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hist_text-digest       Monday, February 15 1999       Volume 01 : Number 239




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:29:50 -0800 (PST)
From: linda lawyer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware

Where can one obtain good quality tin ware?  The things we have
ordered were junk.  The coffee pot would never have held up on an open
fire. We sent it back. If some one has a good source please let me
know.
Readers might want to read the Fall 98 Museum of the Fur Trade
Quarterly...Mystery of the Wasted Meat.  There is some real good
information on the buffalo trade.  Thanks, Keith



- ---Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>
> Ok, here it is.  The Rendezvous Report is published by Marlis Simms,
> editor, Box 457, Glorieta,NM 87535.
> My research was thru the Graniteware Society and phone calls to Evelyn
> Welsh who is considered to be The expert on the subject.  Read the
whole
> article, but here are the main points.
> Enamiling has been an art form since it's development in ancient China
> and Egypt.  In the 1850's it went from art to commerce.
> In 1799 Sven Rinman obtained a patent for two methods of enameling
> kitchen utinsels.  In 1839 Thomas and Charles Clarke applied for an
enameling
> patent.  Both Clarke and Rinman patents were European.
> The earliest American patent is to Charles Stumer in 1848.  Another to
> George Holley for "The Improvment in Enameling Cast Iron in 1857.
Enameling
> to the 1850's was done on cast iron, not tin ware.  The Niedringhaus
> Brothers began stamping out tinware in 1862 and got a patent in 1876
for "The
> Improvment of Enameling Sheet-Iron Ware".
> The only way enanelware could have made it to the fur trade would have
> had to have been European imports and I have never seen any lists of
such
> imports and I have not seen any lists of enamelware on goods either
going to
> Rendezvous or to fur trade posts.
> If anyone can come up with some documentation that would differ from
> this, I would appreciate seeing it, but this is what I have found so
far and
> it is not based on assumptions or conjecture.
> Considering the American patent dates and Army issues during the Civil
> War that list tin ware rather than enamelware is why I made the
statement
> that it would even be a stretch for use in Civil War reenactments.
> So I will reiterate my statement that "there was no enamelware used
> during the fur trade".  Not even William Drummond Stewart's outfit
lists
> enamelware and if anybody would have had it he would, especially at
that late
> date in the fur trade.
> So if someone on this list can prove by research that what I have
found
> is wrong, please do so.  In the meqantime I will stich to tin,
copper or
> castiron.  I KNOW these are correct.  Don Keas
>
>
>
>

==


Keith and Linda Lawyer
[e-mail]



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:27:47 -0600
From: "Douglas  Hepner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post

    Many Indians trapped also. Not just the whites. The whites may have
exploited that, but the facts are they trapped, and hunted for furs also. I
have spent a lot of time researching the history of native Americans
(particularly plains). They were just as profit minded as the rest. I
beleive that Indians (as well as the trappers) used more of the animals
they killed and waisted less out of necessity for life. I think a lot of
this misconseption is T.V. related. I hope I don't offend anyone with this
note but research this and you will come to the same conclusion.

"Dull Hawk"


- ----------
> From: Salvatore P. Patti <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:42 PM
>
> Thank you for your input... I guess I really meant how people just waste
> things like Animals... I read somewhere that after the White Man come
here..
> Over 1,000,000 Buffalo where killed and over 10,000,000 Beaver.... I do
be
> leave that's the right numbers... I'm sorry I be leave in the true old
> way....( take only what you need).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
> To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
> Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>
>
> >Sal - I admire your sentiments, but have to disagree about the lack of
> >furs.  Not only did silk spell the end, but also the Nutria from So
> America.
> > They were very numerous and cheaper to export than the beaver here.
> >Lack of furs was not what caused the demise of the beaver fur trade.
Plain
> >old economics.
> >
> >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
> >
> >Salvatore P. Patti wrote:
> >>Rick,
> >>What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur
> >traders
> >>was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then
> >fall.
> >>If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the
> >Indians
> >>did, There would have been more animals and the business would have
> >lasted a
> >>hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I
> >feel
> >>to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like
I
> >>think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....
> >>
> >>        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great
> >and
> >>noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians
> >toke
> >>what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking
> >I'm
> >>truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
> >>Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in
reading
> >>this ....
> >>                                Sal______
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
> >>To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
> >>Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
> >>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>
> >>
> >>Henry,
> >>While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with
some.
> >>"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in
> >the
> >>Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
> >>fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than
the
> >>beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the
> >price
> >>per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short
> >years
> >>earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity
(BEAVER),
> >it
> >>was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
> >>beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
> >>(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe
> >trade'
> >>making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
> >>industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
> >>definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.
> >>
> >>Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the
> >'company'
> >>man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm
> >struck
> >>with how many different companies and trapping associations in which
> >these
> >>individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and
> >Smith,
> >>then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with
> >Jim
> >>and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur
Co..
> > To
> >>and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to
and
> >>from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville
> >jumping
> >>in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no
> >more
> >>than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.
> >While
> >>seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they
were
> >>managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper
> >vs
> >>company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I
> >have
> >>a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and
a
> >few
> >>others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess
> >what
> >>I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>RFC822 header
> >>-----------------------------------
> >>
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> >>From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
> >>To: <[e-mail]>
> >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
> >>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
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>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 06:59:05 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post

