ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n485

Internet Message Format | 2000-03-02 | 40KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #485
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest        Thursday, March 2 2000        Volume 01 : Number 485



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: shelters
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both flour, and blue willowware.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mountain Rifles
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: John Kramer thank you
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: roots
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: camp fare
-áááááá MtMan-List: eyeglasses
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
-áááááá MtMan-List: Fwd: in need of fur prices, kids school  project
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: TEST
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Blue willow ware

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:57:34 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness

Bearclaw,

I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I am not sure where you are coming
from with these statements. But if you mean to imply what you sound like you
are implying, I think it is you who may be missing the point.

The point is that this is a list devoted to discussions of historical fact
and the pursuit of historical accuracy. I have not heard anyone say that eye
wear of any kind should not be allowed, that medications should not be
allowed, that wives and children should not be allowed. Nor have I seen
anyone say that only smoothbores should be present or only rifle guns should
be present. What I have seen are honest attempts to identify what items are
historically appropriate and where possible what items of present use are
not historically accurate and in what way they are not accurate.

In the context of the American Mountain Men (the organization) it is
important what is used and etc. at that organizations functions. That group
proudly sets it's self a higher standard. While encouraging others to step
up to that standard,it does not condemn the other gatherings where a looser
standard is accepted. Nor does it condemn the attendee's of other gatherings
for the corners they cut but rather tries to educate and set an example.

There are folks inside and outside of  groups like the AMM that one can
freely characterize as "clothing police" or "authenticity Gestapo" but I
would hope that none appear here. For my part as a member of AMM, I am still
learning about what was done and what wasn't done back in the days of the
Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper. I personally do my best to recreate that era to the
best of my understanding. I will share that understanding and politely
debate the here for's and where as's with anyone that seems interested. I
would hope that I don't get in anyone's face about what they do that I see
as "not historically correct". If I do, I apologize. I also believe that
such discussions as we have here and such discussions we may have in camps
wherever, benefit  all who care to partake and/or listen. I strongly object
to anyone including myself being dishonest enough to represent their "modern
short cuts" as authentic.

Be honest enough to freely admit that the things we do and the things we use
that are not authenticated are just what they are,expedients to our comfort
and choices we make or have to make in the light of our modern upbringing or
medical needs, or our unwillingness to eat what was eaten, camp as they did,
etc. So if you pack a knock down wooden bed to the Nationals for the comfort
of your wife and your tired old back as I do, be honest enough to tell
yourself and others you may influence that such is not particularly
authentic but in this venue your gona do it anyway. If your gona wear
clothing that you know is not really appropriate or authentic to the
Mountain Man era (or whatever era) then be honest enough to admit that it
ain't, you only wear it cause you like it or you think it is stylish and
what every tourist thinks is how the original MT.man dressed.

That being said, I agree with you whole heartedly that,"However, in my
humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> welcome." In total agreement, I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


To: "MM" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:02 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: period correctness


>     Those who write that such and such probably was not present at
pre-1840
> Rvou's and, therefore, should not be at present day gatherings are often
> missing the point, at least as I see it.
>     I believe that we, as present day imitators of the lifestyle, are
> (usually) doing our best to preserve the best of that era of American
> history.
>     If we were to exclude those who need and wear eyeglasses our numbers
> would drop dramatically and probably be limited to those under 30 years of
> age.  My belief is that there were far more smooth bores in use by
mountain
> trappers than current lore would lead us to believe. After all, there were
> no handy optometrist shops every half mile along the trails. Rifles would
> have been almost impossible for many to use.
>     To be more 'authentic' we should probably exclude white women and
> children from our gatherings.  Of course, that would guarantee that
> appreciation for our history would be denied future generations also.
>     How many take necessary medication daily while at r'vouz?  To be
> authentic one should leave all modern medicines at home. After all,
disease
> and early death were 'authentic' back then.  As was infection, gangrene
and
> so on.
>     Most of us do our best to preserve the period and respectful debate
> about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
>     However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> welcome.
> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:01:32 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shelters

Joe,

We have found that square cuts seem to work best for this style shelter. For
youngsters you may be able to go as small as 8' by 8' (maybe even 7X7) but
for myself and another adult, 9' by 9' or 10' by 10' seems to provide more
coverage and head room. I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 09:18:33 -0800
From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both flour, and blue willowware.

