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hist_text-digest      Thursday, September 9 1999      Volume 01 : Number 367



In this issue:

-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: estimateing horse weights
-áááááá MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses
-áááááá MtMan-List: Government Control, Not Gun Control
-áááááá MtMan-List: Horse years, spurs, etc.
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!
-áááááá MtMan-List: Jim Bridger's Height
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses
-áááááá RE: MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!
-áááááá MtMan-List: REMOVING A BREECH PLUG ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: REMOVING A BREECH PLUG ?
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger's Height
-áááááá MtMan-List: pulling breechplugs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: pulling breechplugs
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses
-áááááá Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:27:57 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: estimateing horse weights

Big John,
  Way back when I was in high school, our Vo-Ag teacher had a tape [ like a
tape measure ] that you could use to determine a horse's weight.  you just
placed the tape around the critter as you described and it would tell you
what the animal weighed.  As I recall one side was for horses and the other
was for cattle.  It was remarkably accurate.  We would check the weight of
an animal with the tape and the cross check it by  putting the animal on a
accurate set of scales and the tape would always be within a few pounds of
the scale weight.  What does this have to do with history you ask ?  I have
been told that mathematically determining the weight of animals goes back
for centuries.  Back in those days scales that would weigh large critters
were few and far between .  Granted  most folks didn't bother they just
bought and sold farm animals by the head.
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Hunt <[e-mail]>
To: AMM discussion <[e-mail]>; trek list
<[e-mail]>; primitive-skills-group
<[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 10:08 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: estimateing horse weights


>
>     Many of you have horses. While going thru a farm catalog, I came
across
>a picture showing how to estimate the weight of a horse. I`m also aware
many
>of you can look at the horse and estimate the weight also. The formula is
as
>follows.
>
>#1. Measure the circumference (heart girth) of the body in inches. The
heart
>girth is just behind the front legs around at top of the shoulders." by the
>picture in book"
>
>#2. Measure the length of the body from the point of the shoulder to point
>of the croup.   Front of shoulders to end of hips, butt area.
>
>#3. Apply the following formula to calculate the weights of the horse.
>       Heart girth x heart girth x length divided by 300  + 50 lbs. =
>weight.
>
>     Doesn`t say if this works on any other animals. Hope this will be of
>use to some of you.
>
>
>John (BIG JOHN) Hunt
>Longhunter
>Mountainman
>southwest  Ohio
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:16:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Grace Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses

The only formula I know of for estimating the weight of horses is:Some
time during the grooming or saddling of said animal he WILL step on
your mocassined foot and stand there for a short period of time in
spite of efforts to move him.  Take the number of obscene names you
call said animal, and multiply by 100.  That will be close enough.  Dog

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: 8 Sep 1999 18:24:53 -0700
From: "Buck" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Government Control, Not Gun Control

