Names that close and both being in the same type of activities, mistakes happen. You have done what is right with your apologies to the man and the list, that should make things right. Mistakes are just that, and you guys where big enought to stand up and admit the problem and hopefully that's the end of it.
Personality I didn't think anything either way until the apology, but some may wonder, hell we have all said or done something that turned out wrong and will probably do the same thing again before cashing in.
Powderhawk
____________________
> On Mon, 07 June 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote:
> I guess I need to say sorry also, and please Michael and the hist_list except my apology in this matter. I guess "lather" is a bad word !
> Michael and Mike are darn close for names, who would have thought different.
> Turtle.
> >
> > Like the old saying goes, "get your facts straight", and as shown I saw the name and was thinking of another person and not the gentlemen mentioned.
> >
> > Again please except my apologies for the blunder Bad Hand.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
Can anyone date "caps" in the mountains eariler than
Joe Meeks 1836?
===
George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:20:43 -0700
From: randybublitz@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch
on.....Hardtack
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 20:49:35 -0700
From: "john c. funk,jr" <j2hearts@shasta.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
Lets look at it this way. Virtually any cap you carry into the woods today
(assuming were talking primitive re-enactment) is a MODERN item and NOT a
replica of days gone by. Unless you have a "large" nipple on your gun and a
"top hat" type cap, you ain't replicating days of yore..........so.....let
your conscience by your guide. By the same token, flints of today are the
same product of yesterday.
Assuming that's why the subject was brought up (time and again) originally.
John Funk
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <randybublitz@juno.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
> Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch
> on.....Hardtack
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 03:22:37 -0500
From: kestrel@ticon.net
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
>Those percussion caps, etc.. are a cute idea, but they won't catch
>on.....Hardtack
Hmmmm,I got powder,I got ball,but I ain't got no nipple huggers, guess I'll
throw this da## thing at the bear!
Ya can always find a piece of flint,what do ya do when run out of caps?
Jeff Powers,A mind like a steel trap:Rusty and illegal in 37 states!
SOUFLE,SOUFLE, La Vielle
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive
------------------------------
Date: 9 Jun 1999 11:04:40 -0700
From: <buck.conner@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
Twenty five years ago while visiting Charles E. Hanson, Jr. we too were talking about percussion caps, their difference now and then. The Museum had several boxes of original caps from the late 1840's to mid 1850's according to the information Charley had on manufactuer, label details, etc.
They were cheap for what they were, so I bought both boxes and we decided to try several caps from each box, then try some of the new German percussion caps, CCI and Remington. Wanting to compare the difference if the old girls would go off to the new manufactured ones at the time.
Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps.
The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day.
I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round, but like Charley said this was tried in prefect conditions, not in the field or various climate changes that would be experienced. These caps have laid in storage all their life and probably in the best of possible conditions, as had the new percussion caps, so other than age the test was really not a test, other than the original caps would still fire.
Later
Buck Conner
> On Tue, 08 June 1999, "larry pendleton" wrote:
>
> The thinking seems to be that the men of that time were just slow to take
> to the new percussion system, and that may be true. It is also my
> understanding that the caps of that time were not nearly as dependable as
> what we have today. If anyone has any info as to whether they were are were
> not as dependable as today's caps, please jump in here . Besides, it's my
> contention that ye cap belongs on ye head. <G>
> Pendleton
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:48:26 +0000
From: Laura Rugel Glise <lglise@bellsouth.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion caps
10:30 p.m. EST
Gentlemen:
I saw the discussion regarding percussion caps yesterday. I don't have
all the firsthand knowledge that many of you possess, but I can find my
way around the best reference library. My own. One of the books on my
shelf is "The Treasury of the Gun" by Harold L. Peterson. After I saw
your discussion, and knew very little about the subject I tried to learn
more. This is what I found:
Although it is impossible to be certain who invented the percussion cap,
there were many claimants. The earliest patent was Prelat's in 1818,
but he was not the inventor. In his book, Peterson discusses the
possible fathers for the cap and the stories of their invention. They
are as follows:
Colonel Peter Hawker, a famous English sportsman, said he conceived the
idea after trying an unsuccessful pill lock, and convinced a reluctant
gunsmith to make a few guns on his plan.
Joseph Egg, a noted London gunmaker, said he invented the cap and made
the first one from a penny.
James Purdey maintained that he made the very first percussion cap of
brass from an old umbrella tag, and that Egg's only claim was making the
first copper cap. Purdey said his inspiration was an inverted glass.
The author, Peterson, says that an English artist, Joshua Shaw, stands
out above the rest. Shaw believed that the loose powder used in 1814
would never be fully satisfactory and he tried making a paste of the
materials. He stored tiny amounts of his paste in little steel
cylinders about 3/16 of an inch in diameter and 3/8 of an inch in
length. One of these cylinders accidentally became fixed on the ivory
tip of the artist's pencil lying on his desk. Another fortuitous
event: the pencil was struck by a sharp blow. There was a small
explosion and the pencil was shattered. According to Shaw, this was the
birth of the percussion cap. He immediately recognized its
possibilities and conceived the idea of placing such caps on nipples
similar to those used on patch locks. In 1815 Shaw produced a pewter
cap as an improvement on the first ones of steel and iron, and in 1816
he switched to copper.
Shaw emigrated to America, landing in Philidelphia in late 1817.
