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hist_text-digest         Tuesday, May 9 2000         Volume 01 : Number 535



In this issue:

-áááááá MtMan-List: Saws or files
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Saws or files
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 12:05:47 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Saws or files

Ho the List,

Here's something I am just reading......

It is from a book called "Belden, The White Chief" by George P. Belden

    "The most curious process was making files and rasps. To do this, an
alder berry stick was taken and split in two. The pith was then scraped out,
and in the grove thus formed, was poured glue, mixed with pounded flint.
When dry, the particles of flint formed the teeth of the rasp, or file. If
the file became dull, it was only necessary to wash it in hot water, when
the glue and old pieces of flint washed out and new teeth appeared. These
files were very handy, and of vast use to the Indians. What steel is to
iron, they are to the wood and stone used by the Indian. When ponies hoofs
became too long, or splintered, they were trimmed down by these rasps; also,
ax handles, teepee poles, and iron, even, were rubbed down with them."

May be something worth playing with.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:20 AM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
> I have tried the linen thread - in various weights. The smaller stuff
> failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe repair shop worked well. The only
> problem I have had with it is that over time it does tend to rot,
> especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried animal gut.
> Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it would
> have too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather whang in
> blood, rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it dry somewhat
> and then using it as a sort of saw. Without further instructions I tried
> it. It worked - to a degree, but I had to keep making new "saws" because,
> at least the way I did it, they don't last long.
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Larry Huber < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>     To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]> < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>     Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM
>     Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>
>     If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless
> steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the
> way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff.  If your
> interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything artifical
> and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot.  Regular animal gut
> could be used for a saw bow winch.
>
>         ----- Original Message -----
>         From: Bill Cunningham <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM
>         Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>         I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a
> guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was
> sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was
> factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained
> was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it
> brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would
> you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be
> that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and
> splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your
> possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew
> which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine
> goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on
> it?
>         Bill C
>
>             -----Original Message-----
>             From: D Miles < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>             To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]> < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>             Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
>             Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>
>             Boy, I am on a roll now...
>              I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell
> FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high
> quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial
> sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...
>             D
>
>
>             "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>                       DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>               Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>                <http://www.bright.net/~deforge1>
>               "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:55:49 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saws or files

Looks like it would beat whang, blood and sand.
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 12:09 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Saws or files


Ho the List,

Here's something I am just reading......

It is from a book called "Belden, The White Chief" by George P. Belden

"The most curious process was making files and rasps. To do this, an
alder berry stick was taken and split in two. The pith was then scraped out,
and in the grove thus formed, was poured glue, mixed with pounded flint.
When dry, the particles of flint formed the teeth of the rasp, or file. If
the file became dull, it was only necessary to wash it in hot water, when
the glue and old pieces of flint washed out and new teeth appeared. These
files were very handy, and of vast use to the Indians. What steel is to
iron, they are to the wood and stone used by the Indian. When ponies hoofs
became too long, or splintered, they were trimmed down by these rasps; also,
ax handles, teepee poles, and iron, even, were rubbed down with them."

May be something worth playing with.

Lou Sickler
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:20 AM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
> I have tried the linen thread - in various weights. The smaller stuff
> failed, but some stuff I got from a shoe repair shop worked well. The only
> problem I have had with it is that over time it does tend to rot,
> especially if used to patch a moccasin. I have never tried animal gut.
> Great suggestion and one I will follow up on. I shouldn't imagine it would
> have too much stretch. I once read of someone soaking a leather whang in
> blood, rolling it in the sand to catch particles, letting it dry somewhat
> and then using it as a sort of saw. Without further instructions I tried
> it. It worked - to a degree, but I had to keep making new "saws" because,
> at least the way I did it, they don't last long.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Huber < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]> < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:31 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>
> If survival is your only goal, rip-stop nylon, gor-tex, stainless
> steel , down sleeping bags and high-impact light-weight plastic are the
> way to go.  Most Mountain supply stores carry this stuff.  If your
> interest lies elsewhere, linen thread packs as well as anything artifical
> and sinew is free, it comes off the animal you shot.  Regular animal gut
> could be used for a saw bow winch.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Cunningham <mailto:[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:50 AM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
> I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a
> guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was
> sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was
> factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained
> was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it
> brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would
> you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be
> that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and
> splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your
> possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew
> which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine
> goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on
> it?
> Bill C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: D Miles < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> To: [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]> < [e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>
>
> Boy, I am on a roll now...
> I also see way to many sutlers out there that sell
> FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All high
> quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list "artificial
> sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...
> D
>
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>           DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>   Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    <http://www.bright.net/~deforge1>
>   "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>
>

