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hist_text-digest        Tuesday, July 13 1999        Volume 01 : Number 326




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:54:29 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals

Laura Rugel Glise wrote:

>                 "I went to the woods because I wanted to live deliberately.  I wanted
> to live deep and suck all the marrow of life!  To put to rout all that
> was not life, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not
> lived."
>
>         Thank you again, for the best, damn time of my life.
>
> Respectfully submitted,
> Laura Glise

Miss Laura,

I presume to speak for all of the Brothers you met when I say, you are most By God
Welcome and welcome back any time. I remain........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:22:24 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: i just got my card!

congratulations terry---now the real learning process begins---work hard
and dont be afraid to ask questions of those who have gone before
you---some of it will be easy for you and some is more dificult---

welcome brother
YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:10:25 -0700 terry l landis <[e-mail]>
writes:
>well i just got my probationary card today so its official yer all
>stuck with me .
>as to how to join the amm ? i just got on this list, made a correct
>kit and got to know some people. if that don't get you invited to a
>doins ASK. thats what i did . of course capt Lathi lives three hours
>away, but if you want something bad enough you'll drive ten! when he
>put me in touch with my local booshway i told him he'd have to take me
>in or i would pester him till he did. i love mountain man rules!
>
>
>PS Dennis thanks for the good info on tempering. i plan to try that
>some day.
>YMHS,
>   "Ephraim"
>  Terry  Landis

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 06:55:23 -0500
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

Obviously just another case of me not knowing what I am talking about.
Thanks for clarifying that for me. For some reason I was under the
assumption that the correct and most accurate way to temper a hardened piece
was to temper from soft, or to first anneal first , and then heat to the
desired color, and then quench in oil or whatever you are using. Could you
please tell me if there is any difference between the final results of
"drawing" a temper like Denice called it, and doing the same thing,(heating
to desired color and quenching in something other than water) to a soft
piece?

Thanks,
Tony Clark

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel


>Warning: Hit the Delete button right now if you are not interested in the
>terminology of tempering steel.
>
>
>I think I got the tempering terminology figured out finally.
>
>In the book "The Art of Blacksmithing"  Alex W. Bealer says:
>
>"Contrary to popular opinion, the term "tempering" is not applied to
>hardening steel, but rather to controlled softening after the steel has
been
>hardened with heat and rapid quenching in a brine bath."
>
>In the book Practical Blacksmithing" Percy W. Blandford says:
>
>"Hardening is done by by heating to reddness and cooling quickly.  This
will
>make tool steel extremely hard, but it will also be brittle.  . . . Some of
>the brittleness- and with it some of the hardness - has to be removed by
>tempering."
>
>Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says
>
>"temper 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating
at
>a lower temperature."
>
>HOWEVER
>
>Webster's also defines temper as "4 a (2) hardening (as steel) by reheating
>and cooling in oil."
>
>Most blacksmiths know that high carbon steel will not be hardened as much
>with an oil quench as with a brine or water quench because oil does not
cool
>as fast as water or brine.  Therefore, Webster's recognizes tempering as
>hardening steel by controlling the quenching rate so the steel is not as
>brittle as it would be if it were hardened by a brine or water quench.
>
>In any case, you don't want to harden your steel to the point of
brittleness
>unless you want to surprise some young'n that he is strong enough to break
>steel with his bare hands.
>
>Are we ready to pronounce the Requiescat in Pace for this subject?
>
>Glenn Darilek
>Iron Burner
>
>
>>northwoods wrote:
>>
>>> Glenn Wrote:
>>>
>>> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it
>>> harder, it makes it softer!<<<
>>>
>>>
>>> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is
>>> annealing, which softens the metal.
>>>
>>> Tony Clark
>>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:46:36 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

Tony,
 Doesn't work that way.. Go to the library, get a book on the subject and read
it.
Sincerely
Dennis

