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hist_text-digest       Sunday, February 27 2000       Volume 01 : Number 478



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
-áááááá MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)
-áááááá MtMan-List: Moth Proofing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens
-áááááá MtMan-List: Documentation was Re: Dutch Ovens?
-áááááá Re: [Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)]
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing  (Add On)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 08:11:54 -0800
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print

I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"?  Is it
totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass,
copper....?  I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and
ascribing a material to their fabrication!!

John Funk


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print


> Ho the list,
> Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life
in
> the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your
> browser and it should come up.
>
>            http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg
>
> Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore
> ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put
coals
> over the top...
>
> Ymos,
> Steve
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 1980 10:55:34 -0800
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)

With apologies to Dana Angluin, who wrote "How to Prove It", from which
I've shamelessly swiped many of the points, here is:

How to Document It (NOT!)
=========================

=>Documentation by generalization from single example:
Show that it was used once by someone in the period. Conclude it was
used by everyone throughout the period.

=>Documentation by intimidation:
"Obviously...", "Everyone knows that...". Insults and four-letter words
can also be effective.

=>Documentation by vigorous handwaving:
Works equally well at the campfire or in the classroom.

=>Documentation by cryptic footnotes:
(Smith, 1960, p. 19)

=>Documentation by omission:
"..."

=>Documentation by obfuscation:
A long string of true and/or meaningless statements barely relevant to
the point under discussion.

=>Documentation by fiction:
How could a famous historical novelist be wrong?

=>Documentation by eminent authority:
"I talked to Charlie Hanson and he said iron tripods were probably used."

=>Documentation by personal communication:
Iron tripods were widely used. (Charles Hanson, personal communication)

=>Documentation by reduction to the wrong evidence:
"Since bearclaw necklaces were widely worn by Native men, they were
doubtless also adopted by the Mountain Men."

=>Documentation by reference to inaccessible literature:
The best piece of documentary evidence for the point in question is to be
found in a private archive and/or in a different country.

=>Documentation by convenience:
Since the item in question is widely available today, it would really be
helpful if everyone agreed it was documented.

=>Documentation by illustration:
A drawing by a modern artist shows the item in an historical setting.

=>Documentation by vehement assertion:
It is useful to already be accepted as an authority by your audience. If
not, repetition helps.

=>Documentation by ghost reference:
Nothing even remotely resembling the point under discussion is to be
found in the reference given.

=>Documentation by forward reference:
Reference is usually to a forthcoming publication by the author, which is
often not as forthcoming as at first.

=>Documentation by semantic shift:
Some standard but inconvenient definitions are changed for the statement
of the result.

=>Documentation by appeal to intuition:
Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here.

Your very humble and most obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 11:25:40 -0800 (PST)
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing

   Hello the list !!!!
 I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool)
 Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away
from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store
them in my "Dutch Oven")
 Thanks
 George

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 12:49:12 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print

As I said, I can't look at any shape (other than perhaps the other gender)
and tell anyone anything about it. While I was writing an article some 16 or
so years ago, I was looking at the Miller painting and was caught in just
that situation. So I called Charles Hanson and asked him about it. It was
Charles that said he believed it to be cast iron. Since it was Charles
Hanson, with his years of experience, I took him at his word. I do not
suggest that you do so. My standards may be lower than yours.
- -----Original Message-----
From: John C. Funk, Jr. <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print


>I'm curious....how can you look at a shape and call it "cast iron"?  Is it
>totally impossible to fabricate such an item from sheet iron, brass,
>copper....?  I think that's the issue......we're looking at "shapes" and
>ascribing a material to their fabrication!!
>
>John Funk
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2000 4:49 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cast iron pots/Miller print
>
>
>> Ho the list,
>> Here's the Miller print, "Moonlight-camp scene" from Ruxton's book "Life
>in
>> the Far West" that we've been talking about. Just cut and paste in your
>> browser and it should come up.
>>
>>            http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/millerpot.jpg
>>
>> Sorry it's not better quality, but the pot is rather visible in the fore
>> ground..... looks cast iron to me and with the flat lid a guy could put
>coals
>> over the top...
>>
>> Ymos,
>> Steve
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 13:00:11 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)

