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hist_text-digest        Thursday, July 8 1999        Volume 01 : Number 323




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:02:03 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

Wrong.  It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two are
struck together.  It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the fire
steel, shaved off by the rock.  However, not all rocks and steel will spark
together.  That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we don't
necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel.  Only high carbon
steel will spark, to my knowledge.  However, several, different kinds of rock
will create a spark, when struck with the right steel.   One is no good
without the other.  So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that much
detail.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:07:13 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

Roy
What is the price guide for?  Send it along if it isn't painful.
Lanney Ratcliff
[e-mail]
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roy Parker <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>; <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel




On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700, you wrote:

>I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of =
flint
>and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have =
been
>trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I =
get a
>shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. =
I
>can't seem to tell what's making the difference; seems like I am doing =
it
>the same each time. Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out =
the
>edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I =
can
>find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In
>between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the
>correct way!
>
>Munroe Crutchley
>Grants Pass, OR
>
>
Never have had time to finish this darn thing....  This is from March,
1998......just wanted to show Dean I still lurk a lot around here, but
don't post much any more.  BTW, if anyone wants the pics of the New
Orleans price guide from 1831, I finally figured out how to send them
in a painless fashion.

Several people have asked for this information recently.  The
following is a reprint of an article I posted in early October.  The
finished article was lost in a hard disk crash around Thanksgiving,
and I have not recreated it.  This is based on several years of
experience, and an exchange on the Usenet group soc.history.living
with several folks who also frequent this mailing list.  Scott, see if
you can find your own words in this!

I'm sorry, but the article is NOT complete.  If you've never made a
flint and steel fire before, here's the gist of it.  The following is
a DRAFT copy.  The actual article is only about half done.  I'm
retaining the copyright for this article, since I hope to have it
published for profit and make millions of dollars when Steven
Spielberg turns this into a major movie..   The final article had all
the contributors listed.  I don't have them here, but pulled all the
1996-1997 exchanges off of Deja News by doing a search for "fire
starting".  When I rewrite this, full credit to all contributors will
be given, especially for the info on charwood.


The article needs a lot of wordsmithing.  I have not done much except
spell check it, so it is obviously not ready to go yet. =20
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- ----------------------------
There's a lot of ways to start fires.  I'm going to cover techniques
I've used off and on over the last 19 years.  I'll also cover a few
techniques that I do NOT have a lot of experience with, but other
folks do  I'll be straight with you when I report on something someone
else recommends, but I've only experimented with.  If I don't like the
method, I'll tell you, but understand it may be because I don't have
the technique down due to enough experimentation.  Try it yourself. =20

We're going to cover charcloth making, striker selection, flint
selection, proper tinder and then tie all this together into proper
flint and steel firestarting.  Char is usually made from cloth, but
several people I corresponded with have used different natural
materials.  This will be covered later on.  We'll also cover how to
select and use a firebow, how to use your shootin' iron as a fire
starter, char wood making and use, the burning lens (aka magnifying
glass),  and we'll end it with what I diplomatically call "shortcut"
(others may call it cheating) techniques some scum-sucking weasles use
to get an edge on the competition, just so you have an idea of what to
look out for.

Charcloth Making

Forget all the stuff they told you in Boy Scouts about using dryer
lint, picking up a rock and striking sparks, or rubbing two sticks
together.  It's hogwash.  If you follow the recommendations in this
article, make a batch or two of charcloth so you can see what is
"good" versus "bad" select a flint as described, and have a good
striker, you'll have flame in less than 15 seconds almost every time
you try.  My personal best at fire starting is 8.1 seconds, and that
took third place.=20

Char is important because you need some material that will catch the
sparks from your striker.  You can have a marvelous striker and flint,
and chuck sparks into dryer lint until the cows come home.  And they
come home about the time you have a spark catch in the dryer lint. =20

The reason you char cloth is to essentially turn it into pure carbon,
kinda like a super charcoal briquette.  You want a material that chars
well, and has a lot of surface roughness to hold the spark from the
striker until it can ignite the cloth.  Dryer lint, et. al, has a much
higher combustion temperature to keep a coal glowing than does char
cloth.  That's why it is so hard to start a fire this way.  Good char
cloth will grab a spark as soon as it hits.

