ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/hist_text/archive/v01.n196

Internet Message Format | 1998-12-16 | 37KB

From: [e-mail] (hist_text-digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #196
Reply-To: hist_text
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


hist_text-digest      Thursday, December 17 1998      Volume 01 : Number 196




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:54:34 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

No "set-up".  I'm a sincere person wishing for advice.  You were kind
enough to lend yours.  Thank you.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
M. D. Watts

- ----------
> From: Glenn Darilek <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 8:35 PM
>
> Why do I get the impression that I am being set up on this one?
>
> <Opinion starts here> "Firearms, Traps, & Tools of the Mountain Men" by
Carl
> P. Russell.  <Opinion stops here> I have the Seventh Printing, University
of
> New Mexico Press that has 60+ pages on beaver traps and trapping.  That
is
> more than I would ever want to know about beaver traps.
>
> Iron Burner
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marion D. Watts <[e-mail]>
> To: MtMan-List <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 2:33 PM
> Subject: MtMan-List: References to Traps
>
>
> >In the reader's opinion, what is the single best reference to traps used
> >during the Fur Trade era?
> >
> >
> >
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:56:42 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

Thank you Jim.  I'll see if I can Locate "The Steel Trap in North America".
 I believe I saw it offered last year in some trapper supply catalog.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
M. D. Watts

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:19 AM
>
> The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain
Men,"
> by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good.  Also, try "The Steel
Trap
> in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA,
> 1985).  While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel,
> Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps.  Unfortunately,
it's
> out of print and may be harder to access.  Also, the Museum of the Fur
Trade
> in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period.
>
> Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
> P.O. Box 1228
> Quincy, CA  95971
> [phone] (H)
> (530 283-3330 (W)
> [phone] FAX
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:56:42 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

Thank you Jim.  I'll see if I can Locate "The Steel Trap in North America".
 I believe I saw it offered last year in some trapper supply catalog.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
M. D. Watts

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:19 AM
>
> The book mentioned earlier, "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain
Men,"
> by Carl Russell, (Alfred Knopf, NY, 1967) is good.  Also, try "The Steel
Trap
> in Norht America," by Richard Gerstell (Stackpole Books, Harrisburg, PA,
> 1985).  While not focusing as exclusively on the fur trade era as Russel,
> Gerstell provides a very good overall history of traps.  Unfortunately,
it's
> out of print and may be harder to access.  Also, the Museum of the Fur
Trade
> in Chadron NB, has a marvelous collection of traps from the period.
>
> Jim Hardee, AMM#1676
> P.O. Box 1228
> Quincy, CA  95971
> [phone] (H)
> (530 283-3330 (W)
> [phone] FAX
> [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:57:40 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

Thanks Gail & Hardtack
Your most humble and obedient servant,
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
M. D. Watts

- ----------
> From: Gail Carbiener <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:00 AM
>
> It is available at Amazon with 24 hours shipping at $13.56 paperback
issue.
> Gail
> =========================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RANDAL J BUBLITZ <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 9:44 PM
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
>
>
> >Firearms, traps & tools of the Mountain Men, by Carl P. Russell ISBN
> >0-8263-0465-6   hardtack
> >
> >___________________________________________________________________
> >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:47:00 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buckskiner summer camps

The time for these "summer camps" would be during spring breaks, while the
beaver fur is still prime, and the beaver in season.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:42:18 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

In a message dated 98-12-15 20:33:19 EST, you write:

<<  these people had a lifetime of experience with
 cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. >>

Most of the early horse riding in this country was based on the european or
English saddle.  And as many "English" riders know that style was created for
the cavalry which set strick standard.  One of the standards I had DRILLED
into my mind and my body was that in that style of riding the horse and rider
go 4 miles per hour at the walk, 8 miles an hour at the trot and 12 miles an
hour at the canter.  The gallop was the one area for freedom.  So many of the
early travellers may well have estimated distance by the time in the saddle.
Especially as unless you are trying to escape from something or trying to
catch something the normal travelling pace is the walk when leading pack
animals or doing sustained long distance riding.  I know that there are
variations for the size of horse and type of ground being covered but that
would be one way to estimate distances.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:42:18 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mileage