> After Recent Waco Revelations, Congress Needs to Hear:
> "Government Control, Not Gun Control"
>
> Gun Owners of America E-Mail/FAX Alert
> 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA 22151
> Phone: [phone] / FAX: [phone]
> http://www.gunowners.org
>
>
> (Wednesday, September 8, 1999) -- If you have been following the
> news lately, you have no doubt heard how the Waco cover up is
> unraveling-- revealing one lie after another:
>
>    * Six years ago, the FBI denied use of incendiary devices the day
> the fire killed 86 Davidians in 1993.  From top to bottom, the
> agency consistently denied having fired anything into the Davidians'
> building that could have possibly started the fatal fire.  But now,
> the FBI has fessed up to two pyrotechnic devices which would be
> capable of sparking a fire.  This may be just the tip of the
> iceberg, as news reports have indicated that other incendiary
> devices were fired as well.
>
>    * The FBI had steadfastly denied that any military were present
> the day the building burned.  But evidence is now mounting that
> Delta Force soldiers were present at Waco with Clinton
> Administration authorization and may have been part of the final
> actions at Waco.
>
>    * The FBI has always maintained that what happened on that final
> day in Waco was "not an assault."  And yet, the FBI must now explain
> who was firing machine guns into the burning building toward the end
> of the raid.  This was first set forth in the film, Waco: the Rules
> of Engagement, and has recently resurfaced again and again in the
> press-- from media like The Washington Post and ABC's Nightline.
>
> Not only has the FBI admitted that some of its previous statements
> were false, there are now some officials who are even admitting to a
> government cover up.  On August 31, the Dallas Morning News reported
> on one such bombshell, citing a Waco prosecutor who has confessed
> that lawyers within the FBI have "long withheld evidence" on what
> happened the day that Waco burned.
>
> Interesting stuff, but what does all this have to do with gun
> control?  Quite a bit, actually.
>
> How can we trust the FBI to really be destroying gun records?  The
> very FBI that has been less than forthright on what happened at
> Waco, is the same FBI that runs background checks on gun owners
> before they can buy a firearm from a gun dealer.  It is also the
> same FBI that promises it will destroy any and all records of a gun
> sale, 90 days after it occurs.
>
> But how can one really be sure they will?  How can one be sure that
> no computer backup remains somewhere in that vast bureaucracy?  Can
> one really believe that our government has no desire to keep such
> personal information on American citizens?  Remember, this is the
> same FBI that maintained files on over 1000 Americans-- whose
> personal information was then turned over to the Clinton White
> House.
>
> Even the honest liberal has to admit one truly can't be sure the
> government will always respect the rights of its citizens.  That is
> the very reason we have a Bill of Rights.  That great document
> assumes that public officials will not always act in the best
> interests of the people.
>
>
> Congress Is Back
>
> Washington is abuzz with the recent Waco revelations.  ABC's
> Nightline focused two entire programs on the subject last week, and
> a Congressional committee has reopened an investigation into the
> matter-- issuing subpoenas to several key government officials.
>
> Now that Washington's collective mind is focused on official abuse,
> it's a good time to remind your Congressmen why the Founding Fathers
> included the Second Amendment in the first place.  And it's is the
> perfect time to demand that they clean up their own house first, and
> leave alone the millions of decent Americans who will never use a
> gun in a crime.
>
> Tell your Congressmen that we need "Government Control, Not Gun
> Control!"
>
>
> ACTION:  Now that your Representatives and Senators are back in the
> nation's capital, please contact them.  Ask them to support
> "government control" instead of gun control, and to vote against the
> juvenile crime bill (S. 254).
>
> You can use the note below to fax or e-mail them, or call them
> toll-free at 1-888-449-3511.  The regular number for the Capitol
> Switchboard is 202-225-3121. See http://www.gunowners.org/h106th.htm
> and http://www.gunowners.org/s106th.htm for fax and e-mail contact
> info.
>
> What's in the final version of the juvenile crime bill?  Well, no
> one knows for sure, as House and Senate conferees have not yet
> reported the bill out of committee.  But it's probably safe to say
> that the final version of the bill will ban the private sale of
> firearms at gun shows, unless buyers submit to background
> registration checks.  To see the other gun control provisions that
> passed as part of the Senate version of the crime bill (S. 254),
> please go to http://www.gunowners.org/106svote.htm on the GOA web
> site.  Any of these gun control provisions could be included in the
> final version of the bill.
>
>
>
> -------- Clip-n-Send --------
>
> Dear
>
> The recent revelations from Waco in the past couple of weeks have
> once again reminded the American public of one elementary truth:
> the government cannot always be trusted.
>
> The very FBI that conducts background checks on law-abiding gun
> owners-- and swears it is deleting these names-- is the same FBI
> that has been caught telling lie after lie about Waco.
>
> From ABC's Nightline to The Washington Post to other media across
> the nation, the FBI's credibility has been severely damaged by the
> latest admissions that pyrotechnic rounds were fired at Waco and
> that Delta forces were present as well.  The FBI confessed to both
> of these facts recently after having denied them for many years.
>
> This agency has had a tough time telling the truth.  Am I supposed
> to believe the FBI is really destroying the information on gun
> owners that is provided to them through the instant registration
> check?
>
> I can't believe that in light of the FBI's perfidy, the Congress is
> actually considering giving that agency more authority over gun
> owners!
>
> I urge you to oppose any juvenile crime bill that comes out of the
> conference committee giving the FBI the power to conduct instant
> registration checks on buyers at gun shows.
>
> Rather than give the FBI more control over decent Americans, we
> should be controlling the FBI.
>
> Please support government control, not gun control.  Please oppose
> all the gun control in S. 254.  Thank you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> **************
> Cheaper Than Dirt donates a percentage of your total order to GOA if
> you use http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/goa.htm to enter their online
> store.
>
> **************
> Did someone else forward this to you? To be certain of getting up to
> date information, please consider subscribing to the GOA E-Mail
> Alert Network directly. There is no cost or obligation, and the
> volume of mail is quite low. To subscribe, simply send a message to
> [e-mail] and include the state in which you live, in
> either the subject or the body. To unsubscribe, reply to any alert
> and ask to be removed.
>