Start with 100 percent cotton or linen fabric.  Make absolutely sure
there are no synthetics.  These will melt and burn and leave a
fire-proof coating over what remains of the fabric.  It also makes an
awful mess of your char tin.  Wool has its own fire retardant.  Lore
has it that you can't make char cloth out of wool, and I always
believed it until I sat down to write these lines.  I've always
accepted that wool won't work, but you know, I have never tired it.  I
will have to take a shot at it next time I make up a batch of char.

I've heard that using cloth with patterns makes inferior char cloth.
In my experience, it doesn't seem to matter.  New fabric such as left
overs from shirt making need to be washed several times before you
char them.  Most material like this contains a something called a
sizing, which is fine clay impregnated in the cloth to make it
smoother and easier to cut for patterns.  You can make char cloth from
it, but the sizing leaves a bit more ash in the tin, and sometimes
keeps a spark for catching as it seems to have to burn through the
sizing first.  Pure canvas from the sewing store works pretty good
after being well washed.  Flannel works well too if you make sure you
do NOT get the flame-retardant kind.  All of these things will work.

To make char cloth you can't put out without water, you have to use a
special type of cloth.  Forget about blue jeans, cotton scraps,
flannel,  canvas, etc. The best stuff I have ever found for char cloth
is called Monk's Cloth (available at almost any sewing center, at
least here in Texas).  It has 5-9 threads in the warp and the woof (?)
(these are sewing terms I really don't understand, but it means the
top layer weaves in and out of the bottom layer {going sideways of
course} kinda like the plastic webbing you have on your aluminum
framed lawn chairs, except this is all cotton, and is a lot thinner
weave.  Monks cloth looks a lot like a coarser weave of the gauze
you'd find in a first aid kit.  For those of you who are wondering,
I've tried using gauze for char also.  It crumbles too easily compared
to the Monk's cloth for my taste, but catches a spark immediately.  If
I ever get access to a scanner, I'll upload a picture to the web.

How do you make char cloth? Easy.  Get some 100% linen or cotton, or
if you've been paying attention, get some Monk's cloth ( wash it once
or twice first-a yard of this stuff will start hundreds of fires), cut
it up into about inch and a half squares, no larger.  When you have a
decent handful of pieces, put them in your char tin.  I fill my tin
(one of the old, large shoe polish tins) so that the pile sticks out
about three-eighths of an inch before putting the lid on.  This
compresses the cloth a little, but I've never noticed a problem .  If
you really stuff the tin full, you'll find a lot of the material in
the center is not properly charred.  A little compression is ok, a lot
is bad.

A char tin is nothing more than a small metal can that has a tight
fitting  metal lid.  A shoe polish tin or a pint paint can works
great.  The pint paint can doubles as a container when making char
wood.  We'll cover that later.  Clean out all residue from the
previous inhabitant of the can before your start.  The real secret is
to have a very tight fitting lid, and to close it down tight after you
put in the cloth.  Next, take a small nail, about a one inch finishing
nail and poke a hole in the lid. =20

Now, find a small twig and sharpen it until it plugs the hole you just
punched in the top as tight as can be.  Set the twig aside, as you
won't need it for a while.  Now toss the can, lid up on the fire.
I've tried a bunch of different fires.  Some work and some don't and I
don't know why.  Campfires seem to make the best char cloth.  Set it
on the edge of the coals, and plan 2-5 minutes a side for cooking.
Good charcoal fires work about the same.  I've tried this numerous
times on my propane grill in the backyard, and on my coal forge, at
both fast and slow heats, and never had any luck with making good
char.  My best guess is that even on 'slow' heat, it is still too much
for propane and coal.

Okay, you have your char tin heating on the fire.  More and more smoke
is coming out the tiny hole you made (that's why you made it!).  The
smoke smells really nasty.  Drop a burning twig across the hole to
ignite the smoke if you or your neighbors have a sensitive nose.  When
the smoke trail is almost gone, flip the can over in the fire, wait
1-2 minutes, and flip it back over.  If there is no more smoke pull
the can out of the fire, and IMMEDIATELY stick the twig into the hole
on the top.  The twig is to prevent pulling air back into the can as
it cools down. =20

This is why it is nice to make char toward nightfall.  If the can
starts glowing red, it tells you that you do NOT have an airtight
seal, and that air is being sucked back into the char tin, setting the
char on fire....that's why the can is a dull red in color...it's hot.
If this happens, toss the charcloth out and start over.  I once needed
to make some char at rendezvous and had stepped on the lid, so
couldn't get a good seal.  Rather than go borrow another tin, I tried
making up a thick mud of clay, smeared that around the rim, put on the
lid, added a bit more clay to the seam and tossed it in the fire.  It
worked like a charm.