Being somewhat of a curmudgeon and a cynic, I appreciate your satire.  And.
. . I will not pick at each point you included to show the other side of the
coin, except for the first one, documentation by generalization from single
example. I really have a thing about the purist (sometimes a pseudo
"historian") who says (concludes) that just because it can be proven that an
item was once used. . . it was not common - thereby indicating that once is
not enough for them. It must have been there in quantity for it to be
accepted. Which, at least to me, is pure, unmitigated poppy-cock. If it was
there once. . .ipso facto. And while I'm on the subject, if a noted
authority such as Charlie Hanson (who was not perfect, by his own admission)
made a statement during an interview, that he "believed" something was so,
and a person acts upon that information, the person is not necessarily
"wrong" unless what he has taken as gospel is subsequently disproven. He
hasn't, perhaps,  met the acid test of historical authenticity, but then
again, maybe his approach is to just satisfy himself, not the bush rangers.
Bill C
- -----Original Message-----
From: Angela Gottfred <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:28 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)


>With apologies to Dana Angluin, who wrote "How to Prove It", from which
>I've shamelessly swiped many of the points, here is:
>
>How to Document It (NOT!)
>=========================
>
>=>Documentation by generalization from single example:
>Show that it was used once by someone in the period. Conclude it was
>used by everyone throughout the period.
>
>=>Documentation by intimidation:
>"Obviously...", "Everyone knows that...". Insults and four-letter words
>can also be effective.
>
>=>Documentation by vigorous handwaving:
>Works equally well at the campfire or in the classroom.
>
>=>Documentation by cryptic footnotes:
>(Smith, 1960, p. 19)
>
>=>Documentation by omission:
>"..."
>
>=>Documentation by obfuscation:
>A long string of true and/or meaningless statements barely relevant to
>the point under discussion.
>
>=>Documentation by fiction:
>How could a famous historical novelist be wrong?
>
>=>Documentation by eminent authority:
>"I talked to Charlie Hanson and he said iron tripods were probably used."
>
>=>Documentation by personal communication:
>Iron tripods were widely used. (Charles Hanson, personal communication)
>
>=>Documentation by reduction to the wrong evidence:
>"Since bearclaw necklaces were widely worn by Native men, they were
>doubtless also adopted by the Mountain Men."
>
>=>Documentation by reference to inaccessible literature:
>The best piece of documentary evidence for the point in question is to be
>found in a private archive and/or in a different country.
>
>=>Documentation by convenience:
>Since the item in question is widely available today, it would really be
>helpful if everyone agreed it was documented.
>
>=>Documentation by illustration:
>A drawing by a modern artist shows the item in an historical setting.
>
>=>Documentation by vehement assertion:
>It is useful to already be accepted as an authority by your audience. If
>not, repetition helps.
>
>=>Documentation by ghost reference:
>Nothing even remotely resembling the point under discussion is to be
>found in the reference given.
>
>=>Documentation by forward reference:
>Reference is usually to a forthcoming publication by the author, which is
>often not as forthcoming as at first.
>
>=>Documentation by semantic shift:
>Some standard but inconvenient definitions are changed for the statement
>of the result.
>
>=>Documentation by appeal to intuition:
>Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here.
>
>Your very humble and most obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:12:56 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "George Noe" <[e-mail]>
To: "hist_ text" <[e-mail]>
Sent: February 27, 2000 2:25 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing


>    Hello the list !!!!
>  I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool)
>  Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away
> from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store
> them in my "Dutch Oven")

A cedar chest would be the best place. If you don't have one, you can always
put a few moth balls in with blankets into a large garbage bag.