>
> . Could you
> please tell me if there is any difference between the final results of
> "drawing" a temper like Denice called it, and doing the same thing,(heating
> to desired color and quenching in something other than water) to a soft
> piece?
>
> Thanks,
> Tony Clark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
>
> >Warning: Hit the Delete button right now if you are not interested in the
> >terminology of tempering steel.
> >
> >
> >I think I got the tempering terminology figured out finally.
> >
> >In the book "The Art of Blacksmithing"  Alex W. Bealer says:
> >
> >"Contrary to popular opinion, the term "tempering" is not applied to
> >hardening steel, but rather to controlled softening after the steel has
> been
> >hardened with heat and rapid quenching in a brine bath."
> >
> >In the book Practical Blacksmithing" Percy W. Blandford says:
> >
> >"Hardening is done by by heating to reddness and cooling quickly.  This
> will
> >make tool steel extremely hard, but it will also be brittle.  . . . Some of
> >the brittleness- and with it some of the hardness - has to be removed by
> >tempering."
> >
> >Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says
> >
> >"temper 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating
> at
> >a lower temperature."
> >
> >HOWEVER
> >
> >Webster's also defines temper as "4 a (2) hardening (as steel) by reheating
> >and cooling in oil."
> >
> >Most blacksmiths know that high carbon steel will not be hardened as much
> >with an oil quench as with a brine or water quench because oil does not
> cool
> >as fast as water or brine.  Therefore, Webster's recognizes tempering as
> >hardening steel by controlling the quenching rate so the steel is not as
> >brittle as it would be if it were hardened by a brine or water quench.
> >
> >In any case, you don't want to harden your steel to the point of
> brittleness
> >unless you want to surprise some young'n that he is strong enough to break
> >steel with his bare hands.
> >
> >Are we ready to pronounce the Requiescat in Pace for this subject?
> >
> >Glenn Darilek
> >Iron Burner
> >
> >
> >>northwoods wrote:
> >>
> >>> Glenn Wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it
> >>> harder, it makes it softer!<<<
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is
> >>> annealing, which softens the metal.
> >>>
> >>> Tony Clark
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >

- --

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:49:57 -0500
From: Tommy Edge <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

northwoods wrote:

> Glenn Wrote:
>
> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it
> harder, it makes it softer!<<<
>
> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is
> annealing, which softens the metal.
>
> Tony Clark

HARDENING SIMPLE STEELS
All of the really low alloy steels have one feature which make
them virtually foolproof when it comes to cooking them for
hardening. When one of the low alloy steels reaches the critical
temperature where it can be hardened by quenching, it turns non -
magnetic. As the steel heats, check it with a magnet. At a certain
point, the magnet won't stick. That's usually at a temperature
(color) far lower than you would think. Once the magnet won't
stick to the blade, give it a moment more in the fire and then into
the quench it goes. (An extra 50 degrees over the critical
temperature insures better hardening and won't hurt the steel.)

The simple alloys can also be selectively hardened, not with a
fancy temper line, but with a softer back that will make the spine
and tang less susceptible to breakage. All you have to do is take
the blade up to heat very quickly, getting the thin parts along the
edge hot before the thicker spine. You could also just dip the
cutting edge into the oil, allowing the spine to cool more slowly,
not hardening it.

Should you err and get the spine too hot and inadvertently harden
it, you can use a torch to partially anneal the critical areas. I
recommend that all stick tang blades have a softer section where
the tang joins the blade.

When the hot blade hits the oil, you will almost always get some
fire. Don't leave the tang half out of the oil. It is near red hot,
sticking out of the oil and acting like the wick of a candle to start a
fire in the tank. NEVER use a small tank of oil to quench a lot of
blades. Sooner or later, you'll find the flash point of the oil. That's
where it starts burning all by itself, and you won't like that one
little bit.

