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hist_text-digest       Saturday, January 1 2000       Volume 01 : Number 440



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated...
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: Loading blocks
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders
-áááááá MtMan-List: Re: Thoughts on a Year's End
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Re: Thoughts on a Year's End
-áááááá MtMan-List: Aphishamores
-áááááá MtMan-List: Flint and Steel
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:02:47 -0800
From: David Woodbury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated...

At 10:11 AM -0500 12/31/99, [e-mail] wrote:
>I  just read a mention about the "Jed Smith Society"  Is there such a real
>group or was this just a metaphor?  I am interested in knowing more.  Offline
>will be okay.

The organization dates back to 1957, headquartered on the campus of
the University of the Pacific in Stockton, Calif.

http://www1.uop.edu/organizations/JSS96.html


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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:23:07 -0600
From: farseer <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Loading blocks

I used a 7/16 bit for the .45.  I shoot a .445 ball with .015 patch.  It was
a little loose, but not bad once the ball was patched, stayed put when I was
loping through the woods, seeing how well things stayed where I put 'em.

I've made blocks for my .40 and my .50, but half the time I don't use them.
I definitely second the recommendation on forstner bits though,
unfortunately, they don't make the forstners (least I haven't found them) in
the "off" sizes like 29/64.  Also, make sure you put a harder piece of wood
underneath your block when drilling - good practice anytime, but it
eliminates splintering and tearing at breakthrough.


Todd

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of R Lahti
> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 3:59 PM
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Loading blocks
>
>
>
>
> "Henry B. Crawford" wrote:
> >
> > What size of spade bit is correct for drilling a loading block for a .45
> > patched round ball?
>
> Henry,
>
> Baring any more precise answers: I go for a hole just bore size or a bit
> bigger. I also prefer using Forstner Bits for a cleaner hole. Measure
> the available bit sizes and go from there. If your hole admits to a
> loose fit with a patched ball in the requisite size you can tighten up
> the hole by several coats of varnish. The varnish also helps to prevent
> the wood drawing off your lube. If the available bit will provide too
> tight a hole, you can open it up with a round rasp.
>
> If your hole needs be .45 you will find that a 7/16" bit will be too
> small by .0125", but if you go with a 29/64" bit it will be too large by
> only .0031". Which do you wish to work with? A test hole or two is
> called for.
>
> Since I have not made a loading block for a .45 I can't begin to tell
> you what bit to start with but refer you to the above as a path to
> travel for the answer. Perhaps someone else will know the exact size
> that worked for their particular bore size and it will work for you too.
> Hope this helps, I remain.....
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:08:05 PST
From: "Kevin Pitman" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders

Speaking of tea, how prevalent was the Lapsang Souchong variety (McKeag's
favorite from Centennial). I have a couple of pounds of the stuff, and I
love though my wife says it smells like a three day old campfire (don't know
what's wrong with that either). For those in Texas at least, Cost Plus
carries bulk teas including the more exotic or hard to find varieties ie)
Lapsang Souchong. Thanks.

YMOS,

Kevin Pitman (still waiting to earn a "name")



>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders
>Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:26:06 -0800
>
>It's been a long time since I've really tried to find good data on coffee
>during the fur trade, but it seems to me that when I was doing research in
>that or adjacent areas, water or tea was the most often mentioned
>non-alcoholic beverage. It made sense to me because tea is less bulky to
>pack, easier to prepare, and at that time, perhaps more readily available.
>Tea was also reputed to have some medicinal properties.
>Bill C
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>Date: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 10:39 AM
>Subject: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders
>
>
> >Ho the list,
> >
> >Just when ya think all the dumb questions have been asked.....
> >
> >One of the items I got for being a good camper this year is a neat
>antique
> >coffee grinder that stills works great.  So.....my question is: How long
>have
> >coffee grinders been around...... and how did the Mountain Men grind
>their
> >coffee? I've tried using my rifle butt, or hawk, or a rock and wooden
>bowl,
> >but there must be a better way.
> >
> >Hope everyone had a great Christmas, and have a Happy New Year!
> >
> >Ymos,
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >----------------------
> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
> >
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 18:05:27 -0500
From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help.

