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hist_text-digest       Wednesday, March 3 1999       Volume 01 : Number 248




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:19:34 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains

If I remember right, fish is one of those "hard to keep" items.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:56:31 -0800
From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains

It is, but you can smoke it and it keeps fairly well.  Tastes good, too.

Sidney
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains


>If I remember right, fish is one of those "hard to keep" items.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:25:13 -0600
From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains

JW:  I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the "fur
trade era" generally.  There is a fair amount of material from original
sources that pertains to the beaver-men.  They did not all ignore the trout,
which were abundant.  Rather than retype what will be a fairly long paper,
when complete, with some 50+ citations just as to the fur trade era, would
be something of an ordeal.  However, give me a call and I can direct you to
some interesting reading and will send you and anyone else interested a copy
of the finished paper (around the 1st to middle of March.  I have also been
reproducing period horsehair lines, snelled hooks and flies using period
correct materials and following 17th and 18th century directions as to
construction.  I import the hooks (eyeless), horsehair--yes, the Europeon
variety is a higher grade for this purpose, and silkworm gut for leaders.  I
have been able to document everything (horsehair line, hooks, etc.) ,
including a "cased" rod, from journals and/or supply records, except the
silkworm gut, being used in the Rockies during the period from Lewis and
Clark through 1850.  I love this topic.  Wife complains about my fly
materials (collected since I was 10---decades ago), and assorted piles of
this and that.  Like my mountain man/longhunter clothing, personal gear and
the like, she says she sees junk where I see jewels.  She has been
particularly displeased with the 100 odd books stacked around the computer
as I try and finish my paper.  Oh well, what are wifes for anyway?  Regards,
Paul

512 292-4311
- -----Original Message-----
From: JW Stephens <[e-mail]>
To: 'Mt. Man List' <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, March 01, 1999 11:10 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains


>I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade
era
>mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during
the
>times when beaver weren't being trapped.
>
>Since trappers were in the water a lot they must have seen the abundance of
>fish in beaver ponds and the waters that beaver frequent. Surely trout were
not
>like the European honey bee, making its way across the continent just in
>advance of the westering nation, but a native population, established and
in
>balance like the buffalo and forest primeval. Yet in my reading this winter
>(Osborne Russell, Hafen, Morgan, Bil Gilbert, Lewis Garrard and others) I
have
>found many lean times around quality waters. What, were these guys too
stupid
>to know how to catch and eat fish? I am puzzled ...
>
>No doubt there were forms of catching fish that many would avoid as
unsuitable
>"recreation" but though I have seen many references to natives fishing with
>weir and spear, why have I not seen reference to the hungry trapper, cached
in
>Blackfeet country, not wanting to shoot at game for fear of drawing
unwelcome
>company, filling his meatbag with the produce of stream and pond? And how
about
>during rendezvous, and for that matter, how about in tribal camps?
>
>Any help solving this mystery for me will be appreciated.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:27:24 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains

JW Stephens <[e-mail]> wrote:

>>I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade era
mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during the
times when beaver weren't being trapped.<<

Fishing was routine in the Canadian fur trade (1774-1821), including in the
Rocky Mountains. Usually nets were used, but angling, ice fishing (usually
with nets, sometimes with lines), and spear fishing also took place fairly
frequently. (I even have one record of fly fishing!) Trout weighing 25-45
lbs were routinely caught by ice fishing on lakes with lines; David Thompson
described how to do it in detail (Thompson, _Narrative_, 123-124). Pike and
sturgeon were also caught. Many Canadian fur posts were on large lakes, in
order to assure a steady winter food supply of fish (usually whitefish,
caught in nets set under the ice).

Here are some examples of fur trade fishing from the Rockies:

"Took up the nets--not a single fish...Most of the Men went angling of a
kind of Mullet..." 1807, Kootenae House.  David Thompson, _Columbia
Journals_, 54

"As there are many small Fish in the strong Current of the River, we staked
across at the distce of abt 20 ft from one stake to another, to set our Nets
by & keep them steady to the Current." 1807, Kootenae House.  David
Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 55

"Sent the Men to collect Wood to make a Weir. By 3 pm they supposed they had
enough & began to place the Triangles of heavy green Aspin loaded with
Stones..." 1807, Kootenae House.  David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 56;

"In the Evening Mr F McDonald & 2 Men went off to spear Salmon in the Night.
They returned with 5 Salmon..." 1807, Kootenae House.  David Thompson,
_Columbia Journals_, 63

"Began a Salmon Nett of 17 f[atho]ms wrought of twisted holland Twine..."
1807, Kootenae House.  David Thompson, _Columbia Journals_, 64

>>... how about in tribal camps?<<
Most tribes I've read about engaged in fishing, and of course the Natives of
the Pacific Northwest were (and are) skilled salmon fishers. I've been told,
however, that the Blackfoot tribes did not fish. Can anyone confirm that?