Forged blades will always have stress than needs to be worked out
before hardening. They should be annealed, preferably several
times before hardening. Some knife makers have had wonderful
results by annealing their blade steel three times before hardening.
It reduces grain size significantly, making a much tougher blade.
Any steel that has been hardened need to be tempered , annealed,
or drawn back or what ever you want to call it. O-1 is oil hardening
if taken up to 63to65 rockwell and not tempered within one hour or
so it might crack , tempering by heating after heat treating will reduce
the
stress caused by heat treating

- --
Thank You
Tommy Edge
1244 CCR 157
Cash Ar. 72421
http://www.nex.net/tedge
I make knives.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:09:38 -0500
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

You were not incorrect, as Webster's points out.  I have no experience
with comparisons of the two processes for controlling the hardness of
steel.  However, by reheating to various lower temperatures, the smith
can temper the steel to any level of softness one desires.  By the
controlled quench method, the only way to vary the amount of tempering
is to have a range of different oils or liquids with various cooling
rates.  If the hardness is acceptable for your purpose with an oil
quench, I think that method would be easier to duplicate every time.

To open this can of worms more, however, there are at least two more
tempering variables to consider.  One is the type of steel (amount of
carbon) and the other is the size (particularly thickness) of the object
being tempered.  I will not get into that other than to say that there
is a way to make a trial temper with the particular type of steel you
are using to get the optimum temper for the particular application.

I imagine that if any other readers have read this far, they must be
convulsing in agony  over this thread, which has progressed beyond the
intent of the hist_text list.  Perhaps if there is any more discussion
of this we should do it privately.

Glen Darilek
Iron Burner

northwoods wrote:
>
> Obviously just another case of me not knowing what I am talking about.
> Thanks for clarifying that for me. For some reason I was under the
> assumption that the correct and most accurate way to temper a hardened piece
> was to temper from soft, or to first anneal first , and then heat to the
> desired color, and then quench in oil or whatever you are using. Could you
> please tell me if there is any difference between the final results of
> "drawing" a temper like Denice called it, and doing the same thing,(heating
> to desired color and quenching in something other than water) to a soft
> piece?
>
> Thanks,
> Tony Clark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
>
> >Warning: Hit the Delete button right now if you are not interested in the
> >terminology of tempering steel.
> >
> >
> >I think I got the tempering terminology figured out finally.
> >
> >In the book "The Art of Blacksmithing"  Alex W. Bealer says:
> >
> >"Contrary to popular opinion, the term "tempering" is not applied to
> >hardening steel, but rather to controlled softening after the steel has
> been
> >hardened with heat and rapid quenching in a brine bath."
> >
> >In the book Practical Blacksmithing" Percy W. Blandford says:
> >
> >"Hardening is done by by heating to reddness and cooling quickly.  This
> will
> >make tool steel extremely hard, but it will also be brittle.  . . . Some of
> >the brittleness- and with it some of the hardness - has to be removed by
> >tempering."
> >
> >Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says
> >
> >"temper 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating
> at
> >a lower temperature."
> >
> >HOWEVER
> >
> >Webster's also defines temper as "4 a (2) hardening (as steel) by reheating
> >and cooling in oil."
> >
> >Most blacksmiths know that high carbon steel will not be hardened as much
> >with an oil quench as with a brine or water quench because oil does not
> cool
> >as fast as water or brine.  Therefore, Webster's recognizes tempering as
> >hardening steel by controlling the quenching rate so the steel is not as
> >brittle as it would be if it were hardened by a brine or water quench.
> >
> >In any case, you don't want to harden your steel to the point of
> brittleness
> >unless you want to surprise some young'n that he is strong enough to break
> >steel with his bare hands.
> >
> >Are we ready to pronounce the Requiescat in Pace for this subject?
> >
> >Glenn Darilek
> >Iron Burner

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:10:22 -0600
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock

Friends,

I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View Caped
Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92).