Fred



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 14:14:47 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing

George,

Use them, don't worry about it. =20

I've got two that have NEVER seen the inside of a cedar chest I traded for=
 in
1978 that are still just fine.  They have been my only bedding for many=
 years
at a time, and frequent bedding all the others.  They have been piled in a
corner when they weren't on the ground or in the back of a truck.  They have
remained rolled up for months at a time and wadded up other months.  Each
has a
fringed edge where my young pup got them tangled up with a deer leg=
 alongside
the White River after riding through the Devil's Playground at midnight with=
 a
full moon on my birthday in '79.  Same day my horse threw his brand new=
 shoes
in the mud where we had to stop and boil water down stream from a few towns=
 to
cross the alkali desert that we faced, headed South for the winter. =20

I have done NOTHING to preserve them.  I can't remember ever washing them,
wool
don't really seem to need it, or benefit from it, I air them in the sun and
beat them with an old wire carpet beater  or a smooth stick once in a while.=
=20
Dry them when they get wet -- when I get the chance.

All in all damn fine blankets.  Ain't nothing else lasted so long, nor=
 served
so well, nor been used so much.

John...


At 11:25 AM 2/27/00 -0800, you wrote:
>=A0=A0 Hello the list !!!!
> I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool)
> Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away
>from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store
>them in my "Dutch Oven")
> Thanks
> George
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>George R. Noe< [e-mail] >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
><http://im.yahoo.com/>http://im.yahoo.com
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>=20
John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>=20


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 16:09:28 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens

Washtahay-
At 08:01 AM 2/27/00 -0600, you wrote:
>> Actually, what you have found is that the items were found at a place=
 once
>>visited by mountain men.  The fort was abandoned long after 1840-and no
>>doubt many things came in later.
>
>Chittendonin his work American Fur Trade says It began operation in1829 was
>at the height of operation in 1843 and was destroyed in 1852.
    Many references mention visiting the fort and its remains after that time. =
=20

>Archeological digs are not just willy nilly random searches for junk lying
>around. The entire purpose of excavating the fort was to determine what
>types of items were used there,and at what time. Why? For people like you
>and me to be able to use the information and get an accurate idea of what
>the past may have been like.
    I agree.  But no one has shown that those items were present before Bent
blew the place up. =20

>Also, the question just begs to be asked, what would you consider to be
>adequate evidence?
    See my other post on this.

> Kinda tough when you say reference to the name "dutch
>oven"  can't be used.=20
    I haven't said that.  What I said was that the meaning of the term "dutch
oven" was unclear. =20

> Doesn't anyone
>else have the book on the dig at Bents Fort?
    Without titles, accessing stuff like this can be difficult, so I pulled a
bunch out of my reference list.  The one most relevant to your manuscript
(what is it you have-field notes, copy or draft of Moore's masters thesis?)
seems to be "Bent's Old Fort; an archeological study" by Jackson W. Moore,=
 Jr.
    Other archaeological work has been documented in "1976 archeological
investigations, trash dump excavations, area surveys, and monitoring of
fort construction and landscaping : Bent's Old Fort National Historic Site,
Colorado" from the National Parks Service. =20
    Of the works dealing with various aspects of Bent's Fort at the time of
abandonment and after are "Bent's Fort" by Lavender, "Bent's old fort and
its builders" by G. B. Grinnell, "Bents' stockade hidden in the hills" by
C. W. Hurd, "Citadel on the Santa Fe Trail" by R. A. Murray, "G=FAadal P'a;
the journal of Lieutenant J. W. Abert, from Bent's Fort to St. Louis in
1845" by J.W. Abert.
    For mention of some fo the activity in the area after the period of the
fort's operation, you might look at "Notes from a cowboy's diary ..."( my
copy of the microfilm is subtitled "Ranching experiences at Bent's Fort in
1876") by W.H. Sears. =20
    For laughs, you might want to look at "The plains, being a collection of
veracious memoranda, taken during the expedition of exploration in the year
1845, from the western settlements of Missouri to the Mexican border, and
from Bent's Fort on the Arkansas to Fort Gibson via south fork of Canadian"
by F. Des Montaignes of St. Louis-let's just say he doesn't paint the west,
or Fremont, in a good light. =20
    I will be checking the archaeological references this week and will post
what I find, and urge others to do the same.=20
LongWalker c. du B.




