faster cleaning, and better eating.

Wouldn't it pay to learn to shoot a smoke-pole every way you can so
whatever the need you already know how?

Beware of the man who only owns one flinter, he just might know how to use it.

John...

Get a good knife that suits your hand or a dozen, figure out your own best
way.



At 05:07 PM 6/22/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Matt,
>
>Many use precut patches with acceptable or satisfactory results. Others feel
>the need to cut the patch at the muzzle. It probably does provide a bit more
>accuracy but is not very handy in the woods. I find that precut patches
>hauled out of the pouch when reloading or already wrapped around a ball in a
>loading block (which is hard to document too <G>) works just fine for
>hunting accuracy and for trail walks shooting at gongs and such. Your
>choice, Matt. I remain.....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'

____________________________________________________________
"The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of
each citizen to defend it.  Only if every single citizen feels duty bound
to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure."
                                -- Albert Einstein


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:48:48 -0600
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

Matt,
Ok, here is my two sent's worth, get what you like, John is right. I have
used a straight razor in the past but found that I like to carry less in my
bag. I have used my scalping blade for that and many other things, but now I
just use 15 thousands thick OX-Yoke pre cut without any lube. I started many
years using a water based cleaner (10-X) for a lubricant when I shoot
targets and have found that I can shoot up too 100 rounds without having to
swab the barrel. I shoot a .440 round ball and it works. I think that all
the modern crap thats on the market is only for those that can't take the
time to master the skill of shooting a Muzeloader.
YMOS
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: Matt Porter <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>Date: Thu, Jun 22, 2000, 3:05 PM
>

>To all,
> I want to know if any of you folks have some suggestions for authentic
>patch knives.  I'm having a custom .45 cal poor boy made and I want to
>cut my patches while I load.  I heard it is more accurate.  Thanks for
>any help.
>
>YMHS
>Matt Porter
>________________________________________________________________
>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
>Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:09:03 -0500
From: Todd <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives

.50 caliber, circa 1760 Pennsylvania style.   At least I think it's =
about that time period.   The butt is relatively wide, with a pronounced =
cheek piece.  42" swamped barrel, nice L&R lock.  Some nice carving on =
the stock, comb and butt, and well done patchbox, reasonable figure to =
the stock.   Not too much, but enough to give it some distinction.   =
Picked it up at Pecatonica, someone had turned it in as a trade.
   I was hitting in the black the first few shots, and ringing the gongs =
at the 51 and 56yd marks shortly after that.   Guns just about as long =
as I am, but feels nice, and shoots good too.  Now, if I can start =
shooting good, we'll be a match.  =3D)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Roger Lahti
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 10:10 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Todd" <[e-mail]>
> To: <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 7:38 PM
> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patch knives
>=20
>=20
> Cap'n, do you use a patch cutter, or just cut the material into small
> squares or such like?
>=20
> Todd,
>=20
> I made a patch cutter out of a hole saw blade. Sharpened a cutting =
edge on
> it while it turned in my drill press. I can only cut one at a=20
> time but then
> I'm retired so don't have anything else pressing to do. <G> I=20
> recall trying
> square cut precut patches and found them not as easy to use as round =
for
> some reason.  They may have caught on the jag end of the rod and=20
> wanting to
> pull back up the barrel. Round seemed to work better. I also=20
> carry a roll of
> patching already greased in my bag and can and have cut on the=20
> barrel. I do
> think it gives more consitency and thus better accuracy but if=20
> your careful
> to center your patch and not let it and the ball tip, I think precuts =
are
> OK.
>=20
> So what kind of new toy did you get? I remain....
>=20
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20


- ----------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:09:37 -0700
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kramer" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patch knives


> Capt.,
>
> As you well know I don't hold much truck with them what punches purty
holes
> in paper.  Paper is too dang expensive to waste that way.  What with it
all
> being hand-laid and what, parchment is dearer still.  Carbon black
> (charcoal) and grease can highlight a spot on any light color background
> for free.  (I have inserted several clever sayings at this point regarding
> yellow streaks, politicians and lawyers that are probably better left
> unsaid, so insert your favored or preferred target here)

John,

Don't punch much if any paper myself any more. Used to. Many still do. Many
haven't steped back as far as you. Still need advice on getting started.
Fine to couch everything in terms of what is "the Old Way" but some don't
care. First duty is to answer the mans question as honestly as possible.
Opinions are like A** ****'s, everyones got one and the wife has two. Just
offering my opinion like you. Your right, my right.

