> >Files in the last twenty years have been manufactured from materials
> >that differ from the older files. Jim Kelly, metallurgist at Rolled
>
> >if anyone wants it, or if the demand is there, I can copy it and mail
> >out. It runs about six pages, and is a bit much for the list.
>
> Would like to get a copy of that article .
Thanks
J.D. <jdearing@theriver.net>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:14:27 -0500
From: bvannoy <bvannoy@mciworld.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Thank you(s)
To all involved with the Eagle Scout Badge:
In case my husband (Chases Hawks) didn't say so himself, here is a
heartfelt "thank you right back" for all the heartwarming letters we
received from Barney's family and relatives. It was wonderful to be
included; glad to have been of help. If C.H. were to meet any of you in
person, I'm sure he'd just say "Aw shucks", or something the equivalant
thereof.
Yours Truly, Badger Woman
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 23:46:08 -0500
From: John Dearing <jdearing@mail.theriver.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: strikers
> >Any reason why they're not case hardened [i.e., carburized] to 10-20
> >thousandths ? Not possible with primitive methods ?
> >Striker thickness (or lack of sufficient material) prevents it ?
>
The longer the striker, or other part is heated in the case hardening compound,
the deeper the case. In the old days some smiths made their own blister steel
by "cooking" wrought iron in charred bone meal and charred leather in a sealed
metal box until the case hardening penetrated to the center of the iron billet.
Thin case hardening, anything less than .010-.015, is plain laziness on the part
of the person doing the work, the result of someone who doesn't know what they
are doing, or the product of a cheap manufacturer.
J.D.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:16:37 -0500
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
The best sparks come from the highest carbon steel that is hardened to the
maximum. However, this combination also results in the maximum number of
broken steels. Hardening high carbon steel by heating to a bright red and
then water quenching makes the steel almost as brittleness as glass.
Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it harder,
it makes it softer! Tempering steel is removing some of the hardness to
make the steel less brittle. So the smith has to come up with a compromise
of the best tradeoff of hardness with acceptable strength of the steel.
There are many recipes for this, and I make steels with a very hard striking
face, but the inside edge of the steel is tempered for strength.
Also, I have observed the comedy of many novices striking the steel with the
flint, repeating very quickly. When they don't get many sparks, they speed
up the process. It's more important to get the right force and angle not
how many times you repeat. The winners of fire starting competitions rarely
hit the steel (or flint) more than a couple of times.
Finally, to completely beat this subject to death, be mindful of the
proximity of your knuckles when you strike that sharp flint. I just counted
four scars on the middle knuckles of my left hand, which I suspect were
flint-induced.
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
- ---Original Message-----
From: Munroe Crutchley <munroe@rvi.net>
To: Mountain Man List <hist_text@xmission.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:48 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
>I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint
>and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been
>trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a
>shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I
>can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing it
>the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the
>edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can
>find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In
>between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the
>correct way!
>
>Munroe Crutchley
>Grants Pass, OR
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:36:05 -0500
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
The best sparks come from the highest carbon steel that is hardened to the
maximum. However, this combination also results in the maximum number of
broken steels. Hardening high carbon steel by heating to orange and
then water quenching makes the steel almost as brittleness as glass.
Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it harder,
it makes it softer! Tempering steel is removing some of the hardness to
make the steel less brittle. So the smith must compromise hardness with
acceptable strength of the steel. There are many recipes for this, and I
make steels with a very hard striking face, but the inside edge of the steel
is tempered for strength.
Case hardening (carburizing) to any depth is a daunting proposition. The
steel
is packed in an air-tight container packed with a mixture of types of
carbon.
Then the container must be maintained at a red-hot or hotter temperature
for hours. Maybe three hours at orange temperature or 6 to 12 hours at
red hot will result in maybe a 1/32 inch skin of high carbon steel. When
hardened, this would result in a good combination of hardness and strength,
but the time, expense, and effort would b ehigh. With the relatively low
cost
of high carbon steels, most smiths forego case hardening except in the
cases where a very thin layer will suffice.