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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 16:10:44 -0600
From: Jim Colburn <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Documentation was Re: Dutch Ovens?

Washtahay-
I wrote:
>.  As there were three items called "dutch ovens in the
>> late 18th/early 19th century, it could be any of the three.
And Walt wrote in reply:
>What 3?
    Grabbing a convenient dictionary ("Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged
Dictionary of the English Language" New Revised Edition copyright 1994),
"dutch oven" is defined as: "1. a heavily constructed kettle with a
close-fitting lid used for pot roasts, stews, etc.  2. a metal utensil,
open in front, for roasting before an open fire.  3. a brick oven in which
the walls are pre-heated for cooking."  For our purposes, we are using the
term "dutch oven" to refer to definition #1, right?
    There is nothing that establishes Colter's dutch oven as meeting
definition #1-it may have been like definition #2 (but it is likely not
definition #3 as it was presumably moved from the site).

And Northwoods wrote:
>Also, the question just begs to be asked, what would you consider to be
>adequate evidence?
    Short form: determining if "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were
available during the fur trade era and what they were called, if they were
available on the frontier during the fur trade era, and if they were in
use-in the field-during the fur trade era.

    Slightly longer form:
    Each person establishes the level of documentation necessary for his or
her own "comfort level" of period correctness.  For some, a friend saying
it is so may be enough, or simply because they like the way it looks or
functions.  For others, it may be a single mention of an item in a roughly
contemporary document.  Still others may want extensive research and
documentation.  What is acceptable depends on the person and on the
organization (if any) they are connected with.
    By the first standard, almost anything goes.
    By the second standard, mention of Stewart's expedition may let them be
comfortable with beds, bathtubs, canned food, and fine wines and brandies
being hauled to rendezvous in several wagons.  Or they may be comfortable
basing their outfit on Ruxton's descriptions, written after the period in
question.
    By the third standard, the person may be satisfied with several mentions
in supply lists and contemporary references, or insist on full-scale
documentation.
    Its all up to the person in question, and the standards he or she wants to
use.

    Really long form:
    If I were trying to document "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) (or any
other item) as having been present in the field during what we are loosely
defining as "the fur trade era"-roughly 1800-1840, I would go about it in
approximately the following manner, with the full expectation that at some
points I might not be able to establish a connection.  But I should get
enough information to make an informed judgement if the item in question
was available, and its frequency of use.  By my personal standard, this is
the procedure I would want followed to document any item not commonly found
in the written and archaeological record.

    (Someone once questioned -offlist- my statement that I had spent 500-600
hours researching and documenting my mocs as being period correct.  What
follows is the basic procedure I used to do so, modified for the subject of
the intended research- an item mass-produced by relatively heavy industry,
requiring a fairly high investment of capital.  It can eat up a lot of
time, it can cost a fair amount of money for reference materials, in
travel, etc.  Its definitely not for everyone.  But if you can track an
item through all this, you should be able to resolve any questions you may
have had about its use.)
    The nice thing about a procedure like this is that you can decide at any
time that you have answered your question to your own satisfaction.
    Please excuse any typos, etc.

I.    A. Consult with etymological references to determine when and where
the term "dutch oven" came into use, and what other terms were used for
 a kettle meeting (definition #1 above) during the time period in question.
    B. Consult references dealing with industrial history to find out
when and where production of cooking utensils meeting (definition #1 above)
began, establish (possibly) that they were in production during the time
period in question, and potential producers of said item.
    (I.A. would establish-hopefully-what the item was called at the time.
I.B. would tell if the item was made during the period in question.)

II.    A. Examine illustrated trade catalogs, beginning with the companies
 found in I.B., looking for pictures of the item in question.
    B. Examine business records of any companies found in II.A. to determine
which wholesalers they dealt with.
    C. Examine illustrated catalogs of wholesalers and jobbers based in,
or with agents in, the United States-again, looking for pictures of the item
in question.
    (II.A. would confirm the answer of I.A.  II.B. would establish a chain
between the manufacturer and the wholesaler.  II.C. would establish that
the item was available from wholesalers or jobbers in the United States.
Cast iron is different from items such as fire strikers-anyone with a forge
can produce strikers, but cast iron usually implies heavier industry and
more people.)