Joe,

Do you have a sewing machine?  go down to the fabric store and pick up some
duck canvas (white)  get the 60" wide stuff.  buy about 5 or 6 yards take it
home and wash it and dye it green or brown or red.  once dry lay out on the
floor 60 inch left to right and double it down.  Then lay a sweatshirt on
it, measure about an inch away from the bottom of the sleeves and sides of
the shirt and put pins then take it to the machine.  What you are doing is
making a pioneer shirt. once all sewn cut away excess and and cut a neck
hole. Note: make it just big enough to fit your head through.  Turn inside
out and wala you have a pioneer shirt.  Wrap a big 3" belt around your waist
and now all you need to do is make the pants.

Pants - go down to k-mart and buy yourself a pair of painters pants, the
canvas ones.  cut off hammer loops, dye brown and you have your pants.  Or
what I did when I first started buckskinning , I used a dark brown pair of
Kaki pants worked great and from a distance they looked like buckskins.

Good Luck

email me at [e-mail] if you have any questions.





- ----- Original Message -----
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 8:16 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help.


> Hello Gentlemen & Ladies.
>
> I've been lurking in the shadows for awhile and I've learned a lot. I need
> your help and advice. Our local community historical society started a
spirit
> night last year. It is essentially a walking tour of the town where you
get
> to meet famous and infamous town people from the past. It was a great hit.
I
> got conned(pun intended) into playing a prisoner in the county jail who
got
> hung for his misdeeds. I must've been convincing as evidently several
people
> thought I was a real convict. This coming year I'd like to prepare a skit
for
> a trapper, mountain man, frontiersman etc.who would describe  what the
area
> looked like prior to when the town was here. The area in question is
western
> Pennsylvania. The town is Ebensburg PA, settled in the 1790's. It sits on
top
> of the Allegheny Ridge. So I'd be looking for advice on attire for a
trapper
> or frontiersman from the early to mid 1700's in western PA. That's the
first
> problem. The second problem is this. I figure I'd be the ideal person to
play
> this part. I'm 6' 2" 300lbs, Full beard and mustache and a pony tail. The
> clothing will all have to be in the 2X, 3X, 4X. size..... and since I more
> than likely will only wear it once or twice a year, the outfit must be
> inexpensive.
>
> I await your sage advice and recommendations.
>
> Joe Umholtz
> Experienced convict and novice mountain man.
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:04:28 -0800
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion

Awh come on folks..........lets dump this stuff..............this isn't the
forum that this sight was designed for.  We can keep this stiff going on for
the next 1000 years without EVER coming to a common ground.  So, lets get
back to the "common ground"  that we can ALL identify with..............

Remember.........it's called the "Fur Trade"..............

John Funk


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Victoria Pate <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion


>
>
>   My fear is that these rights are all
> > but gone and
> > that we will shortly see an increase and renewal of human right
> > violations
> > occuring in this country under the guise of State Protection !
> >
> > Forrest  #1691
>
>
> As in the travesty of David Koresh and the Branch
> Davidians, comprised of many women and children,
> who were burned to death in Waco, Texas by  Big
> Brother  in order to "protect them from themselves".
>
> Texan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > David Woodbury wrote:
> >
> > > At 4:52 AM +0000 12/29/99, John Dearing wrote:
> > > >I do believe the point of this reference was to illustrate how
> > > >registering firearms, "just so the government would know who
> > owned
> > > >them" can be, and was used to find out where those firearms were,
> > > >then forced the owners to turn them in or to become criminals.
> > >
> > > Sorry to keep dragging this out, but the "point" of the reference
> > was
> > > the concluding comment in the message to which I responded.
> > Summing
> > > up the reference, Texan said:
> > >       "What is happening in California is evidence
> > >       of what is called encroachment, which has as
> > >       its eventual goal the law abiding citizen being
> > >       completely disarmed."
> > >
> > > Incidentally, if I read Texan's excerpt correctly, the only people
> > > being asked to turn in guns were those who already owned these
> > > so-called military style firearms, but who failed to register them
> > in
> > > the 2+ years allotted. Whether or not you agree that the Attorney
> > > General had the authority to tell people they could register them
> > > after that 1992 date (evidently a court disagreed), the fact
> > remains
> > > that the state of California allowed everyone to *keep* their
> > > weapons, except those who failed to meet the extraordinarily
> > generous
> > > deadline (between 1989 and 1992, according to Texan's excerpt).
> > >
> > > >Any registration scheme can, and based on recent history, will be
> > > >used for the purpose of confiscation.
> > >
> > > Seems to me it is just the opposite. Is there anything you can
> > point
> > > me to which shows a trend toward confiscating the registered
> > weapons
> > > of citizens? The example used here deals with 1,600 guns that the
> > > owners originally failed to register by the deadline (I think the
> > > Johnny-come-latelys did get screwed, but they could easily have
> > > avoided the problem by complying with the law initially). But
> > surely
> > > the millions of registered weapons in this country have remained
> > > legally secure in their owners' possession just as long as they
> > were
> > > legally registered.  What recent history are you referring to
> > > (admittedly, it's not something I follow very closely).
> > >
> > > >I do believe the Second Amendment contains the phrase "the right
> > of
> > > >the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed",
> > according
> > > >to the Thordike Barnhart Dictionary, an infringement is anything
> > > >that hinders, violates, encroaches upon, or intrudes upon, in
> > this
> > > >case, the lawful ownership of firearms.
> > >
> > > And the courts, in light of the *entire* sentence (referencing
> > > militias), have consistently ruled that the amendment in no way
> > > suggests an inalienable personal right for a citizen to possess
> > > whatever weaponry they wish without some legislative constraints.
> > >
> > > >That means that the government does not have the legitimate
> > > >authority to, in any way, restrict the ownership of firearms to
> > it's
> > > >law abiding citizens.
> > >
> > > That's one interpretation. Just not the one that most courts have
> > arrived at.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > ----------------------
> > > hist_text list info:
> > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>


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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 21:01:15 -0000
From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders

I searched Dean Rudy's hist_text archives
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/cgi-bin/uncgi-bin/site_search.html

and found about 32 references to coffee and 18 to tea.  Although a little
past the rendezvous era, Ruxton summarizes it pretty well:

The absence of coffee he made the theme of regret at every meal, bewailing
his misfortune in not having at that particular moment a supply of this
article, which he never before was without, and which I may here observe,
amongst the hunters and trappers, when in camp or rendevous, is considered
as an indispensable necessary. Coffee, being very cheap in the States, is
the universal beverage of the western people, and finds its way to the
mountains in the packs of the Indian traders, who retail it to the
mountain-men at the moderate price of from two to six dollars the half-pint
cup. However, my friend Laforey was never known to possess any, and his
lamentations were only intended to soften my heart, as he thought
(erroneously) that I must certainly carry a supply with me.


"Sacre enfant de Garce," he would exclaim, mixing English, French, and
Spanish into a puchero-like jumble, "voyez-vous dat I vas nevare tan pauvre
as dis time; mais before I vas siempre avec plenty cafe, plenty sucre; mais
now, God dam, I not go a Santa Fe" God dam, and mountain-men dey come aqui
from autre cote, drink all my cafe. Sacre enfant de Garce, nevare I vas tan
pauvre as dis time, God dam. I not care comer meat, ni frijole, ni corn,
mais widout cafe I no live. I hunt may be two, three day, may be one week,
mais I eat notin'; mais sin cafe, enfant de Garce, I no live, parce-que me
not sacre Espagnol, mais one Frenchman."