If the char is brown, or even has white spots, it was not on the fire
long enough.  Put it back in the can and cook it some more.  You
should see more smoke coming out the hole as you finish charring the
cloth.  If the char is brittle, it has been overcooked or still had
the sizing left in the cloth.  Leftover sizing often also leaves a
shiny residue in the can.  If it is brittle, throw it away and start
over.  Good char should be bend double without any cracking or crazing
while being uniformly black in color.  You should be able to bend it
in half with no problems.  If it can't do that, it is overcooked and
makes inferior charcloth.  Yep, it will still start fires, just not
nearly as quickly.  Assuming none of these bad things happened,
congratulations!  You've made your first char cloth!  Now what?

Selecting a Flint

A lot of people think this is a no-brainer, but it is important.
There are two things you want in a flint.  The first is sharpness, and
the second is hardness.  A truly sharp flint is like a piece of broken
glass.  It is one molecule thick on the edge.  No steel knife of any
type can even begin to approach that sort of sharpness.  Learn how to
knap a flint for maximum sharpness.  It makes a big difference in how
strong a string of sparks you can toss from the steel.  Some of the
best flints I've ever had have been flakes and spalls left around
after someone demonstrated arrowhead making.  They're small and
exceedingly sharp.

Rule of thumb is that the darker the piece of flint, the harder it is.
And the harder the piece of flint, the lower it dulls.  But I've seen
some awfully light colored flints throw some very impressive sparks.
So I give sharpness the nod over the hardness of the flint.

If you can find it, get a chunk of red jasper.  Some parts of the
country it is easy to come by, and others quite difficult.  Here in
Houston, where we're 100 miles or more from the nearest rock at ground
level, I cruise gravel parking lots.  Much of the gravel we get is
flint, and there always seems to be a piece or two of red jasper.  Red
jasper is 2-3 times as hard as flint, and if sharp will really throw
some truly awesome sparks that can still sizzle when they hit the
ground.=20

Selecting a Striker

There are two types of strikers.  Good ones and bad ones.  Initially,
it can be hard to tell the difference.  The best place to get a GOOD
striker is at rendezvous from the smith who made it.  If you buy it
from someone other than the blacksmith who made it, test it out for
10-15 minutes.  Rule of thumb is that you should be able to hold the
striker at waist level, strike it with the flint, and have sparks
burning at the top of your moccasins.  When you find a striker that
does this, keep striking for about 15 minutes.  Some of the strikers
available have only a case hardening.  Those sparks you see are little
bits of burning metal cut off by the flint (see why we want a sharp
flint?) and ignited by the friction of the flint hitting the striker..


If you only have a case hardness on the steel the metal is hard for
only 2-3 thousands of an inch, and after 10 or so minutes of striking,
suddenly quit giving off a spark.  You've used up the hardness, and
the striker is worthless.  You'll pay a few bucks more getting a
striker from the original smith, but you'll also get a lifetime
guarantee, most likely.

Make sure the striking face is smooth.  If it is made from a file,
make sure that there are no file marks left on the face of the
striker, or near the edges where a flint can hit.  Catching one of
these defects can snap the striker in half, as it forces it to break
along a fault line.

Tinder

Tinder is made out of dead plants, the finer the better.  There's a
lot of good material out there.  Dead grasses rolled through the hands
until they become fibers, tow used in taxidermy (the leftovers from
the flax plant when the linen is removed), hay, pine needles, cedar
bark ground up finely by hand and allowed to dry.  You want to keep it
fine, but not turn it into a powder.  Tinder is the stuff that will
take the glowing coal from you char cloth and suddenly burst into
flame for building your fire.  Get the deadest, driest stuff you can
find, dry it some more, and then keep it dry!

Making a Fire by Flint and Steel

Okay, you now have good charcloth, a good flint, a good steel and some
tinder.  How do we go about turning this into a conflagration?  No
problem.  First of all, you're going to split up some kindling.  Then
you're going to follow the three (3) steps below EXACTLY AS WRITTEN.
Once you get these three steps down pay, you can start experimenting
to improve your speed.