Larry,
Not seeing the show its hard to reply to your question, but have read that
the trains coming from back east with the gentlemen shooters were packed.
According to Wallace Kansas old timers, for $10.00 one person leaving
Chicago could travel to Walace, shoot a buffalo, travel back to Chicago
pickup a green robe, all within a work week. A friend that raises buffalo in
Wallace has several dumps on his property that are on raised ground where
these people would stand to shoot from, he has found unbelieveable amounts
of old brass cases from the Sharpes to Henry rimfires, plus a truck load of
lead soldered tin cans. They would have full blown parties while they were
putting down these animals. According to some reports there would be several
trains waiting for the return train to clear the track on single spur lines.
For Wallace Kansas it died when the buffalo did and now its just a small
dried up little town, the rail spur was even pulled up after a ten year
period.

I agree we take too much of the stuff we see in the movies and on TV as
being correct, they doll it up to get ratings, real life events are pretty
boring most of the time.

Buck

- -----Original Message-----
From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post


>Buck,
>  Way to go !  I appreciate the info.  I know my parents talk about the
>effects of undulan fever [I'm not sure of that spelling] when they were
>kids during the depression. My Dad was born in 1927. You are exactly right
>about humans getting it from drinking milk that came from infected cows.
>What about the theory that was put forth in the program that states there
>was no possible way that much ammunition could have been hauled out there ?
>I'm not claiming to be a expert on the subject, just repeating what I saw
>on the program. I'll do some more research on Bucellosis. I have the
>material here to do that. I should have done that before I shot my mouth
>off. I just took the program as fact. A mistake I think we are all guilty
>of from time to time. If you get any more info on it please pass it on.
>  This must be the second mistake I've made. The first time I was mistaken.
>I just thought I'd made a mistake. [ Just funnin guys ! ]
>Pendleton
>
>----------
>> From: Barry Conner <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 6:57 PM
>>
>> "Brucella melitensis", "Brucella abortus" & "Brucella suis" are three
>types
>> of organisms that started in Malta and British soldiers on that island
>> developed a disease later called Malta fever. Its related to contagious
>> abortion of cattle, like mentioned. It wasn't discovered in America until
>> 1900 in dairy cattle, that's how humans get it with drinking and using
>milk.
>>
>> "I hate to burst your bubble", but according to Colorado State University
>> before 1927 this disease was regarded as a curiosity fever when found in
>> humans and no records of it west of the Missisippi in domestic or wild
>> animals until after 1912. A little later than when the herds went down.
>>
>> I called a professor that teaches at this vet college and he had seen the
>> same program and felt the information wasn't correct according to the
>years
>> and time frames mentioned. He did say they had purchased a copy of the
>film
>> and found many flaws, but didn't say much more than what I have written.
>>
>> Buck
>> _______________
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: larry pendleton <[e-mail]>
>> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
>> Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 11:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post
>>
>>
>> >I hate to burst your bubble, but there is another theory on the demise
>of
>> >the buffalo. A couple of years ago there was a PBS documentary which
>dealt
>> >with the subject. On it there was a historian [I can't recall his name]
>who
>> >had the all the numbers and documentation to support the theory that it
>was
>> >not physically possible to haul enough powder and lead to the plains to
>> >exterminate the then massive herds of buffalo. His theory also was that
>the
>> >buffalo herds had grown so large that disease had become a major problem
>in
>> >the herds. The disease was BRUCELLOSIS.  It is a reproductive disease
>that
>> >causes the  females to abort their calves at about the middle of their
>> >gestation. It is also a very contagious disease. .......................
>>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 07:05:32 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-list: Re: Response to Heny's Post

I just repeated what I was told by CSU personal, seeing how the have dealt
with problems in the Rockies since the early 1920's, I would think they
would have some knowledge of what was going on in the area, believe they
were rated as one of the top 5 veterinarian colleges in the states a few
years ago!