Here we go again.

Later,
Buck Conner

AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
__________________________________

The AMM Journal.
The Tomahawk & Long Rifle
3483 Squires * Conklin, MI  49403
ATTN: Jon Link
Subscription rate for the T&LR is $20 for
a year - qtr issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov.
_____________________________________

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:27:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: [e-mail] (JON MARINETTI)
Subject: MtMan-List: Horse years, spurs, etc.

From an equine magazine about 15 years ago (IIRC):

1 year old horse = 5 year old human
2 year old horse = 10 year old human
3 year old horse = 15 year old human
4 year old horse = 20 year old human
For 5 and up horse years, human  equivalent years =
[horse years minus 4], then multiply that by 3, then add 20.

spurs: used them only as really needed on the animal (e.g., flying lead
changes) and only after he was past the "green-broke" stage.

good memories of good times bring back good people?

Is there any such thing as a Lifetime Associate Membership?

- -----------------------------------
The American Indian: the only surviving descendents of Ephraim and
Manasseh the sons of Joseph - one of the 12 sons of Jacob [Israel].
They are all the Tribe of Joseph, no matter what Sub-Tribe they may be
called.
- -----------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:40:29 -0700
From: "John C. Funk, Jr." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!

Jerry,........Aho,
Would you like the short version or the long one?
John


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!


> John,
>
> I forgot I had saved this message, but wanted to ask you regarding your
> question about spurs a while ago.  Why do you want to use spurs?  Is it
for
> show or to use because a horse needs them.
>
> Yes, I know spurs are for a horse, but the reason I ask is I used spurs
for
> quite a while.  Someone asked why I use them and I told her to get my
horse
> to go through water.  She asked if he still had that problem and I said
no.
> Then she said again, "Why do you use spurs?"  It occurred to me that maybe
> she was right and they were causing another problem.  My horse sometimes
> jumped when I first got on him.  As it turned out it was because he heard
> the spurs and was afraid I was going to use them on him.  When I stopped
> using them, he stopped stepping out when I first got into the saddle.  He
> still goes through water fine though.
>
> If you have a need, great.  If not, I wouldn't use them.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
>
> At 05:03 PM 8/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Good idea, Larry............
> >OK horse folk, I need some info.
> >1.  Anyone got documented designs of "spurs" used by the 'old ones'?  We
> >know they were mounted, for the most part, some with Spanish rigging and
> >therefore probably with Spanish tack.  Many came from the east
.........what
> >design spurs would those folks have used?  Rev. War designs, typical
English
> >stuff.....what?
> >2.  Would spurs have been hand made by the brigade blacksmith?
Therefore,,
> >possibly, a free style design depending upon the users desires?
> >   Give me all you've got....
> >John Funk
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
> >To: mountain lists <[e-mail]>; amm lists
> ><[e-mail]>
> >Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:28 PM
> >Subject: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking !
> >
> >
> >> Ok guys, let's get some serious discussion going.  It's been dead on
here
> >> way too long.  Ya'll don't want to wait till Dennis, Lanney, and I have
to
> >> start something.  <G>
> >> Pendleton
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:20:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Grace Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!