III.     A. Examine records of wholesalers and jobbers from II.C., and from
U.S. trading companies, seeking to establish business connections during
the period in question.
    B. Examine records of wholesalers and jobbers from II. C., and from
the U.S. Interior Department, seeking to establish business connections
during
the period in question.
    C. Examine records of wholesalers and jobbers from II. C., and from
the U.S. military, seeking to establish business connections during the period
in question.
    D. Examine records of wholesalers and jobbers from II. C., and from
British companies such as the NWCo. and HBC, seeking to establish business
conenctions during the period in question.
    (III.A. would show if American companies dealt with the wholesalers and
jobbers found in II.C.  III.B. would show if the U.S. government dealt with
the wholesalers and jobbers from II.C. when purchasing supplies for the
"Indian Factories"-the government trading posts.  III.C. would show if the
U.S. military bought supplies from the wholesalers and jobbers from II.C.
III.D. would show if companies like HBC and the NWCo dealt with those
wholesalers and jobbers in II.C.
    III.B., C., and D. would consider alternate routes for the items in
question to enter the American fur trade during the period in question.)

IV.     A. Examine records from the various American companies to see if
"dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were purchased from the companies found
in III.A.
    B. Examine records from the government purchasing agencies to see if
"dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were purchased from the companies found
in III.B.
    C. Examine records from the quartermaster's department to see if
"dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were purchased from the companies found
in III.C.
    D. Examine records from the various British/Canadian companies to see
if "dutch ovens" (definition #1 above) were purchased from the companies
found in III.D.
    (IV. would establish the items we now call "dutch ovens" were purchased by
the American trading companies, the US Indian Factories, the US military,
or British/Canadian trading companies.

V.    A. Examine orders from the field, purchasing records, and shipping
records from the companies in II.A. to determine who ordered the items,
who the items were purchased for, and where they were shipped.
    B. Examine orders from the field, purchasing records, and shipping
records from the purchasing agencies in II.B. to determine who ordered the
items, who the items were purchased for, and where they were shipped.
    C. Examine shipping orders from the field, purchasing records, and
shipping records from the Quartermaster Corp to determine who ordered the
items, who the items were purchased for, and where they were shipped.  Also
look at the lists of standard equipment supplied to each field kitchen,
fort, etc.
    D. Examine from the field, purchasing records, and shipping records
from the companies in II.D. to determine who ordered the items, who the
items were purchased for, and where they were shipped.  With companies
like HBC and the NWCo, I would also look at standard equipment for each
post, expedition, etc.
    (V. would establish if the items were in demand on the frontier, if they
were sent to posts on the frontier or to trading companies, Indian
factories, military bases, etc.)

VI.     A. Examine records from V. to see if the items in question were sent
 to the field or stayed at posts and forts.
    B. Determine if the items were purchased for use by a particular
individual or if they were purchased in quantity for trade.
    C. Look for regular orders for indications that the items in question
may have been being stolen (for private use or for trade) or may have been
broken with some frequency.
    (VI.A. and B. would establish if the items in question were available
for purchase or if they were considered "fixed assets" of the trading
companies.  VI.C. would establish unusual demand, indicating a possible
"black
market" demand or frequent attrition that might be evidenced by the
archaeological record.)

VII.     A. Examine records of trading posts and traders for items meeting
(definition #1 above).  If they were traded, to whom?  Were they given as
gifts?  To whom?
    B. Examine records of the Indian factories for items meeting
(definition #1 above).  If they were traded, to whom?  If they were fixed
assets of the posts, when the post was closed what happened to them?  Examine
sales of surplus, etc.
    C. Examine records of forts and military units for indications that
the items (definition #1 above) might have entered civilian hands via surplus
 sales, abandonment, etc.
    D. Examine company and post records to see if the items were traded,
and to whom.  Examine records for indications that they might have been sold
as surplus, abandoned, etc.  Examine records to see if they might have been
given as gifts, if so-to whom?
    (VII. should hopefully establish if the items entered general trade, and
who the purchasers were.  Obviously, if the items were available but only
sold to farmers, this would indicate that maybe they weren't wanted in the
field.)