Lee,

In "Astoria", by Washington Irving, in Chapter XVI it is mentioned that the
overland party quit down on their luck had 40 lb. of "Indian corn".  In a
later passage of that same chapter, they were reported to be eating "parched
corn". So corn as a whole grain was fairly common when it could be traded
from the locals or grown at a post or trading fort.

As to the question of "corn meal", it is probably safe to say that shelled
corn is easier to carry than ground corn meal. It can be parched and eaten
thus or parched and ground into a finer product. It is possible that Indians
using stone grinding tools ( I forget the names of base stone and grinding
stone) produced corn meal from dry corn seed. On the trail, the
trapper/traveler would have had better luck using corn after parching, which
makes it edible and easy to further process. No answer to the question of
"corn meal" yea or ney but leaves the door open. I remain...

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Newbill" <[e-mail]>
To: "Dean Rudy's "hist_list"" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 5:10 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: documentation for both flour, and blue
willowware.


>
>
> On Thu, 2 Mar 2000, Lee Newbill wrote:
> > Did I not read that Henry the Younger gave his men heading into the
> > interior each a small bag of cornmeal?
>
> I stand corrected....
>
> May 1st, 1814...provisions for twelve days... beef,
> pork, flour, corn, peas, rum, etc.
>
> No corn meal.
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:20:53 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions

Hallo the camp!!
A few of my favorite mountain men are:
1. John Colter, the first American Mountain Man
2. Uncle Dick Wooten
3. Jacob Berger
4. John Gardner

One of the items I do not think would be seen among the American Mountain
Men is the expensive HBC blankets here in south central Montana or north
central Wyoming.

I do not use expensive flour in the manner of a "pancake party" VBG, but I
believe it happened.  Nor to I carry my flour loose.  I wet a few pints,
pounds, dollars of flour and shape it into easy to carry a few balls of the
hard flour.

Mountain men moved early in the day when on the move.  Stopping to noon
before the middle of the day.  If I am on foot or horse back.  It is a
simple move to set the pot add a little water throw in a handful of jerky to
soak while I pick up an armful of fire making stuff.  The shape of the pot
is designed to conserve fuel.  A little fire does not burn with much smoke.
I make the fire and bring things to a boil and then shave off an ounce or so
of the flour material directly into the pot.  The quickly made fire goes out
and as soon as the temperature of the meal becomes cool enough to eat.  That
is done and a hand full of water is all that it takes to clean the pot.
This gives the reader an idea of a plumb practical approach to one pot and
simple food  to go along with any fresh meat while on the move.

If the mountain men were in winter camp between trapping seasons as they
were I think bear sign from time to time would have been enough joy to have
lasted through the winter season which can be really tough here in Montana
at times.
Walt
Park City, Montana






- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:03:37 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Mountain Rifles

jerry strobel
you might contact don steith at [e-mail] he makes a very good
hawken and also a demick rifle that is taken from the originals that he
owns---don is a good friend of mine so tell him i told you to ask---he
aint cheep but he does do quality work---and is probably as cantankerous
as i am and is quite opiniated on hawken rifles---but we usually agree on
this---his phone number is 1-804-328-2962---if you want further info on
don smitty knows him and the type of work he does as don usto live in st
louis and we all usto shoot together---don usto be a perfectionest in his
gun work and I havent seen one of his hawkens for several years but they
usto be as close to right as they can be---one of the major manufactures
that sells kits uses don's pattern for their stock---wayne dunlap does
his cutting from the master---don also furnishes kits but in what state i
cannot tell you---I have seen pictures of his demick and it really looks
good---and it is totally period correct for the fur trade---a nice half
stock planes rifle.

    "HAWK"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.             (Home of "Old Grizz"  products)    (C)
Palm Harbor Florida     34684        Phone:    [phone]
e-mail:   [e-mail]  web
site:http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:59:58 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions

Hallo the camp!

One of the things I have not seen expressed is the state of the state of the
American Mountain Men who gathered here in the 5 month winter camp along the
Yellowstone from The Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone mouth up the Yellowstone
to around Park City, Montana.

During one winter in the late 70s while in Great Falls, Monana I spent the
winter reading the Prince of Weid book.  I read while at Fort Union he
observed both Jim Bridger and John Gardner at the fort.  He wrote that
Bridger's party was returning from Canada.  They did not find new fur
territory.  Gardner was there trading for winter supplies.  The book pointed
out that John Gardner received more than twice the amount for his beaver
than did the Bridger men.

This big winter camp that Osborn Russell wrote about was the last time many
of these trappers were in the area.