Buck
_________
- -----Original Message-----
From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 7:44 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan-list: Re: Response to Heny's Post


>Barry,
>
>Agricultural Research Magazine says that Brucellosis has been
>"A bane of cattle producers since the 1840's".
>
>USDA Animal Plant Health Inspection Service says "Brucellosis
>caused devastating losses to farmers in the US over the last century".
>
>I have in front of me at this moment a book entitled "The Buffalo
>Producers Guide To Management and Marketing". It says that
>historically speaking there are " four major diseases that domestic
>stock transmitted to bison, causing epidemic losses to the bison
population:
>hemorrhagic septicemia, brucellosis, malignant anthrax,
>and tuberculosis."
>
>It goes on to say that ,"Other enviromental hazards are quicksand,
>bogs, flood, drought, raging fires, lightning, hurricane (it says
hurricane)
>drowning, blizzards, Or frozen ice over snow causing
>starvation. Iced rivers and lakes are particular problems because
>partially thawed or newly formed ice may hold the first and second buffalo
>but with the herd moving as a close unit the combined weight
>eventually breaks the ice and traps many animals"
>
>One other interesting thing this book says is that " The stampede
>is the "fatal flaw" of the bison . That instinct was and is today a major
>cause of death and injury. In the natural balance of things perhaps
>it was intended more to limit the herds than for the survival ."
>
>All this being said, personally I feel that man and his rifle had to have
>been one of, if not the primary exterminator of the bison.
>A good book on the subject is "The Great Buffalo Hunt" by
>Wayne Gard. I enjoyed it very much.
>
>I might add that my wife is a veterinarian .
>
>From the nortwoods, ( Northwoods Veterinary clinic )
>
>Tony Clark
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:58:33 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware

Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.  What did
they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what about coffee
pots?

                        TrapRJoe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:53:28 -0600
From: "stitchinscot" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware

One word.........tin.........Look in muzzleloader mag for suppliers.
Long John  #l677
- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware


>Since they didn't have enamel ware and coffee and tea were drank.  What did
>they use for coffee pots?  I have seen copper tea pots, but what about
coffee
>pots?
>
> TrapRJoe
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:07:33 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Graniteware

Copper was used to make coffeepots as well. Check out places like Goose Bay
workshops (Peter Goebels)
<A HREF="http://www.teleport.com/~walking/goosebay/">Goose Bay Workshops</A>
and also Westminster Forge.  They both produce beautiful, useable, destined to
be heirloom goods.      'Barney Fife'

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:20:52 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rendezvous

Sal, Heres a few:
Feb 20-22 Jefferson County Long Rifle Rendezvous, Ramseytown, PA.  Contact Dan
Garvey 814.849.9671 or Dave Shields 814.856.2503
June 24-27 Primitive Rendezvous, Emlenton, PA.  Contact Pete Smelter
412.486.5864
September 11-18 Great North American Rendezvous, Ft. Loudoun, PA. Contact
www.cvn.net/~fortloudon/1998prog.htm

A couple of very handy publications for finding events are:
Smoke & Fire News PO 166 Grand Rapids, OH 43522 $18.00 for 12 issues.
Territorial Dispatch #324 Livestock Exchange Building, 4701 Marion Street,
Denver, CO 80216
Both have web sites as well.  Hope this helps.  'Barney Fife'

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:16:26 -0500
From: greg n bosen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men on History Channel

do you happen to know the time the the showing???

