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hist_text-digest       Friday, February 12 1999       Volume 01 : Number 235




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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:32:01 -0800
From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: SORRY SORRY SORRY

I have to appologize about the last post from me about the magic trick.
I meant to send that to someone else. Please disregard!!!
Very Sorry!!


"Pockets"
A.K.A.
Matt Mitchell
Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders
Moscow, Idaho
[e-mail]

  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---"
  General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:01:55 -0600
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes & stuff...

>Your humble & obedient servant,
>Angela Gottfred
>
>P.S. I don't know Spanish, but Spanish & French are related languages. Is
>there a Spanish word 'capote' which is adding to the confusion?
>[e-mail]

Angela, and friends,
There is a Spanish word capote (pron. "ca-po-tay"), which means "cape".
There was an old pre-Texas Republic stock farm in east Texas (founded in
1834 from a Mex. land grant) called El Capote on the Guadalupe River, named
for a cape-shaped land formations nearby.  I researched the farm, and wrote
a history and furnishing plan for a ca. 1840 log structure from the farm,
which now resides at the Ranching Heritage Center here in Lubbock.  I still
get calls and letters from descendents of its founders with fresh
information.

Vaya con Dios, compadres!
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******

------------------------------

Date: 11 Feb 99 20:19:27 -0700
From: Phyllis and Don Keas <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Clean up

I like the last messages saying we ought to clean up the traders.  I have
been hearing that as well as cleaning up the National Rendezvous in
general for some time now, and from quite a few people.  That is something I
really think we need to the point that there are quite a few alternate vous
in the planning to run at the same time and vicinity as some vous that
have been in place for many years.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:32:06 -0800
From: Laurel huber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth

Most waxed linen thread is about five strand.  For canvas work that's about right,
especially if you are making seams  (two or three thicknesses of material) or adding
reenforcing at the corners (up to six thicknesses of fabric).  For shirting or
similar thickness fabric, unwind the thread to three strands and use a smaller
needle.  Also, if you're making a square to use as a "fly", don't sew on loops.
Just make a 5/8" strap, fold it in the middle and attach it to the fly at the fold
(a reenforcement at this point is good if you're not on a seam.).  This gives you
greater options when you set-up.  Sometimes you need to tie that connection instead
of staking it out.

Tom Roberts wrote:

> Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C had used
> oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will continue
> to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with some
> sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame over a
> rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might make.
> I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that ordinary
> cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather heavy waxed
> linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty big
> holes. Any ideas?
>
> Tom
>
> Pat Quilter wrote:
>
> > In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically available,
> > and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth in
> > the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references to
> > portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with blankets,
> > skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such as
> > tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a prepared
> > shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
> > Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
> > prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
> > more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions of
> > rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
> > animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
> > blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we consolidate
> > our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
> > Humbly submitted,
> > Pat Quilter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
> >
> > I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
> > of oilcloth
> > for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
> > alternative
> > to canvas.  Any thoughts?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:50:47 -0500
From: "Fred A. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes & stuff...

"Henry B. Crawford" wrote:
>
> >Your humble & obedient servant,
> >Angela Gottfred
> >
> >P.S. I don't know Spanish, but Spanish & French are related languages. Is
> >there a Spanish word 'capote' which is adding to the confusion?
> >[e-mail]
>
> Angela, and friends,
> There is a Spanish word capote (pron. "ca-po-tay"), which means "cape".
> There was an old pre-Texas Republic stock farm in east Texas (founded in
> 1834 from a Mex. land grant) called El Capote on the Guadalupe River, named
> for a cape-shaped land formations nearby.  I researched the farm, and wrote
> a history and furnishing plan for a ca. 1840 log structure from the farm,
> which now resides at the Ranching Heritage Center here in Lubbock.  I still
> get calls and letters from descendents of its founders with fresh
> information.

Interesting!  'Didn't know about this nor TX Tech Univ. there, even
though my folks live there now.

