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hist_text-digest       Friday, February 26 1999       Volume 01 : Number 246




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Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:33:09 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Angela Gottfred)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: York boat bill of lading (was: Gum)

Curioser and curioser! The more that I thought about it, the stranger this
bill of lading (on Rudy's web site, www.xmission.com/~drudy) seemed. The
introduction said it was a pre-printed form for a York boat, in French, for
1803. However, the term "York boat" was not used until the late 1800's;
before that time, they were called "inland boats". Secondly, the HBC was the
only company to use York boats. They hired boat builders from the Orkney
Islands who built the first York boats for them at Edmonton House in 1795.
They were used along with canoes until George Simpson urged their
wholehearted adoption in 1821, along with construction of the system of
trails and portage routes needed to support them. (More about this in a
moment.) The North West Company used canoes and bateaux, which they
sometimes called Red River boats.

The business language of the HBC was English. This makes it exceedingly odd
that a York boat bill of lading would be pre-printed in French, for the
English-speaking HBC. On the other hand, the NWC used pre-printed forms, in
French, for their canoe bills of lading. The daily language of the NWC was
French (most NWC clerks spoke French and English, as well as Native
languages for trading purposes). I pulled a NWC canoe bill of lading from my
files (from Leslie F. Hannon's _Redcoats & Loyalists_, p. 82), and to my
surprise (after translation), it was almost identical to the one on Rudy's
web site. Every single item on the NWC bill of lading (for a canoe leaving
the Montreal area in 1802) was the same as the "York boat" bill of lading.
Furthermore, one of the items on the York boat bill of lading should _not_
be there. Bundles of spruce roots are vital to repairing canoes. They are
totally useless on a York boat.

There were no items on one list that were not on the other. I'm confident
that this bill of lading has been mis-identified. It is not for a York boat,
but for a NWC canoe. Since I've spent some time studying and translating the
canoe bill of lading, I can comment on a few of the items on it.

English Translation=Original French=Comments
"Carotes Tobacco"="Tabac en carotes"=Tobacco in carrots, i.e. leaf tobacco
in a carrot-shaped bundle
"Pots"="Chaudieres"=kettles
"Brass Pots"="Chaudieres de cuivre"=copper kettles (brass is 'cuivre jaune'
or 'laiton')
"White Iron (tinned) pots"="Chaudieres de fer blanc"=tin kettles
"Pork"="Lard"=salt pork
"Large Barrels of Mixed"="Maccarons Mele"=large barrels of high wines mixed
with water, ready to drink
"Milled India Wheat"="Ble d'Inde d'1 1/2 minot"=milled? Indian corn
"200 lb. Paper wrapped packages Pork"="200 livres de Lard"=200 pounds salt pork
"Sail canvas"="voile"=sail
"12 lb. Paper wrapped packages of Gum"="12 a 18 livres de Gomme"=12 to 18
pounds Gum

Now, on to the second question: What is the difference between a canoe, a
York boat, and a bateau?

Canoes: made of birch bark sewed with spruce roots onto a frame of white oak
or cedar. Seams pitched with gum made from pitch & charcoal. Pointy both
ends, flat bottom. Takes 1-2 men to portage, depending on the size of the
canoe. Must be unloaded before it can be drawn ashore. Cargo capacity: 1-2
tons, depending on size. Crew: 4-8 skilled voyageurs.
Bateaux: Flat bottom, pointy both ends. Made from boards nailed together.
York boat: Keeled, pointy both ends. Made from boards nailed together. Takes
a whole bunch of guys to portage it; must be pulled over rollers on
especially wide portage trails. Cargo capacity:  LOTS more than a canoe.
Crew: 6-8 relatively unskilled men, with the exception of the man on the
stern sweep/rudder.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred


John Kramer <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>Angela,

I think you may be right about the mis-translation of paper.  I haven't seen
the original since 1979 and no longer have access to anything but the
translation in "Shepherd's Compleat..." as my French is on the scanty side=
 and
I only worked a little on the translation I can't say what the original word
was.  The listing did include some colloquialisms as I recall.  The belaying
pins originally translated as 2 priests.  It took some head scratching,
cogitating and querying of several well versed in the language to sort it
out.=20
It's nearly certain some error crept in.

I would like to see a drawing or picture of a York boat someday.  If you can
offer better information for the lead introduction Dean has posted I would
sure
appreciate it as I'm sure would he.  I have very little information about=
 what
they were. =20

The original was acquired by Stephen Shepherd who I haven't seen in years=
 and
who no longer pursues historic endeavors.  It may have been lost or=
 destroyed
with other prime references in an ugly divorce.  He acquired it while=
 working
at Connor Prairie in Indiana.
<<
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:05:59 -0600
From: "Mike Rock" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #245

York Boats, as a topic in the Mariners Museum, with or without associations
to the fur trade, are not to be found.  Can any more names be suggested?
The address is www.mariner.org/.  Great place.  Look in the library.  The
Hudson's Bay Company has fifteen great references.  I tried many
combinations for the York Boat including naval architecture, and was
stumped.

Rock

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:43:12 -0800
From: "Sidney Porter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Convention

Charlie,

Thanks for the information.  Goodness, that's just a week away.  I don't
think I can get away from work on that little notice.  *sigh*  It sounds
like a great event.  Maybe next year!

Sidney

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:42:18 -0800
From: Roger Lahti <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: York boat bill of lading (was: Gum)

Angela Gottfred wrote:

> Curioser and curioser! The more that I thought about it, the stranger this
> bill of lading (on Rudy's web site, www.xmission.com/~drudy) seemed. The
> introduction said it was a pre-printed form for a York boat, in French, for
> 1803. However, the term "York boat" was not used until the late 1800's;
> before that time, they were called "inland boats".