>
> Targets of opportunity at estimated ranges over varying terrain teaches
> more of what a mountain man needs to know.

For some, yes. For others no. Disrespectful of others for me to say
otherwise.

>
> Cutting the patch at the muzzle ain't gonna make a lot of difference where
> it matters.  Staying alive & well fed is what it is all about.

Bottom line for sure. If that isn't what a man's working on though then
maybe it is pertinent. You don't want to do it then don't. Makes me no mind.
Like I said, I have had just as good a' shooting by using precut patches.
Some times I just rip off a piece of fabric like you do. Others have other
ways that work for them.

>
> I whack off a piece of whatever I have and cram it all down the barrel.
It
> ain't neat but it works, the part that forms around the ball (I do make
> sure the patch seals equally all around, easy with a big hunk of patch) on
> the powder side it will be tight to the bore - if the fit is.  The rest is
> just minor trash on top.

Done as much myself. Picked up a bear robe one summer from some fellas up
near Thompson's Falls using grit and pine duff off the ground to take out
the target they wanted to shoot at. Spilt my shot on the ground so that's
what I used. Wadded with grass, etc. too. Some will try it some won't. Don't
do it all the time in the smooth bore but that is my choice. Ain't
appologizing for it. Ain't afraid to use what ever if needed. Use the best
combo I can when hunting if possible for no other reason than respect for
the game.

>
> Loading blocks or the even niftier nitrated paper cartridges are darn
handy
> on special occasions.  When you're out living in the woods everyday,
> everything you can learn to do without -- improves the quality of
> life.  Loading blocks don't hold well with daily long term use.

Can't find fault with learning to do without. Can't say I agree with the
idea that loading blocks don't hold well with daily long term use. Lots of
variables but two weeks chasing after elk, using one never caused any
problems. Your mileage may differ.

>
> Sometimes I'll just cram a ball down a fouled bore and pound some greasy
> scraps of buckskin down as wadding over the top.  If I'm in a real hurry I
> may just ram a ball home with no patching or wadding.  If you worry about
> perfecting one particular loading mantra you really limit the utility of
> the tool.  I have put rocks, sticks, leaves, dirt, moss, grass, bark, road
> apples, red wheat, corn, meadow muffins, salt, and lots of other stuff
down
> the bore of my musket.  I keep strips of greasy rags tied to my shooting
bag.

A man's got to do what he's got to do. Back in the settlements a fella has
time to worry about perfecting one particular loading mantra whether it
limit's the utility of the tool or not. Fun to try doing with whatever is at
hand but some don't care to do that and that is fine with me. I find it is a
big job just getting new folks to leave the commercial preparations and such
alone and just clean with water and lube with whatever grease is handy. It
don't help convince them by getting in their face about it so I try not to.

>
> Try hunting quail with hard red winter wheat in your musket, you never
have
> to pick shot or bite down on lead.  It's a little more sporting, lots
> faster cleaning, and better eating.

Now that is a good idea.

>
> Wouldn't it pay to learn to shoot a smoke-pole every way you can so
> whatever the need you already know how?

Got no argument with that. Try to practice it myself. Probably not as well
as you sound like you do but well enough.
.
>
> Beware of the man who only owns one flinter, he just might know how to use
it.

I been accused of that. The rifle shooters used to hate to see me coming
with my Charleville and not just because it had a hell of a big touch hole.

> Get a good knife that suits your hand or a dozen, figure out your own best
> way.

Got one. Does it all. Keep it around my neck so it's always with me. Don't
much agree with the idea that mounain men carried a half dozen or so. All I
ever seen in a Miller sketch was one on their belt. I do carry more than one
in a couple other places but then I think like a modern man no matter how
hard I try to covince myself I don't. They are small and just back-up but
that's my choice.

Good luck on your journey, friend. I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'




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