greg b



On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:05:59 -0600 "Henry B. Crawford"
<[e-mail]> writes:
>Friends,
>
>I got a call from Brian Coughlin, one of the producers from Greystone
>Communications.  They do documentaries for the History Channel (Real
>West,
>Civil War Journal, Tales of the Gun)  He said that the program some of
>us
>participated in shooting last fall is scheduled for air on Saturday,
>March
>20th.  I think they're simply calling it "The Mountain Men." They are
>using
>me as a "talking head," along with Bob Utley and a couple of others.
>On
>behalf of Greystone, my thanks to Todd, Dean, and others who
>participated.
>Brian also told me that they got Pernell Roberts to narrate.  They
>needed a
>distinctive, familiar voice that didn't cost too much.  Sam Elliot
>(their
>first choice) was too costly.  I, and a couple of others, sent them
>dozens
>of suggestions, and they chose Roberts.  Look for it.  I hope it meets
>with
>your approval.
>
>Cheers,
>HBC
>
>****************************************
>Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
>Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
>[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
>806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
>              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
>******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:12:34 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Men on History Channel

I've been told it will air in the 8 or 9 p.m. slot on March 20th.

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:58:42 -0500
From: "Mill, Kirk" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rendezvous

Please, stop yelling. I haven't even had my first cup of coffee. If you want
a list of events in PA, you should join the PA Federation of Black Powder
Shooters. They publish a booklet listing the events for all the clubs for
the year.
PA Federation Of Black Powder Shooters
PO Box 356
New Cumberland, PA 17070-0356
One year Membership $10.00


> Does anyone know of any Rendezvous on the East Coast??? ( New York,
> Pennsylvania, New Jersey )
> Peace Be With You Always!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:32:07 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth

Well said! The Voyageurs are an often-overlooked material culture for those
who think they are only interested in the "free trapper"!
Pat Quilter.

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 12:41 PM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth


Pat Quilter <[e-mail]> wrote:
>In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
available,
>and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth
in
>the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero.

I apologize for picking nits, but in fact oilcloth was much used in the
Rocky Mountain fur trade before the Mountain Man era. Voyageur canoes were
equipped with oilcloths to protect the cargo from spray. These oilcloths
_may_ have been used as shelters at the end of the day (draped over the edge

of an overturned canoe--see Frances Ann Hopkins' painting _Voyageurs at
Dawn_ to get the idea). I suspect that the oilcloths covered the cargo at
the end of the day, and the voyageurs used the canoe sails for shelters.

One other example, from the heart of the Rockies--on his 1793 trip from
Peace River to the Pacific Ocean, North West Company partner Alexander
Mackenzie notes that one day his men used an oilcloth as a 'screen' during a

brief rainshower.

Your humble & obedient servant,
Angela Gottfred
[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0800
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction

Regarding the assertion that it would have required an unreasonable amount
of ammunition to have directly killed off the buffalo:
Let's play with the old calculator here. I will use round numbers in all the
following assumptions, just to get a feel for the magnitude of the problem:
Assume, 70 million buffalo killed in 20 years.
Assume a 1-oz lead bullet expended per buffalo (rather large but allows for
misses).
This requires 70,000,000 oz of lead, or 4.375 million lbs, or 2187 tons.
At first glance, this does seem like a LOT of lead. Dividing by 20 years,
it's109 tons a year.
Still seems like a lot, but way less than one train load.
What if each market hunter carried 100lbs of lead (with requisite powder),
which obviously assumes a wagon-based expedition? Then we would have 2187
hunters in action for 20 years.
All these numbers "seem" rather high, but certainly POSSIBLE.
Also, note that the weight of robes carried back clearly outweighs the
ammunition by 300 to 1 or more, so there's no way to claim that 19th century
transportation systems were not up to the task.
All this said, if disease was a factor, you can bet the rotting carcasses
contributed to it.
I didn't see the show or the exact nature of the claim that it couldn't have
happened, but sometimes you wonder if these historians ever break out a
calculator.
Humbly submitted
Patrick Quilter

------------------------------

Date: 15 Feb 99 15:11:07 -0700
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction

Well said.  Not to mention the fact that all the supplies were brought in
on a regular basis, not once a year or so.  Also, from reports I have
read, the army furnished a lot of ammunition to the hunters knowing to get
rid of the buffs would get rid of the Indians.  Makes you wonder if the PHD
historians have any idea what the real world is.

DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants

Pat Quilter wrote:
>Regarding the assertion that it would have required an unreasonable
amount
>of ammunition to have directly killed off the buffalo:
>Let's play with the old calculator here. I will use round numbers in all
the
>following assumptions, just to get a feel for the magnitude of the
problem:
>Assume, 70 million buffalo killed in 20 years.
>Assume a 1-oz lead bullet expended per buffalo (rather large but allows
for
>misses).
>This requires 70,000,000 oz of lead, or 4.375 million lbs, or 2187 tons.
>At first glance, this does seem like a LOT of lead. Dividing by 20
years,
>it's109 tons a year.
>Still seems like a lot, but way less than one train load.
>What if each market hunter carried 100lbs of lead (with requisite
powder),
>which obviously assumes a wagon-based expedition? Then we would have
2187
>hunters in action for 20 years.
>All these numbers "seem" rather high, but certainly POSSIBLE.
>Also, note that the weight of robes carried back clearly outweighs the
>ammunition by 300 to 1 or more, so there's no way to claim that 19th
century
>transportation systems were not up to the task.
>All this said, if disease was a factor, you can bet the rotting
carcasses
>contributed to it.
>I didn't see the show or the exact nature of the claim that it couldn't
have
>happened, but sometimes you wonder if these historians ever break out a
>calculator.
>Humbly submitted
>Patrick Quilter
>
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
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>From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>To: "Mtnman Forum (E-mail)" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0800
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:22:11 -0600
From: "northwoods" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction

Another aspect of the disappearance of the buffalo has to do with
the fact that there normal patterns of existence had been altered
so greatly by the inflow of people from the east.
The immense herds that had existed at one time were there
because the balance of nature enabled them to be there. The need for grass
and water kept them on the move much of the time.They also, to
a certain extent, had seasonal migrations.
It seems possible to me that when the herds began to be reduced
in numbers and the areas where they could go and be left unmolested
became fewer and fewer, the herds may have been unable to cope
with this.
Sometimes its easier to upset the balance of nature than it would
appear.

From the northwoods,

Tony Clark
- -----Original Message-----
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction


>Well said.  Not to mention the fact that all the supplies were brought in
>on a regular basis, not once a year or so.  Also, from reports I have
>read, the army furnished a lot of ammunition to the hunters knowing to get
>rid of the buffs would get rid of the Indians.  Makes you wonder if the PHD
>historians have any idea what the real world is.
>
>DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>
>Pat Quilter wrote:
>>Regarding the assertion that it would have required an unreasonable
>amount
>>of ammunition to have directly killed off the buffalo:
>>Let's play with the old calculator here. I will use round numbers in all
>the
>>following assumptions, just to get a feel for the magnitude of the
>problem:
>>Assume, 70 million buffalo killed in 20 years.
>>Assume a 1-oz lead bullet expended per buffalo (rather large but allows
>for
>>misses).
>>This requires 70,000,000 oz of lead, or 4.375 million lbs, or 2187 tons.
>>At first glance, this does seem like a LOT of lead. Dividing by 20
>years,
>>it's109 tons a year.
>>Still seems like a lot, but way less than one train load.
>>What if each market hunter carried 100lbs of lead (with requisite
>powder),
>>which obviously assumes a wagon-based expedition? Then we would have
>2187
>>hunters in action for 20 years.
>>All these numbers "seem" rather high, but certainly POSSIBLE.
>>Also, note that the weight of robes carried back clearly outweighs the
>>ammunition by 300 to 1 or more, so there's no way to claim that 19th
>century
>>transportation systems were not up to the task.
>>All this said, if disease was a factor, you can bet the rotting
>carcasses
>>contributed to it.
>>I didn't see the show or the exact nature of the claim that it couldn't
>have
>>happened, but sometimes you wonder if these historians ever break out a
>>calculator.
>>Humbly submitted
>>Patrick Quilter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>RFC822 header
>>-----------------------------------
>>
>>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
>ESMTP
>>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE6D80B00C6; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:07:09 MDT
>>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>> id 10CUFz-0000so-00
>> for [e-mail]; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:04:39 -0700
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>> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>> id 10CUFx-0000sc-00
>> for [e-mail]; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:04:37 -0700
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>> by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>> id 10CUFx-0003up-00
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>>Received: by NT4_SERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
>> id <DTQ5L53M>; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:06:12 -0800
>>Message-ID: <04059F2BE306D2118F1C00A0C90CD6704514EC@NT4_SERVER>
>>From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>>To: "Mtnman Forum (E-mail)" <[e-mail]>
>>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
>>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0800
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
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>> charset="iso-8859-1"
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>>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:33:40 -0700
From: "Barry Conner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction

Tony,
I would think this is closer an idea than any mentioned so far, look what
happens to the deer and elk herds as new developments spring up. Some move
and others just disappear. In Colorado we are having problems with the
decline of the mule deer with loosing their summer and winter ranges, as
well as developing lung problems with dirty air from all the vehicles. Sad

Buck
_________
- -----Original Message-----
From: northwoods <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction


>Another aspect of the disappearance of the buffalo has to do with
>the fact that there normal patterns of existence had been altered
>so greatly by the inflow of people from the east.
>The immense herds that had existed at one time were there
>because the balance of nature enabled them to be there. The need for grass
>and water kept them on the move much of the time.They also, to
>a certain extent, had seasonal migrations.
>It seems possible to me that when the herds began to be reduced
>in numbers and the areas where they could go and be left unmolested
>became fewer and fewer, the herds may have been unable to cope
>with this.
>Sometimes its easier to upset the balance of nature than it would
>appear.
>
>From the northwoods,
>
>Tony Clark
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
>To: hist_text <[e-mail]>
>Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 3:53 PM
>Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
>
>
>>Well said.  Not to mention the fact that all the supplies were brought in
>>on a regular basis, not once a year or so.  Also, from reports I have
>>read, the army furnished a lot of ammunition to the hunters knowing to get
>>rid of the buffs would get rid of the Indians.  Makes you wonder if the
PHD
>>historians have any idea what the real world is.
>>
>>DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants
>>
>>Pat Quilter wrote:
>>>Regarding the assertion that it would have required an unreasonable
>>amount
>>>of ammunition to have directly killed off the buffalo:
>>>Let's play with the old calculator here. I will use round numbers in all
>>the
>>>following assumptions, just to get a feel for the magnitude of the
>>problem:
>>>Assume, 70 million buffalo killed in 20 years.
>>>Assume a 1-oz lead bullet expended per buffalo (rather large but allows
>>for
>>>misses).
>>>This requires 70,000,000 oz of lead, or 4.375 million lbs, or 2187 tons.
>>>At first glance, this does seem like a LOT of lead. Dividing by 20
>>years,
>>>it's109 tons a year.
>>>Still seems like a lot, but way less than one train load.
>>>What if each market hunter carried 100lbs of lead (with requisite
>>powder),
>>>which obviously assumes a wagon-based expedition? Then we would have
>>2187
>>>hunters in action for 20 years.
>>>All these numbers "seem" rather high, but certainly POSSIBLE.
>>>Also, note that the weight of robes carried back clearly outweighs the
>>>ammunition by 300 to 1 or more, so there's no way to claim that 19th
>>century
>>>transportation systems were not up to the task.
>>>All this said, if disease was a factor, you can bet the rotting
>>carcasses
>>>contributed to it.
>>>I didn't see the show or the exact nature of the claim that it couldn't
>>have
>>>happened, but sometimes you wonder if these historians ever break out a
>>>calculator.
>>>Humbly submitted
>>>Patrick Quilter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>RFC822 header
>>>-----------------------------------
>>>
>>>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with
>>ESMTP
>>>  (SMTPD32-4.03) id AE6D80B00C6; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:07:09 MDT
>>>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1)
>>> id 10CUFz-0000so-00
>>> for [e-mail]; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:04:39 -0700
>>>Received: from [198.60.22.22] (helo=mail.xmission.com)
>>> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>>> id 10CUFx-0000sc-00
>>> for [e-mail]; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:04:37 -0700
>>>Received: from [207.168.191.2] (helo=mail.qsc.net)
>>> by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1)
>>> id 10CUFx-0003up-00
>>> for [e-mail]; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:04:37 -0700
>>>Received: by NT4_SERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
>>> id <DTQ5L53M>; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:06:12 -0800
>>>Message-ID: <04059F2BE306D2118F1C00A0C90CD6704514EC@NT4_SERVER>
>>>From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
>>>To: "Mtnman Forum (E-mail)" <[e-mail]>
>>>Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Buffalo extinction
>>>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:03 -0800
>>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>>X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)
>>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>>> charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>Sender: [e-mail]
>>>Precedence: bulk
>>>Reply-To: [e-mail]
>>>X-UIDL: 915555823
>>>Status: U
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #239
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