I have many questions, but one in particular regarding sleeves.  I think I
figured it out that the pattern offers a choice of sleeves, the tapered one
and the straight one.  The cutout pattern in the leather instructions call
for the tapered one, but they seem very small.  I wrapped the sleeve
pattern around my arm and thought it was pretty narrow.  Is there any
problem using the straight sleeve instead?  I haven't cut any leather yet,
not till I get this pattern figured out.

Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions leave
much to be desired.  What's missing is a step by step process of putting
the thing together.  Do they assume too much?  Has anyone had experience
with this particular pattern and could lend me assistance?
TIA

Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******

------------------------------

Date: 13 Jul 1999 07:01:07 -0700
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock

Henry,

Go with the straight sleeve, remember in cold weather you may have several shirts on and you'll need to have room to move around without tearing out seams. In warm weather when working or on extended walks you will sweat and the tapered sleeve will stick to your under garment and again tear seams.

If you look at any of the photo's of old clothes, a large percentage of them are loose fitting, leaving room for additional clothing and breathing room. Most leather garments that fit snug, when wet stick real good to under clothing or just your skin - loose fitting ones are easier to live with and seem to last longer with less seam stress.

Later
Buck Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory

> On Tue, 13 July 1999, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote:
>
> Friends,
>
> I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View Caped
> Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92).
>
> I have many questions, but one in particular regarding sleeves.  I think I
> figured it out that the pattern offers a choice of sleeves, the tapered one
> and the straight one.  The cutout pattern in the leather instructions call
> for the tapered one, but they seem very small.  I wrapped the sleeve
> pattern around my arm and thought it was pretty narrow.  Is there any
> problem using the straight sleeve instead?  I haven't cut any leather yet,
> not till I get this pattern figured out.
>
> Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions leave
> much to be desired.  What's missing is a step by step process of putting
> the thing together.  Do they assume too much?  Has anyone had experience
> with this particular pattern and could lend me assistance?
> TIA
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
>
> ****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
> Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
> [e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> 806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
>               Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******


Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:32:40 -0400
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock

> I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View Caped
> Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92).
>
>
> Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions leave
> much to be desired.
    I attempted to make a pair of breeches from an Eagle View pattern. I
eventually gave up and turned the project over to my wife. After about 8
hours and much cursing, my wife, her mother and aunt finally had a finished
garment. Her aunt, who sews professionally, pronounced the pattern maker "a
sick individual". Just on the principle of it, she made me another pair
loosely based on the pattern to show how it is supposed to work. Bottom
line, if you are not an experienced clothing maker, Eagle View patterns are
pretty crude.
    Kirk
    Silverdale PA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:52:57 -0700
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Northwest Trade Gun Kit?

Okay Folks,
I looked on the innernept and could not find a Trade Gun kit anywhere.  Any
clues for the search to continue?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:00:41 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Northwest Trade Gun Kit?

> I looked on the innernept and could not find a Trade Gun kit anywhere.  Any
>  clues for the search to continue?


Rick,

http://oldfoxtraders.com

Click on the link that says suppliers.  I have almost everyone in the
business  listed there.

Dave Kanger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:22:51 -0600
From: "Sickler, Louis L" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed

Howdy Rick,

This may not be fur trade, per se, but sounds like you are going to be near
Fairplay, CO, in the famed Bayou Salade. This is the site of what is called
the "Old South Park City Museum". It is a recreated old west Main Street:
houses, hotels, pharmacy, doctor & dentist office, etc.They went around to
all the old mining settlements, etc here in CO where buildings still existed
and moved them, intact, to this location. We always have a great time
visiting, never had any complaints from out-of-towners. Great local history,
and one of the best arrowhead displays I've ever seen.

What's your plans for Denver ?? If'n you've a mind to palaver a bit over a
cool one, let me know off-line & I'll send you my phone number. Always time
for a brother.