Regarding the use of spurs;  Many of us don't have the luxury of owning
our own horses, and must rent, borrow or steal them for rides.  In this
country [wyoming] most horses have been trained to be ridden with
them.[most, but not all.]  It is a good idea to check with the owner of
the animal as to how it was trained.  Some will rteally jump when
spurred, others can be spurred like crazy to just trot a few paces.  If
a horse was trained with spurs, use 'em otherwise don't.  As for
traditional spurs, the old spanish patterns are quite a bit different
from the new ones out of Mexico, and the quality of work on some of
them is fantastic.  Old military patterns and english patterns are also
good choices, as they were quite common on the frontier. Military
surplus is not a new phenomonon.Dog, Gabe's Hole Brigade

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:25:12 -0500
From: "Austin, Tim" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger's Height

About 10 years ago a group of us from the local museum made a trip to Fort
Bridger, and they allowed us to handle and try on the vest of Mr. Bridger.
I am 5'10" and could not get the vest on, it was to small.  Another of the
participants is 5'7" and he was able to get the vest on, but it was tight.
From that I would guess the height of Jim Bridger to be about 5'6" or less.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:56:54 -0700
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses

And if he rotates in place while standing on your foot, multiply by 50.
Pat Quilter

- -----Original Message-----
From: Grace Schrotter [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 6:16 PM
To: history list
Subject: MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses


The only formula I know of for estimating the weight of horses is:Some
time during the grooming or saddling of said animal he WILL step on
your mocassined foot and stand there for a short period of time in
spite of efforts to move him.  Take the number of obscene names you
call said animal, and multiply by 100.  That will be close enough.  Dog

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 15:00:44 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses

Hell fellers...Don'tcha wanna have fun no more!!!???!!!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 17:38:51 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!

Spurs make a horse go, a quirt can make them stop and go.=A0 Spurs are
bothersome
on the ground, even on boots, on mocs they're tougher to deal with; mocs =
with
spurs on wet rocks =3D ouch.=A0 I found a quirt was all I ever needed, it=
 needn't
be more than a looped strap of leather hanging from your wrist.

The old timers may have worn spurs when traveling, I really doubt it when
trapping or hunting on foot.=A0 A quirt hanging from the wrist doesn't mu=
ch get
in the way.  Ties easy at your side when on the ground.  A quirt doesn't =
get
tangled in a lead rope.  Cheap and easy to replace on the trail if you lo=
se
your fancy one.  A hunk of rope will work.

If you touch the horse with your heels before applying any other correcti=
on
they'll soon start responding to the touch of your heels.=A0 The same app=
lies to
using the reins so slight movement conveys your intentions to the horse.=A0
Spurs
can be used to teach a horse to respond to the touch of your heels if app=
lied
properly from the first, like Jerry has done.

Gigantic spurs are lethal weapons.=A0 Best reserved for war, murder and m=
ayhem;
not to mention likely personal injury.=A0 Early style nubs are probably a=
ll
anyone really needs and will wear better on mocs than any of the heavier
styles.=A0=20

One spur is enough: wear it on the off side and it won't foul rope or spo=
ok
the
horse so much as two.  No hunter or trapper in hostile territory is going
to be
too proud of something that jingle-jangles.  The small noise might remind
cattle the night rider was watching and calm the herd.  Don't know ain't =
a
cowboy.

Spurs, quirts, rope, curb bits, loud cursing, a straight right to the nos=
e and
such require application by a judicious hand, the crueler the tool; the m=
ore
delicate the hand required - most of the time.=A0 They are to teach a
green-broke
horse better or to encourage one to lofty feats in an emergency, like
jumping a
heavy loaded horse over a cattle guard - not recommended.  But if you do =
it's
nice to be able to encourage the effort.  Seemed to work.  A quirt will a=
lso
convince a horse to cross a bear or lion trail as well as water.  No hors=
e is
ever comfortable when they get a whiff of large carnivore.  The best hors=
e can
get real balky.  Getting the pack animals to follow can be even more
difficult.

Some horses are harder to convince than others, like dogs, each requires
something different - it can be a challenge.=A0 There's great pride once =
they
only do what you want, beware, they're likely to do something newly stupi=
d.=A0
Ever go 10' sideways - instantly - because a mouse crossed a rain slick
trail?=20
Don't ever get too relaxed or comfortable on top, be ready for the next w=
orst
thing that could happen -- too often it will.