The tender you have will burn for only a few seconds, so you have to
get some larger stuff burning during that time.  Start by getting some
dry wood split into pieces about the size of match sticks, and
gradually progressing until you are adding pieces about a half to inch
in diameter.  At that point there is no way the fire is going out
unless the heavens open up.  We're not going to get into types of
fires.  I like a tipi style, other like some of the many others.  Use
what works for you.

1.  Strike the spark.
If you're right-handed, hold the steel in your left hand.
Hold the flint/jasper level in your right with 2-3 pieces of char on
top of the rock.  The sharp edge of the flint must point to yor
right.Use your thumb to keep the char from slipping off and position
it so that the char is even with the striking edge of the flint.  Use
the steel to whack the flint in a rather gentle motion.  You're trying
to shave off tiny pieces of burning metal with the flint, not bash
down a building.  If you have to hit it hard to get a spark, you've
got either a lousy striker or a dull flint.  Band-Aids may be called
for until you get a feel for the proper technique. Keep it up until
you get a spark to catch on the char.  If you have good equipment and
Monk's cloth, only one or two whacks will be needed.  You can see a
small orange glow in the char where the spark has lodged.  This glow
may only be obvious in the dark unless you shade the cloth.  If you
can't see it and burn your thumb, it's lit..

2.  Blow it into flame
Blow on it gently to sprea  This can cause a massive blowing
fit, d the fire and at the same time grab a handful of the tinder
you've already made up into a bird's nest about the size of a
baseball.  Tuck the glowing char down into the center of the
birdsnest, pinch the birdsnest closed using your thumb and forefinger
to compress it around the char cloth, raise it above your head
slightly with your back to the wind, and gently blow on it.  If your
lungs empty, and no flames are in sight, turn your head to 90 degrees,
grab a breath of fresh air, and resume blowing.  You keep the nest
above your head, plus turn it 90 degrees to keep from sucking the
unlit smoke back in your lungs, which is detrimental to your Mt. Man
image.

3.  Starting the Fire
When the flames suddenly erupt, drop the birdsnest into your
firepit, add the kindling, and gently nurse the blaze into a full
conflagration by adding slightly larger pieces of wood to the fire.
Make up a pot of coffee, and invite the booshway over.  He may not be
impressed with your first-ever flint and steel fire, but he always
appreciates a pot of coffee.


Firebows

I'll be the first to admit this is not one of my areas of great
expertise.  But I have used a couple of systems, and have started a
hundred or so fires this way, mainly for the benefit of the public.

Roy Parker
We've all heared that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters
will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare.  Now, thanks =
to
the internet, we know this is not true.
=20

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:36:26 -0500
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

Wrong??   Nothing I said was wrong.  Do you think the rock sparks?  Or =
that the spark is spontaneously created when the steel and the rock are =
struck together?
The sparks come from the steel, not the rock, every time.   A poor steel =
and/or a poor rock will not create many sparks, as you say.  A sharp =
flint and a good steel can be used  to produce sparks in quantity, and =
this is the common way to strike fire. =20
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel


> Wrong.  It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two =
are=20
> struck together.  It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the =
fire=20
> steel, shaved off by the rock.  However, not all rocks and steel will =
spark=20
> together.  That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we =
don't=20
> necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel.  Only high =
carbon=20
> steel will spark, to my knowledge.  However, several, different kinds =
of rock=20
> will create a spark, when struck with the right steel.   One is no =
good=20
> without the other.  So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that =
much=20
> detail.=20
>=20

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:06:10 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:46:47 -0700 "Munroe Crutchley" <[e-mail]>
writes:
> Does it only take a few strikes to dull or wear out the
>edge of the flint? Am I looking for the sharpest edge on the flint I can
>find or what.? Should the striker be hard like a file? Mild steel? In
>between? I am striking the steel with the flint; I suppose this is the
>correct way!