Because of (John) Forsyth's basic patent on Fulminate locks, Forsyth
averred that Shaw had not obtained an English patent on his caps, and
that as an alien, Shaw could not obtain an American patent until he had
lived in the U.S. for two years. Shaw waited five years (1822) before
applying for a patent, and, by that time, there were several European
patents on the device. There is no evidence, except for Shaw's own
statements, to substantiate his claims, but he was instrumental in
perfecting and popularizing the cap in America.
Please excuse this long discussion in the event you already know all of
the above . . . but if you didn't, I just thought you might like the
information. You can't have too much information/
Regards,
Laura Glise
Atlanta, Georgia
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:42:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: zaslow <zaz@pacificnet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
Said my piece on this topic before and sounds like all that have responded
are of the same opinion as me. Although there definitely were cap guns in
the mountains (as they are documented), they were not the choice of the
average mountaineer. I believe they were carried by the brigade leaders and
a few that choose to carry them, but were not as plentiful as we see them today.
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>
>
------------------------------
Date: 9 Jun 1999 19:48:13 -0700
From: <turtle@uswestmail.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion Caps
You where lucky that any of them caps went off, of course I remember the original blunderbust that came into your store in Masonville, CO and we got to playing with it and took it out back, but a new flint in her and she discharged a load of stuff that had been in it's belly for who knows how long. The lady that brought it in told Ben Thompson that it had been in her care for 60 years when she sold it to you guys. Now thinking about it that was really dumb shooting out the charge, could have been anything - even modern powder.
So old precussion caps, old black powder can still work even after years of being stored in the barrel of a gun or resting on the nipple of one. All of us need to be careful about such things.
I saw Buck's friend and store manager Ben Thompson put an old percussion cap on a bad nipple and the damn think went off turning a few fingers black and blue. Pretty serious for Ben, he only has one arm.
Be careful when handling these items they are not toys - big boys.
Turtle.
> Out of (10) original caps only 6 went off, one kind of made a fizzzzzsss..... sound and the other three wouldn't do anything, even after being snapped several times. We finally decided that the old caps would be equal to Remington's if new, but not as hot or responsive as the CCI and no where close to the Hot German caps.
>
> The caps mentioned on this subject earlier were of the musket "hat" type from the 1830's, the caps we had were at least 10-15 years newer design, not having the flattened rim and smaller in dia., the Green River Hawken had a no.11 nipple that was a little smaller dia. than the original caps tested, but standard for our caps of the day.
>
> I was just impressed that they went off, and surprised that they would discharge a blank test round,............
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:18:39 -0400
From: Michael Pierce <hawknest4@juno.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Percussion caps
On Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:48:26 +0000 Laura Rugel Glise
<lglise@bellsouth.net> writes:
>10:30 p.m. EST
>Gentlemen:
I KNOW---you use this term loosely---(GBG)---(BR)
>I saw the discussion regarding percussion caps yesterday. I don't
have
>all the firsthand knowledge that many of you possess, but I can find my
>way around the best reference library.
>Laura Glise
Laura Glise you present a good logical and well organized input and very
well documented ----I hope this will add to your disertation on caps--its
good to see someone put the documentation in a good flowing document--I
will store it with my other important documentation that i sometimes use
for reference------back in the early 60's I was deep into collecting cap
boxes and still have a box full of them them hid out in the gun room
- ---should have swaped them off but they dont eat anything or require any
maintainance---always wanted to make a display out of them in a year date
secquence that they were made so that I had a track of dateing them for
time and date produced ---IE the earliest to the latest---I have given
several of my duplicates away to people who had cased sets that were
missing the cap boxes---when you look at the boxes you will find that a
lot of early ones are made of red brass and the earliest are made of what
i think is zink but am not sure I know it is not silver or german silver
or tin (someone out there might enumerate on this)--. those that i have
that can be dated in the early 1840's --50's or prior seem to be made
from the red brass then--- in the late 1850's they went to a steel or tin
being used---with some of the boxes made of paper---Yet I have a single
paper box that seems to date back into the 1840's ---I always felt that
it was a refill for a cased set --as for as brands or makers there seems
to only be about 6 or 8 brands prior to 1880 with about 3 primary
makers---BTW those prior to 1860 seem to be primarily foreign made I
only have a few that were made in the us and those were made in the
1850-1860 time span by my dateing.
I have a purdy marked cap box and a Egg marked box but have always felt
that they dated in the 1840 plus dates---have several of the civil war
musket cap boxes only one that is the large musket cap without the wings
on the caps---I feel that it was produced prior to the cival war---had a
discussion with COL. E Burton Saunders in the late 50's about caps when I
was helping him clean his guns---this was when i was a kid and needed
extra money so i worked on saturdays cleaning his guns in his house
before he died and his guns were put into a his museum in Berryville
Arkansas--the point that has stuck with me for so many years was that the
try wing was made primarily during the civil war and was easier to
produce than the cylindercal ones---the reason for the try wing was ease
and time of forming and easier to cut out the base material and the
finished caps were not trimmed back and reformed a second time to get the
full cylinders---without the wings---I hope you guys understand what i am
saying here---Remember this explination was Hear-say and i cannot
document this except from common sence and basic logic---
I am highly inclined to thank as many of the guys in the AMM that the Cap
gun was not a common thing in the mountains prior to 1840---But yes there
was a few ---I personally believe that there were more cap-pistols than
rifles being used (Here is a good Point of discussion) as Dale Black
and Pappy Horn and the bunch always said " If the big maker had wanted us
to use caps on our fire sticks in the mountains then he would have filled
all the creeks with them and not flint or chert rocks"
again you did a good job on your presentation on the cap thing---good