VIII.     A. Examine contemporary records-field journals, diaries, records of
sales in the field, lists of equipage for trapping parties, etc for items
meeting (definition #1 above) in use, in the field.
    B. Examine contemporary field sketches and paintings executed in the
field of artists in the area for illustrations of the items in use, in the
field.
    C. Examine wills, probate documents, and estate sales taking place in
the area in question, prior to the cutoff date of the period in question, for
items meeting (definition #1 above).
    (VIII. will show the presence of the item we know as "dutch ovens" in the
field rather than as fixtures in a post.  The insistence in VIII.B. on work
done in the field is to show that the items were there in the field, rather
than added at a later date for purposes of composition.)

IX.    A. Examine collections of museums for artifacts meeting (definition
#1 above) documented as having been in use in the time and area in question,
by people engaged in the fur trade.
    B. Examine archaeological reports and artifact collections for items
meeting (definition #1 above) that can be shown to have been collected from
sites in use in the time and area in question, by people engaged in the fur
trade, and not subject to later contamination.
    (IX.A. will show similarities between the item in question and similar
modern-produced items.  IX.B. will show the item actually in the field.
    The requirement in IX.B. "not subject to later contamination" removes any
question of interpretation from the documentation.  For example, if I just
wanted to show that cast-iron cauldrons were in use prior to 1840, I could
point to items recovered at Point Royale (which was flooded and covered
with muc and sand prior to that date), or items archaeologically recovered
from shipwrecks dating prior to 1840 and undisturbed since.  But cauldrons
and parts thereof recovered from a trash dump in use from 1700-1900 would
not be adequate as the subject of stratigraphy and its interpretation can
be contentious.)

LongWalker c. du B.




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------------------------------

Date: 27 Feb 00 17:35:36 EST
From: Concho Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: How to Document It (Humor)]

[e-mail] (Bill Cunningham) wrote:
Being somewhat of a curmudgeon and a cynic, I appreciate your satire.....=
=2E  =

And while I'm on the subject, if a noted authority such as Charlie Hanson=
 (who
was not perfect, by his own admission) made a statement during an intervi=
ew,
that he "believed" something was so, and a person acts upon that informat=
ion,
the person is not necessarily "wrong" unless what he has taken as gospel =
is
subsequently disproven. He hasn't, perhaps,  met the acid test of histori=
cal
authenticity........
_______________________________________________________

A small group from Loveland CO would travel north to see Charlie hanson e=
ach
year, staying 3-4 days / museum would be closed to the public.

And as Bill has stated "Charlie Hanson (who was not perfect, by his own
admission) made a statement....." - we would write down that this was thi=
s or
that was that. One day he told us to stop quoting him, he made and retrac=
ked
many incorrect statements - made a few years before, as his research cont=
inued
he found mistakes in many ideas that he and others had had. Like he told =
us
this is what research is all about - checks and double checks, nothing is=
 100%
firm.

Later
Concho.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm=
ail.netscape.com.

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:39:34 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing


George, and John....good post.  What neck of the woods is the White River
and Devil's Playground? Bad deal your horse throwing his brand new shoes in
the mud.  I can't remember having shoe problems like that but I have not
been back up on horseback since 1966.  How did you solve the problem?  We do
not have moths around here in Montana, or at least I have never had the
problem.  Over the years I have seen a lot of neat ways guys and gals were
handling bedding including the expensive and valuable blanket you have
George.  For home storage you can go the garbage bag and a moth ball or 2
but be sure to air them in advance to before you go.  The carry the odor a
long time and sensitive mountain nose will pick it up.  Like John I use my
wool blankets all the time but my wife is sensitive to wool.  She uses a
heavy old linen church curtain as a sheet.  Where did you winter in 78 John.
I spent that winter in Great Falls, Montana, my second go around with the
hunting around there.  Including visiting Lewis and Clark sites and camping
for extended periods along that part of the trail.  My arm was a J. Hall
Sharon half stock Hawken kit I started in 1974.  That muzzle loader would
really shoot.  There is a place out of Great Falls to the north past Black
Eagle out on the Bootlegger Trail that was the area where Lewis and Clark
said it was black with buffalo.  Today it is called Blackhorse.  The places
being talked about so far on the list I have been to more than once as I
followed the Montana trail of Lewis and Clark over the years.  Finally got
to see Fort Union Trading Post this year.  Someone said in physical size it
was bigger than Bent.
Walt
Park City, Montana

Use them, don't worry about it.

I've got two that have NEVER seen the inside of a cedar chest I traded for
in
1978 that are still just fine.  They have been my only bedding for many
years
at a time, and frequent bedding all the others.  They have been piled in a
corner when they weren't on the ground or in the back of a truck.  They have
remained rolled up for months at a time and wadded up other months.  Each
has a
fringed edge where my young pup got them tangled up with a deer leg
alongside
the White River after riding through the Devil's Playground at midnight with
a
full moon on my birthday in '79.  Same day my horse threw his brand new
shoes
in the mud where we had to stop and boil water down stream from a few towns
to
cross the alkali desert that we faced, headed South for the winter.

I have done NOTHING to preserve them.  I can't remember ever washing them,
wool
don't really seem to need it, or benefit from it, I air them in the sun and
beat them with an old wire carpet beater  or a smooth stick once in a while.
Dry them when they get wet -- when I get the chance.

All in all damn fine blankets.  Ain't nothing else lasted so long, nor
served
so well, nor been used so much.

John...


At 11:25 AM 2/27/00 -0800, you wrote:
> Hello the list !!!!
> I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool)
> Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths away
>from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to store
>them in my "Dutch Oven")
> Thanks
> George
>
>=====
>George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
><http://im.yahoo.com/>http://im.yahoo.com
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info:
<http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html>http://www.xmission.com/
~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
John T. Kramer, maker of:

Kramer's Best Antique Improver
>>>It makes wood wonderful<<<
>>>As good as old!<<<

<http://www.kramerize.com/>

mail to: <[e-mail]>


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 16:00:20 -0700
From: "Walt Foster" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Proof of Dutch ovens

I will be checking the archaeological references this week and will post
what I find, and urge others to do the same.
LongWalker c. du B.

Good post LongWalker,
What we have so far is the element on the trail.  It would be a neat thing
if John could read the bottom pours.  I am going to call Ft Union tomorrow
and remember Dutch oven is referenced by Clark, Biddle and the current
authority being used,[ Mortin or Molton?]  I think even the naysayers could
go along for this ride.  Because of what we all can learn together and as
individuals.  Great stuff have popped up during this building of this
thread.  And what stems from here.  I do not carry a pot or frying pan of
any type in my early man camp 1800-1820.  I am glad to know I am at least
somewhat legal in my middle man camp 1823-1837 with the round pot.  And
1838-1850 during the hay day period of the mountain men who stayed in Crow
Country....what is now south central Montana and north central Wyoming.
Walt
Park City, Montana


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 15:11:31 -0800 (PST)
From: George Noe <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moth Proofing  (Add On)

  Those "rascally" moths are a problem in Oklahoma, at
least at my house. We have had some damage to items in
the house.

- --- George Noe <[e-mail]> wrote:
>    Hello the list !!!!
>  I recently aquired some Hudson Bay Blankets. (Wool)
>  Anyone have a sure fire method of keeping moths
> away
> from them , while in storage ? (I don't want to
> store
> them in my "Dutch Oven")
>  Thanks
>  George
>
> =====
> George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
>
> Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the
> skyline.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info:
> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>

=====
George R. Noe< [e-mail] >
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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