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:57:49 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFB9C6.F16ED920
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    charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well said - nothing I can add to that.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:56 AM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
        Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is =
tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, =
or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely =
long? Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your =
life (or in some cases, your budget) depended on it?
        Bill C
       =20
        Bill,
       =20
        Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on it, =
there may be no historical substitute for modern technology. I think the =
point is also well made that the goal is to do well with less and do it =
the old way. I'm not going to set here and tell anyone that I don't have =
some artificial sinew and that all my gear is 100% authentic, nor do I =
have it pared down to the bare minimum. What I carry for maintenence of =
my comfort  level that is not strictly correct is just where I am at in =
making the transition from a modern person to a more natural man.=20
       =20
        But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my commrads, =
modern usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of =
herbs and etc.'s but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". Perhpas =
I know of herbs that will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and if I =
find them I might think to use them but I also carry bandaid's and =
modern analgesics in case I don't. I know how to collect sinew and how =
to use it, along with carrying it, but I also carry some more modern =
fibers/threads in case the emergency is just too great, (as you pointed =
out).=20
       =20
        I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back and =
wouldn't even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot (rounded =
with three long legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not someing =
anyone in their right mind would want to carry on their back. I doubt I =
would subject a horse to such extra weight. I have straight sided "dutch =
ovens" that I have used in the past at National Drive and Dump =
Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply because it probably was not even =
close to representative of the kinds of "dutch ovens" used in big camps =
or forts in the Rockies. There are many other items that I have =
accumulated over the years that sure make life more cofortable at Drive =
and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let me, we leave them at home now. =
<G>=20
       =20
        It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel they =
need to do or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me for =
my choices but I am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to =
suggest that the short cuts I take are ok without some reasonable =
explanation as to why I take them. And it is our place to advocate that =
we all try our hardest to do it right and where possible show each other =
and the new person the right way. So you and I may very well continue to =
carry a few feet of "artificial sinew" just for emergencies but we will =
work towards learning how to harvest and use the real thing because that =
is the game we are playing. I remain....
       =20
        YMOS
        Capt. Lahti'
       =20
        Aux Aliments de Pays!