It was apparent from the book that the American Fur Company had won the
economic fur war with the Bridger group.

This camp was called the Rocky Mountain College.  Much time was devoted in
what to do.  Many who were here left and went to seek fortune in other
places.

Those associated with the AMF stayed and some like John Gardner continued to
make American Mountain Man tracks along the Yellowstone.

The evolution of the mountain man continued.

Walt
Park City, Montana




- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:06:41 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions

Hallo the camp!
I have some pictures of the area of the birthplace of the American Mountain
Men which would give someone who has no idea of what the country looks like
from place to place or season to season an opportunity to see what they
faced.  Be glad to share
Walt
Park City, Montana


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:20:58 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare

Hallo the camp"

I have a "test" question for your examination and possible reward.  I am
willing to put up a Mike King beaded neck bag as a prize for the first
person who can give me the best answer for the kind of roots eaten for 10
days while in the Orginial Rocky Mountain College winter camp located here
on the Yellowstone that caused the pot to need to be greased.

A single answer per person.
Answere must be received by 8 AM tomorrow to count
First correct answer receives the brain tan beaded neck bag.
Good Luck!

Question:  Name the roots eaten for the 10 day period.





- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:48:08 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Kramer thank you

Hallo the camp!, John Kramer.

I want to thank you for your warm personal off list post.  Thank you for
reminding me that we crossed trails at the first Red Lodge Mountain Man
Rendezvous.

I think it is important for greenhorns, lost pilgrams and other hardhorns to
know what a good service he is doing as a die hard for the AMM legacy and
way of life.

I am sure he has survived the heat of battle as well as I have and I would
welcome his 2bits being offered again.

With out mountain men like John Kramer the true inside and outside of the
scope and range of the American Mountain Men in general fade off or blur out
of our vision which is to keep the tradition alive in all the forms the
mountain men evolved to.

Thanks for your off post and even more thanks for keeping the elements
alive.
Come back on line John Kramer we need you and your knowledge base.
Sincerely,
Walt
Park City, Montana


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:49:44 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roots

Thanks Chance Tiffie,  your logged in.
Walt
Park City


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 11:57:34 -0800
From: Randal J Bublitz <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare

Camas root was cooked so much pot needed to be greased ------hardtack

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:20:58 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare

Hallo the camp"

I have a "test" question for your examination and possible reward.  I am
willing to put up a Mike King beaded neck bag as a prize for the first
person who can give me the best answer for the kind of roots eaten for 10
days while in the Orginial Rocky Mountain College winter camp located here
on the Yellowstone that caused the pot to need to be greased.

A single answer per person.
Answere must be received by 8 AM tomorrow to count
First correct answer receives the brain tan beaded neck bag.
Good Luck!

Question:  Name the roots eaten for the 10 day period.





- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:40:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare

Hmmmmm....how about Camas?

Ymos,
Steve

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 16:28:45 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: camp fare

Hello in the camp
  Walt it was thistle root.          Crazy Cyot

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:21:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Ronald Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: eyeglasses

Howdy the list!  Being prit nigh blind without my
spectacles, I know in my heart that I could probably
never have been a trapper, or mountain man, but since
the appropriatness of glasses being in the mountains
has been brought up [including carrying spares] was
brought up, does anyone know the cost of a pair of
spectacles during our period of interest?  Thanks, Dog
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 16:33:46 -0700
From: "Ole B. Jensen" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness

Roger,
Extremly well said. I agree with your accessment.
Ole # 718
- ----------
>From: "Roger Lahti" <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness
>Date: Thu, Mar 2, 2000, 10:57 AM
>