John Kramer,

Perhaps Angela has read the same material that I found compiled in an article in
"Wooden Boat Magazine" #144, Sept./Oct. 1998 that deals with "York Boats", their
history and construction. I knew I had seen a picture of these boats some where and
that is where I saw it.

The article includes, besides some good history of the boats, several old photos
including a partial photo of the last one ever built by HBC which was found at
Norway House. On page 55 and the following pages are some drawings of the
dimensions and even the sail plan for these boats. A brave hearted wood butcher
could make a York Boat from these sketches.

Angela mentioned that the term York Boat wasn't used until the latter part of the
19th Century and that seems to be true. The article does put it a bit differently.
The author, D.F. Johnson says on page 51, "Later, after the Northwest Company was
absorbed by the Hudson's Bay Company in 1821, freight canoes were replaced by
wooden boats throughout most of the trading area, although light weight "express
canoes" were retained for exploration, mail delivery, and executive transport.
Eventually these wooden boats became known as "York Boats", after the name of
company headquarters at York Factory." The author goes on to point out that
starting in about 1745 and continuing for the next 70 years the "Company" hired
boatwrights and carpenters to build a variety of inland boats. The York Boat seems
to be the distillation of all that effort and became the final "state of the art"
version that was used into the 1920's.

This article is quit informative and I encourage you to look it up. If I can figure
out how to do it and you can figure out how to down load my attachment I would be
happy to scan a page or two for you, John.

Thank you again Angela, for coming through with so much great information. I
remain.....

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:41:40 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles

Howdy all,


        Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes of
mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can
anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum
of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
          When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
           Any help would be appreciated.

Happy trails

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:17:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Vic Barkin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles

Hey Todd,

Get ahold of a January 99 Muzzleblasts. Has a good article on hatmaking

Vic

>Howdy all,
>
>
>        Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of
>the many stlyes of
>mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can
>anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum
>of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
>shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
>          When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
>more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
>           Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Happy trails
>
>Todd Glover


Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin

AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party
"Aux aliments du pays!"

Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona
Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:21:41 -0600
From: "McKee" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles

besides the ever popular top hat, beaver was also used as trim on ladies
dresses and for hand muffs.
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 3:03 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles


>Howdy all,
>
>
> Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes
of
>mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that,
can
>anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the
Museum
>of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
>shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
>          When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
>more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
>           Any help would be appreciated.
>
>Happy trails
>
>Todd Glover
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:15:36 -0800
From: Frank <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hat Styles

YUP!  http://clearwaterhats.com/  They're the best!

Medicine Bear

[e-mail] wrote:

> Howdy all,
>
>                 Does anyone know of a site on the net that shows some of the many stlyes of
> mens hats that were popular in the 17th and 18th centuries? Barring that, can
> anyone suggest any book titles which show these styles. I know an the Museum
> of the Mountain Man in Pinedale Wyoming they have a nice large graphic that
> shows about ten stlyes with their names ie, Beau Brummel etc.
>           When doing educational presentations, I'd like to speak a little
> more intelligently about the hats that used so many beaver.
>            Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Happy trails
>
> Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:07:44 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm

Todd try this page they have a lot of Hats.  Later Jon T

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:47:31 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm

Jon,


Thanks! That was exactly what I was looking for. Can't believe all the hat
styles, WOW!  Everyone should check out this site.
<A HREF="http://hatcrafters.com/index.html">Hatcrafters Home Page</A>

Todd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:48:12 +0000
From: Joseph Miller <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats Where?http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm

I think the list was misinformed I didn't see anything about beaver hats
at
hatcrafters.com/index.html.

What gives?
Joe

- --
Join the ABOUT COLORADO Discussion List--
mailto:[e-mail] SUBJECT= Subscribe
- --
Joseph Miller, Webmaster
http://www.Colorado-Mall.com
For information on leasing mall space
mailto:[e-mail]
To be Happy, Joyous and Free
Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:53:29 -0800
From: "JON P TOWNS" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats Where?http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm

Where did you get Beaver hats out of " they have a lots hats" I said
nothing about Beaver hats.
They have a lot price like Beaver Hats.
- ----------
: From: Joseph Miller <[e-mail]>
: To: [e-mail]
: Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats Where?http://hatcrafters.com/Contact.htm
: Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 12:48 PM
:
: I think the list was misinformed I didn't see anything about beaver hats
: at
: hatcrafters.com/index.html.
:
: What gives?
: Joe
:
: --
: Join the ABOUT COLORADO Discussion List--
: mailto:[e-mail] SUBJECT= Subscribe
: --
: Joseph Miller, Webmaster
: http://www.Colorado-Mall.com
: For information on leasing mall space
: mailto:[e-mail]
: To be Happy, Joyous and Free
: Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome!
:

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:57:12 +0100
From: Allen Chronister <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: york boats

This may have been posted already, but there is an article
on "York Boats", with photos, in The Beaver magazine, March,
1949, pp. 19-21.
Also, when I was at Fort Garry outside Winnipeg a few years
back (a great place to visit) they had an original York Boat
on display.
Allen Chronister

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:04:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Hats Where?

Joe,

I didn't exactly ask where I might get a beaver hat, I was just looking for a
place that illustrated STYLES of hats from the period so that I might show
people what kinds of hats where made from the  untold thousands of beaver that
were harvested by the Mountaineers. The web site that Jon suggested was right
on the money for what I was looking for. And thank you Vic for the suggestion
also.

Todd Glover

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #246
*******************************

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