Red Coyote
Colorado Territory

> -----Original Message-----
> From:    [e-mail] [SMTP:[e-mail]]
> Sent:    Monday, July 12, 1999 6:57 PM
> To:    [e-mail]
> Subject:    MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed
>
> Need your help guys.   We're headed for Colorado this Thursday night
> (7/15).
> Will be doing a big circle of it,  with scheduled stops in Colorado
> Springs,
> Pueblo, Salida, Aspen,  Rocky Mtn. National Park,  Estes Park and Denver.
>
> We have already scheduled a day at Bent's Fort.
>
> Anyone know of any other historically interesting places I should hit
> along
> the
> path we are taking?   Any info would be helpful.
>
> Thanks!
> Rick Petzoldt
> Traphand
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:48:44 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RE: Northwest Trade Gun Kit?

try track of the wolf

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:09:11 -0500
From: Mike Rock <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: knives and files

Sorry fellas, I am typing that article in, but am behind.  It will add
considerably to the thread, so some of you might want to dump it.
Pretty good reading, but will be a few days yet.

Rock

I thought Ursa was bear in Latin.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:29:57 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock

Henry
I have no input on your question.  I just wanted to say that it is good =
to see your name on my screen again.  Where you been?
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Henry B. Crawford <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 9:10 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock


> Friends,
>=20
> I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View =
Caped
> Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92).
>=20
> I have many questions, but one in particular regarding sleeves.  I =
think I
> figured it out that the pattern offers a choice of sleeves, the =
tapered one
> and the straight one.  The cutout pattern in the leather instructions =
call
> for the tapered one, but they seem very small.  I wrapped the sleeve
> pattern around my arm and thought it was pretty narrow.  Is there any
> problem using the straight sleeve instead?  I haven't cut any leather =
yet,
> not till I get this pattern figured out.
>=20
> Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions =
leave
> much to be desired.  What's missing is a step by step process of =
putting
> the thing together.  Do they assume too much?  Has anyone had =
experience
> with this particular pattern and could lend me assistance?
> TIA
>=20
> Cheers,
> HBC
>=20
> ****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford Box 43191
> Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University
> [e-mail] Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> 806/742-2442 FAX [phone]
>               Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******
>=20
>=20
>=20

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:00:10 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock

Yeah Henry, I guess the rumors of you going under were greatly exagerated.
Good to hear from you.
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock


Henry
I have no input on your question.  I just wanted to say that it is good to
see your name on my screen again.  Where you been?
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Henry B. Crawford <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 9:10 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Eagle's View caped woodsman's frock


> Friends,
>
> I am making an elkskin/deerskin hunting frock using the Eagle's View Caped
> Woodsman's frock pattern (no. 92).
>
> I have many questions, but one in particular regarding sleeves.  I think I
> figured it out that the pattern offers a choice of sleeves, the tapered
one
> and the straight one.  The cutout pattern in the leather instructions call
> for the tapered one, but they seem very small.  I wrapped the sleeve
> pattern around my arm and thought it was pretty narrow.  Is there any
> problem using the straight sleeve instead?  I haven't cut any leather yet,
> not till I get this pattern figured out.
>
> Eagle's view patterns are supposed to be simple, but the directions leave
> much to be desired.  What's missing is a step by step process of putting
> the thing together.  Do they assume too much?  Has anyone had experience
> with this particular pattern and could lend me assistance?
> TIA
>
> Cheers,
> HBC
>
> ****************************************
> Henry B. Crawford Box 43191
> Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University
> [e-mail] Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
> 806/742-2442 FAX [phone]
>               Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
> ******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:09:25 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files

>
>
> I thought Ursa was bear in Latin.

Rock,

It is but you got to tell them something or they just keep asking. <G>
Yea, your rigorously right. It is Ursa in Latin. I believe that Ephraim
was a name given to Grizzlies by some Mt. Men as in "Old Ephraim" but
right off the top of my head I don't know where the original name comes
from or remember the association that it had with big bears but I think it
is a biblical name. Sounds Hebrew to my ear. Perhaps some one else would
care to elaborate for Tassee. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:21:20 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files

And what self-respecting mtn man wants to be hung with the moniker of
"Ursala"?<BG>

Sorry, couldn't help myself....