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFB9C6.F16ED920
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
Transitional//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Well said - nothing I can add to=20
that.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Roger Lahti <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:56 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: =
MtMan-List:=20
    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Since sinew is typically =
12" long=20
        or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 =
feet or=20
        so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of=20
        artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical =
authenticity is=20
        great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, =
your=20
        budget) depended on it?</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Bill =
C</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>Bill,</DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>Your point is well taken, in that when your life depends on =
it,=20
        there may be no historical substitute for modern technology. I =
think the=20
        point is also well made that the goal is to do well with less =
and do it=20
        the old way. I'm not going to set here and tell anyone that I =
don't have=20
        some artificial sinew and that all my gear is 100% authentic, =
nor do I=20
        have it pared down to the bare minimum. What I carry for =
maintenence of=20
        my comfort  level that is not strictly correct is just =
where I am=20
        at in making the transition from a modern person to a more =
natural man.=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>But when it comes to my safety or the safety of my =
commrads, modern=20
        usually wins out. I guess I could carry a medicine bundle of =
herbs and=20
        etc.'s but I choose to carry a modern first aid "kit". =
Perhpas=20
        I know of herbs that will stem bleeding or ease a head ache and =
if I=20
        find them I might think to use them but I also carry bandaid's =
and=20
        modern analgesics in case I don't. I know how to collect sinew =
and how=20
        to use it, along with carrying it, but I also carry some more =
modern=20
        fibers/threads in case the emergency is just too great, (as you =
pointed=20
        out). </DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>I don't carry a brazier in the canoe much less on my back =
and=20
        wouldn't even if they existed. I also have a new cast iron pot =
(rounded=20
        with three long legs) that I may carry by boat but it is not =
someing=20
        anyone in their right mind would want to carry on their back. I =
doubt I=20
        would subject a horse to such extra weight. I have straight =
sided=20
        "dutch ovens" that I have used in the past at National =
Drive=20
        and Dump Rendezvous but I quit taking it simply because it =
probably was=20
        not even close to representative of the kinds of "dutch =
ovens"=20
        used in big camps or forts in the Rockies. There are many other =
items=20
        that I have accumulated over the years that sure make life more=20
        cofortable at Drive and Dumps but insofar as my wife will let =
me, we=20
        leave them at home now. <G> </DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>It isn't my place to criticize anyone for what they feel =
they need=20
        to do or use anymore than it is anyone's place to criticize me =
for my=20
        choices but I am only fooling myself if I am so ingenuous as to =
suggest=20
        that the short cuts I take are ok without some reasonable =
explanation as=20
        to why I take them. And it is our place to advocate that we all =
try our=20
        hardest to do it right and where possible show each other and =
the new=20
        person the right way. So you and I may very well continue =
to carry=20
        a few feet of "artificial sinew" just for emergencies =
but we=20
        will work towards learning how to harvest and use the real thing =
because=20
        that is the game we are playing. I remain....</DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>YMOS</DIV>
        <DIV>Capt. Lahti'</DIV>
        <DIV> </DIV>
        <DIV>Aux Aliments de =
Pays!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFB9C6.F16ED920--


- ----------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 10:41:40 -0600
From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)

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Bill,
    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical
sinew. I just feel
that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for
building a shelter, making
a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are sinew,
rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and
seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear.
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have
authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?
Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have
choosen sides in
the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and
your equipment the
best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive,
maybe even be
comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. But
if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: a
horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new
pair.
Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the
recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows.
And different guys like different things
at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer out
and make people
think????

mike.
people.
Bill Cunningham wrote:

> I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy
> brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was
> sure he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was
> factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he
> explained was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just
> wither. But it brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival
> situations, would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of
> whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically
> 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry
> 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small
> coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical
> authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in
> some cases, your budget) depended on it?Bill C
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: D Miles <[e-mail]>
>      To: [e-mail]
>      <[e-mail]>
>      Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM
>      Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
>       Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers
>      out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in
>      various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason,
>      allot of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade
>      lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math
>      e"
>                DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>        Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>         http://www.bright.net/~deforge1
>        "Knowing how is just the beginning"
>