>Bearclaw,
>
>I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I am not sure where you are coming
>from with these statements. But if you mean to imply what you sound like you
>are implying, I think it is you who may be missing the point.
>
>The point is that this is a list devoted to discussions of historical fact
>and the pursuit of historical accuracy. I have not heard anyone say that eye
>wear of any kind should not be allowed, that medications should not be
>allowed, that wives and children should not be allowed. Nor have I seen
>anyone say that only smoothbores should be present or only rifle guns should
>be present. What I have seen are honest attempts to identify what items are
>historically appropriate and where possible what items of present use are
>not historically accurate and in what way they are not accurate.
>
>In the context of the American Mountain Men (the organization) it is
>important what is used and etc. at that organizations functions. That group
>proudly sets it's self a higher standard. While encouraging others to step
>up to that standard,it does not condemn the other gatherings where a looser
>standard is accepted. Nor does it condemn the attendee's of other gatherings
>for the corners they cut but rather tries to educate and set an example.
>
>There are folks inside and outside of  groups like the AMM that one can
>freely characterize as "clothing police" or "authenticity Gestapo" but I
>would hope that none appear here. For my part as a member of AMM, I am still
>learning about what was done and what wasn't done back in the days of the
>Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper. I personally do my best to recreate that era to the
>best of my understanding. I will share that understanding and politely
>debate the here for's and where as's with anyone that seems interested. I
>would hope that I don't get in anyone's face about what they do that I see
>as "not historically correct". If I do, I apologize. I also believe that
>such discussions as we have here and such discussions we may have in camps
>wherever, benefit  all who care to partake and/or listen. I strongly object
>to anyone including myself being dishonest enough to represent their "modern
>short cuts" as authentic.
>
>Be honest enough to freely admit that the things we do and the things we use
>that are not authenticated are just what they are,expedients to our comfort
>and choices we make or have to make in the light of our modern upbringing or
>medical needs, or our unwillingness to eat what was eaten, camp as they did,
>etc. So if you pack a knock down wooden bed to the Nationals for the comfort
>of your wife and your tired old back as I do, be honest enough to tell
>yourself and others you may influence that such is not particularly
>authentic but in this venue your gona do it anyway. If your gona wear
>clothing that you know is not really appropriate or authentic to the
>Mountain Man era (or whatever era) then be honest enough to admit that it
>ain't, you only wear it cause you like it or you think it is stylish and
>what every tourist thinks is how the original MT.man dressed.
>
>That being said, I agree with you whole heartedly that,"However, in my
>humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
>> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
>> welcome." In total agreement, I remain....
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>To: "MM" <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:02 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: period correctness
>
>
>>     Those who write that such and such probably was not present at
>pre-1840
>> Rvou's and, therefore, should not be at present day gatherings are often
>> missing the point, at least as I see it.
>>     I believe that we, as present day imitators of the lifestyle, are
>> (usually) doing our best to preserve the best of that era of American
>> history.
>>     If we were to exclude those who need and wear eyeglasses our numbers
>> would drop dramatically and probably be limited to those under 30 years of
>> age.  My belief is that there were far more smooth bores in use by
>mountain
>> trappers than current lore would lead us to believe. After all, there were
>> no handy optometrist shops every half mile along the trails. Rifles would
>> have been almost impossible for many to use.
>>     To be more 'authentic' we should probably exclude white women and
>> children from our gatherings.  Of course, that would guarantee that
>> appreciation for our history would be denied future generations also.
>>     How many take necessary medication daily while at r'vouz?  To be
>> authentic one should leave all modern medicines at home. After all,
>disease
>> and early death were 'authentic' back then.  As was infection, gangrene
>and
>> so on.
>>     Most of us do our best to preserve the period and respectful debate
>> about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
>>     However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
>> downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
>> welcome.
>> Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:21:36 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: in need of fur prices, kids school  project

- --part1_4c.25bef07.25f05f90_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



- --part1_4c.25bef07.25f05f90_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: [e-mail]
From: [e-mail]
Full-name: Traphand
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 20:52:57 EST
Subject: in need of fur prices, kids school  project
To: [e-mail]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 61

 Hello list,
             In need of help.   Wife signed me up at my kid's school for
living
History day (Missouri).   Need to know the prices for beaver and other furs
from 1800-1840 when sold at Western Rendezvous compared to prices
received in St. Louis.    Would like prices to compare between both places.

Thank you.

rick
[e-mail]

- --part1_4c.25bef07.25f05f90_boundary--

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: 02 Mar 2000 18:37:33 -0700
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions

Bill - Might be a good one for the T&LR.  Don

On Friday, April 21, 1939, [e-mail] wrote:
>In either 1986 or 1987, the museum of the fur trade quarterly had a
>definitive article on tobacco and cigarettes. You can get a reprint by
>contacting the museum. Just yesterday I ran across a letter I got from
>Charles Hanson giving me permission to reprint that very article. I don't
>think I ever did, but it was nice of him.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Poorboy <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 7:00 PM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Period correctness questions
>
>
>>As I explained in a previous post I have spent considerable time and am
>>still researching all of the archived material from this list, however I
>>have several questions that I have been unable to answer as of yet.  If =
I
>>have overlooked previously posted information on these topics please =
excuse
>>my clumsiness.
>>1.  A recent posting indicated that fur hats were probably not correct =
for
>>pre-1840 RMFT rendezvous.  And a respondent indicated that this had been =
a
>>topic of discussion before.  I have been unable to locate that discussion=
.
>>It has always been my understanding having been brought up by an AMM =
member
>>that beaver fur was money and would only be used for something else in =
an
>>emergency.  However, since we accept that the mountaineers adopted =
Indian
>>dress (whether of need or desire is another issue)  and Indians used the
>>natural furs available for head coverings, clothing, household utensils
>etc.
>>Isn't it a little difficult to make the statement that the Rocky =
Mountain
>>trappers and traders did not utilize fur head coverings.....
>>2.  Eye glasses were definitely available in the settlements, and =
although
>I
>>will accept they may not have been common in the mountains, it is a =
reach
>to
>>assume that no one wore a pair west, nor took a spare pair or two, and
>would
>>have been so clumsy as to have lost or destroyed all of them.  I will =
admit
>>that a person needing glasses who either could not get them, or having =
lost
>>possession of them would soon become victim to either enemies of animals
>due
>>to lack of accuracy in shooting or not seeing there enemies approach.  I
>>also believe that a person of only slight vision problems would attach
>>himself to a group so as to compensate for this inadequacy.
>>3.  As there is a large contingent within the ranks that support the
>>southwest influence within the RMFT I ask the following question.  It =
was
>>common practice to smoke cigarettes rolled in corn husks in the =
southwest.
>>Can anyone provide me with information concerning the preparation and =
use
>of
>>the husk material, ie.. how to keep it rolled up once you have =
successfully
>>rolled a cigarette.  size of cigarettes, and appropriateness to the RMFT
>>era.
>>Thank you in advance for you time and knowledge.  I could not read in a
>>lifetime enough books to compile the gathered and documented knowledge =
of
>>this lists members.
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------
>>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
>http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 2000 18:34:44 -0800
From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period correctness

You where very nice and did an excellent job on this one Capt., yee makes one proud to be your brother.

Buck Conner
AMM Baker Party Colorado Territory
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Thu, 02 March 2000, "Roger Lahti" wrote:
> Bearclaw,
>
> I'll be perfectly honest and admit that I am not sure where you are coming
> from with these statements. But if you mean to imply what you sound like you
> are implying, I think it is you who may be missing the point.
>
> The point is that this is a list devoted to discussions of historical fact
> and the pursuit of historical accuracy. I have not heard anyone say that eye
> wear of any kind should not be allowed, that medications should not be
> allowed, that wives and children should not be allowed. Nor have I seen
> anyone say that only smoothbores should be present or only rifle guns should
> be present. What I have seen are honest attempts to identify what items are
> historically appropriate and where possible what items of present use are
> not historically accurate and in what way they are not accurate.
>
> In the context of the American Mountain Men (the organization) it is
> important what is used and etc. at that organizations functions. That group
> proudly sets it's self a higher standard. While encouraging others to step
> up to that standard,it does not condemn the other gatherings where a looser
> standard is accepted. Nor does it condemn the attendee's of other gatherings
> for the corners they cut but rather tries to educate and set an example.
>
> There are folks inside and outside of  groups like the AMM that one can
> freely characterize as "clothing police" or "authenticity Gestapo" but I
> would hope that none appear here. For my part as a member of AMM, I am still
> learning about what was done and what wasn't done back in the days of the
> Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper. I personally do my best to recreate that era to the
> best of my understanding. I will share that understanding and politely
> debate the here for's and where as's with anyone that seems interested. I
> would hope that I don't get in anyone's face about what they do that I see
> as "not historically correct". If I do, I apologize. I also believe that
> such discussions as we have here and such discussions we may have in camps
> wherever, benefit  all who care to partake and/or listen. I strongly object
> to anyone including myself being dishonest enough to represent their "modern
> short cuts" as authentic.
>
> Be honest enough to freely admit that the things we do and the things we use
> that are not authenticated are just what they are,expedients to our comfort
> and choices we make or have to make in the light of our modern upbringing or
> medical needs, or our unwillingness to eat what was eaten, camp as they did,
> etc. So if you pack a knock down wooden bed to the Nationals for the comfort
> of your wife and your tired old back as I do, be honest enough to tell
> yourself and others you may influence that such is not particularly
> authentic but in this venue your gona do it anyway. If your gona wear
> clothing that you know is not really appropriate or authentic to the
> Mountain Man era (or whatever era) then be honest enough to admit that it
> ain't, you only wear it cause you like it or you think it is stylish and
> what every tourist thinks is how the original MT.man dressed.
>
> That being said, I agree with you whole heartedly that,"However, in my
> humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> > downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> > welcome." In total agreement, I remain....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
>
> To: "MM" <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:02 AM
> Subject: MtMan-List: period correctness
>
>
> >     Those who write that such and such probably was not present at
> pre-1840
> > Rvou's and, therefore, should not be at present day gatherings are often
> > missing the point, at least as I see it.
> >     I believe that we, as present day imitators of the lifestyle, are
> > (usually) doing our best to preserve the best of that era of American
> > history.
> >     If we were to exclude those who need and wear eyeglasses our numbers
> > would drop dramatically and probably be limited to those under 30 years of
> > age.  My belief is that there were far more smooth bores in use by
> mountain
> > trappers than current lore would lead us to believe. After all, there were
> > no handy optometrist shops every half mile along the trails. Rifles would
> > have been almost impossible for many to use.
> >     To be more 'authentic' we should probably exclude white women and
> > children from our gatherings.  Of course, that would guarantee that
> > appreciation for our history would be denied future generations also.
> >     How many take necessary medication daily while at r'vouz?  To be
> > authentic one should leave all modern medicines at home. After all,
> disease
> > and early death were 'authentic' back then.  As was infection, gangrene
> and
> > so on.
> >     Most of us do our best to preserve the period and respectful debate
> > about correctness of the times we recreate is fine and necessary.
> >     However, in my humble opinion, rude nit-pickers should please camp
> > downwind and downstream and stay away from my camp.  Friendly debaters
> > welcome.
> > Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
> >
> >
> > ----------------------
> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: 2 Mar 2000 18:36:03 -0800
From: Buck Conner <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TEST