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner

>Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:26:06 -0800
>From: [e-mail] (Bill Cunningham)
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders

>It's been a long time since I've really tried to find good data on coffee
>during the fur trade, but it seems to me that when I was doing research in
>that or adjacent areas, water or tea was the most often mentioned
>non-alcoholic beverage. It made sense to me because tea is less bulky to
>pack, easier to prepare, and at that time, perhaps more readily available.
>Tea was also reputed to have some medicinal properties.
>Bill C





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Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:58:26 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Thoughts on a Year's End

"So ends the year..., but let it pass in silence to oblivion, with the
thousands that have gone before, and must hereafter follow it.  Its hopes,
its fears, can no longer excite or agitate; its perils, and privations, are
already half forgotten; and even the severe disappointments it produced, have
entirely lost the ability to disturb.  Well!  with all its imperfections on
its head, let it descend to the dark void of by-gone eternity, and we, older
if not wiser, will again look forward with eager curiosity, to the events
which yet slumber in the bosom of another; with wishes that will probably
prove to be vain, with hopes that may be destined to experience
disappointment, and with expectations that are doubtless doomed to be
blasted; but which are all, notwithstanding their frailty and uncertainty,
cherished with fondness, perhaps with folly."

Warren A. Ferris
December 31, 1833
Thompson Creek

Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Leroy R. Hafen, ed. Old
West Publishing Co., Denver, CO. 1983. p. 310.

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Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 01:02:21 -0800
From: "Wayne & Terri" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Thoughts on a Year's End

My Brothers,

It is almost one here in the northwest.  I guess the world has not ended and
we must be Y2K compliant or I would not be sending this out.   I hope that
your new years was as good as it could be.


May the spirits see you though another year.  And may you always have the
sunshine on you   when you are in camp and may your bedroll be soft.

A Brother

Wayne Harper
3 strings


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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:12:26 -0700
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Aphishamores

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Finally a subject I feel somewhat qualified to contribute to.

Joe Back shows a picture of an aparejo in his book Horses, Hitches. and =
Rocky Trails.  He discribes it as a "good Spainish pack saddle."    It =
does appear to have more padding built into it than other types of pack =
saddles and I have heard that it was good for more wieght than a =
sawbuck.  But that could be simply because the Spainards were just more =
prone to over loading their stock.

The referances to apishamores that I have read appear to refer more to a =
saddle pad that went over the tree of a  saddle (both pack and riding) =
rather than under it.  It would be similar to a mochilla although from =
the sound at least of softer material.  In this use it seems like it =
would wear the riders hide more than the stock animal.   =20
=20
I am blessed/cursed with a 1400 lbs quarter horse and several other such =
critters including a eight month old long ear.  I will be exceedingly =
pleased to experiment with any hair on buffalo hide if someone would =
like to donate the above said item to me.  <G>

Yours=20
WYnn

=20
=20
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:51:37 +0000
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Aphishamores ???

Regarding these...Dick Patten in his new BOBVIII article talks about =
using a
buffalo apishemore nad found that they rubbed his horses and mules bad.
Have others found this to be the case nad what do they do instead?
Rick

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of George Noe
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 4:04 AM
To: hist_ text
Subject: MtMan-List: Aphishamores ???


 In Terry C. Johnston's book "Blood Song". book 8 of
the series "THE PLAINSMEN"
 I have found ,
 Aphishamores, the leather and canvas covers for the
pack saddles.
   Aparejos, saddle pads used beneath the mules'
wooden pack frames.
 Just thought I wood pass this along as I raised the
question earlier.
 grn