Fred

- --
"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some!
http://www.best.com/~capn/thunder/willy.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:03:17 -0800
From: "G. Pedro Kinner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: SORRY SORRY SORRY

Thought it was great..  Pedro in Tahoe I forwarded it to everyone I know

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:33:39 -0600
From: "Henry B. Crawford" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: What Period, and What is Period Correct??  This is a long one, folks

>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:29:19 -0700 (MST)
>From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
>Subject: MtMan-List: What Period, and What is Period Correct??
>
>What period of time do you call it, I know the Period just before the
>Revolution
>ary War was called the Long Hunter Period, that came the war with England,
>we won
> became the U.S.A. the original 13 colonies became 13 States, and soon the
>Caroli-
>nas, Tennessee, & Kentucky started becoming inhabited   Buy a lot of
>people and t
>he are started growing towns, so when this was happening that being the
>settlemen
>t of Carolinas, Tennessee, & Kentucky.  What period of history does the
>Muzzle lo
>ading community call this, and about when was it happening 1780's or later?
>
>B

We historians like to look at things in the broadest possible context
because history exists not in a vaccuum, but in a network of interrelated
events, shaped by forces and personalities seemingly far removed from the
occurrances closer to home.  For me, "period" in the context of this
listserv means the classic fur trade period.   Defined, "fur trade" is the
era when the harvesting of furs and hides for commercial profit was a
mainstay of revenue for individuals, corporations, and nations alike, and
when the foundations of some of our most impressive family fortunes are
established (Astors, Chouteaus, both of which are very much around)
Historians disagree on the dates by which the period is defined, and it's a
bit difficult for me, not being a scholar of Canadian history (which must
be included in any discussion of the North American fur trade.  To take a
stab, I might say either the year 1670, when the Hudsons Bay Company was
chartered, or 1763, at the end of the Seven Years War (F&I for Americans)
which firmly established economic and political spheres of influence of the
British (in which I include Colonial Americans) and the French in North
America.  The Spanish (before 1821) engaged in a fur trade in their
northern territories (the American Southwest), but never on the scale of
the French, British, and Americans, because they were having a difficult
time just holding on to their possessions world wide.  The 17th and 18th
centuries for the Spanish were years of acute economic and political
decline.

The end of the American fur trade is likewise debatable.  Some argue that
the fur trade never really ended (I'm inclined to agree), but for our
purposes here, I prefer to call it somewhere in the early to mid 1850s,
which rightfully includes the era of the buffalo robe trading post.  The
robe trade, an integral part of the western fur trade scene, seemed to peak
at Fort Union on the Missouri River in the decade just prior to the Civil
War.  (BTW, I think the buffalo robe trading post era begins in 1807 with
the establishment of Fort Lisa on the Missouri.)  I am not alone in this
assessment.

Having said that, there are some sub-periods which are defined, such as the
"Rocky Mountain Fur Trade era, beginning about 1806 when Colter leaves the
Lewis and Clark expedition and becomes a full time Rocky Mountain trapper
and trader.  Many use 1840 as a cut off date because that was the last year
of the Rocky Mountain Rendezvous, although beaver trapping certainly went
beyond that year.  I prefer not to call that year the end of the RMFT era,
because 1840 was merely when the Fur Trading companies abandoned one method
of trading in favor of another.  The Rendezvous was a failed venture,
although it took them 16 years to figure out that they weren't really
making acceptable profits.  The practice of freighting loads of goods deep
into the mountains to trade simply wasn't very practical.  After 1840, fur
trade corporate leaders decided to go back to the system which worked best,
the trading post, where the rivers could be utilized for relatively
inexpensive transport  especially since by this time, steamboats were a
common sight on the river.  By 1840, fur trade freighting overland from St
Louis was unnecessary.  In the Southwest and Southern Plains, the trading
post had always been the primary vehicle of the fur trade, and was not
abandoned for the rendezvous, although many trappers and traders associated
with the Southwest fur trade frequented the annual rendezvous (Kit Carson,
Ewing Young, Louis Vasquez, for example).

I think to use the year 1840 as an arbitrary cut off date for the "fur
trade" is an error, because there is still a viable fur trade after that
date, and by cutting off at 1840, one ignores some of the best post fur
trading centers like Taos, Santa Fe, Bents Fort, and Fort Union.

I think people use 1840 because that is the end of the Rebndezvous era,
however, if one was to be truly authentic to the rendezvous era, then one
should insist on limiting clothing and equipment to the era between 1825
and 1840.  Period.  Otherwise, recognize the historical truth, that 1840
represents, for a handful of fur trade executives,  merely a shift in the
ways of doing business, not the end of an entire industry.