Munroe Crutchley
a flint can be resharpened on ocasions and using the sharpest edge is
normally the best---when you strike the steel with your flint it should
be a glancing blow just like hitting a flint hammer to a frizzen---what
you are doing is shaving off some of the metal in the steel that is where
the sparks come from.  the way you were talking in your posting I would
assume that you may have some soft and hard spots in your steel---most of
the guys that have a good fire steel guard them with their life and will
use them for a lifetime---everyone likes a certain type of steel as far
as shape goes and there are many choices you can make from the forged
steel which it sounds like you have---forged steels are sometimes only
tempered on the outside and loose their temper---if not done properly as
you use it unless the smith was a good one and knew his tempering-

I have a steel that was given me by fred printice when i first started
skinning back in the early 60's and it is the proper size for my firebox
and feels good to me and always gives consistant spark no matter if i use
flint or chert or other hard rock---the black english flint chips do the
best with it and the sparks will crackel when you hit it a lick with the
flint---it is made out of a old used up and rusty horse rasp---with the
rough large surfaces ground off a bit so that it will still have a good
gripping surface and the edges are ground smooth---the smooth edge is
what i strike the flint on or the thinner surface---the rasp was broken
into pieces about  4 inches long and it is about 1 1/2  in wide and about
1/4 in thick----all that was done to it was the grinding and it sparks
like hell---"there was no tempering involved"---it has temper thru and
thru---it has never been retempered or has gone soft and has had the hell
used out of it.  when i strike the steel it is at a glancing blow of
about 10 to 15 degrees and not a banging motion---remember the flint must
cut off small minute slivers of the steel each time it is struck that is
where the sparks come from---

I have seen people strike the steel to the flint and the flint to the
steel ---basicly it is what is comfortable to you and gets the job
done---back about a year ago one of the guys posted a article on fire
making and went thru the whole process about 6 or seven pages of good
information---look in the arcives and see if you can find the
posting---it even gives a good and full explination of making char---with
a good steel and good char you should be able to have a blaze in less
than 10 seconds--one strike with the flint and steel and one blow---I
have been to a lot of matches and posted a lot of flint and steel fire
times under 5 seconds---from first strike to visible flame---

you might want to case harden the steel that you are using it might help
or on the other hand if it is a real low carbon steel then it will loose
all its spark and you have to start at SQUARE 1----try making your own
steel from a old file and grinding the edges smooth can find lots of old
big files at garege sales and in junk stores break it with a hammer and
grind smooth to fit ----have seen several people who work in a machine
shop take the files and put them on the surface grinder and smooth them
out and they make excelent fire steels---have a small one about 2 inched
by 1 1/4  by 3/16 that i carry in my shooting bag all the time use for
fire making on the treck and for knapping stuborn flints with hard spots
in them..

keep making the sparks fly and as you play you will learn what is best
for you---REMEMBER A GOOD STEEL IS A TREASURED THING---

YMHOSANT

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:30:12 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM

>We Don't advertise.
>
>Snakeshot #1593
>
the quite professionals---sometimes its difficult to carry a pilgram
thru to acceptance---I like to know the guy inside and outside and know
his metal before i ask him it took me about 3 years to get my sponcers to
ask me if i wanted to join---nuff said---

YMHOSANT
        =+=
      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:23:05 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

good posting john K. on the fire starting cant emphasise the technique
too much as well as practice---it must be done in a way that it is
comfortable and natural to you---used some of your finish last week it
still works great---going to have to get some more soon---probably my
next trip west will drop by and pick some up---best to you---

YMHOSANT

      "Hawk"
Michael Pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor, florida   34684
1-[phone]     E-MAIL ADDRESS: [e-mail]

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:22:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Caren Rago <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

Actually the reason for good sparks from steel and rocks over poor sparks is
due to the carbon in the steel or rocks.  Low carbon values usually end up
in very poor sparks thats why you can have a good steel and poor flint/chert
or a poor steel with good flint/chert and get lousy results.

I have found that files made in the USA spark great where files from china
and korea suck.  Now after you get your file and if you want to make a trad.
striker you heat, pound and bend until you get the shape and then it needs
to be tempered.  I just spent the weekend alongside a very informative
blacksmith at a rendezvous who explained and showed me how to do this.  He
also explained the properties of the metal and why today we can not make
horse shoes and knives throw sparks.

I carry a piece of flint in my pocket and while at flea markets and yard
sales I always use it to see if I can get sparks from a variety of old files
and tools. You would be amazed at what throws sparks and what does not.  For
instance I was in the back yard and picked up a piece of granite and wow did
it throw sparks with the flint.  I will be trying to start a fire with it
one day to see if it works.