In a message dated 98-12-15 20:33:19 EST, you write:

<<  these people had a lifetime of experience with
 cross-country travel by horse and foot to use. >>

Most of the early horse riding in this country was based on the european or
English saddle.  And as many "English" riders know that style was created for
the cavalry which set strick standard.  One of the standards I had DRILLED
into my mind and my body was that in that style of riding the horse and rider
go 4 miles per hour at the walk, 8 miles an hour at the trot and 12 miles an
hour at the canter.  The gallop was the one area for freedom.  So many of the
early travellers may well have estimated distance by the time in the saddle.
Especially as unless you are trying to escape from something or trying to
catch something the normal travelling pace is the walk when leading pack
animals or doing sustained long distance riding.  I know that there are
variations for the size of horse and type of ground being covered but that
would be one way to estimate distances.

Your Humble Servant

C.T. Oakes

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:55:12 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

There is much knowledge to be found on this subject with trap collectors.  You
might start trying to locate them and the answer to other "Trap" questions by
contacting the National Trappers Assn. at [e-mail]
http://www.nationaltrappers.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:43:34 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks

Fellow group members,

May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back to
some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all about.
Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle is
best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to their
Wives and Daughters!

For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy and
respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally takes
over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
then.

As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take the
time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
personal comments  posted to the whole group.

Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, traps
etc...that's what we're about.

Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:03:33 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps

I'm a member of the NTA and appreciate your advice.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
M. D. Watts

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: References to Traps
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:55 AM
>
> There is much knowledge to be found on this subject with trap collectors.
 You
> might start trying to locate them and the answer to other "Trap"
questions by
> contacting the National Trappers Assn. at [e-mail]
> http://www.nationaltrappers.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:34:42 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS....

Leaving on Monday for the COLD midwest... Omaha, Nebraska... to spend
Christmas with my inlaws.

Wanted to wish everyone out there a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a wonderful
and prosperous 1999.

Also, to thank one and all for allowing all of us to be here and to share in
the vast amount of information each of us can contribute.  Ain't modern
technology wonderful?

A quick joke before I leave... *grin*... bear with me...

A few years ago, three men were discussing what each thought the most
wonderful advancement  was in technology.

One said... "Oh, by all means it is the telephone.  I can talk to anyone,
anywhere, anytime I chose."

The scond said... "No, no... it's the televison.  You can see what is
happening at any time, anywhere in the world, as it is happening!"

The third man chuckles and says... "You are both wrong... the most wonderful
thing in modern technology is the Thermos bottle."

Agast, the other two look at him and say..." The Thermos??  You have GOT to
be kidding... All it does is keep hot things hot, and cold things cold..."

The third man smiles back and says..." Yes!! But... HOW DO IT KNOW???"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:48:12 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

>> Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was
>> referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit
>> Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across
>> the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different
>> from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff......

That's because it is NOT typical mountain man stuff.  Carson was as much a
product of the Southwest fur trade as the Rocky Mtn rendezvous theater.
His first western experience was in a Santa Fe trade caravan in 1826.  His
heart was always more oriented toward the Southwest.  His style of clothing
often reflected that.

>What year was this jacket collected from? If it was from mid to late in the
>1800's then it may not be representative of what Kit and others wore in the
>field.

It's closer to mid 1800s (Kit died in 1868)

>> The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means
>> cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on
>> the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the
>> area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His
>> buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white
>> buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but
>> unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for
>> you.
>
>I think I have seen jackets like this in pictures or other museums but cool or
>not is it what was worn on the frontier in the early 1800's? I personally
>suspect not.