Also, I have observed the comedy of many novices striking the steel with the
flint, repeating very quickly. When they don't get many sparks, they speed
up the process. It's more important to get the right force and angle, not
how many times you repeat. The winners of fire starting competitions rarely
hit the steel (or flint) more than a couple of times.
Finally, to completely beat this subject to death, be mindful of the
proximity of your knuckles when you strike that sharp flint. I just counted
four scars on the middle knuckles of my left hand, which I suspect were
flint-induced.
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
- ---Original Message-----
From: Munroe Crutchley <munroe@rvi.net>
To: Mountain Man List <hist_text@xmission.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 3:48 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
>I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint
>and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been
>trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a
>shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I
>can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing it
>the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the
>edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can
>find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In
>between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the
>correct way!
>
>Munroe Crutchley
>Grants Pass, OR
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 11 Jul 1999 09:40:47 -0700
From: <turtle@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Black Bear Confrontation
Lanney,
I was talking to some old friends in northern Colorado, and they are having the same problem with cougars coming into building developements, small farms, etc. Then you go a hundred miles south and the same story is happening there but with the black bear. Was also told the mule deer seem to be having problems for the last couple of years.
We had similar problems like this in this area around State College, PA a dozen years ago with cats, bears and white tails, wonder if this is a cycle thing - like with rabbits and squirrels !!
Turtle.
___________________________________________
> On Fri, 09 July 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote:
>
> The encounter with that bear probably aged that fellow plumb to social security age. Jee-Zus!!
> Cougars are making a comeback where they have been absent for decades. A friend of mine shot a big one in Bosque county, Texas about 4 years ago. Bosque county is only two counties south of Ft Worth and is the adjacent county to mine. The cat was taken maybe 60 miles southwest of a metropolitian area of 4 million. A medium sized cougar (presumably a released or escaped pet) was captured in the alley about two blocks from my house about 5 years ago. The neighbors said that they couldn't kick their dogs out of the house at night for weeks before the dog pound guys caught it. Above and beyond the call of duty if you ask me.
> However, the most dangereous critters in most woods are the ones that walk on two legs. Be careful...always.
> YMOS
> Lanney Ratcliff
Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:56:35 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <hawknest4@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:16:37 -0500 "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
writes:
> The winners of fire starting competitions rarely hit the steel (or
flint) more than a >couple of times.
Iron Burner
from your posting i can see that you have made several fire strikers and
know what it takes---totally agree with you and you made a lot of good
points ---especially in the technique thing---very important ---One
strike and one blow and you got it all together---if a person practices
this their profeciency in fire building increses---suggest the people
that have been following this string go to the arcives and pull out the
fire making posting that gives the total picture on all the process and
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Black Bear Confrontation
turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
>
> Lanney,
> I was talking to some old friends in northern Colorado, and they are having the same problem with cougars coming into building developements, small farms, etc. Then you go a hundred miles south and the same story is happening there but with the black bear. Was also told the mule deer seem to be having problems for the last couple of years.
>
> We had similar problems like this in this area around State College, PA a dozen years ago with cats, bears and white tails, wonder if this is a cycle thing - like with rabbits and squirrels !!
Here, it's 'yotes! They're getting more bold, and kill and drag off pets out of
yards. The most damage is done with the white tail, as they kill a LOT of fawns
soon after birth.
Fred
- --
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:45:36 -0500
From: "northwoods" <northwoods@ez-net.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
Glenn Wrote:
>>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it
harder, it makes it softer!<<<
Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is
annealing, which softens the metal.
Tony Clark
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:37:32 -0400
From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
Okay, I finally snapped.....First, folks, as interesting as this thread
and the differing opinions are, starting a fire with flint, steel & and
some sort of char is not brain surgery. Go to you local smith, buy a good
steel, get a nice, sharp piece of flint, char up some punk and get to
firemakin'... Don't analyze it to death and try to suck all the fun outta
it.