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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Finally a subject I feel somewhat =
qualified to=20
contribute to.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Joe Back shows a picture of an aparejo =
in his book=20
Horses, Hitches. and Rocky Trails.  He discribes it as a "good =
Spainish=20
pack saddle."    It does appear to have more padding =
built into=20
it than other types of pack saddles and I have heard that it was good =
for more=20
wieght than a sawbuck.  But that could be simply because the =
Spainards were=20
just more prone to over loading their stock.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The referances to apishamores that I =
have read=20
appear to refer more to a saddle pad that went over the tree of a  =
saddle=20
(both pack and riding) rather than under it.  It would be similar =
to a=20
mochilla although from the sound at least of softer material.  In =
this use=20
it seems like it would wear the riders hide more than the stock=20
animal.    </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am blessed/cursed with a 1400 lbs =
quarter horse=20
and several other such critters including a eight month =
old long=20
ear.  I will be exceedingly pleased to experiment with any =
hair on=20
buffalo hide if someone would like to donate the above said item to =
me. =20
<G></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yours </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WYnn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:51:37 =
+0000<BR>From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]</A><BR>Subjec=
t: RE:=20
MtMan-List: Aphishamores ???<BR><BR>Regarding these...Dick Patten in his =
new=20
BOBVIII article talks about using a<BR>buffalo apishemore nad found that =
they=20
rubbed his horses and mules bad.<BR>Have others found this to be the =
case nad=20
what do they do instead?<BR>Rick<BR><BR>-----Original =
Message-----<BR>From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">owner-hist_text@lists.=
xmission.com</A><BR>[<A=20
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">mailto:owner-hist_text=
@lists.xmission.com</A>]On=20
Behalf Of George Noe<BR>Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 4:04 =
AM<BR>To: hist_=20
text<BR>Subject: MtMan-List: Aphishamores ???<BR><BR><BR> In Terry =
C.=20
Johnston's book "Blood Song". book 8 of<BR>the series "THE =
PLAINSMEN"<BR> I=20
have found ,<BR> Aphishamores, the leather and canvas covers for=20
the<BR>pack saddles.<BR>   Aparejos, saddle pads used beneath =
the=20
mules'<BR>wooden pack frames.<BR> Just thought I wood pass this =
along as I=20
raised the<BR>question=20
earlier.<BR> grn<BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:26:26 -0700
From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel

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My nephew and I were discussing the merits and faults of lighting fires =
with flint and steel and he posed a question as to how someone in say =
Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the home.  Or another way =
to put it is what was then the state of the art fire making method?  I =
told him I did not know but I have a great source for such information!


My next question is how do some of you carry your "fire kit"?  =
Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same tin you make it =
in?  And how do you keep it from making a lot of noise?

Thank You all for sharing your knowledge and being so damned =
entertaining
WYnn=20

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My nephew and I were discussing the =
merits and=20
faults of lighting fires with flint and steel and he posed a question as =
to how=20
someone in say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the =
home.  Or=20
another way to put it is what was then the state of the art fire making=20
method?  I told him I did not know but I have a great source for =
such=20
information!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My next question is how do some of you =
carry your=20
"fire kit"?  Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same =
tin you=20
make it in?  And how do you keep it from making a lot of=20
noise?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank You all for sharing your =
knowledge and=20
being so damned entertaining</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WYnn</FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:36:47 -0500
From: "Frank V. Rago" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Wynn,

I pack my char in the same tin I make it in.  Over the char I put a =
piece of buckskin and on top of that I put my steel and flints.  The tin =
is then closed and inserted into a small leather beltpouch made =
especially for the size of the altoid tin.  Also in the pouch I have =
shoved some tinder just in case I can not find it in the field.

FVR


- ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 1:26 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel


  My nephew and I were discussing the merits and faults of lighting =
fires with flint and steel and he posed a question as to how someone in =
say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the home.  Or another =
way to put it is what was then the state of the art fire making method?  =
I told him I did not know but I have a great source for such =
information!

  =20
  My next question is how do some of you carry your "fire kit"?  =
Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same tin you make it =
in?  And how do you keep it from making a lot of noise?
  =20
  Thank You all for sharing your knowledge and being so damned =
entertaining
  WYnn=20

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Wynn,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I pack my char in the same tin I make =
it in. =20
Over the char I put a piece of buckskin and on top of that I put my =
steel and=20
flints.  The tin is then closed and inserted into a small leather =
beltpouch=20
made especially for the size of the altoid tin.  Also in the pouch =
I have=20
shoved some tinder just in case I can not find it in the =
field.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FVR</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Wynn &=20
  Gretchen Ormond</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>[e-mail]</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 01, =
2000 1:26=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Flint and=20
Steel</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My nephew and I were discussing the =
merits and=20
  faults of lighting fires with flint and steel and he posed a question =
as to=20
  how someone in say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the=20
  home.  Or another way to put it is what was then the state of the =
art=20
  fire making method?  I told him I did not know but I have a great =
source=20
  for such information!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My next question is how do some of =
you carry your=20
  "fire kit"?  Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the =
same tin=20
  you make it in?  And how do you keep it from making a lot of=20
  noise?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank You all for sharing your =
knowledge and=20
  being so damned entertaining</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>WYnn</FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 10:59:13 -0800
From: R Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and Steel

> Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
>
> My nephew and I were discussing the merits and faults of lighting
> fires with flint and steel and he posed a question as to how someone
> in say Boston in the 1800-1840 light their fires in the home.  Or
> another way to put it is what was then the state of the art fire
> making method?