A grade horse with lots of ingrained bad habits can be made a good mount.=
=A0 I
don't know about fancy trained horses, never had one.=A0 A mule requires =
a more
reasoned encouragement to do your bidding than a horse, a good mule is a =
true
pleasure, a cross mule can stomp everything you own into dust and will.

Spurs are probably a lot more useful when working cattle on the plains an=
d
prairies, they are essential rodeo gear, poke a horse in the side at the =
wrong
time with a sharp rowel and find out.=A0 It can be exciting -- and entert=
aining
- -- sometimes tragic.=A0=20

Keep in mind; all through history - human encounters with horses sometime=
s
result in great tragedy.=A0 They can be a pleasure.=A0 Spurs can aid eith=
er
endeavor.

John...

Never kick a horse in the ass; if you're wearing moccasins!


At 08:03 PM 9/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>John,
>
>I forgot I had saved this message, but wanted to ask you regarding your
>question about spurs a while ago.=A0 Why do you want to use spurs?=A0 Is=
 it for
>show or to use because a horse needs them.=A0=20
>
>Yes, I know spurs are for a horse, but the reason I ask is I used spurs =
for
>quite a while.=A0 Someone asked why I use them and I told her to get my =
horse
>to go through water.=A0 She asked if he still had that problem and I sai=
d no.
>Then she said again, "Why do you use spurs?"=A0 It occurred to me that m=
aybe
>she was right and they were causing another problem.=A0 My horse sometim=
es
>jumped when I first got on him.=A0 As it turned out it was because he he=
ard
>the spurs and was afraid I was going to use them on him.=A0 When I stopp=
ed
>using them, he stopped stepping out when I first got into the saddle.=A0=
 He
>still goes through water fine though.
>
>If you have a need, great.=A0 If not, I wouldn't use them.
>
>Just my opinion.
>
>Best Regards,=20
>
>Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>
>________________________________________________________________________=
___
_____
>
>At 05:03 PM 8/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Good idea, Larry............
>>OK horse folk, I need some info.
>>1.=A0 Anyone got documented designs of "spurs" used by the 'old ones'?=A0=
 We
>>know they were mounted, for the most part, some with Spanish rigging an=
d
>>therefore probably with Spanish tack.=A0 Many came from the east ......=
...what
>>design spurs would those folks have used?=A0 Rev. War designs, typical =
English
>>stuff.....what?
>>2.=A0 Would spurs have been hand made by the brigade blacksmith?=A0 The=
refore,,
>>possibly, a free style design depending upon the users desires?
>>=A0=A0 Give me all you've got....
>>John Funk
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
>>To: mountain lists <[e-mail]>; amm lists
>><[e-mail]>
>>Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:28 PM
>>Subject: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking !
>>
>>
>>> Ok guys, let's get some serious discussion going.=A0 It's been dead o=
n here
>>> way too long.=A0 Ya'll don't want to wait till Dennis, Lanney, and I =
have to
>>> start something.=A0 <G>
>>> Pendleton
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:50:08 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: REMOVING A BREECH PLUG ?

Ok fellers, I have another question.  Having always been fascinated with how
our forefathers maintained their guns while in the wilderness, how did they
pull a breechplug while they were away from the settlements ?  Or did they ?
It seems to me that there had to be times when their guns became totally
soaked from falling in a river or some other calamity.  When this happened,
and if they didn't have a ball puller, what did they do ?  I know there are
numerous references to  "drawing a charge " , but what would they have done
if this was not possible ?  The recent discussion about ramrod accoutrements
brought this to mind since it was discussed that most trade guns were only
cleaned with a tow worm and that was all that was carried.  Could the
breechplug be removed with a couple of good stout sticks and some rawhide
straps ?  I don't know,
Pendleton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 17:00:55 +0000
From: R Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: REMOVING A BREECH PLUG ?

larry pendleton wrote:
>
> Ok fellers, I have another question.  Having always been fascinated with how
> our forefathers maintained their guns while in the wilderness, how did they
> pull a breechplug while they were away from the settlements ?  Or did they ?