On Thu, 02 March 2000, "D Miles" wrote:

>
> busy here - coming in to work at 3:30am getting out at 6pm all this week and
> last week.
>
> >>Keeps you off the streets....it's good for you..
>
>  Have you finished my folder yet ???
>
> >>I put the tiwaneese one back together and I have the blade for the new one
> done...You in a hurry?<G>
> D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

no hurray.

Later
Buck Conner
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"meat's not meat until it's in the pan"
                  Aux Aliments de Pays!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1980 19:13:33 -0800
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Blue willow ware

Real life is interfering with my ability to respond promptly, but I'll
try to get to each of these items in turn. First, the documentation I've
found for blue willow ware in the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821.

2 shards of pottery with blue transfer printing were excavated from Rocky
Mountain House I, which was occupied from 1799 to 1821. One of the shards
had been made into a button or bead. (Noble, 116, 118)

7 fragments from a "'Chinese-shaped' pearlware bowl decorated on the
outside and the interior centre with a cobalt blue underglaze
transfer-print which apparently depicts an English rural scene" were
excavated from Fort Wedderburne II (near Ft. Chipewyan), which was
occupied solely from 1817 to 1818. (Karklins, 238-239)

At Ft. George (N. Saskatchewan R.), a number of interesting shards were
found. 12 fragments of "blue-decorated, glazed earthenware" were
excavated. "The decoration has been described as an 'underglaze cobalt
blue transfer-printing, perhaps from the factories at Worcester or
Caughley' (Dr. Gerald Higgins, personal communication). Most of the
designs are almost certainly Chinese-derived, and some appear to be
willow pattern. Three additional shards may be similarly patterned,
although they retain only the white or bluish tinted background." Under
the heading "Blue-on-Cream Earthenware", the report states "A single
example may be of similar pattern to the above, but the background is
cream instead of white, and only a trace of blue decoration remains."
Finally, under the heading "Blue-decorated Porcelain", Kidd notes "Two
sepcimens of blue-figured, hard-paste porcelain, probably from Canton"
(Kidd, 128) Fort George was occupied from 1792 to 1800; in 1809,
Alexander Henry the Younger mentioned seeing its ruins, which he salvaged
to construct his own post at Fort Vermilion, many miles downstream.

What does it mean? It means that blue transfer-printed porcelain and
pottery (of which blue willow is one pattern) was definely present at
Canadian fur posts during the 1774-1821 period. If anyone wants the full
information on the references I cited, just ask.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

Your humb

- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #485
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.