Just as an aside, for those who may not be aware (fur trade history
veterans, please bear with me) the classic image of a buckskin-clad, free
spirited mountain man, going his own way, enjoying an idyllic, solitary
existance is pure myth.  The typical Rocky Mountain fur trapper was a
corporate employee, a laborer, if you will; the low man on a very tall
totem pole, had a fairly low standard of living, and was very much at the
mercy of corporate investors who for the most part never saw, nor never
intended to see the Rocky Mountains.  By and large, his ultimate superiors
were corporate executives, and investors (merchants, mill and factory
owners, and bankers).  He was, by and large, very much like a millworker in
a large steel plant, and could no more influence company policy that a
clerk in a mailroom.  Free trappers, in many ways had it even worse,
because, although they did not have superiors to answer to, they were on
their own, and didn't have the economic protection of company employment,
such as it was, and had to outfit himself and pay all of his own expenses.
The free trapper was at the mercy of the fur market, and endured incredibly
stiff competition from organized fur companies.  Historically speaking, the
mountain man was not a particularly romantic figure in his own time and
place, (until he wrote his memoirs)  As stated in Bob Utley's book, the
mountain man contributed significantly to the development of the
trans-Mississippi West, but as Bob, and Fred Gowans, I think, would admit,
that was all inadvertant.  He was merely doing his job, applying skills and
knowledge learned from years of "being there," and used those skills to
pursue other complimentary careers, like guiding, freighting, and
negotiating with the tribes, after trapping lost its attraction for him.

See, I told you we like to look at the big picture.

Commentary welcomed, but since I'm on digest, don't expect an immediate
reply.  I've been a Fur Trade reenactor and 'skinner for over 18 years.  I
guess as a professional historian I can put the mountain man and the fur
trade in their proper historical perspectives and as a 'skinner I can get
away with it.  :-)  I expect this to be ripped to shreads.  Had I been
afraid of that I never would have written it.  If anyone would like to
concur or refute my assessments, please do.  Let's share our collective
knowledge.  Maybe I missed something.

Till then, Cheers,
HBC

****************************************
Henry B. Crawford    Box 43191
Curator of History    Museum of Texas Tech University
[e-mail]    Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
806/742-2442     FAX [phone]
              Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because It's There  ******

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:21:03 EST
From: Ted A Hart <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Capotes & stuff...

 ca. 1840 log structure from the
>farm,
>> which now resides at the Ranching Heritage Center here in Lubbock.
>I still
>> get calls and letters from descendents of its founders with fresh
>> information.

I just found out that there is a company that does "rescue" sort of thing
with old historic log cabins along with pier and beam houses out in
Fredericksburg.  If interested please post on this site and I'll be glad
to put the website on here.

Ted

___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:46:05 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What Period, and What is Period Correct??  This is a long one,folks

In a message dated 2/11/99 8:41:48 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< The typical Rocky Mountain fur trapper was a
corporate employee, a laborer, if you will; the low man on a very tall
totem pole, had a fairly low standard of living, and was very much at the
mercy of corporate investors who for the most part never saw, nor never
intended to see the Rocky Mountains.>>

Ah, but what a tough individual he was.  And what a great  environment he
lived in for the most part.  Clean, pure, no roads , no fences, no poles stuck
in the ground, fish and game abounding in many areas.  Many of these self
reliant guys would not return to the 'States' for love or money.  I believe
they loved their life. While I'm sure some of them were rotters, I admire the
'mountain man'.
        Dick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:27:43 +0000
From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trade blanket

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I'll wade in on this topic.  I used to go to rendezvous and find the =
'remotest' camping spot available.  I'd visit with a few friends and =
that was it.  One year we decided to set out a trade blanket.  It was a =
very positive experience.  I met more people, had some of the best =
discussions and enjoyed myself more at that event than those other go =
hide events.  Now as far as contents.  What I like to find myself are =
usually raw materials.  I like to make most things myself, so I like to =
look for period materials.  Along with everyone else I like authentic =
and well crafted plunder.  The gourd canteens sound like an example of =
this but try just some gourds.....=20
  Good Luck
    Rick

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:07:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Enamel Cookware and dishes

I see a lot of enamel cookware at rendezvous and have been told it is dated to
1840.  At others I have been to they say it isn't to be seen.  Just what is
the proper date for enamel dishes and cookware?  If it was around, just how
far west?

                            TrapRJoe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:25:02 -0500
From: "sean" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth

There is a water proofing treatment I have used called COTTON PROOF from
Nikwax.  It is made especially for waterproofing cotton canvas tents.  You
can mix it and brush it on, or you can put it in the washing machine for
clothing such as Hunting Frocks, etc...   For my "tarp", I used a heavy
painters drop cloth cut to a 10x10 and had the edges "seamed" to prevent
raveling.  I added a few gromets in each corner and the center, and about
every 3 feet along each side.  The waterproofing works great, and so does
the tarp...