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:01:46 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains

JW Stephens wrote:

> I'm interested in persuing any leads regarding documentation of fur-trade era
> mountaineers and trout fishing either for sustenance or recreation during the
> times when beaver weren't being trapped.

JW,

This subject is one of interest to me also. I look forward to Brother Paul's paper
on the topic when he gets it done in March.

One of the things I have noticed in my reading is a goodly lack of reference to
fishing other than the occasional reference to survival fishing  or subsistence
fishing by expeditions. There are tantalizing references to such activity in the
L&C journals and in Washington Irvings' "Astoria" where Irving relates how some
members of the Wilson Price Hunt Expedition were found fishing along the Snake R.
in present day Idaho because they had become lost and were finding no other game
and thus in starving times.

>
>
> Since trappers were in the water a lot they must have seen the abundance of
> fish in beaver ponds and the waters that beaver frequent. Surely trout were not
> like the European honey bee, making its way across the continent just in
> advance of the westering nation, but a native population, established and in
> balance like the buffalo and forest primeval.

Trout and other fish including Salmon were very plentiful in the mountains of the
west when europeans arrived. Much trading with Native Tribes was done for dry cured
fish.

> Yet in my reading this winter
> (Osborne Russell, Hafen, Morgan, Bil Gilbert, Lewis Garrard and others) I have
> found many lean times around quality waters. What, were these guys too stupid
> to know how to catch and eat fish? I am puzzled ...

There are many accounts of how these folks fed themselves that would indicate that
they were not in the habit of eating what the native population was more than
willing to exploit and thus often went hungry. That is not to say that all had such
an attitude. I would suspect that the hunter gatherer traditions of the Indian were
not commonly practiced by whites.

>
>
> No doubt there were forms of catching fish that many would avoid as unsuitable
> "recreation" but though I have seen many references to natives fishing with
> weir and spear, why have I not seen reference to the hungry trapper, cached in
> Blackfeet country, not wanting to shoot at game for fear of drawing unwelcome
> company, filling his meatbag with the produce of stream and pond? And how about
> during rendezvous, and for that matter, how about in tribal camps?

There are a number of references to fish hooks and such being brought west to
trade. Whether they were to be used by the trapper or the indian is what is a
mystery. Could it be that the white trapper did not see such activity as sport or
even a normal way of feeding oneself? Trading for smoked fish is one thing,
catching them as a regular activity may have been another thing entirely.

Brother Paul will undoubtedly have found many of the answers and I am glad to see
someone is pursuing this subject. My comments are just speculation for the most
part based on what little information there is that is readily available. One of
the mistakes I think we make these days is assuming that the normal thinking
processes of our day were in use during an earlier time. What we would see as
obvious now may have been the last thing on "their" minds. My humble thoughts. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:15:46 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains

Paul I wrote an article in the T&LR about fishing back in 93 or 94 I know
it was after Rock Creek in UT if I can find a copy I'll send you a copy.
Later Jon T

- ----------
: From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
: Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:25 AM
:
: JW:  I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the
"fur
: trade era" generally

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:29:43 -0600
From: "Ratcliff" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: More about Texas

Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans, =
everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown =
by heroes.  Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than =
the men who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that =
came to a bloody end on March 6, 1836.
Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with their =
lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the =
Republic of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836.  At =
least one of my ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time =
of the Texas Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more =
personal than many.  So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice =
of those heroes (and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the =
legacy they left for all of us. =20
Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan
Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following:

Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence Day, =
Texas
Independence Day.  In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a =
little
reminder of history.



Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo
(24 February 1836)


William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found
themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late =
February
of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of =
Mexican
Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks.=20

On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by well =
over
2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement =
gave
other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily, and =
to
ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto,
fought April 21, 1836.=20

The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first
appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a =
supreme
example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice.=20


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Commandancy of the Alamo=20
Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836=20

To the People of Texas &
all Americans in the world=20
Fellow Citizens & Compatriots=20

I am besieged by a thousand
or more of the Mexicans under
Santa Anna. I have sustained a
continual bombardment &
cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man. The enemy
has demanded a surrender at
discretion, otherwise the garrison
are to be put to the sword if
the fort is taken. I have answered=20
the demand with a cannon
shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls. I
shall never surrender nor retreat.=20