D


Roger Lahti wrote:

> >
> >
> > I thought Ursa was bear in Latin.
>
> Rock,
>
> It is but you got to tell them something or they just keep asking. <G>
> Yea, your rigorously right. It is Ursa in Latin. I believe that Ephraim
> was a name given to Grizzlies by some Mt. Men as in "Old Ephraim" but
> right off the top of my head I don't know where the original name comes
> from or remember the association that it had with big bears but I think it
> is a biblical name. Sounds Hebrew to my ear. Perhaps some one else would
> care to elaborate for Tassee. I remain......
>
> YMOS
> Capt. Lahti'

- --

"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:58:28 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: knives and files

Dennis Miles wrote:

> And what self-respecting mtn man wants to be hung with the moniker of
> "Ursala"?<BG>
>
> Sorry, couldn't help myself....

Dennis,

Well, old son, I reckon I didn't expect you would be able to resist. There was
an old Mt. Man over in the Selway back in '43' or was it '53', can't remember
for sure which, what had him a she bear he'd raise up from a cub. Killed her
mammy, he did, and she was one of the last Grizzlies left in them hills by that
time.

Well he raised up that cub and taught her tricks and such and fed her real good
on Selway elk and white tail deer. He never did have much truck with the few
whites that were around, mostly HBC employees anyway. So he got to thinking of
his cub as being a human like him. Well, one thing led to another and they
eventually fell in love. He took his 'sweety bear' and himself down to Lapway
and had Dr. Spaulding marry the happy couple. The good Dr. was reluctant but
this old fella wasn't to be denied and so the ceremony was duly performed. When
the Dr. got to the part where he asks the bride "Do you (insert brides name
here) take this man to be your lawfully wedded husband until death, etc." the
Dr. turned to the groom and said "Why, I don't believe I caught the Ladies
name". Our Mt. Man said with pride " Well, good sir, I call her Ursula. Got a
fancy ring to it don'tcha reckon?" The Dr. allowed as how it did and with that
information, finished the wedding.

The wedding party feasted on smoked and fresh salmon from the Clearwater River
and all present danced with the "Beautiful Bear Bride"  and the proud new
husband well into the night. They went back to their mountains the next morning
and were rarely seen again. They did raise a family of strapping boys and
beautiful girls. The children did come out of the mountains and spread across
the Pacific NW. I would venture to say that they still walk amongst us today. I
have my suspicions about the lineage of "Ephraim Moose Moose Muskrat yum yum"
and his "Party Boshway" DP! <BG>I remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
> D
>
> Roger Lahti wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > > I thought Ursa was bear in Latin.
> >
> > Rock,
> >
> > It is but you got to tell them something or they just keep asking. <G>
> > Yea, your rigorously right. It is Ursa in Latin. I believe that Ephraim
> > was a name given to Grizzlies by some Mt. Men as in "Old Ephraim" but
> > right off the top of my head I don't know where the original name comes
> > from or remember the association that it had with big bears but I think it
> > is a biblical name. Sounds Hebrew to my ear. Perhaps some one else would
> > care to elaborate for Tassee. I remain......
> >
> > YMOS
> > Capt. Lahti'
>
> --
>
> "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
>         DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
>  Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
>    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 1956 04:07:28 +0000
From: Laura Rugel Glise <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Osos, grande

Captain:

Couldn't help but respond to your tale.

There is a book, "Daughters of Copper Woman," in which a bear falls in
love with a beautiful woman (an event not uncommon in mythology).  The
bear is embarrassed by his affection for the human, but eventually,
overcome with passion, declares his love for her.

The woman, confronted with her grizzly suitor, is not shocked or
repulsed, and remarks, "We are all simply a bunch of bones in a sack of
flesh."  Ain't it the truth.

Looking forward to seeing you in the near future on the northwest coast.

Laura Glise
Atlanta, Georgia but heading for Washington State

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #326
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