Larry,

Good question. My feeling is that unless they were part of a large
expedition carrying the needed tools, they didn't pull breech plugs.
Most of the big expeditions like L&C had a gun smith with them. I have
never tried it but I really don't see how a breech plug could be taken
out without the minimal in the way of iron wrenches and vises even if
they are very crude and not adjustable.

As to what to do if your gun got wet and no way to pull the load or
breech, there are a number of casual mentions of drying out the guns and
such. I think a load could be dried in the barrel sufficiently, near a
fire, to shoot it out. One thing that may have been common place was a
loose load that could be pulled with little trouble. I've heard that
voyageurs carried shot loads in their smooth guns for small game and
easily pulled those loads to drop a ball down if larger game presented
itself. Perhaps that was fairly common practice.

From personal experience I can tell you that a flint lock will withstand
several minutes fully submerged and still be made to shoot with a few
flashes in the pan. On that particular trip so many years ago, the
percussion gun right next to it in the bottom of the bateau never did go
off and the load had to be pulled.

For the solitary fur trapper in black foot country that probably
wouldn't be the normal load but the ball load may still have been a
fairly loose fit. What else is known guys? I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


> It seems to me that there had to be times when their guns became totally
> soaked from falling in a river or some other calamity.  When this happened,
> and if they didn't have a ball puller, what did they do ?  I know there are
> numerous references to  "drawing a charge " , but what would they have done
> if this was not possible ?  The recent discussion about ramrod accoutrements
> brought this to mind since it was discussed that most trade guns were only
> cleaned with a tow worm and that was all that was carried.  Could the
> breechplug be removed with a couple of good stout sticks and some rawhide
> straps ?  I don't know,
> Pendleton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:22:51 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger's Height

How does height equal girth?  The photos in his later years show a thin a=
nd
rangy man who had probably always been thin and rangy.  There's a whole b=
unch
of taller than me people's vests that don't have a chance of fitting arou=
nd
me.  Lanney's vest could cover me and a couple of other guys.  The vest I=
 used
to wear would rip out now if I tried to button it up.  Musculature, bone
structure and fat have more to do with the fit of a vest than height. =20

Do they really have the provenance to prove it was Bridger's vest?  In mu=
seums
sometimes idle supposition becomes rumor which someone later conveys as f=
act,
just like real life.  20 years ago I spent quite a lot of time there and =
don't
remember the vest.  Not saying just don't know and that kind of stuff is =
often
suspect.

The general consensus of what I've read agrees he was around 6' tall.  A =
giant
in his day.  Folks weren't obsessed with their exact height and weight ba=
ck
then, insurance companies hadn't yet published their inane charts.  If fo=
lks
were sucking air in the morning it meant they were still alive.  That was
enough they had immediate concerns to deal with to make sure they were st=
ill
sucking air in the morning.

John...


At 08:25 AM 9/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>About 10 years ago a group of us from the local museum made a trip to Fo=
rt
>Bridger, and they allowed us to handle and try on the vest of Mr. Bridge=
r.
>I am 5'10" and could not get the vest on, it was to small.=A0 Another of=
 the
>participants is 5'7" and he was able to get the vest on, but it was tigh=
t.
>>From that I would guess the height of Jim Bridger to be about 5'6" or l=
ess.
>=20
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 17:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Grace Schrotter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: pulling breechplugs

For one thing, a breechplug is "registered", which simply means that
when properly seated it lines up with the proper flat.  If not seated
to the proper depth, you will never get it to fit your inletting.
Also, after several firings the damn thing is TIGHT!  Without the
proper tools, you risk severly scarring either the barrel or plug.  On
a percussion gun it is a simple matter of pulling the drum and working
a small amount of dry powder into the recess.  Replace the drum, cap
up, and fire into a safe area.  This trick also works if you have
gotten in a hurry and loaded a ball before the powder.  You can work in
enough to at least get the ball out of the barrel.  Sad to say, both
were learned from experience.  I am not sure about flint guns, but I
know some of them have removable touchhole liners, and I suppose you
can do the same with them.  It is easier on gun and shooter than trying
to pull a breechplug without the right tools.  Dog, Gabes Hole Brig.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: 9 Sep 1999 19:08:29 -0700
From: "Buck" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pulling breechplugs

On Thu, 09 September 1999, Grace Schrotter wrote:
> Also, after several firings the damn thing is TIGHT!