Then, I call on you in the
name of Liberty, of patriotism, &
of everything dear to the American
character, to come to our aid=20
with all dispatch. The enemy is
receiving reinforcements daily &
will no doubt increase to three or
four thousand in four or five days.
If this call is neglected, I am deter-
mined to sustain myself as long as
possible & die like a soldier
who never forgets what is due to
his own honor & that of his
country.=20

Victory or Death=20
William Barret Travis=20
Lt. Col. Comdt.=20

P. S. The Lord is on our side.
When the enemy appeared in sight=20
we had not three bushels of corn.
We have since found in deserted=20
houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into
the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.=20

Travis=20



God Bless Texas!!!  (This is my own little inclusion and not part of =
Travis'
letter)


Regards,
Paul Stevens

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:08:12 -0600
From: "Glenn Darilek" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas

Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero.  On March 3, in the
midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse Grimes:

"Take good care of my little boy.  If the country should be saved, I may
make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I should
perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the son
of a man who died for his country."

If that don't get you, nothing will.

Glenn Darilek
Iron Burner


- -----Original Message-----
From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>


>Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by
heroes.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:38:53 -0800
From: butch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains

>
> >>... how about in tribal camps?<<
> Most tribes I've read about engaged in fishing, and of course the Natives of
> the Pacific Northwest were (and are) skilled salmon fishers. I've been told,
> however, that the Blackfoot tribes did not fish. Can anyone confirm that?
>
> Your humble & obedient servant,
> Angela Gottfred
>
> [e-mail]


    Hello, Angela:

    In E. A. Wallace's book _Lords of the South Plains_ , about
the Comanches, he specifically states that they did not eat
fish.  It is my impression that none of the buffalo hunting
Indians ate fish, except perhaps in famine conditions.  I'm
sorry I can't be more specific, but I just moved and my
books are buried in storage.  I know Wallace's book is still
in print, as I recently bought a copy from Amazon.com.  It
is the definitive work on the Comanches, as far as I know,
and is fascinating.  I am embarrassed to say that I can't
remember the name of his co-author.

    Best,

    Blue

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:43:56 -0800 (PST)
From: zaslow <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles

Hi Todd,

I don't think anyone mentioned this but if you have "Firearms, Traps, &
Tools of the Mountain Men" by Carl P. Russell on pages 5 & 6 it talks a
little about hats.

Best Regards,

Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488
________________________________________________________________________________

At 03:41 PM 2/25/99 EST, you wrote:
>Howdy all,
>
>
>        Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes of
>mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can
>anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum
>of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
>shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
>          When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
>more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
>           Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Happy trails
>
>Todd Glover
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:49:44 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles

Thanks Jerry, I'll read it.

Todd

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:14:03 -0800
From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas

Viva la Tejas!!!


- -----Original Message-----
From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
To: History List <[e-mail]>; AMM
<[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:31 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: More about Texas


Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by
heroes.  Few people anywhere have accounted themselves better than the men
who fell at the seige of the Alamo...thirteen days of glory that came to a
bloody end on March 6, 1836.
Among the things accomplished during the time they purchased with their
lives was the completion of the Declaration of Independence of the Republic
of Texas at Washington on the Brazos on March 2, 1836.  At least one of my
ancestors held a land grant in central Texas at the time of the Texas
Revolution so my feelings about those events are even more personal than
many.  So please excuse my shamless pride in the sacrifice of those heroes
(and those at Goliad and other battles) and of the legacy they left for all
of us.
Lanney Ratcliff, Proud Texan
Thanks to Paul Stevens for posting the following:

Regardless of what ya'll learned in school, today is Independence Day, Texas
Independence Day.  In honor of this day, I decided to send ya'll a little
reminder of history.



Travis' Appeal for Aid at the Alamo
(24 February 1836)


William Barret Travis and almost two hundred other defenders found
themselves surrounded at the Alamo Mission in San Antonio in late February
of 1836. Refusing to surrender, they held off the invading armies of Mexican
Dictator Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna for almost two weeks.

On March 6, the courageous Texans were overrun and slaughtered by well over
2000 Mexicans. The resulting delay of Santa Anna's eastward movement gave
other Texans more time to organize, both politically and militarily, and to
ultimately defeat and capture Santa Anna at the Battle of San Jacinto,
fought April 21, 1836.

The letter below was written by Travis soon after the Mexicans first
appeared in the area around San Antonio. It is often referenced as a supreme
example of the virtues of courage and self-sacrifice.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Commandancy of the Alamo
Bexar, Fby. 24th, 1836

To the People of Texas &
all Americans in the world
Fellow Citizens & Compatriots

I am besieged by a thousand
or more of the Mexicans under
Santa Anna. I have sustained a
continual bombardment &
cannonade for 24 hours & have
not lost a man. The enemy
has demanded a surrender at
discretion, otherwise the garrison
are to be put to the sword if
the fort is taken. I have answered
the demand with a cannon
shot, and our flag still waves
proudly from the walls. I
shall never surrender nor retreat.