Indeed, it was.  There were multiple "frontiers" back then, not just one.
Cut-outs as illustrated in the Carson jacket were quite common in the
American Southwestern frontier (technically called the "Spanish
Borderlands").  Kit Carson's jacket, which, I believe dates from the
1840s-50s, is stylistically typical of the period (perhaps earlier) in the
Southwest.  The Spanish cultures had wonderful style and taste in personal
adornment, much more outwardly visual than their conservative Anglo
counterparts.  The borderlands were not originally an Anglo frontier, but
was a frontier nevertheless, and an integral part of the western story and
transcends beyond the rendezvous era.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:10:16 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions

I believe broom straw that you are speaking of is actually not straw but
broom corn tops if i am not mistaken---the corn tops are harvisted just
as the corn is---

have seen them make brooms there myself and they do a good job---a bit
pricy when they sell them.  they now buy commercial grown tops and not as
it was when silver doller city first opened---they got their straw from
"School of the ozarks"  which is a school that allowd the students to
work for their tuition and that was a way to produce income for the
students.

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:20:09 EST [e-mail] writes:
>Broom straw is grown.  I have seen craftsmen making brooms at Silver
>Dollar
>City in Branson, MO during their craft festivile during the entire
>month of
>Oct.
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:15:34 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks

My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list.  I'm a
new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette.  Your understanding is
appreciated.
Your most humble and obedient servant,
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
M. D. Watts

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:43 AM
>
> Fellow group members,
>
> May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back
to
> some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all
about.
> Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle
is
> best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to
their
> Wives and Daughters!
>
> For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy
and
> respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
> dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally
takes
> over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
> then.
>
> As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
> historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
> comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take
the
> time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
> personal comments  posted to the whole group.
>
> Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage,
traps
> etc...that's what we're about.
>
> Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!
>
> Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:14:37 -0600
From: John Kramer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments

At 05:51 PM 12/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
.....the only other real option was alum tanning).
>
>Matt Richards
>

Except for oil tanning, egg tanning, urine tanning, buttermilk tanning, sour
milk tanning, arsenic tanning and acid tanning.

Birch bark as well as oak bark was used for differing leathers and extensive
use of lime and saltpeter was called for in many old tanning receipts.

There are specific receipts for differing hides including goat, sheep, and
etc.  Many techniques were recorded for specific types of leather such as
Russian and Morocco.  I also have found receipts for converting parchment into
leather.

Prior to 1840 there was a significant hide and tallow trade out of
California.
In 1838 an estimated 200,000 cow hides were shipped to Boston alone.  The beef
was considered a byproduct and much of it was burned as waste.

Calf skins were commonly greased with equal quantities of cod-liver oil and
tallow, called dubbing, after bark tanning.

There are many old receipts for the coloring (dyeing) of leather including
brown, blue, red, purple, green, yellow, and orange not to mention the
ubiquitous black.

I overheard a discussion years ago that declared brain tan was actually the
"dressing" of skins and not a true tanning.  I don't remember the particulars
but, wonder if you've encountered this distinction in your research.

John...
Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.
John Kramer  <[e-mail]>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:15:24 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John C Funk)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Braintan & Buff Robes and Smoke???

Reginald and Gladys Laubin have written extensive information in their
book "THE INDIAN TIPI" regarding the fabrication of buffalo hide tipis as
well as the use of the "old" leather once the tipi was recycled.  As I
recall, the female buff. was primarily used due to the hide being
somewhat lighter in weight that the male hide.  Mocs were made from the
upper flap areas which had received the heavier smoking.

John Funk

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:55:23 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Marion D. Watts)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions

I'm not sure that this will be of help to anyone concerning brooms, but
being from the deep south and growing up in a rather "plain living" life
style, I was acquainted with several ladies that made their own brooms, as
their mothers before them had.  They were fashioned from sage grass.