Just my two cents

Frank V. Rago


At 11:36 PM 7/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Wrong??   Nothing I said was wrong.  Do you think the rock sparks?  Or that
the spark is spontaneously created when the steel and the rock are struck
together?
>The sparks come from the steel, not the rock, every time.   A poor steel
and/or a poor rock will not create many sparks, as you say.  A sharp flint
and a good steel can be used  to produce sparks in quantity, and this is the
common way to strike fire.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:02 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel
>
>
>> Wrong.  It is the steel and the rock that cause the spark when the two are
>> struck together.  It is true that the actual hot spark comes off the fire
>> steel, shaved off by the rock.  However, not all rocks and steel will spark
>> together.  That's why, for purposes of discussion of fire making, we don't
>> necessarily differentiate between the rock and the steel.  Only high carbon
>> steel will spark, to my knowledge.  However, several, different kinds of
rock
>> will create a spark, when struck with the right steel.   One is no good
>> without the other.  So, for the sake of brevity, I didn't go into that much
>> detail.
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:50:08 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

In a message dated 7/7/99 5:27:03 PM EST, [e-mail] writes:

<<  Then, place the glowing cloth in the
 middle of your "nest", blow on it until it bursts into flame >>

If you value your facial hair, nose hair, eyes etc.  Don't hold the nest
below your face and blow.  I have seen far to many successful fire starters
in competions have the nest flare up beautifuly in their face.  Hold it in
front of your face not below and down wind is not a bad idea either.  If you
have to blow on it below your face try using your turkey bone turkey call as
a blow tube which works great and gets your face back out of burn distance.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:03:45 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals

Hello all,

    What a great pleasure it was to have attended the AMM  National
Rendezvous for the first time. The location was fantastic although had hoped
we could have had a view of the Tetons from camp.
    I think the single greatest impression I have is the camaraderie and
friendship displayed by all. Eventhough this was my first National with the
AMM, it seemed that just by virtue of being there I was accepted as a brother
by all.  A heartfelt thanks to you good brothers.
    I was able to meet many friends from this list. Among them were Capt
Lahti, with whom I had the pleasure of studying tracking, Terry Landis,
Lanney Ratcliff, Pat Quilter, Don and Phyllis Keas, Jerry Zaslow and Paul
Jones. I was able to spend some time with Dean Rudy discussing things before
he had to leave. Even had the honor of having Hiverano #1, ole Walt Hayward
camped nearby. It was enjoyable spending some time around the fire with him
as he reminisced.
    The colleges were great. I didn't make it to all of them, but I did
get in on Winter Camping, Snow Shoe making, Tracking, Horse packing, and Trap
making.
    Another of the highlights was the Buffalo butchering. Inspite of how
long it took the poor crittur to die, once he did  Rod Douglas, Wes Housler
and Doc Ivory (what's his real name?) went to town and had him skinned and
butchered in about one hour. Them boys know how to do it right. A hearty chaw
of fresh liver with a dose of bile capped off the event.
    Truly shinin times in the Rocky Mountains!  WAUGH!!!!


Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1999 11:05:25 -0700
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Weather - this time of the year.

Hello Camp

Just got off the phone with old friend Peter Gobel of "Goose Bay Workshops", seems he has had bad luck again in VA. He had his house "nailed" by a thunder strom a few years ago, did much damage. On July 3rd of this year his shop had the same experience, blow a 2' hole in the roof, split the back of the building, knocked bricks out of the fireplace and fried most of the electrical equipment. While we were talking the insurance people showed up, will let you know the results later.

While thinking of Peter's problem, we should think about bad weather when out and about doing our historical events, this could be seriuos if in the wrong place at the right time.

The members of this list may enjoy what the weather brought to our forefathers living in St. Louis and surrounding area at the time of the Fur Trade.

BAD WEATHER
ôSuddenly the weather turns bad! Thundershowers, lighting, the sun is
blotted out! And there is nothing we can do to warn or prevent this act of mother nature.ö  These headlines appeared in the St. Louis Messenger on July
27,1837.

Then the article goes on about, ôthe terrible heat wave and drought of
1833-1834 and how the earth was parched, creeks turned into dry rock beds and crops burned in the fields. During the drought the temperature hovered near 100-degrees for the entire growing season and questioned how some families made it with available food supplies! ö

This was of coarse, extreme weather seldom seen in the Illinois country, but the threat of changes like this and an earlier period in 1816 had people talking of building food supplies like natures animals do every year. The start of storing grain and other field products was born.