Addison Miller

- -----Original Message-----
From: Pat Quilter <[e-mail]>
To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Oilcloth


>Unless you use a glover's needle (with cutting edges) the thick needle and
>thread should just push aside the fibers, leaving a fairly tight seal. Your
>tie straps will naturally be sewn along a short distance to spread the
>strain evenly. You will get some drippage at these points, but only a few
>drops. I assume you have seen the trick where you take a small rock or
>musket ball, poke it into the cloth forming a little pouch, and tie a cord
>or thong firmly around the "neck" to use as tie points. I do this and use a
>plain old canvas drop cloth with no loops etc. It takes a few minutes extra
>at the camp, but you can put the ties anywhere you want along the edges or
>in the middle. It sounds like you're on the right track overall.
>Pat Quilter
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:04 PM
>To: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>
>
>Well, that's kind of what I was thinking also.  I had an idea that L&C had
>used
>oilcloth but had not seen any later references.  I expect that I will
>continue
>to pursue my first path which is a simple square of light canvas with some
>sewn-on loops that can be configured as a diamond, a fly, an A-frame over a
>rope, a lean-to, and who knows what else a bit of creative rigging might
>make.
>I'm wondering about the right stuff to sew it with.  I'm concerned that
>ordinary
>cotton thread won't withstand much outdoor use.  I have some rather heavy
>waxed
>linen cord but the needle necessary to use that stuff will leave pretty big
>holes. Any ideas?
>
>Tom
>
>
>
>Pat Quilter wrote:
>
>> In my humble opinion (and that's all it is) although historically
>available,
>> and thus theoretically "acceptable" I would bet the occurance of oilcloth
>in
>> the Rocky Mountains during the fur trade was about zero. Such references
>to
>> portable shelters that I can recall mention "bowers" draped with
blankets,
>> skins or the like (and of course, other, semi-permanent structures such
as
>> tipis, forts, etc). It's my impression that trappers did not use a
>prepared
>> shelter, although a few of the most well-equipped expeditions (such as
>> Stewart's) brought simple wedge tents. With all due respect to those who
>> prepare and use oilcloth, I find that simple untreated canvas is lighter,
>> more versatile, and sheds water adequately with a few basic precautions
of
>> rigging. On the few horse outings I've participated in, we used our pack
>> animal mantees as shelters. When back packing, I take a canvas, and 1-2
>> blankets depending on weather. If things turn really snotty, we
>consolidate
>> our stuff and make communal shelters. Trappers did the same.
>> Humbly submitted,
>> Pat Quilter
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Roberts [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:07 PM
>> To: [e-mail]
>> Subject: MtMan-List: Oilcloth
>>
>> I've scoured the archives of this forum and find no reference to the use
>> of oilcloth
>> for shelter, particularly <1820 and am wondering if it is an acceptable
>> alternative
>> to canvas.  Any thoughts?
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:53:54 -0700 (MST)
From: [e-mail] (BRUCE S. DE LIS)
Subject: MtMan-List: The Electronic Trader Hide, or Electronic Rendezvous.

There is now a place on the net where you can now post items that are Traditiona
l Muzzle Loading item, no Inline Stuff please, for sale or trade.

Carl Semencic, has agreed to allow this electronic trading on his
Traditional Muzzle Loading Board, at:  http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/m
bs.cgi/mb106703  (Bookmark this site for future reference.)

Please before you post any item For Sale, or Trade Please Read Carl's, comments a
bout  "Re: NEW Idea" on the Traditional Muzzle Loading Board.  His rules simple r
ules to Traders.

As I think it was great of Carl to allow this Trading Hide to be part of his Mess
age Board.

FYI.

B

- --
"The Price Of Freedom
     Is Not Free"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:50:54 -0500
From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The Electronic Trader Hide, or Electronic Rendezvous.

the web address seems to be down, I am new and would like to say Hello to
everyone.. My name is Salvatore Please just call me Sal. I'm just starting
to get into all this stuff and I'm looking for a place near New Jersey to
buy some Hides...( all types .. with and without hair )
I want to start to make Buckskin shirts and pants, Moc's and Rifle cases...
If anyone know of a place or would like to send me some prices of Hides..
E~Mail me at ( [e-mail] ). Thank you in advance.

- -----Original Message-----
From: BRUCE S. DE LIS <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 6:01 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: The Electronic Trader Hide, or Electronic Rendezvous.