As Bill Klesinger has stated Jack Brooks has shown me the same trick with the wooden blocks. When home and tried it on an original pre-1813 Sutherland tradegun that had a questionable area at the breech, it came out as slick as could be. The problem is the odd thread match (barrel to plug)as Bill mentioned, took to a friend with a machine shop to remove a 1/2" off the barrel at the breech, retread the barrel and make a new breech plug for the tang. This turned out to be a lot of work to put an old gun in safe working order. The time involved in matching the odd original threads was more than doing what we did.

I had shot the gun a dozen times then decided to try and pull the breech plug like before, forget it - it was tight with the new threads and matching closer than the original for a tight fit.

The old guns and their matching parts left something to be desired in this area for the originals we both have seen at Brooks, Ron Long's and a few other restorers here in the western states.

Later,
Buck Conner

AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Territory
http://klesinger.com/jbp/swf1.html
__________________________________

The AMM Journal.
The Tomahawk & Long Rifle
3483 Squires * Conklin, MI  49403
ATTN: Jon Link
Subscription rate for the T&LR is $20 for
a year - qtr issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov.
_____________________________________

Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:01:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: estimating the weight of horses

Dog,

Know exactly what you mean.  Had my horse step on my left foot about a month
and a half ago.  Broke my little toe on that foot and it still is fatter
than the next two.  I rode anyway.

Only thing is I guess that means my horse weighs about 8,000 lbs.  He also
acquired a new last name.  It is now Sonny Goddamnit!

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 06:16 PM 9/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>The only formula I know of for estimating the weight of horses is:Some
>time during the grooming or saddling of said animal he WILL step on
>your mocassined foot and stand there for a short period of time in
>spite of efforts to move him.  Take the number of obscene names you
>call said animal, and multiply by 100.  That will be close enough.  Dog
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:06:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!

John,

Give me the long one.

Best Regards,

Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________
At 06:40 PM 9/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Jerry,........Aho,
>Would you like the short version or the long one?
>John
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 1999 8:03 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spurs!
>
>
>> John,
>>
>> I forgot I had saved this message, but wanted to ask you regarding your
>> question about spurs a while ago.  Why do you want to use spurs?  Is it
>for
>> show or to use because a horse needs them.
>>
>> Yes, I know spurs are for a horse, but the reason I ask is I used spurs
>for
>> quite a while.  Someone asked why I use them and I told her to get my
>horse
>> to go through water.  She asked if he still had that problem and I said
>no.
>> Then she said again, "Why do you use spurs?"  It occurred to me that maybe
>> she was right and they were causing another problem.  My horse sometimes
>> jumped when I first got on him.  As it turned out it was because he heard
>> the spurs and was afraid I was going to use them on him.  When I stopped
>> using them, he stopped stepping out when I first got into the saddle.  He
>> still goes through water fine though.
>>
>> If you have a need, great.  If not, I wouldn't use them.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
>>
>>
>____________________________________________________________________________
>____
>>
>> At 05:03 PM 8/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Good idea, Larry............
>> >OK horse folk, I need some info.
>> >1.  Anyone got documented designs of "spurs" used by the 'old ones'?  We
>> >know they were mounted, for the most part, some with Spanish rigging and
>> >therefore probably with Spanish tack.  Many came from the east
>.........what
>> >design spurs would those folks have used?  Rev. War designs, typical
>English
>> >stuff.....what?
>> >2.  Would spurs have been hand made by the brigade blacksmith?
>Therefore,,
>> >possibly, a free style design depending upon the users desires?
>> >   Give me all you've got....
>> >John Funk
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
>> >To: mountain lists <[e-mail]>; amm lists
>> ><[e-mail]>
>> >Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:28 PM
>> >Subject: MtMan-List: Let's Start Talking !
>> >
>> >
>> >> Ok guys, let's get some serious discussion going.  It's been dead on
>here
>> >> way too long.  Ya'll don't want to wait till Dennis, Lanney, and I have
>to
>> >> start something.  <G>
>> >> Pendleton
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------

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