Lets get back to the 1816 weather change, reported in HarperÆs Magazine, of that following year, ô Both January and February of 1816 were warm and springlike, so much so that settlers let their fireplaces die. The cold  started in March, with each day windy and blustery. Despite the weather, spring crops were planted, with vegetation well under way by April when unusual cold moved in. Snow or sleet fell for 17 different days in May, killing the fruit trees. June saw frost and snow for all but 3 days, it lasted through July.
August was worse, with ice coating the fields, vegetation was gone, wildlife had moved to distant lands and panic felled upon the people.ö This strange change in the weather was caused by a volanco thousands of miles away, that sent so much ash into the heavens it changed lives around the world and was not found out until a few years later.

(Several others have written of this unusual condition in North America in later years, Sunshine and Life magazines did several articles in the early 1900Æs.)

The oldtimers had several weather signs they used, ôwhen cows lie down in the pasture - expect rainö, ôspiderwebs on the morning grass with dew - expect rainö, ôif birds build their nests close to the trunk - expect a rainy summer - if nests are built low - expect high windsö or ôfrogs croaking in early spring - expect rainö.

Ben Franklin had several similar sayings, as did Thomas Jefferson both interested in growing edibles. These pioneers, as others that followed had  weather saying for each cloud formation, wind from different compass points or anything  of unsual conditions.

In 1839 the Messenger reported, ô WeÆre predicting the weather more
accurately than in the past, but its not harnessed and earthquakes,
hurricanes and tornado could happen at anytime.ö

Dwelling on such predictions, was considered in bad taste, it could raise our blood level far too high!

With the changes in the weather, in the same area in the last few years, things havenÆt improved that much with some of the experts reportings!

Barry Conner
AMM Jim Baker Party/Colorado Territory

________________________________________________________
Get a subscription to a journal of the fur trade and early history of the times, the one the American Mountain Men read and write:

The Tomahawk & Long Rifle
3483 Squires
Conklin, MI    49403
ATTN: Jon Link

The subscription for the journal is $20 for a year or $35 for two years. You will receive quarterly issues - Feb, May, Aug, Nov,.
________________________________________________________


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:48:39 -0500
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint and steel

At 10:22 AM 7/8/99 -0400, Frank V. Rago wrote:

>For
>instance I was in the back yard and picked up a piece of granite and wow=
 did
>it throw sparks with the flint.=A0 I will be trying to start a fire with=
 it
>one day to see if it works.
>

Before fire steels there were fire rocks.  Bow drills, hand drills, and
lightning weren't the only older ways.  It is as readily done today as in
pre-history.

John...

Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:48:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Weather - this time of the year.

Buck,

Had the great pleasure of meeting two fine fellows from the Baker party at
the National. Jim Sebastian and Mike Moore. Two first class men who welcomed
us into their camp the night before we arrived at the rendezvous site. They
fed us Buffalo loin ans shared a warm fire. Nice to meet fellow trappers on
the trail. Give em my best!

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 17:15:15 -0500
From: John Dearing <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #322

>
>
> >I've never made fire with flint a steel before but just a piece of flint
> >and a steel striker from TOTW. I haven't made any char yet, but have been
> >trying to learn to consistently make sparks. Problem is: sometimes I get a
> >shower of sparks and other times I strike and strike and don't get any. I
> >can't seem to tell what's making the difference;

For information on fire starting with flint and steel, as well as other assorted information,
try this URL; http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/PleinAir/priskar2.htm
This is the archived messages of an e-mail group, so there is allot of extraneous
garbage, but you will find lots of gems of information if you dig long enough.
J.D.

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jul 1999 16:26:14 -0700
From: <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan-List - Joining the AMM

Hawk,
  I believe that Bill Cunningham, Buck Conner and others in the AMM are pushing the "Tomahawk & Long Rifle" journal for interested parties to learn about this group, their values, etc.
  Something that was available but not advertised, Buck told me they would someday like to see them on the news-stand and advertised in other magazines. This would be a good starting point.
  Turtle.
__________________________________________
> the quite professionals---sometimes its difficult to carry a pilgram thru to acceptance---I like to know the guy inside and outside and know his metal before i ask him it took me about 3 years to get my sponcers to ask me if i wanted to join---nuff said---
>
> YMHOSANT
>         =+=
>       "Hawk"


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------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #323
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