>
>
>There is now a place on the net where you can now post items that are
Traditiona
>l Muzzle Loading item, no Inline Stuff please, for sale or trade.
>
>Carl Semencic, has agreed to allow this electronic trading on his
>Traditional Muzzle Loading Board, at:
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/m
>bs.cgi/mb106703  (Bookmark this site for future reference.)
>
>Please before you post any item For Sale, or Trade Please Read Carl's,
comments a
>bout  "Re: NEW Idea" on the Traditional Muzzle Loading Board.  His rules
simple r
>ules to Traders.
>
>As I think it was great of Carl to allow this Trading Hide to be part of
his Mess
>age Board.
>
>FYI.
>
>B
>
>--
>"The Price Of Freedom
>     Is Not Free"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:15:13 +0000
From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE56AB.410EFC10
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Henry,
While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some. =
 "I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in =
the Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change =
of fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than =
the beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 =
the price per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a =
few short years earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same =
commodity (BEAVER), it was not long before significant sections of the =
Rockies were denuded of beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been =
depleted of sea otter. (Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the =
1860's we see the 'robe trade' making significant depletions in the =
bison herds eventually bring this industry to it's demise.  Is this the =
fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest definition but very distinct from the =
Rocky Mountain fur trade.

Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the =
'company' man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, =
I'm struck with how many different companies and trapping associations =
in which these individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became =
Ashley and Smith, then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and =
Fitzpatrick with Jim and others thrown in there somewhere and this is =
just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..  To and from every Rendezvous, there were =
numerous comings and goings to and from civilization.  We see the =
upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville  jumping in the middle.  My point =
is, many of these so called companies were no more than many of the =
trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.  While seed monies =
were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were managed and =
staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs company =
man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I have a =
harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a =
few others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess =
what I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these =
men. =20

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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE56AB.410EFC10--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:59:52 -0500
From: "Salvatore P. Patti" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post

Rick,
What you wrote makes a lot of senses. But the real fall of the fur traders
was the mass killing of the animals that made the business grow then fall.
If more trappers toke the time and managed the animals the way the Indians
did, There would have been more animals and the business would have lasted a
hell of a lot longer then it did... Or that is just the way I feel??? I feel
to manage the animal is more important the to make a buck... Just like I
think 200lbs of meat is way better then a 8+ point rack on a Deer....

        The so called Hunters are nothing more then killers of a Great and
noble beast ( Deer, Buffalo, Elk, Caribou, Bear and Beaver ). Indians toke
what they needed not what they wanted... If I'm wrong in this thinking I'm
truly Sorry.... I know I'm know back in the time of the Mountain men/
Trapper, but that is the way I think. thank you for your time in reading
this ....
                                Sal______
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams <[e-mail]>
To: '[e-mail]' <[e-mail]>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Response to Heny's Post


Henry,
While I can concur with many of your points, I have to differ with some.
"I" feel the death of the Rendezvous and 'BEAVER' trapping endeavors in the
Rocky Mountains was due to two primary reasons.  First, the change of
fashion brought on by the "NEW " popularity of silk hats rather than the
beaver that had been so fashionable for decades previous.  By 1840 the price
per pound of beaver fur had plummetted from its high just a few short years
earlier.  Second, with so many people after the same commodity (BEAVER), it
was not long before significant sections of the Rockies were denuded of
beaver much as the Pacific West Coast had been depleted of sea otter.
(Astors and many Russian fortunes).  By the 1860's we see the 'robe trade'
making significant depletions in the bison herds eventually bring this
industry to it's demise.  Is this the fur trade?  Yes in it's broadest
definition but very distinct from the Rocky Mountain fur trade.

Another question raised was the image of the free trapper vs the 'company'
man.  In reading biographies of so many of these mountain men, I'm struck
with how many different companies and trapping associations in which these
individuals participated.  Yes, Ashley and Andrew became Ashley and Smith,
then Smith, Sublette and Jackson and then Sublette and Fitzpatrick with Jim
and others thrown in there somewhere and this is just Rocky Mtn Fur Co..  To
and from every Rendezvous, there were numerous comings and goings to and
from civilization.  We see the upstarts like Wyeth and  Bonneville  jumping
in the middle.  My point is, many of these so called companies were no more
than many of the trappers themselves making companies of THEMSELVES.  While
seed monies were definitely needed for many of these upstarts, they were
managed and staffed by those found in the Mountains.  So, free trapper vs
company man, I didn't dispute that most MAY have been company men but I have
a harder time with the Steel Mill analogy.  Yes, there is AFC, HBC and a few
others, but we also see cross employment in these concerns.  I guess what
I'm getting at is that there was a great deal of freedom for these men.

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #235
*******************************

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