And tempering DOES soften steel. A knife that comes out of the quench is
glass hard and will shatter or snap at the slightest provocation. You use
a heat source, (I use a wrought iron block heated until it is near white)
and set the metal on it and "draw a temper" The colors range from a
light straw (razor hard) to a dark blue (spring soft). The secret is
knowing how to do it and to reading the colors.
Tony is right that annealing softens metal, but that is used after
forging to be able to file a knife or whatever into a final shape.
I do not temper my fire steels at all. They temper themselves from the
heat after the quench. I take them out of the quench when they are still
damned hot and let them cool. Just a good oil quench and a resulting
steel that will last you a lifetime, if you don't lose it... The one I
carry has been with me for near 15 yrs now. And it works as good as it
did the day I made it.
Or better yet, learn to make and use a fire-bow and we won't have to
worry about flint, steel OR char!!<G>
Thanks
Dennis Miles
AMM #1622 Hiveranno.
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
northwoods wrote:
> Glenn Wrote:
>
> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it
> harder, it makes it softer!<<<
>
>
>
>
> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is
> annealing, which softens the metal.
>
> Tony Clark
- --
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:29:48 -0700
From: "larry pendleton" <yrrw@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
Dennis,
You go Brother. I was just about to say my two cents worth, but you
pretty much said it all. YEAH, WHAT HE SAID !
I will add this. There are a lot of fire steels in the rendezvous trade
tents that won't make good trotline weights. Get a good one. A decent
flint and practice practice practice.
That's all I have to say about that.
Pendleton
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Monday, July 12, 1999 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
>Okay, I finally snapped.....First, folks, as interesting as this thread
>and the differing opinions are, starting a fire with flint, steel & and
>some sort of char is not brain surgery. Go to you local smith, buy a good
>steel, get a nice, sharp piece of flint, char up some punk and get to
>firemakin'... Don't analyze it to death and try to suck all the fun outta
>it.
> And tempering DOES soften steel. A knife that comes out of the quench is
>glass hard and will shatter or snap at the slightest provocation. You use
>a heat source, (I use a wrought iron block heated until it is near white)
>and set the metal on it and "draw a temper" The colors range from a
>light straw (razor hard) to a dark blue (spring soft). The secret is
>knowing how to do it and to reading the colors.
>Tony is right that annealing softens metal, but that is used after
>forging to be able to file a knife or whatever into a final shape.
>
>I do not temper my fire steels at all. They temper themselves from the
>heat after the quench. I take them out of the quench when they are still
>damned hot and let them cool. Just a good oil quench and a resulting
>steel that will last you a lifetime, if you don't lose it... The one I
>carry has been with me for near 15 yrs now. And it works as good as it
>did the day I made it.
>
>Or better yet, learn to make and use a fire-bow and we won't have to
>worry about flint, steel OR char!!<G>
>
>Thanks
>Dennis Miles
>AMM #1622 Hiveranno.
>
>"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
> DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
> Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
> http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
>
>northwoods wrote:
>
>> Glenn Wrote:
>>
>> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it
>> harder, it makes it softer!<<<
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is
>> annealing, which softens the metal.
>>
>> Tony Clark
>
>--
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:57:13 EDT
From: Traphand@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed
Need your help guys. We're headed for Colorado this Thursday night (7/15).
Will be doing a big circle of it, with scheduled stops in Colorado Springs,
Pueblo, Salida, Aspen, Rocky Mtn. National Park, Estes Park and Denver.
We have already scheduled a day at Bent's Fort.
Anyone know of any other historically interesting places I should hit along
the
path we are taking? Any info would be helpful.
Thanks!
Rick Petzoldt
Traphand
Traphand@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:30:02 -0500
From: "Glenn Darilek" <llsi@texas.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
Warning: Hit the Delete button right now if you are not interested in the
terminology of tempering steel.