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Some questions
> Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 12:10 PM
>
> I believe broom straw that you are speaking of is actually not straw but
> broom corn tops if i am not mistaken---the corn tops are harvisted just
> as the corn is---
>
> have seen them make brooms there myself and they do a good job---a bit
> pricy when they sell them.  they now buy commercial grown tops and not as
> it was when silver doller city first opened---they got their straw from
> "School of the ozarks"  which is a school that allowd the students to
> work for their tuition and that was a way to produce income for the
> students.
>
> "HAWK"
> Michael pierce
> 854 Glenfield Dr.
> Palm Harbor Florida  34684
> E-mail:   [e-mail]
>
> On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:20:09 EST [e-mail] writes:
> >Broom straw is grown.  I have seen craftsmen making brooms at Silver
> >Dollar
> >City in Branson, MO during their craft festivile during the entire
> >month of
> >Oct.
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:48:12 -0600 (CST)
From: [e-mail] (Henry B. Crawford)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Clothing and Materials

>> Good to hear your thoughts. The items I've seen in museums that I was
>> referring to, are not reproductions, but originals. One example is Kit
>> Carson's original buckskin pants and jacket in Taos NM (in a gallery across
>> the street from the Kit Carson Museum). It is stylistically very different
>> from 'typical' Mtn Man stuff......

That's because it is NOT typical mountain man stuff.  Carson was as much a
product of the Southwest fur trade as the Rocky Mtn rendezvous theater.
His first western experience was in a Santa Fe trade caravan in 1826.  His
heart was always more oriented toward the Southwest.  His style of clothing
often reflected that.

>What year was this jacket collected from? If it was from mid to late in the
>1800's then it may not be representative of what Kit and others wore in the
>field.

It's closer to mid 1800s (Kit died in 1868)

>> The Jacket had 'cut-outs' which means
>> cuts are made in the solid buckskin to form a pattern. This isn't done on
>> the edge, but within the main body of the buckskin. His were done in the
>> area next to the buttons on one side and the button holes on the other. His
>> buckskins were fairly dark golden smoked, and behind the cut-outs was white
>> buckskin, that showed through quite dramatically. It was really cool, but
>> unlike anything else I'd ever seen. I wish I had a picture I could post for
>> you.
>
>I think I have seen jackets like this in pictures or other museums but cool or
>not is it what was worn on the frontier in the early 1800's? I personally
>suspect not.

Indeed, it was.  There were multiple "frontiers" back then, not just one.
Cut-outs as illustrated in the Carson jacket were quite common in the
American Southwestern frontier (technically called the "Spanish
Borderlands").  Kit Carson's jacket, which, I believe dates from the
1840s-50s, is stylistically typical of the period (perhaps earlier) in the
Southwest.  The Spanish cultures had wonderful style and taste in personal
adornment, much more outwardly visual than their conservative Anglo
counterparts.  The borderlands were not originally an Anglo frontier, but
was a frontier nevertheless, and an integral part of the western story and
transcends beyond the rendezvous era.

HBC

*****************************************
Henry B. Crawford        Curator of History
[e-mail]     Museum of Texas Tech University
806/742-2442           Box 43191
FAX [phone]             Lubbock, TX  79409-3191
               WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum
******  Living History . . . Because it's there!  *******

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:15:26 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS....

addison---
have a safe trip and may the christmas spirit follow you on your trip and
may you have a prosperous and wonderful new year---hope to see you at the
alifi---will only be coming to see friends and not to participate or be
around the green frog skin groping groop.

"HAWK"
Michael pierce
854 Glenfield Dr.
Palm Harbor Florida  34684
E-mail:   [e-mail]

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:34:42 -0500 "Addison Miller" <[e-mail]>
writes:
>Leaving on Monday for the COLD midwest... Omaha, Nebraska... to spend
>Christmas with my inlaws.
>
>Wanted to wish everyone out there a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS, and a
>wonderful
>and prosperous 1999.
>
>Also, to thank one and all for allowing all of us to be here and to
>share in
>the vast amount of information each of us can contribute.  Ain't
>modern
>technology wonderful?
>
>A quick joke before I leave... *grin*... bear with me...
>
>A few years ago, three men were discussing what each thought the most
>wonderful advancement  was in technology.
>
>One said... "Oh, by all means it is the telephone.  I can talk to
>anyone,
>anywhere, anytime I chose."
>
>The scond said... "No, no... it's the televison.  You can see what is
>happening at any time, anywhere in the world, as it is happening!"
>
>The third man chuckles and says... "You are both wrong... the most
>wonderful
>thing in modern technology is the Thermos bottle."
>
>Agast, the other two look at him and say..." The Thermos??  You have
>GOT to
>be kidding... All it does is keep hot things hot, and cold things
>cold..."
>
>The third man smiles back and says..." Yes!! But... HOW DO IT KNOW???"
>
>
>
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:43:34 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks

Fellow group members,

May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back to
some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all about.
Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle is
best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to their
Wives and Daughters!

For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy and
respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally takes
over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
then.

As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take the
time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
personal comments  posted to the whole group.

Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage, traps
etc...that's what we're about.

Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!

Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:28:50 -0800
From: "Mike Katona" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe

unsubscribe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:58:03 -0500
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks

Etiquette??? what etiquette?  I didn't know we had any.  Thought this sight was
guided by freedoms of speech,  who had knowledge, big brass ones,  choices to
stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing the
first punch.

Linda Holley

"Marion D. Watts" wrote:

> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list.  I'm a
> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette.  Your understanding is
> appreciated.
> Your most humble and obedient servant,
> [e-mail]
> [e-mail]
> M. D. Watts
>
> ----------
> > From: [e-mail]
> > To: [e-mail]
> > Subject: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks
> > Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:43 AM
> >
> > Fellow group members,
> >
> > May I say what a relief and pleasure it is to have recently gotten back
> to
> > some good historical based discussions. That's what this group is all
> about.
> > Not arguing and attacking each other and taking offense over which rifle
> is
> > best etc. And certainly not telling someone what you intend to do to
> their
> > Wives and Daughters!
> >
> > For almost three years I've hung out here learning and have come to enjoy
> and
> > respect the opinions of many of you. Unfortunately some of the best have
> > dropped off the list due to the large amount of drivel that occasionally
> takes
> > over. I'm not sure Dean had any idea what kind of monster he created back
> > then.
> >
> > As long as we remember the basic parameters of the group (sharing of
> > historical information and ideas) then all seems to go well. Many of the
> > comments are best suited for private mail, not for the whole group. Take
> the
> > time to respond directly to individuals rather than thanking or making
> > personal comments  posted to the whole group.
> >
> > Once again, discussions of late on fabric, clothing patterns, mileage,
> traps
> > etc...that's what we're about.
> >
> > Thanks for your time and comments and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!
> >
> > Todd Glover

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 01:48:07 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: MtMan-List: cutouts on clothing

Matt
  The cutouts, or"pinkings and piercings", was predominately a
southwestern addition to clothing styles.  Many examples of Mexican and
Commanche leather goods have patterns cut through an outer cover with
leather or cloth to back with.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:24:14 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Dennis Miles)
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks

So THAT'S why I haven't been tossed off the list yet.. Well I'll be didilly
damned!!<G>

Dennis

   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
          DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
- -----Original Message-----
From: Linda Holley <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Releif, gratitude, thanks


>Etiquette??? what etiquette?  I didn't know we had any.  Thought this sight
was
>guided by freedoms of speech,  who had knowledge, big brass ones,  choices
to
>stick your foot in your mouth and who could run the fastest after throwing
the
>first punch.
>
>Linda Holley
>
>"Marion D. Watts" wrote:
>
>> My apologies to all for showing individual gratitude on the list.  I'm a
>> new comer, thus not aware of proper etiquette.  Your understanding is
>> appreciated.
>> Your most humble and obedient servant,
>> [e-mail]
>> [e-mail]
>> M. D. Watts
>>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:45:22 -0700
From: "Matt Richards" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period tanning / Alans comments

Johns reply to my comment of not knowing of any other period tanning methods
besides bark, brain, oil and alum was:

Except for oil tanning, egg tanning, urine tanning, buttermilk tanning, sour
>milk tanning, arsenic tanning and acid tanning.
>

I guess a lot has to do with how we define our terms. The term 'brain
tanning' did not exist to my knowledge before modern times. The accepted way
(among the leather industry) of defining tanning terms is based on how the
actual chemical change is affected on the leather. If something actually
changes the collagen proteins of the skin, permanently, it is a 'tanning'
agent.