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<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Bill,
<br>    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify
carrying artifical sinew. I just feel
<br>that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for
building a shelter, making
<br>a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are
sinew, rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these
and seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear.
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and
have authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?
<br>Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have
choosen sides in
<br>the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you
and your equipment the
<br>best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive,
maybe even be
<br>comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them.
But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen:
a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair.
<br>Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like
the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows.
And different guys like different things
<br>at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer
out and make people
<br>think????
<br>
mike.
<br>people.
<br>Bill Cunningham wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font color="#000000"><font size=-1>I
was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy brought
in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure he had
a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was factory tanned
leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech
modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it brought to mind
a couple of questions. In true survival situations, would you be able to
obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it might be that you'd need
it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky
at best, would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or rather,
perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely long? Historical
authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if your life (or in some
cases, your budget) depended on it?</font></font><font size=-1>Bill C</font>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>-----Original
Message-----</font></font></b>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>From: </b>D Miles <<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>
<<a href="mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</a>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 09, 2000
7:32 AM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>Subject: </b>MtMan-List: Artificial
Sinew (was saws)</font></font>
<br> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Boy, I am on a roll now...</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1> I
also see way to many sutlers out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented
items in various forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot
of them also list "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>D</font></font>  <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>"Abair
ach beagan is abair gu math e"</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>   <a href="http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1</a></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>  "Knowing how is just the beginning"</font></font></blockquote>
</blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:27:12 -0600
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Absolutely! I used to practice going out with just a flinter or a bow =
and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool blanket and the clothes on my =
back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible to get along with =
the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that aren't - =
such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a =
couple of these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent =
I could also use as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is =
creeping up on me and I have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I =
carry a first aid kit and often ride a horse.
But speaking of recurves, weren't they around long before the fur =
period? Seems to me I saw one in the museum at Betatakin. I know they =
existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me that some of the south western =
Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't extreme like the horse bows =
of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow recurve.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Mike Moore <[e-mail]>
    To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
    Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM
    Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)
   =20
   =20
    Bill,=20
        I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying =
artifical sinew. I just feel=20
    that under regular "survival" situations all I would have to use for =
building a shelter, making=20
    a tripod or any putting together any  number of  things are sinew, =
rawhide, cordage (of various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and =
seeing what works and what doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us =
when called upon to have to use it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. =
And to me, alot of these items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are =
well made, durable items that can be the best you can buy (wheather it =
is a kind of Moc, or what is best for sewing stuff up with), but to me =
(and this is only  my opinion) why not tie both worlds together and have =
authenic equipement that is durable, comfortable and replaceable?=20
    Like alot of you guys, I am a A.M.M. member. and alot of people have =
choosen sides in=20
    the authenic/ survival debate. I just say why not be both? Make you =
and your equipment the=20
    best they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to =
survive, maybe even be=20
    comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love them. =
But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can happen: =
a horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one of =
them fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals =
them) I would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new =
pair.=20
    Every man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like =
the recurve versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel =
bows. And different guys like different things=20
    at different times. But ,doesn't this make a good subject to hammer =
out and make people=20
    think????=20
                                                                         =
   mike.=20
    people.=20
    Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
        I was watching that antiques roadshow program one time and a guy =
brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It really looked nice and he was sure =
he had a pot of money. But the antique guy showed him that it was =
factory tanned leather, sewed with artificial sinew, which he explained =
was a hi-tech modern product. You could see the guy just wither. But it =
brought to mind a couple of questions. In true survival situations, =
would you be able to obtain enough sinew to take care of whatever it =
might be that you'd need it for? Since sinew is typically 12" long or =
less, and splicing it is tricky at best, would you carry 15 feet or so =
in your possibles pouch, or rather, perhaps, a small coil of artificial =
sinew which is infinitely long? Historical authenticity is great and a =
fine goal, but what if your life (or in some cases, your budget) =
depended on it?Bill C=20
            -----Original Message-----=20
            From: D Miles <[e-mail]>=20
            To: [e-mail] =
<[e-mail]>=20
            Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:32 AM=20
            Subject: MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was saws)=20
             Boy, I am on a roll now... I also see way to many sutlers =
out there that sell FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various =
forms.All high quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list =
"artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO figger...D  "Abair ach =
beagan is abair gu math e"=20
                      DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20
              Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements=20
               http://www.bright.net/~deforge1=20
              "Knowing how is just the beginning"

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    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 =
transitional//en">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Absolutely! I used to practice going =
out with=20
just a flinter or a bow and arrows, my knife, fire makings, a wool =
blanket and=20
the clothes on my back. In a few days you learn that it is very possible =
to get=20
along with the bare necessities. You also learn to appreciate some that =
aren't -=20
such as a good waterproof tarp, a pot and a frying pan. It was on a =
couple of=20
these trips that I even came up with the idea of a small tent I could =
also use=20
as a pack. Made it and carried it for years. Now age is creeping up on =
me and I=20
have had to learn to be a bit more cautious. I carry a first aid kit and =
often=20
ride a horse.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>But speaking =
of recurves,=20
weren't they around long before the fur period? Seems to me I saw one in =
the=20
museum at Betatakin. I know they existed in Eurasia, but it seems to me =
that=20
some of the south western Indians had them also. The one I saw wasn't =
extreme=20
like the horse bows of the Steppes, but was definitely a self-bow=20
recurve.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Mike Moore <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
    </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
    <<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:43 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: MtMan-List: =