I think I got the tempering terminology figured out finally.
In the book "The Art of Blacksmithing" Alex W. Bealer says:
"Contrary to popular opinion, the term "tempering" is not applied to
hardening steel, but rather to controlled softening after the steel has been
hardened with heat and rapid quenching in a brine bath."
In the book Practical Blacksmithing" Percy W. Blandford says:
"Hardening is done by by heating to reddness and cooling quickly. This will
make tool steel extremely hard, but it will also be brittle. . . . Some of
the brittleness- and with it some of the hardness - has to be removed by
tempering."
Mirriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary says
"temper 4 a (1) : to soften (as hardened steel or cast iron) by reheating at
a lower temperature."
HOWEVER
Webster's also defines temper as "4 a (2) hardening (as steel) by reheating
and cooling in oil."
Most blacksmiths know that high carbon steel will not be hardened as much
with an oil quench as with a brine or water quench because oil does not cool
as fast as water or brine. Therefore, Webster's recognizes tempering as
hardening steel by controlling the quenching rate so the steel is not as
brittle as it would be if it were hardened by a brine or water quench.
In any case, you don't want to harden your steel to the point of brittleness
unless you want to surprise some young'n that he is strong enough to break
steel with his bare hands.
Are we ready to pronounce the Requiescat in Pace for this subject?
Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner
>northwoods wrote:
>
>> Glenn Wrote:
>>
>> >>>Despite the common misconception, tempering steel does not make it
>> harder, it makes it softer!<<<
>>
>>
>> Tempering steel does make it harder. What you may be referring to is
>> annealing, which softens the metal.
>>
>> Tony Clark
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:53:02 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <rat@htcomp.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed
If you can fit Delta into your trip you can tour Ft Uncompagre. It is a =
magnificent reproduction of an early trading fort. Dan Duder (I presume =
he is still there) will give you a very good tour. Delta is north of =
Montrose on the western side of the state and may be out of your loop, =
but my trip there was well worth the trouble in 1997.
Lanney Ratcliff
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: <Traphand@aol.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 7:57 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Colorado Info Needed
> Need your help guys. We're headed for Colorado this Thursday night =
(7/15).
> Will be doing a big circle of it, with scheduled stops in Colorado =
Springs,=20
> Pueblo, Salida, Aspen, Rocky Mtn. National Park, Estes Park and =
Denver.
>=20
> We have already scheduled a day at Bent's Fort.
>=20
> Anyone know of any other historically interesting places I should hit =
along=20
> the=20
> path we are taking? Any info would be helpful.
>=20
> Thanks!
> Rick Petzoldt
> Traphand
> Traphand@aol.com
>=20
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:10:25 -0700
From: terry l landis <tllandis@juno.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: i just got my card!
well i just got my probationary card today so its official yer all stuck
with me .
as to how to join the amm ? i just got on this list, made a correct kit
and got to know some people. if that don't get you invited to a doins
ASK. thats what i did . of course capt Lathi lives three hours away, but
if you want something bad enough you'll drive ten! when he put me in
touch with my local booshway i told him he'd have to take me in or i
would pester him till he did. i love mountain man rules!
PS Dennis thanks for the good info on tempering. i plan to try that some
day.
YMHS,
"Ephraim"
Terry Landis
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:47:29 -0700
From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moose-Moose and Ephraim????
Barbara Smith wrote:
> Terry and Roger,
>
> Iffen it's not tellin' any deep dark man secrets, why you callin' Terry
> Moose-Moose? And what's the deal with "Ephraim?" That latin for Bear?
Tassee,
Yup, that be latin for Bear. You heard that story, but his name really
should be "Ephraim-Moose! Moose!-Muskrat yum yum. But that is all too long
even if it is discriptive. So we will just call him "Ephraim" or "YumYum"
for short. <BG> I remain simply...........
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
------------------------------
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