Wynn,

I'm not an expert on what the state of the art was but I believe that
back east by that time things had progressed to the point that a form of
matches was being used but I am not certain about the dates. I would
suspect that even so, the common man might not be able to afford such a
luxury. One of the merits of doing your fire making with flint and steel
is surely the difficulty in finding matches if they were available at
all. Kinda the same philosophy as shooting flint locks rather than
having to carry enough caps to last a season.

> My next question is how do some of you carry your "fire kit"?
> Specifically, do you pack your char cloth in the same tin you make it
> in?  And how do you keep it from making a lot of noise?

There are probably as many ways as there are folks doing this but I
don't use char cloth. I use charred punk wood, usually made from rotten
birch but most any deciduous tree wood that is rotten to the point of
being stringy and falling apart will work. It is fairly fragile so is
kept in a separate flat can that may be used to make more. That can is
stored with some form of tinder such as pounded cedar bark or dry grass
or even dry tree moss (I even have been known to use squares of burlap
sacks that supplies come in) along with a piece of flint and a steel are
stored in a greased leather bag. I may also carry a brass oval can with
a burning glass in the lid, a steel, flint and small can of char. The
hard rattley things are wrapped with tinder. Since the tinder has some
padding to it there is no rattling if everything is kept separated.

I also have an emergency kit that is in a small silver box wrapped in a
bee's waxed rag which keeps it quit waterproof if I should go overboard.
It has a small cap tin with char packed with some tinder and the flint
and steel. Makes no noise either. Some where in my kit if there is room
is a waxed linen bag of tinder and candle stubs. It is  usually rolled
up in my bed roll. I usually carry a couple small sticks of pitch pine
too but separate if they are long. No, I do not lack for fire makings!
<G>

This past summer I found that the hanging tree moss on this side of the
Rockies will work for tinder if there is a bit of forest duff ( pine
needles/fir needles/bark chips) mixed in and it is bone dry. Actually
burns like it has been nitrated with salt peter or pitch pine. I'm
curious as to how others do it too so wade in guys! I remain....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

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Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 11:06:53 -0800
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping

The Hudson Bay Company's decision to make the Snake River country a "fur
desert" was based upon political underpinings rather than strictly
business goals. The thought was that the Oregon country was being
divided between America and Canada, and that the Snake River country
would probably go to the Americans, who were at that time working their
way  through and around the Blackfeet country and into the HBC
strongholds along the Snake and Salmon rivers. Clearing the country of
fur would take away any incentive for the Americans to advance through
the country and set up in competition with HBC posts. Plus, since the
writing was on the wall that Canada would lose access to the trapping
grounds in question, they had no incentive not to clear out all of the
resources they could get their hands on. Sounds a lot like "Barbarians
at the Gate" to me.

My question backatcha all is this:
The Blackfoot nation zealously kept the American Fur Company's Upper
Missouri Outfit and the Rocky Mountain Fur Company's brigades from
effectively trapping Blackfeet hunting grounds because they felt that
these parties were taking Blackfeet beaver. They would not trade with
the Americans because they had a long-term trading relationship with the
Canadian firms. If they were buddy-buddy with the HBC how could the HBC
get away with destroying Blackfoot fur country?

B'st'rd

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> Dear Angela,
>     Thanks for the information about the HBC's intention about the attempt to
> create a "fur desert."  I don't know much about the Canadian operations.  I
> guess that HBC wanted to eliminate the competition through destruction of its
> competitor's fur sources?  That seems pretty short-sighted.

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