Then, I call on you in the
name of Liberty, of patriotism, &
of everything dear to the American
character, to come to our aid
with all dispatch. The enemy is
receiving reinforcements daily &
will no doubt increase to three or
four thousand in four or five days.
If this call is neglected, I am deter-
mined to sustain myself as long as
possible & die like a soldier
who never forgets what is due to
his own honor & that of his
country.

Victory or Death
William Barret Travis
Lt. Col. Comdt.

P. S. The Lord is on our side.
When the enemy appeared in sight
we had not three bushels of corn.
We have since found in deserted
houses 80 or 90 bushels & got into
the walls 20 or 30 head of Beeves.

Travis



God Bless Texas!!!  (This is my own little inclusion and not part of Travis'
letter)


Regards,
Paul Stevens

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:42:01 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Setting Mail To Post Pone

I am dumb, someone tell me how to do this.

B

- --
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:35:49 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: Test

computer problem

thanks,

- --
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:55:01 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test

Know it is not subject related, but i need e-mail address for Mountain Man Histo
ry List Owner.

Major computer problem this afternoon, that is cured after total hard drive clean
, and reinstall.  Someone is goofing with computer again.  No I did not open, and
 attachments or files.

Please respond with list owner e-mail address.  [e-mail], is coming back
as "Undeliverable"

Thanks,

B

- --
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:13:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test

bruce, [e-mail] should work.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:13:19 -0600
From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains

Thank you very much.  My address is 9306 Roxanna Drive, Austin, Texas 78748.
Despite rumors from Colorado, we still have a bit of dry land.  Paul
- -----Original Message-----
From: JON P TOWNS <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains


>Paul I wrote an article in the T&LR about fishing back in 93 or 94 I know
>it was after Rock Creek in UT if I can find a copy I'll send you a copy.
>Later Jon T
>
>----------
>: From: Paul Jones <[e-mail]>
>: To: [e-mail]
>: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fishing in the mountains
>: Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 5:25 AM
>:
>: JW:  I am writing my AMM paper on this subject, and fishing during the
>"fur
>: trade era" generally
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:27:09 -0600
From: "Paul Jones" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas

Boys, I grant Travis was a man of the moment and is special to our history.
But remember this is the same man who kept a diary during his years in Texas
detailing his numerous affairs in the foulest manner you can imagine, even
citing how much he paid.  He is also the man who, although still married to
the mother of his beloved son (both living in another state where he had
left them some years before while he sought his fortune in Texas), got
engaged to a respectable young lady in Tejas, and left her a legacy of a
serious "social disease" whose terminal stages of dementia he avoided with
his untimely demise at the Alamo.  Reading the diary (available in all its
glory at the State Archives) gives the other side of his "literary" bent,
and it is sadly a far cry from the eloquence of his missives from the Alamo.
I guess we just need to take our heroes, warts and all.  Paul
- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; AMM
<[e-mail]>
Date: Tuesday, March 02, 1999 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas


>Yes, Travis was a very expressive and literate hero.  On March 3, in the
>midst of the seige of the Alamo, Travis wrote to his friend Jesse Grimes:
>
>"Take good care of my little boy.  If the country should be saved, I may
>make him a splended fortune; but if the country should be lost, and I
should
>perish, he will have nothing but the proud recollection that he is the son
>of a man who died for his country."
>
>If that don't get you, nothing will.
>
>Glenn Darilek
>Iron Burner
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ratcliff <[e-mail]>
>
>
>>Even if you aren't Texan or even if you don't particularly like Texans,
>everybody should certainly hold very dear the courage and fidelity shown by
>heroes.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:11:06 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Test

Bruce, last message from you was about 5+PM. The last MLML messages I down loaded
came over about 8PM+ (looking in my trash bin and my inbox.

Capt. Lahti'

"BRUCE S. DE LIS" wrote:

> Know it is not subject related, but i need e-mail address for Mountain Man Histo
> ry List Owner.
>
> Major computer problem this afternoon, that is cured after total hard drive clean
> , and reinstall.  Someone is goofing with computer again.  No I did not open, and
>  attachments or files.
>
> Please respond with list owner e-mail address.  [e-mail], is coming back
> as "Undeliverable"
>
> Thanks,
>
> B
>
> --
> "The Price Of Freedom
>      Is Not Free"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:22:32 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More about Texas

I once read in some book or the other, "that everything in Texas, either
stings, sticks or stinks."  Hmmmm?

Lil griz

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #248
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