I am well aware that there was an incredibly wide variety of substances used
and substituted in various tanning recipes throughout the ancient
world....but often it is still considered the same method of tanning. From
the example above 'sour milk tanning, buttermilk tanning, and egg tanning'
are generally considered the same thing as 'brain tanning' as they affect
the leather in the same way. Soap tanning does too. Oil tanning is a
different process because the fish oils (usually cod) oxidize extremely
easily, and in this oxidation they create polymers which change the collagen
fibers of the skin. You can not wash out the effects of true 'oil tans'
There is actually reasonable speculation that this type of tanning was being
done by many native tribes in the northwest, and was clearly done by
Europeans of this era on many of the deerskins that were exported to that
continent. Oil tanning is a term that is commonly thrown around by people
any time an oil is added to the tanning mix, not really knowing what it
means.

As far as urine tanning goes, I'd love to see some evidence of this. I've
met one man so far, who claims to have actually seen someone 'urine tan' and
he has described it to me in detail....so I'm gonna try it. But for the most
part, it seems to be a term that is thrown around, with little real basis.
Urine was commonly used by NW Coast and Arctic people to strip the oils out
of skins that were otherwise just too dang oily to do anything with, but not
as a 'tanning' agent.

And while there were many, many sources of tannins for bark tanning, its
still just considered bark tanning. The hides you are referring too that
were sent from San Franciso to Boston, were destined for bark tanneries (and
soon a huge bark tanning industry developed in California based on Tan Oak).

Lime and saltpeter were both used in many traditional tanning methods, but
neither is a 'tanning' agent, and wouldn't be known as 'lime tan' or
anything like that. Lime was used in the first recorded account of Comanche
brain tanning, and is standard in chrome tanning and bark tanning.

As far as arsenic and acid (besides tannic) tans go, these are modern
methods as far as I know. Do you know of any references to these being done
during or before the period we are talking about?


You asked what I thought of the comments about brain tanning being a
dressing rather than a true tanning.....

I do not know what the accepted definition of tanning was back in the early
1800's, but in modern times, 'tanning' occurs when the protein fibers
(collagen) are permanently changed in their composition, so that the skin
can never go back to rawhide. Brains do not do this, unless they do a very,
very, weak oil tan (by oxidizing).....and I think it is more accurate to
call it a dressing (experimenting with, I have successfully completely
removed all of the effects of the braining by putting a brained and softened
hide in a running creek for three days....all of the tactilely discernable
effects of the brains were gone, it was rawhide again)....however smoke does
tan a hide.

Smoke contains a gaseous form of formaldehyde which is why it preserves
stuff (and one reason that it is carcinogenic). It causes the collagen
proteins to form new links to one another at different points on the protein
chain (this is all in leather chemistry books if anyone is real interested I
could give you some good titles). In graphic terms, it causes the fibers to
form little bridges between one another that are permanent. You can not wash
out the effects of the smoke....the color will wash out, but not the
'tanning'. It'd be more accurate if we all referred to it as 'smoke tanning'
and 'brain dressing' like some folks do....but the term 'brain tanning' is
popular and here to stay.

As a side note, 'Alum Tanning' is not generally accepted as a 'true' tanning
method, because the affects can be easily washed out. That is one reason it
is generally referred to as 'Tawing' rather than tanning.

A great book on ancient tanning methods and recipes from throughout the
world, with excellent yet understandable explanations of the chemistry and
related processes is 'Ancient Skins, Parchments, and Leathers' by Ronald
Reed. It also talks about the conversion of parchments to leathers that you
were referring too.

Matt Richards
www.braintan.com

------------------------------

End of hist_text-digest V1 #196
*******************************

-
 To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to
"[e-mail]"
 with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.
 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.