    Artificial Sinew (was saws)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>Bill, =
<BR>   =20
    I, like Roger, see how we could (and can) justify carrying artifical =
sinew.=20
    I just feel <BR>that under regular "survival" situations =
all I=20
    would have to use for building a shelter, making <BR>a tripod or any =
putting=20
    together any  number of  things are sinew, rawhide, =
cordage (of=20
    various kinds) or leather. So by trying these and seeing what works =
and what=20
    doesn't, wouldn't that be the best for us when called upon to have =
to use=20
    it? I hear alot about "survival" gear. And to me, alot of =
these=20
    items just don't fit in the catagory. Most are well made, durable =
items that=20
    can be the best you can buy (wheather it is a kind of Moc, or what =
is best=20
    for sewing stuff up with), but to me (and this is only  my =
opinion) why=20
    not tie both worlds together and have authenic equipement that is =
durable,=20
    comfortable and replaceable? <BR>Like alot of you guys, I am a =
A.M.M.=20
    member. and alot of people have choosen sides in <BR>the authenic/ =
survival=20
    debate. I just say why not be both? Make you and your equipment the =
<BR>best=20
    they can be. And know how to do the things necessary to survive, =
maybe even=20
    be <BR>comfortable. I have friends who have Dyer mocs and they love =
them.=20
    But if I ever had to replace them while in the mountains (it can =
happen: a=20
    horse or mule scatters everything for a mile or too, you loose one =
of them=20
    fording a river or maybe a hungry coyote comes in camp and steals =
them) I=20
    would have to use leather and sinew (or wangs) to make a new pair. =
<BR>Every=20
    man has their own opinion on this subject- it is kind of like the =
recurve=20
    versus stick bow, we won't mention the new fangled wheel bows. And =
different=20
    guys like different things <BR>at different times. But ,doesn't this =
make a=20
    good subject to hammer out and make people <BR>think????=20
    =
<BR>           &nb=
sp;           &nbs=
p;            =
;            =
            &=
nbsp;          =20
    mike. <BR>people. <BR>Bill Cunningham wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D CITE>
        <STYLE></STYLE>
        <FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>I was watching that =
antiques roadshow=20
        program one time and a guy brought in an Indian arrow quiver. It =
really=20
        looked nice and he was sure he had a pot of money. But the =
antique guy=20
        showed him that it was factory tanned leather, sewed with =
artificial=20
        sinew, which he explained was a hi-tech modern product. You =
could see=20
        the guy just wither. But it brought to mind a couple of =
questions. In=20
        true survival situations, would you be able to obtain enough =
sinew to=20
        take care of whatever it might be that you'd need it for? Since =
sinew is=20
        typically 12" long or less, and splicing it is tricky at =
best,=20
        would you carry 15 feet or so in your possibles pouch, or =
rather,=20
        perhaps, a small coil of artificial sinew which is infinitely =
long?=20
        Historical authenticity is great and a fine goal, but what if =
your life=20
        (or in some cases, your budget) depended on =
it?</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
        size=3D-1>Bill C</FONT>=20
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B><FONT=20
            face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>-----Original=20
            Message-----</FONT></FONT></B> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1><B>From: </B>D Miles <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A>></FONT></F=
ONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>To: </B><A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
            <<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>></FONT></FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1><B>Date: </B>Tuesday, =
May 09,=20
            2000 7:32 AM</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1><B>Subject: </B>MtMan-List: Artificial Sinew (was=20
            saws)</FONT></FONT> <BR> <FONT face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D-1>Boy, I=20
            am on a roll now...</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1> I also see way to many sutlers out there =
that sell=20
            FANTASTIC authentic, documented items in various forms.All =
high=20
            quality.... But for some reason, allot of them also list=20
            "artificial sinew" on their trade lists.....GO=20
            figger...</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>D</FONT></FONT>  <FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
            size=3D-1>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20
            e"</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
            =
size=3D-1>         =20
            DOUBLE EDGE FORGE</FONT></FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =

            size=3D-1>  Period Knives & Iron =
Accoutrements</FONT></FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>   <A=20
            =
href=3D"http://www.bright.net/~deforge1">http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<=
/A></FONT></FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D-1>  "Knowing =
how is just=20
            the=20
beginning"</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BOD=
Y></HTML>

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